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Tunnelling is a Joke!
Ok so to start with, I’ve been playing DBD for the past week and all matches I’ve encountered tunnelling Killers. Even when one gen has been done! the fact that killers moan as an excuse by saying that survivors are being toxic. As long as the killers are happy right!
Comments
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Tunneling isn't toxic and killing survivors is kind of the role of the killer.
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A lot of killers try to tunnel out the "weakest link" right away so that they can get pressure since losing a teammate permanently at the start of a match is actually gonna make the game easier for the killer which is sorta needed a lot of the time with how fast the gens progress compared to killer regression without Pain Resonance or Pop Goes The Weasel.
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Gen efficiency with 4 Survivors is better then 3
With 4 Survivors:
1 being chased
3 on Gens (either separate or together)
OR
1 being chased
1 fallowing
2 on Gens (either separate or together)
With 3 Survivors:
1 being chased
2 on Gens (either separate or together)
OR
1 being chassed
1 fallowing
1 on Gens
Plus some of the resources will be used
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The OP never said that nore said anything like that?
To your offtopic arguement: Yes, killing the survivor is the killers role. Tunneling is a choice. To put it mildly, a very unpleasent choice for everyone else.
Post edited by xEa on7 -
Anyone else suffering from Schrodinger's Decisive Strike? Simultaneously a perk and not a perk at the same time? When you take it, you don't get tunneled, whenever you don't take it, the Killer comes for you specifically like you owe him money...
I just had 2 games back to back, where I saw on my HUD the Killer found and ran past 3 of my teammates, got the wiggles and everything... and kept dropping chase until he found me...
I dunno who's cereal I spat in, but I actually managed to loop them both times through 2-3 gens, but it didn't matter, they we all over me like a Fat Cat on a pack of Dreamies. 🤣🤣🤣
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Some people want to get tunneled.
Also, ruining the survivors fun > ruining the killers fun?
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Time to slap that perk on again!!!
If your theory is right, we should never get tunneled ever again.
That's worth a try in my book.
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So what you say is that the killer can only have fun by tunneling?
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No.
Tunneling = doing the objective as fast as possible.
That means the killer tries to kill a survivor as fast as possible. This implies 3 hooks = one survivor out.
Same can be said for games where gens just fly because survivors spread out and crank out gens as efficiently as possible.
Both playstyles are very unfun for the other side.
But only one is generally seen as "bad".
This is what I meant.
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Tunneling only shows that the survivor wasnt able to win any of their chases. It may be frustrating but that just means they were the weakest link.
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Genrush is not seen as toxic or bad by killer?
That is a very controversal opinion.
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In the same vein that survivors chose to work on gens with progress already on them instead of seeking out gens without progress, the killer seeks out survivors who are closer to death than ones who are further away from death.
12 -
Do they have a choice?
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Yeah in a SWF on comms you can actually have Surv A use all map resources and have Survs B/C/D pump gens.
Sadly ~60% of matches are solos, where you can't communicate the Killer's intention to tunnel, where a Survivor will take a useless bodyblock (rather than a Bloodlust dropping bodyblock), and will result in a free win for Killer the majority of the time.
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I think tunneling is one of the reasons why balancing killer is challenging. If a killer has enough strength to balance out four survivors, what happens when a killer decides to concentrate all of that strength on one survivor? If killers were stronger overall it might reduce tunneling, but it would never go away, as it's the most effective way to win. Killers that tunneled for the sake of ease would just take those buffs and keep tunneling anyway.
Too much stuff needs to be changed to deal with tunneling fairly for both survivors and killers. The only thing you can hope for is more anti-tunnel perks. DS has been trash for a long time and nothing indicates that BHVR is planning on improving it any time soon.
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I agree, tunneling is a joke when abused to being taken out of the context of “strategic tunneling”
Posting anything like this here on these forums will immediately warrant the attention of the same group who will reply to your topic, and I can name them all for you, and almost verbatim what they’ll have to say, and even the order in which they’ll appear to retort (jk about the order they’ll appear😉), but it isn’t necessary, as they’ll absolutely be showing up to say the same things they’ve said to the last post that gave off a negative vibe on Tunneling, overall.
Unless they’re finally as over replying to everything as I’ve grown to be, in which case I’ll just say…
I commend you for taking a stance on Tunneling, but remember, or if you didn’t know in the first place, be aware, that not all Tunneling is evil.
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I have a hot take for you: 4 or 5 gens is actually the time to tunnel, any time later protecting gens becomes more of a priority unless you have someone dead on hook
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Again, you misunderstood.
Gen rush is literally survivors doing nothing but gens. They don't care about teammates, bring the strongest toolboxes and sit on gens with designated Gen perks.
This is not what I meant.
What I meant is that fast gens is generally seen as a "skill issue" of the killer. They should play better. Which to some extend is correct. But that doesn't mean that the killer enjoys these types of matches. One person definitely has no fun here.
Tunneling a survivor out is much more frowned upon because 4 people get to have less fun in a game. Also understandable due to one person having very little time in a match if they are not exceptional in looping. If it's a Nurse, Blight, Wesker, Spirit or Pyramid head it's even worse.
This is what I meant.
Survivors fun > Killers fun.
This mindset is so common because of there are 4 survivors vs one killer. Therefore if the survivors are unhappy, 4 people have no fun in comparison to the one person having no fun if the killers match is too fast.
In my opinion, the community should stand up and acknowledge that both sides fun should be seen equally. Just because there are 4 people doesn't mean that it's OK for the one to have no fun on the expense of the 4.
12 -
Great point strategically speaking. There is a point in the game where tunneling is not the best option anymore. Spreading pressure is better in these scenarios.
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Tunneling is the most effective way to kill survivors. It's heavily incentivised both by the overall pace of the game and the current meta. Survivors use no protection against tunneling and killers use that weakness, while also progressing their objective way faster and more efficient than normal. It's not toxic, it's natural.
With that being said, I'm not happy about this either. I would love to go back to Decisive Strike being a popular and very strong (against pretty much all killers) perk because then a killer that doesn't tunnel wouldn't be punished by the survivor perks working more effectively against them than if they did tunnel. I would take a 7 seconds DS stun over what we have. Then I'd only have to deal with 12 / 16 perks, if I don't tunnel. Problem is, then it'd be abused. More than the old version already was.
There is no incentive not to tunnel. At all. But there are a million different reasons to tunnel. I don't see this as an issue with killer players but as an issue with the game. Survivors play as efficient as they can too, because that is how you win. A killer trying to win shouldn't be frowned upon. It's more that this is the way you win as killer.
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Tunneling a survivor out is much more frowned upon because 4 people get to have less fun in a game. Also understandable due to one person having very little time in a match if they are not exceptional in looping. If it's a Nurse, Blight, Wesker, Spirit or Pyramid head it's even worse.The thing I don't get is how tunneling killers can have fun. In games where I'm the killer and a survivor is eliminated early, the rest of the game feels like such a chore. There's no tension or excitement, but if the survivors actually go on chases the game can last quite awhile before its finished.
While I've never been part of a gen rush squad, I imagine that there can still be quite a rush associated with trying to do it, especially if you aren't experts at the game and give the killer a chance to snowball.
What I meant is that fast gens is generally seen as a "skill issue" of the killer. They should play better. Which to some extend is correct. But that doesn't mean that the killer enjoys these types of matches. One person definitely has no fun here.Outside the absolute top level of gen rush squads though, a killer does have the ability to get better at the game and fight against gen rushing. I have no control over the skill of other survivors (even if I was in a SWF, that would only be partially true). The game can be decided before some of the survivors have had any meaningful engagement with the killer. That's probably an inevitable draw back of the game's design, but its considerably more annoying.
On a related note, gen rush is not something a killer should encounter until they have some experience at the game and will really only be maximized by SWFs. Any player as a killer, regardless of experience, can tunnel.
Additionally, gen rush squads are at least quick.
Finally, and opinions vary on this, the killer can always play for one kill. I know it doesn't feel the same for every player, but to me if I hit a SWF with high level addons a 1k still feels pretty good. I've never heard anyone talk about a similar feeling from 'well at least we got 3 gens finished'.
In my opinion, the community should stand up and acknowledge that both sides fun should be seen equally. Just because there are 4 people doesn't mean that it's OK for the one to have no fun on the expense of the 4.I don't think any player should have to adjust their play style, I do think any issues with the game that lead to it being 'unfun' (and there are quite a few) should be addressed by BHVR, not by any "rules" that the player should follow. However, given that issues will be addressed one at a time, it makes sense to explain why certain things are bigger issues than others.
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I thought tunneling was resolved by the baskit borrowed time.
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This game is about killing survivors.
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Sry that Killers doing there objectiv and try to Kill Survivors next time we ignore u and let u do Gens
i hv always try to Play whitout tunneling but everytime u are not tunneling as a weak Killer and doesnt get a 4k u get teabagged at the Exitgate so now im just chasing the Survivor i see and dont care if he got unhooked
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Don't lump everyone into an assumption.
I don't get triggered or grumpy over being tunneled and neither do any of the players I SWF with. (One of the reasons why I SWF with them they don't go auto blaming tunneling and camping for any kind of game outcome).
Its just part of the game and the killer may go for an early elimination or not.
Things to learn to avoid being eliminated early.
- Don't get found first, play less overtly and more stealthy at game start till the killer is occupied elsewhere then slam a gen. If you run everywhere all the time you are gonna get found early.
- Run with a plan, layouts aren't that complex and tend to be pretty similar across most maps, there is usually a better way to loop most structures... learn it.
- Build to counter the mechanics that you struggle against. Are you good at gens but get caught in chase then take chase and info perks, are you good at chase but miss skill checks on gens then take gen perks, do you dislike being slugged take anti slug perks. You can build to try and counter most things.
- Realize that early elimination, like many games, is just part of the game. It could happen to you accept that fact. The very threat of elimination and non-participation is what makes games of DBD so intense. Without it the game would be very bland indeed, learn to love that aspect of the survival horror. The game's excitement level depends on it.
- Lastly someone eliminating you early isn't some personal slight or attack on your fun, its just gameplay don't go spilling a bad gaming attitude into the real world and abusing other players over a game.
These 5 simple points can make any game of DBD fun when playing survivor, even if targeted and eliminated early.
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Thanks for your post. A good one. I do have to add a few important things.
What some people dont realise somehow is how big of a problem this already is. Maybe not for everyone, but in my games at least there is a very high chance (way above 50%) someone gets tunneling right from the beginning. I am not saying that this is unwinable with a good team (i am glad you and your SWF dont care!) but in Solo where coordination is bad and gens wont fly like in your SWF game, its just super frustrating. Not all the games are lost and when the killer for some reason picks me, i can usually give the killer a good chase and buy a lot of time. The chance of that is unfortunatly only about ~25%.
Your ideas are fine and i am sure a new players will take note, but those dont imply to tunneling in those games i am in for a very simple reason: Even a semi-experienced player will hook the survivor in a deadzone and proxicamp. Tunneling off the hook is almost a guaranteed down. Random players dont understand the concept of pathing and create deadzones within 30 seconds of the game. Every killer including myself knows this.
Defending tunneling in my opinion in the slightest is like defending other broken mechanics like old DS or BNP. It wont contribute anything to the goal of getting a better game, rather make it even worse.
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"In my opinion, the community should stand up and acknowledge that both sides fun should be seen equally. Just because there are 4 people doesn't mean that it's OK for the one to have no fun on the expense of the 4."
Just one note I want to address here, is that in an elimination game the threat of elimination can be part of the fun. Its survival horror the point could be made that the higher the stakes for survival the higher the fun. If there wasn't that level of potential threat then DBD would completely fail to emulate the slasher films its based on.
That visceral and final element of the game should be celebrated not lamented even if it happens early because it is that intrinsic threat that makes DBD exciting to play. If people find that threat unfun I'd rather they played something else than try and ruin what DBD is.
Just imagine DBD if there was no elimination or no threat of early elimination and perhaps even if you just kept respawning and wins were based on endgame score not eliminations. It would be the blandest experience imaginable.
Yet the concept of fun is often touted as driving for that very bland kind of experience. Which I think kind of misses the point of DBD.
I'd hate to say it but this isn't some important social justice moment. No one is taking a stance against anything here, its just the usual BS of someone whining about getting eliminated early in an elimination game.
Last time I checked whining about a game wasn't really a thing worthy of commendation. Is the bar for accolades really that low these days.
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You raise fair point. But ask yourself why is it frustrating? Its just gameplay. If people find gameplay elements frustrating maybe DBD isn't for them. A game that involves an early elimination is still mechanically identical to a game of DBD where there isn't an early elimination.
Is it the perception of increased difficulty, the thought they won't earn as many BP's (A completely free and infinite currency that is passively earned simply by playing). A hyperfocus on game outcome over gameplay?
We aren't talking about a broken mechanic here, we are talking about the killers ability to choose whom to chase. The mechanics of a chase are the same whether you are being "tunneled" or not. The onus is on the team to make good saves and take hits. The onus is on the survivor to escape chase "tunneled" or otherwise.
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Balancing for casuals kills competitives and viceversa
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There is a fundamental problem with your statement. Just because it is gameplay does not mean it is good gameplay. Imagine gens would be done in (an extreme example) 10 seconds. That would also be gameplay. Horrible experience for both sides and completly unfair. But gameplay nevertheless.
Tunneling does not get punished enough. So yes, i would argue that it is a broken mechanic. Tunneling is just way to easy and rewarding for the killer while also the most frustrating and boring experience for the other side, at least for the majority of people. Its a big flaw in this game in literaly any possible way.
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"Maybe dbd isnt for them". Really despise people who use that line as an excuse to go out of their way to ruin someone's experience. Yea. Lets make sure to get as many people away from this community by not having the decency to be a human being and not caring there is another person on the other side of the screen.
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This comes down to what people define as having fun.
Dont get me wrong. I by no means defend tunneling as a fun part for the killer.
I absolutely agree with you.
Is it fun for survivors to be as efficiently on gens as possible and end a match under 6 minutes? Maybe for some people it is.
I generally feel like the fun of dbd comes down to interaction between killer and survivor.
Therefore tunneling is not fun for me because, as you said, it's not very interactive for the 3 other survivors.
Efficiency on gens is also not very interactive for me. I dont play Blight or Nurse. My chases take some time. I have to get two hits. It's not uncommon on big maps that I lose just by the games design if I want to make the match as interactive as possible.
My comment only points out the double standart between efficiency of killer and efficiency of survivor.
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Survivors are playing an elimination game. It's not ruining your experience for the killer to eliminate you first.
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Being elimimated first isnt the issue nor the problem. You know what tunneling is, so i dont really have to be more clear on it.
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Then tunneling isn't an actual problem.
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I dont get how this is hard to understand tbh. The problem of tunneling is that it is a very bad experience in general.
3 people have a snooze fest by sitting on gens (hopefully). No gameplay, no interaction with the killer. I hope everybody agrees on that sitting on gens is the least intersting thing in DBD.
1 person gets the unpleasent experience of beeing tunneled of the hook with little chance of escape and fun chases. It should be clear that a chase is not fun when you get hooked in a deadzone, beeing proxicamped and then downed before the survivor can reach any form of safety.
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Survivors tunnel gens, and then get mad when the killer tunnels back. Its pretty sad TBH.
The reality is though, there is this double standard where, when the killer plays "efficiently" it is toxic. But if the survivors play "efficiently" its "git gud scrub" or "just pressure gens 5head"
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Again a fair point. But in this case the gen example is kind of apples and oranges.
Killer is the antagonist they are in game for the full run no matter what happens. That's why it 1v4.
As survivor you aren't guaranteed to be in game for the duration that's part of the game. The whole concept of survivor is to avoid elimination whether that elimination comes early or late or not at all is a caveat of DBD.
We can quibble over whether we think this is good or bad, but its a fundamental part of the survival horror element of the game. I'd say one of the best elements of it.
Why does DBD elicit the over the top response from people that it does, sometimes moreso than other games? I think its because there is this underlying threat of just being taken out and that visceral kind of game experience can generate an equally visceral response from players.
Personally I think that's amazing and spot on for the horror genre that DBD sits in.
The mechanics of DBD are pretty simplistic and anytime BHVR attenuate the threat of elimination it becomes a lil more bland to play, especially as survivor.
A big part of this is queue times - a game that has a 10 min wait for a 2min game is probably gonna frustrate a few people but I still don't think that is enough of a reason to undermine the survival horror nature of the experience.
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It has nothing to with not caring about someone else's experience or being motivated to ruin someone else's experience. The kind of mindset that thinks like this... is the real problem.
Its entirely possible to tunnel, camp, slug, blind, BM, stun, bleed out etc. and be competitively as "mean" as possible in a game and still be a completely amicable thoughtful caring likeable person in real life.
That's why these things are called games they are parody's of life not life itself. The inability of players to separate their game experience from a real world experience is what leads to a lot of toxicity. Your concept that gameplay is somehow linked to human decency is a great example of this.
There is an old table top gaming saying "if you are gonna dice rage, you shouldn't play games with dice." and its very true.
So we have a bunch of people who dice rage... does that mean we ban dice from a game? No that would be silly.
Remember in something as trivial as a game its not what happens to you that matters its how you react to it. If you react poorly to established game elements then maybe that game isn't for you.
There are plenty of online games where you can't be eliminated early or even at all and you just respawn endlessly and winners are calculated by score tally at game end. But then there are games where you can be taken out, sometimes early, sometimes harshly.
Should all games be one or the other or should players recognize when they find one style unfun and look for an alternative?
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Then get off a gen and get in the killer's face, take some hits and help your buddy escape!
Its a team game after all. You have all the tools to counter "tunneling" at your disposal. Use them.
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I keep seeing this argument, "you lost a chase as survivor so you're just bad". But I also keep seeing map and chase perk nerfs demanded because "killers can't afford chases that last over 30 seconds".
So how can maps be changed to basically soft cap chases at 30 seconds, but then it's the survivors fault for losing the chase?
How is it my fault if the killer walks in circles around an unsafe pallet for 30 seconds and then gets a free hit with bloodlust?
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My apologies. Not reading all that. But yes it's a problem otherwise this "us vs them" mentality wouldn't be a topic for discussion for this long. Yet here we still are.
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I dont think at all it is a bad comparison, why would it be? You say that, but wont provide any counter to it.
Also not sure what my point has to do with "horror game"? Because it is a horror game, awful experience is justyfied? You say it with very nice words, but bottom line, it is exactly that what you discribe. At least this is how i read it.
The reality is, that we need both killer and survivor player. In fact, we need a lot more survivor player to get this thing going. If our only explanation of bad game design is that it is supposed to "feel bad" then this game is clearly taking the wrong path.
We should root for BETTER game design. Nobody with a sane mind (i hope!) would argue that tunneling one person out of the game while the others are sleeping on gen is more fun then a killer who spreads hooks across the board and everybody gets his fair share of gameplay. Right?
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Tunneling (especially at 5 gens) is a broken mechanic where the killer is trying to make an intended 4v1 game a 1v1 game (and more commonly a 2v1 aka the two man tunnel as I call it). It breaks the game, just as comp survivors break the game. So like usual soloq pays the price. Soloq aka 1 survivor vs 4 killers.
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Camping and tunneling can remian in the game as "tactics," but they should not be something the killer can do for free; especially when countering them costs the survivors a perk slot or two.
It costs ZERO perk slots to hang out near the hook or head back to it when the unhook happens. Meanwhile, the survivors have to equip perks like Kindred, Reassurance, Camaraderie, Deliverance, and none of those are a guarantee.
It costs ZERO perk slots to chase, down, and re-hook the same survivor twice in a row. Meanwhile, the survivors have to equip perks like Off the Record, Decisive Strike, Baby Sitter, For the People, and none of those are a guarantee.
----
Change the base game mechanic for hooked survivors. Make it much harder for killers to camp/proxy hooked survivors. THEN, add perk(s) that let the killer camp as easily as they can currently. Make camping cost a perk slot.
Change the base game mechanic for recently unhooked survivors. Make it much harder for killers to tunnel the same survivor repeatedly. THEN, add perk(s) that let the killer tunnel survivors as easily as they can currently. Make tunneling cost a perk slot.
Post edited by Nos37 on5 -
I should of added tunneling has became more prevalent when DS and BBQ were nerfed (when they added match incentives). Because DS was meta and discouraged killers from tunneling. Same with BBQ, it encouraged killers to hook everyone (like pain res now) for more bloodpoints. OTR while a great perk is rarely used because it's not actually an antitunneling perk.
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So you want a game where survivors can't die
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The killer doesn't need to moan or make excuses for tunneling.
Sucks they're trying to win fast, I guess.
Any suggestions aside from the built-in Borrowed Time/Haste to help alleviate tunneling?
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Off the Record should activate 10 seconds after being unhooked or if the killer hits you within 10 seconds of being unhooked.
The fact that the "anti-tunnel" perk is disabled if the killer immediately hits you off-hook (y'know... tunnel) is sad.
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Then we should make it possible for the killer to go for as many hooks as possible right?
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