http://dbd.game/killswitch
How are strong pallets justified?
A common talking point I have heard in this game for years is that killers who can guarantee a hit or have answers at strong loops are “uninteractive.” Yet no one ever seems to point out that god loops are completely uninteractive for many killers. This seems like a major double standard. Imo, tiles that allow mindgames for both sides should be standard.
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It may surprise you to learn that some things are NOT equivalent in an asymmetrical game. However, I do think your point has some potential to be interesting, so here we go.
There are very few god loops left, most of which are fairly universally agreed to be unfair. Badham House of Pain and Garden of Joy's main building come to mind, perhaps a Haddonfield House, depending on RNG and the Killer.
However, I suspect you have a MUCH broader definition of god loop. Is that accurate?
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A god loop is anything that the killer is forced to break and can’t mindgame. Jungle gyms are a common example, with some outlier killers that can make plays on them. The only time I get hit there as a survivor is if I have a total brain fart. And yes I understand it’s asym, but shouldn’t the killer have an advantage in the chase for that reason? It’s 1v4.
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Ah, yes, I thought as much.
I am gonna take a really wild guess. Is the T-L the best structure in the game to you?
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The two aren’t even remotely comparable. A t-l wall is a 50/50 guess. A jungle gym has a pallet that severely limits the killer’s mindgames. A hit isn’t happening unless they can turn off the glow or teleport like spirit.
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Killers that I have been able to reliably get HITS with at jungle gyms:
Wraith, Doc, Huntress, Nurse, Spirit, Legion, Oni, Demogorgon, Pyramid Head, Blight, Twins, Nemesis, Pinhead, Artist, Wesker, Knight and Alien.
Most of those Killers will disappear if you play against comp teams, but even still, I did manage to beat up a few back in the day using Blight and Wesker.
Survivors do need safe structures. Jungle Gyms are reliable and decently strong, but not impervious. I have mindgamed MANY Survivors on the short-wall of the jungle gym. The game cannot be an entire match of 50/50 TL's. Nor can it be ######### filler pallets that you get hit at unless you stun the Killer.
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Ah, yes.
*swirls scotch*
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Then why am I safe 99% of the time at those tiles as survivor? You listed half the roster, which still leaves the other half of killers who can do absolutely nothing at that tile. Why can’t most pallets be a 50/50? What’s so wrong with the survivors actually having to mindgame instead of being guaranteed safety?
I win the vast majority of my killer matches. When I lose, the formula is pretty much the same: they hear me coming, they get a huge head start, and even if I’m able to start the chase, instant safe pallet drop. All pallets should have a mind game.
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Sorry :(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((
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Likely because you're better than the vast majority of your opponents. And before you deny it, there are different aspects to skill.
I'm not mechanically gifted, I have poor eyesight and one ear doesn't work well. However, I know human behavior and I can play macro extremely well, and that allows me to be "better" than most of my opponents.
What is, in your opinion, an ideal pallet?
And, conversely, what pallets/loop structures would you want to see removed.
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I think Hawkins is a pretty good setup. There are two strong rooms (but not oppressive) and a bunch of pallets you can mindgame. The Game in general needs a drastic rework, as do most of the breakable walls since they tend to favor survivor. TL walls are perfect to me since, even if I miss or get hit, it pretty much comes down to me being read. I don’t mind losing like that, but I do mind structures that are essentially safe zones.
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1 or 2 god pallets aren't an issue. It sucks that you have to break them with no way to play around them (other than a few niche scenarios) but once they're gone, they're gone. Meaning, the strongest resources of the map are used up and you only have to care about the rest of the (hopefully) weaker pallets.
However, I very much agree, that a good portion of all structures are not very interactive from a killer's POV. No matter what you do, you can't get a hit anyway, so why even bother mind gaming? This is the case with some of the pallets on the Azarov maps, some main buildings, shack, jungle gyms, the excavator on Ormond and more. In these cases, you'll find most killers without oppressive chase powers simply running after you with not much thought put into it because it's more efficient than spending time on a mind game, that won't work anyway.
However, you also need some of these busted loops because inexperienced survivors can't play around the more fair structures (like TL walls). And if they get hit on every loop, then obviously, they won't have fun and no incentive to improve. After all, why would you play a game that is not enjoyable? This would dramatically decrease the appeal for newer players.
This is quite the dilemma, honestly. In low MMR, this is just fine. But the higher you go, the more problematic it becomes.
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Somebody may show me those god loops. They hide from me so well, i cant find them since 2021.
Almost every single map is full of 50/50s and very bad filler palets. Complaining as a killer that palets/windows/loops are safe nowadays is a little bit absurd. I would argue that we need more safe pallets at this point.
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I can’t get behind that mentality. I learned this game by playing and losing a lot. You can’t occasionally play a pvp game and expect to do well against people who know the game.
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What you are talking here are regular jungle gyms?!
Just break the pallet. Many maps come with 3-4 jungle gyms + shack, and the chance of getting a safe gym (Long wall & short wall) is very low. More often then not you get 4 lan walls (unsafe), TLs (unsafe), Ormond Tile (unsafe with not amazing ping), Maze tile (i am not even talking about that), or other crap like double window tile.
So many maps come with a really low amount of palets or loops in general. I have counted on multible diferent maps an average of 9.5 palets. And those had really bad filler in it and almost no decent window beside those on specific gyms.
Last but not least. Look at the killer roster. Many simply counter any kind of loop. They have strong anti loop powers.
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Thing about god pallets, is you break the pallet, and it no longer exists. It costs you one chase, maybe even just 20-30 seconds of a chase, and then you have the rest of the game without it.
Killers with anti-loop or chase powers, have those powers for the entire game. They don't use them once and that's it, one instant down and gone.
So as Pulsar said, not comparable.
Pallets exist to slow down the killer and buy some time. They're finite, and some are stronger than others. That's simply how the game is balanced, survivors get limited resources to buy as much time as possible, and it's up to them to use thosr resources wisely, skillfully. God pallets are the freebie, the one guaranteed chase extender to give survivors regardless of skill level a fighting chance, the other pallets take more skill to use.
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Oh, that is not at all what I was trying to say. If you know the game, then what are you doing in low MMR?
It's just that in low MMR killers have the upper hand. Easily. Because the overall skill floor for killers is quite a bit lower than that for survivors. Even just running around, breaking every pallet, vaulting most windows and getting the occasional down is more than enough to dominate a group of players, that have their fair bit of trouble even hitting skill checks, finding gens, knowing when to commit to a gen (instead of hiding every time they hear the TR), stealthing everywhere, not running into each other, giving free hits and going into lockers. If you make maps weaker too, this quickly leads to a bunch more easy hits for killers and more losses for beginner survivors even against beginner killers.
There are just way more opportunities for survivors to make mistakes (4 >> 1). And in low MMR these add up rather quickly. The killer will eventually find survivors because they know where to look. They will also get a down eventually by just running after the survivor because that is how the game is balanced. Breaking pallets isn't something that you need put any thought into either. But this is already enough to stomp 4 beginners.
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I don’t feel that pallets are that limited though. There are more than enough to last the match. 20-30 seconds can easily be the difference between winning and losing. In fact, I think that a lot of killer wins are the result of survivors trying to be too cute in conserving pallets when they could have just pre dropped.
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the only map where there are many god pallets is gideon and for some reason that map's problems are forgotten by the devs so. otherwise the issue with other problematic maps like eyrie garden and badham isn't really the god pallets but rather the connectivity of tiles. god pallets are uninteractive, but there already aren't many of them on maps other than gideon.
edit: god windows are common though which isn't a depletable resource and i think that's more of a problem than god pallets. and another point, a standard map imo should have stronger and weaker areas so all the tiles shouldn't be a 50/50 loop.
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If we are gonna remove all decent loops and make them mind-gameable all top tier killers will get good nerfs for make them balanced because even now, with these strong loops they are doing so fine.
And ofcourse, Bloodlust exists as well. If we are gonna make it whoever played better type loops, then this mechanic need to go as well. Survivor should not be punished when killer lost all mind-games and played poorly.
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I’d have no problem with killer adjustments and blood lust if the loops were rebalanced.
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I think the reason the game has much jank, is that even though there are ridiculous loops and resources for survivors, somehow survivors seem to end up dead more often than they escape. God pallets kind of suck for killer, but it can be a life saver for a survivor with less than optimal pathing. I can't imagine how most survivors would do if every loop needed a stun to be safe. I'd imagine kill rates would soar.
All of the variables that survivor players experience as a result of being a team, seems to be enough to keep kill rates where BHVR wants them. It's hard to balance things when one side is both the strongest role in the game, whilst also being the weakest.
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"ridiculous loops"
where?
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I mean, yeah. Why not do both? That would make the game more interesting and skillful for both sides.
Every pallet/structure should be mindgameable by every killer, and also deadzones and "wasted resources" should not be possible (perhaps pallets respawn?) you get my point.
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While you are right, i thing most people who play occasionally dont expect to be paired against people who know the game well. But since the game prefers short queue times over fair matches, thats what you get. Thats one of the flaws of the matchmaking design, not of the players.
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Shack, jungle gyms, trash tiles on Azarov, triangle car tiles on Azarov, Coldwind long tiles, Midwich pallet near the stairs, 95% of all pallets on The Game, GoJ main building pallet. Just to name a few. All of them have to be destroyed immediately because mind games around them (often even in bloodlust tier 3) don't work.
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I had the same discussion some months ago.
Some tiles are downright unfair for m1 killers and reduce them to literal chase-bots that just brute force a pallet against good survivors.
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Name 1 map besides The Game.
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How are you still complaining when they are literally destroying every map (Borgo, Rancid Abbatoir, Temple of Purgation...) getting rid of strong tiles/loops and replacing them with disgusting/unsafe pallets that the killers refuse to break and start running around like ants exploiting the bloodlust.
They should instead add more safe pallets/windows in the maps because they are missing right now.
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I think every map should have a least 1 god pallet (aka shack for most maps) there should be safe pallets and strong pallets. Once a pallet is gone it's gone forever and survivors need these resources to survive so ofc there needs to be some really strong ones while also making weak ones that killers have an opportunity to bloodlust or mindgame at.
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GoJ is getting already nerfed.
Eyrie. Filled with deadzones. Strong palets are on top of main and in shack. Rest is either filler or rng based Gyms. 13 palets on average with the vast maroity being mediocre is not exactly a lot. Far from littered.
Badham has 2 in main, 1 in shack and 2 in houses. I would not call this "littered" aswell.
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Every shack is a ridiculous loop. You can waste minutes with just one pallet and a window.
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reliably get hits on jungle gyms as legion? I think there is difference between getting hits because the survivor is playing bad and does not know how to use the tile properly vs the killer getting hits because the killer wins a particular mindgame. M1 legion should not be getting downs at dropped jungle gym pallets. that is learn to play issue.
I agree with your position. the main survivors that win are survivor that pre-run properly away from generators to run-forward and the survivor that optimize loops in such a way that it makes said pallets safe. in an ideal dbd, the killer should not be breaking pallets, only going around them and mindgaming slides to get a 50/50. It is just historically, dbd has had more safe loops then unsafe loops so killer got used to breaking pallets due to loop design in the game.
the strong killer balance the strong loop design in the game. they either do that by making the super strong pallet into non-instant break or they break pallet but create a mindgame between the loop. it is debatable in what context killer anti-loop is fair vs unfair but general idea killers with good chase capacity can handle maps with 5 jungle gyms on every map. Bloodlust itself is somewhat of a problematic mechanic because it doesn't help weak killer mindgame safe jungle gym pallets but it progressively grants guaranteed hits at weak pallets where killer does not not need help.
i disagree. every single god pallet/safe pallet that killer is forced to break is an issue. this is because survivor can use early safe god pallets as means to delay killer in early game with no counter-play. The result is that killer loses 3 generators in first chase because survivor ran to the 1-2 safe god pallets on the map and held-w after pallet break. a common request by killer is to add corrupt intervention base-kit but issue is not objective. it is god pallets that allow said objective to be rushed because killer cannot change outcome in early game when the survivor's first impulse is to run to god pallets/safe loops.
this is also why some people have said to nerf "Window of Opportunity". the problem is that nerfing window will not change the fact that those pallet are there. survivor will still run to these pallets regardless whether window of opportunity exists or not. As a result, my opinion is that safe loops and god pallet are responsible for killer's bad early game.
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Minutes?
Hours!
...
Please be realistic. If you cant catch a survivor in less then a minute at shack, its time to watch a guide.
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"New" Garden of Joy is literally unchanged from what we currently have lmfao
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How in the world do you get a hit on a jungle gym as Wraith? I'm genuinely curious. Even with 2 uncloak speed addons you're still way too slow for the survivor to not either make it to the pallet or window before you can hit them. If you know something I don't, I'd be very interested in hearing that.
Playing M1 killer around a jungle gym should not work either because there are 3 safe spots where the survivor can simply wait and watch out for the killer. If that survivor cannot do that, then that is not an issue with the tile but with their own lack of knowledge / experience / patience.
All of the killers you mentioned, besides Wraith, have something in common. They have very oppressive chase powers. Nurse will hit you anywhere. You could have 1000 pallets and 800 windows and she still would get her hits. Try that on any other killer. Blight to a degree is in a very similar position. When Legion has their power, you're gonna get hit, no matter what too. So against these killers, there is pretty much no such thing as a god pallet. Because in theory they could hit anywhere. Even in shack.
I'm not sure what exactly you are trying to say with this list of strong anti-loop killers. Because the issue remains. Many killers have no choice but to brute force their way through. Which is neither fun for the killer nor the survivor as far as I can tell because both don't need to use their brains when that happens. So the interactive part is actually not all that interactive.
I agree, that we can't remove all strong loops from a map but with many maps as stacked as they are, I am of the opinion, that we would either need to decrease the amount of resources or replace them with weaker / more fair versions in these cases. You can't have your cake and eat it too, as they say. The alternative is to rework every killer with weak / mediocre chase powers or buff them in that regard. But how exactly do you do that without making them a pain to go against?
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I agree, that we can't remove all strong loops from a map but with many maps as stacked as they are, I am of the opinion, that we would either need to decrease the amount of resources or replace them with weaker / more fair versions in these cases. You can't have your cake and eat it too, as they say. The alternative is to rework every killer with weak / mediocre chase powers or buff them in that regard. But how exactly do you do that without making them a pain to go against?
killer with strong chase powers can handle unfair loops so those pallets that are fair for them should still stay same and keep spawning. they do not need a buff. the killer that are forced break such pallets could instead not have those tiles spawn when they are selected. a variation of the loop could spawn that is weaker for those killers.[nerf survivor]
alternatively, you could buff all m1 killer to have like faster lunges and coup the grace base-kit so there is more opportunity to mindgame those pallets by making check spots less safe but now your balancing the standard loop as everything as long-wall jungle gym pallet. [Buff m1 killers]
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you'll notice I did not say downs. I said hits.
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I play Nurse, so shack isn't really a problem when I play killer. But as survivor I can waste a lot of time at shack. Not to mention better survivor players who can get more value from it than I can.
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God loops are just as bad as short loops imo.
Virtually nothing the killer can do at a god loop and virtually nothing the survivor can do at a short loop.
On 50/50's there's PvP. On short/god loops, it's like taking turns winning.
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You block the pallet.
That's gotten me hits against a lot of really good Survivors, mostly because it's usually so close that they commit to it.
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Having a map spawn 4 long wall jungle gyms with a shack and a dumb main building are still pretty common.
This is where RNG is a problem. Sometimes you can have maps spawn 4 jungle gyms, other times you get for 4 TL walls. When really it should be more spread out. Imagine a square map like this:
This would be the ideal map layout basically.
You put something like a strong main building in the red circle, then the green circle is a shack, so they are opposite each other. Then you have a pallet gym in the yellow circle and a maybe a jungle gym in the blue circle.. Then each of the squares are your junk tiles and TL walls and 4 lanes. Basically, you have a couple of stronger structures, and then between them are the weaker ones.
The big problem though is, sometimes you can have a map like the above spawn and everything is relatively fine.
Other times you can end up with shack into jungle gym with the windows facing each other into a main building into another jungle gym. And with setups like that you just can't possibly win as a killer unless the survivors throw hard.
Then on the other side, you can have no strong structures spawn and you get main building into TL wall into Junk tile into TL wall into shack into deadzone into TL wall into another deadzone where basically half the map has nothing and you just die immediately.
This is why in general i think they either:
A) Do away with RNG spawns entirely and make every map work like Dead dog.
B) Normalize the RNG so that you always get the exact same number of pallets and the strong structures aren't able to spawn next to other strong structures.
Post edited by Reinami on3 -
I assume you block it from the outside. If you are inside the jungle gym, there should be no way they don't get to the window before you can hit them. Still this seems like a pretty blatant misplay on the survivor's end and not all that hard to avoid. Although it might be one of these instances where you just don't expect it and make the wrong play because of that.
Thank you for explaining that.
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I think it works with Wraith because he's hard to see. You can get a general idea of where he's at, but not a perfect one. Most players will just assume they make it to the pallet.
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Which is why I think 50/50 loops should be the standard. I have yet to hear a good argument as to how god loops are good design. I can only assume it’s because they want oppressive gameplay.
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killers have interaction by forcing survivors to use their good pallets, thus reducing the number of good pallets still left on the map. survivors cannot force killers to reduce the number of guaranteed hits available
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Wait what? Which maps are full of 50/50s and bad filler pallets? The only maps I can think of are Hawkins and Dead Dawg Saloon.
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those are some lil hot takes right there. first, those maps don't have god pallets all around but they have strong safe pallets (which the person above claimed), A BUNCH of them.
goj is basically the same, main i think didn't change at all besides a breakable door forcing you to use another god window instead of the dining room one. 2 loops changed the truck one in front of main and the fence one, and they are basically another objects of same size.
eyrie? dead zones? okayyy, that's a take i guess. they didn't reduce the pallet count when they shrunk the map. that should tell everything you need about dead zones or whatever.
i won't even explain why badhams are not balanced maps.
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