http://dbd.game/killswitch
"The distance between pallets on the maps are fair" - really questionable.
So, for all years that I were playing DBD, I never actually counted how many pallets each map has. And it didn't matter for me too much.
The thing that did matter - is a distance between those pallets.
So after some weird stuff with MMR, I've had a bunch of really boring games, where survivors were able to just literally running and predropping a pallet, after a pallet and so on... No mindgames, not even looking behind them, straight W key to pallets and windows, and If I didn't drop those chases, they would've done this for 3-4 minutes. Which is you know how many gens.
No skill involved, no mindgames, no different decision making.
I do not remember this distance between pallets being so short, that survivors just able to do that. That is actually bonkers.
There is a lot of times, that pallets appear 2-3m away from eachother. I don't know about how fair is that I've never had any complains about it gameplay wise, but I can say for sure - it's pretty boring to play against. You literally autopiloting with chased survivor and breaking or running around these predropped pallets, until you reach a dead-zone. It was so boring, that I was playing this match with half-closed(opened) eyes, and started yawning.
MFT (I know about changes) is making it even worse.
The gameplay like this is really unhealthy imo. What do you think tho? Something need to be addressed about it?
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The distance between hooks and gens being fair is also questionable and also quite boring to play against. If they're making maps smaller they need to go back to the drawing board and try to ensure everything is better distributed.
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This is something that I've noticed too but I explain this with too many pallets in general. There are games in which survivors can pre drop every pallet and delay the killer long enough for them to do the gens easily. This is not a big issue for most stronger killers but for someone like Freddy it is.
One solution would be to decrease the overall amount of pallets to a degree where survivors have to play around them or dead zone themselves. But this would cause an issue with killers, that are strong enough to either break through or play around these pallets. Also, newer players are already up for quite a challenge to learn the game, so that wouldn't help either. Increasing the distance between pallets would result in issues with killer powers, that can get these pallets out of the way faster. For example, if a Billy or Bubba plays it right, they will get the pallet out of the way and the survivor makes to the next loop but not much further. This could potentially cause an issue with these 2 (and others) getting free hits after breaking a pallet.
This is really not something easy to fix but definitely worth discussing and thinking about.
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I can clearly remember, that not so long ago if you predrop a pallet and instantly go to another pallet - the killer will be able to hit you, if they ignore and go around a predropped pallet. Like the distance between pallets in most of the times didn't allow you (survivor) to do that before. You've had to "force" the killer to break it, if you wanted to be able to reach another pallet or window.
Now it feels like you don't even need to use your brain too much, you don't need to look behind you, just autopilot to a pallet - instantly go to another pallet and repeat, until you reach a dead zone.
My problem with that, as I was saying - it's very boring for both sides, I can not believe that this gameplay is enjoyable even for that survivor.
Multiple games like this will end-up with you getting completely bored out. Which is ironically stupid for the meaning of the games, which is - having fun.
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Mmm it depends on a number of factors.
1.) map (see borgo, eyrie, and every other map full of dead zones. All have pallets, tho!)
2.) some pallets are just very unsafe (and thereby useless).
3.) the killer matters (are they antiloop—thereby invalidating the pallet? Can they hit over the pallet (ranged killers including Nemesis, Xenomorph, Pyramidhead, etc?)
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Could you give an example? Because I really can't think of one from the top of my head. Pre dropping has always been more effective than it should be as far as I remember. But it might be that some maps used to have spots where pre dropping wouldn't be as strong and I just don't recall.
What you described is something I also call the WoO effect because mostly you see players with this perk doing exactly that. It is indeed boring to play against but still so common that I reckon it must be enjoyable enough for the survivor to play like this. If it wasn't then I doubt they'd do it.
There are sadly instances where either side can reduce the other to a mere bot. No thinking involved and no actual interactivity. Some of us could probably do this blindfolded and without sound. You're just following through the motions until it's finally over and you are allowed to actually play again. This is all the more problematic when you think about what both sides do outside of the chase. There is a reason many of us regard chases as the most fun part of DBD and when even that isn't enjoyable because it's more of a chore than an actual high stakes situation, then the game becomes boring and loses its appeal.
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Yes. For example: I was playing Xenomorph on Yamaoka map, the chase started at the shack with Felix, after I come up from tunnel, he instantly jumped the window and run to TL loop (left side of the map), At this moment I broke a turret and gone for him.
Felix indeed were having WoO and MFT. I was able to hit him with M2 at the TL loop, and after that he gone "wild" with W-key. So he went to the right side of the map at the JG (jungle gym). Predropped a pallet, which I instantly started breaking, from there he holds W at the small loop right after a window from JG, which is a little higher on the map, predrop a pallet (which I was expecting) and instantly moved to the middle. Now interesting part - Despite me ignoring the second pallet, he was able to reach a pallet on top of the "main building", predropped it and instantly gone through a window which were at the stairs. I ignored the third pallet and dropped from the opening, finally getting closer to him, by the time he dropped the Forth pallet, I was able to hit him over this pallet.
So basically he was able to run me from bottom left - bottom right - middle - top left side of the map, without any reasonable effort (skill). The funny part about all this - he wasn't even looking behind him at least once, after he got first hit.
There were many more situations on different maps (I'm not gonna include the Game map, you know how it is), where it was basically the same thing, but much longer.
From such matches I just imagine how could I struggle if I were playing M1 killer...
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Here:
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Ooooh another post where somebody 4ked their way through soloq to reach high mmr where people that know how to play efficiently actually exist. Cry me an ocean, so i can go on vacation.
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what game were you playing? the maps were always that strong. you can just look at coal tower and ironworks of misery. those maps have not changed in years. The maps were even more powerful in the past. the 3 classic realms were farm maps, autohaven maps and macmillan maps. You could always chain all loops. I am not sure what maps you are referencing.
Here is list of other maps that followed: the maps we got after were Mother dwelling(Huntress), Haddonfield(Myer's), Backwater swamp(Hag), ***Lery(Doctor), Badham preschool(Freddy), Gideon Meat packing plant(Pig), Father chapel(Clown) Spirit(Yamoka estate), Legion(Ormond), Plague(Temple of Purgation). If you fast-forward to more modern maps, you get Eyrie of crows(Artist), Garden of joy(Dredge), Shattered Square(Knight), Toba Landing(Singularity), Nostromo Wreckage(Alien). A lot of these maps are strong so perhaps you could list which maps you think in the past were not littered with pallets everywhere.
The only maps that were arguably good for killer were indoor maps which I mention one of them being Lery's, Hawkins(Demogorgon), Dead dog saloon(Deathslinger), Midwich Elementary school(Pyramid head) and RPD(Nemesis/Wesker). The most forgettable map release for me is Sanctum of wraith(Oni's). I think that is because it is middle of road map that does not favor one side or other. The map is just there I guess.
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You misunderstood my question. Let me try and rephrase it: Can you give me an example of a map where you know that this didn't work in the past and just now works? I really can't think of a map, where pre dropping and Shift + W to the next pallet didn't work reliably. Maybe on the old Shelter Woods depending on RNG but other than that, I don't remember.
I thank you for this example all the same. It shows how ridiculous this whole situation can actually be. It's one of the reasons I've started using Brutal Strength and Fire Up on Freddy. I just want to have a normal chase. With looping, mind gaming and all that. This whole Shift + W until Bloodlust kicks in, then pre drop a jungle gym pallet (or something similarly strong) and repeat is incredibly boring. I can win against this, if I use a somewhat good build (way more than I usually do) at least on a somewhat fair map but I'd much rather lose a game in which I was just outplayed multiple times. Because then I at least wasn't bored out of my mind.
One of the things that initially got me hooked on this game was this whole back and forth aspect of the chase. But this really lacks, when one side turns off their brain and forces you to do the same.
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Hook spawns is a whole thing... I know alot of times it gets ridiculous where if 1 hook gets saboed, or God forbid someone die on it, that entire area just becomes a hook deadzone that ppl will run to. Hawkins 2nd floor is really bad about this.
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there is way more pallets on sanctum of wrath then what your showing. the map has 11-15 pallets. the main building spawns 1 unsafe pallet on the top. the other pallet spawns on either side. On the shack side that your drawing, there is at least 6-7 pallets. For example, where your drawing the arrow, your missing at least 2 pallets there + tile-set.
On top side right, your missing Japanese garden, a tile set, 1-2 pallets in center between left-right side with that weird building that spawns some vaults in middle that very few survivor know how to utilize. On left, there is roughly 2 pallets+tile-set.
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Some are quite far apart, others are so close together it makes no sense. I remember a single corner on Garden of Joy had 5 pallets within stun duration distance of each other. Not talking 1/4th of the map, this was more like 1/16th of the corner of the map or something along those lines.
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I mean what we were expecting when asking to make map smallers?
Maps are smaller means loops will be close to each other. If there is map which makes survivors perform so well, probably will be nerfed. But i doubt this happens.
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Another reason you didn't mention is Windows of Oportunity. Any scrub who doesn't know the maps, mindgames/jukes and didn't explore the current RNG of any given map can make you waste a lot of time by just running and predropping pallets. And there are still people saying it is a balanced and healthy perk, lol.
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This was an issue even on old Mother's Dwelling. So, I wouldn't say it is directly connected to maps being small. Also, most maps are still quite large but the issue remains.
I am not saying that we should simply increase the distance between pallets and delete whatever doesn't fit (that would cause other issues) but this is one of the go-to strategies even in comp DBD. So it is stronger than it should be. There is just no effort in pre dropping and holding Shift + W.
I understand that this should be a valid strategy against some killers but it works against almost all of them (exceptions being everyone's favorites Nurse and Blight). This is another reason why STBFL is as popular a perk on M1 killers. It minimises the distance a survivor makes after being hit, so they will have to use the next loop they can get to instead of running halfway across the map and picking the strongest loop they can find while the killer has to catch up. Normally this takes so long, that building up bloodlust after a hit is quite common for these killers.
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Damn, sorry, I lost the 50\50 there. =)
The maps back then were: Red forest, Autohaven, Swamp and Badham is what I could remember for sure (Def not Gideon or old Earie). I do remember survivors were doing that even back then, but it was REALLY NOT this efficient.
I mean, even on the same Yamaoka map!
MFT was not in the game yet! I actually think it's an MFT issue, after you reminded me...
Like it was not even worth talking about, or even creating a post about back then, you know?
Exactly! There were more pallets around, I was showing with arrows his pathing, he got hit at the TL, then he just zoomed to a GJ at the right.
The thing that I didn't understand is that how he was able to reach main building's pallet from a small loop, literally not looking behind him, with me ignoring the pallet at this small loop. SOMEHOW, I was not able to catch up to him before he reached the pallet at main building. Does this MFT alone providing you to do so? That is kinda... Nuts?
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So three things...
Pre dropping is the 'top level' survivor gameplay. This is how 'competitive dbd' is played: pre dropping and gen rushing vs tunneling.
MFT does nothing in a hold w scenario, it's ok in loops, but it's weakest in a dead zone where bloodlust is all but guaranteed. It's also getting nerfed soon, so I'm tired of hearing about it being 'the reason' people think they're struggling. It's not.
Not every pallet is the same strength. You can play unsafe pallets and still earn hits, which is why there are usually many pallets on a map. Despite what many people seem to think, not all pallets are 'god pallets'. If you're kicking every pallet in every chase, you're literally doing it wrong.
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I play Trapper and have to use Zanshin tactic because I dont know the layout anymore with constant maps update.
Killers in general no need to learning layout. A survivor lead killer to a title (gym, pallet gym, TL, 4 lanes...) and mind game from there.
Survivors need to know the layout to chain title effectively, same as Trapper to know the chaining path to put traps.
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killer has 2.7 second wipe animation and 1.8 second sprint burst. For some reason, I remember this sprint burst being 150% but according to wiki, it is 165%? It is odd number. Either way, you can go from one end of the map to other end of the map. It takes 20 second to catch-up.
If he had MFT, it is even longer catch-up. the average SB is around 1/2 map away. MFT is like 3/4 of the map. I have never bothered to look at math behind how much current MFT adds to shift-w time for survivor. If i had to take a guess, I would say around 6-8 seconds. so I would say around 26 seconds.
Pallets take 2.34 to break and that is like 10-12 seconds of catch-up per pallet break between loops. With MFT, I would guess around 15 second of shift-w potencial. that is one of MFT's greatest strengths, If you use the perk correctly, you have very low probability to get zoned with MFT because the distance gain of MFT is like +20% pallet break increase for killer. You take 20% longer to make-up distance that you lose from being locked in pallet break. In summary, it is as if each pallet break goes from 2.34 -> 2.8 second to pallet break. That does not sound like big deal from a number perceptive but if the killer is zoning pallet breaks, that is often difference between getting hit and not getting hit in a lot of cases.
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Excuse me, but did you really get looped in sanctum of wrath like that? I was expecting some map that actually has well connected loops, not sanctum. Sorry but that's on you, especially the part where the survivor ran through main, considering it's probably the unsafest main in the whole game, and at it's sides there's a dead zone and zoning is really easy in that map
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No one were looping anything, the guy just Shift+W --- Predrop --- Repeat. And I broke only 1 pallet at GJ, before starting ignoring other. The thing is - I could catch up to him only by Fourth pallet on top left!
The issue I'm making here - why survivor allowed to hold Shift+W and predroping for that long? Why even looping at this point? This is very boring.
And as I was saying, this happened not only on Yamaoka, there were multiple ocasions on different maps.
All I was doing is just holding W as well, to catch up to this survivor, there is no other counterplay.
And btw, Sanctum of wrath has multiple connected loops, pallets and windows.
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