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Comments
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The basekit BT, the AFC, the removal of unhooking grabs and now the "3 genning solution", whatever it is. All things that already had in game solutions. And people is already asking for an "anti slug" mechanic.
But a FoV slider? Unacceptable, that's too much. It's going to unbalance the whole game, even if the only difference would be that you won't need to use a perk slot to not suffer motion sickness. BHVR is killer sided and they prefer to ruin the game than never buff killers ever again. That's it.
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How do basekit BT and the AFC system cover for a lack of game sense? No amount of game sense will stop a killer from hard-tunnelling or facecamping if it's mechanically possible for them to do it. Neither are things game sense could beat, or could prevent, so they're out as examples here.
The removal of unhooking grabs... there's a bit more of an argument there about game sense, kinda, but it ties in to camping. If the killer's camping, no amount of game sense will stop that.
Now the 3-genning solution, which is the first thing actually beatable with the right tools and mindset, but it's not exactly healthy for the game if the killer sticks by a 3-gen and refuses to actually down + hook survivors. Even if we were to agree that it's unnecessary, though, that's one example, so not a pattern.
I do agree the person you're responding to was silly to say the FOV slider is tone-deaf, to be clear, I was just confused about your comment regarding game sense.
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The first three things all removes the same level of game sense: The need of making your build with those cases in mind, the need to know how to coordinate with your teammates to do saves (now only reserved to the EGC, where if done correctly it would almost always grant the save without the need of having thought that it could happen beforehand), and having the enough common sense of knowing that if a killer with an instadown is camping the hook it would require extra effort to go for a save, so you should decide if it is worth it or it is better to just do gens (funny enough, it appears that most people don't even have the enough game sense to know that now if you see the killer camping you should get out of there and let the AFC do it's job) among other things.
Now we will have to see what the anti 3 genning is about, but if it is something that prevent survivors getting punished for not putting some thought on what 3 gens are letting the killer have at the end, it would be another one to add to the list.
And don't get me wrong, most of those mechanics were implemented in a "fair" way (with some caveats, like I said with BT in the endgame) and I don't have any problem with them. Doesn't change the fact that they were game changing and made to cover for the lack of game sense of survivors, so it is funny to see survivors complaining that adding an accessibility feature along the 4º base mechanic to solve their gameplay problems for them is so unbalancing that is going to completely break the game.
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To tackle those examples in order:
The need to craft your build with hard tunnelling and facecamping in mind is not game sense, it's just pressure to not bring fun and interesting perks. It's a cause for stale metas and an irritating stifle on player expression, and it's absolutely a good reason to implement these mechanics, not a detracting factor.
I'm not sure I understand your second example, the need to know how to coordinate with your teammates. That's either something you can't do regardless of game sense, if you're in solo queue, or it's something that's largely pretty unaffected if you're in SWF? Not coordinating still means you're being inefficient, and it also wouldn't have caused hard tunnelling or face-camping before these mechanics were added, so I really don't get this one. Maybe I'm missing something, of course, please feel free to elaborate if so.
Your last point is the same as the first: That's not game sense, that's a game flaw. If you cannot go for a save and there's nothing to punish the killer for it... your teammate just dies and the killer gets a free kill, or you're forced to trade and give the killer free (albeit lesser) value that way instead. That's a bad outcome either way, so this mechanic isn't covering for a lack of game sense, it's correcting a flaw.
As for the 3-gen thing, I think considering that the previous mechanics don't cover for poor game sense in any meaningful way intentionally or unintentionally, I think BHVR have earned a little bit of benefit of the doubt. There's no point in making a fuss until we've actually seen what it does- and even if it does leave survivors able to cause 3-gens without being punished for it, that's not 'another to add to the list', it's the first entry on a currently empty list.
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In summary: "They not cover for survivors, they are needed features so survivors can get the best experience out of the game and have fun playing it", just as I said in the first post.
Anyway, again, I don't mind as long as they aren't abusable by survivors or an unearned advantage, so I don't have more to say about it. Just that again, is funny that BHVR is so killer sided for adding a FoV slider for killers after 4 base mechanics for survivors.
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You seemed to be saying it sarcastically, hence my asking for clarification. You certainly seemed to be arguing against that point up to this stage, too.
Because, yes, they don't cover for lack of game sense, they were addressing base game flaws.
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I think you didn't understand, what I'm saying is that just as I said in the first post, you are giving that "explanation" of why those base mechanics that covers for survivors "are needed", almost like it is what every person defending them says (or maybe I can see the future, who knows...).
Because they do cover for survivors, as already explained. If you want to call it "base game flaws" to justify the fact that the game cover for the lack of game sense and skill of survivors, you do you. If that was the case, they could have done a lot of other things that still required survivors to apply gameplay solutions while solving those "design flaws" in their more extreme form only, instead of applying general nerfs in form of base mechanics that cover for every situation and case so they don't even have to worry about it.
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Not at all? They're different statements. There is no game sense to cover for in your examples, because those things aren't a case of only struggling because you don't understand the game fully, nor are they situations that you can overcome with a superior knowledge of how a match is progressing.
It's not covering for a lack of game sense. That's a separate sentence to talking about why these things were added. That's why I was responding to your explanation- it's flawed, and doesn't prove the thing you're saying.
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The only thing I would say is that you have the misconception that "game sense" only applies to have knowledge of the game. While in part is true, having game sense also implies that you would make the right calls at the right time with that knowledge, which also needs skill. For example, if you can't coordinate to do a save without a "3, 2, 1, GO!" in voicecomms is also having a lack of game sense.
Other than that, I already said what I had to say about the topic. I would only point out that your explanation of "they are needed" are not any proof that they doesn't cover for a lack of game sense either. For example, the fact that having to take in count the possibility of you getting tunneled or camped on hook while making your build could lead to "stale metas and an irritating stifle on player expression" doesn't change the fact that you don't need to even think about it now as the game cover those cases for you. So, you are free to contribute in the stale and irritating meta of having WoO + the 3 builds that everyone else use (a lot of player expression in survivor's builds, without doubt).
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So, your second paragraph here is repeating that same error I was talking about before. What you're describing, with needing to account for camping and tunnelling being something uncounterable without perks while crafting your build, isn't game sense outside of the most basic level of understanding camping and tunnelling exist. The systems in place to address camping and tunnelling aren't covering for a lack of game sense, they're just allowing those tactics to be (at least partially) countered using game sense instead of using perks.
Another great example is actually hook saves. Before the survivor HUD, there was no amount of game sense that would let you make the right decision without assuming your teammates are doing something useful, which is just a guess, or without bringing Kindred. Now, though, with the survivor HUD added, the player's game sense is what dictates if they're making the right call, not whether they brought the single correct perk in the loadout screen.
TL;DR, not wanting to be forced to run very specific perks is not a lack of game sense. The systems that addressed this need for specific perks actually enable game sense, they don't cover for a lack of it.
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All changes to the game has been BHVR at the root. They always have final say ofc. But!
According to survivors, the genrush meta is in response to tunneling. There's no time to do anything else. Healing, regression perks, etc don't really matter when tunneling is rampant like this. But I'll assume you are correct, in which case gen times have nothing to do with anything. Everyone always has a 'If this was adjusted, things would be fine.' You've chosen increasing gen times. Others have suggested perk adjustments, not giving either side haste mechanics, etc etc.
Tweaks like everyone is suggesting won't fix an inherently bad game. Party game became popular and the player base wants it more balanced and competitive. BHVR isn't equipped to do either of these things. So here we are on the forums, blaming the other side lol. So Ill jump on.
Nuh uh! Genrush meta is direct result of Killer's tunneling and getting healing and such nerfed into pointlessness. :)
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Where is the solution to the generators flying? Why do I have to play with 4 generator slowdown perks to at least make the game fun? Killers should NOT have 4 perks to slow them down, if so, something is wrong in the game.
One of them is... corrupt intervention along with pop or flagellant hooks (artist perk)
I would like to play a game where I DON'T have any slowdown perks in my build or not worry about having any, because it would say a lot about the game and then we could focus on having other types of perks.
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I would chime in here that you are under a misconception but I appreciate you stating your partial definition of it. Game sense is generally used for making decisions in a running game. It is a function of game knowledge, metagame knowledge, map awareness, pattern recognition & prediction of the opponent's actions which lead to a player adapting and coordinating accordingly or not.
You claimed earlier making a build requires game sense. It does not, for you can enter a game without a build at all or you could make a fun but actually terrible build. A build influences your possible actions. If your goals are to beat Nurse and Blight then you would build according to your game & metagame knowledge and a trickle of personal preference like map knowledge if you bring an offering.
Going for an unhook without BT in the pre-BasekitBT era while the killer is nearby is poor game sense. Having BT required because the killer is camping is hostile to players since it is such a basic interaction between the two factions that it forces you to bring a certain perk thus removing choice (keyword player agency). Thus the game is better for having basekitBT.
No amount of game sense will stop a killer from hitting a freshly unhooked survivor right then and there. No version of DS will help you if you are lying directly under a hook because you will be back on it before the skillcheck comes up. The only way to "outplay" this is to bring every single survivor to huddle up under the hook but that does not work against instadown killers, or on indoor maps (lack of space), or fullstack STBFL users who will cut down the entire squad, or when one survivor is already dead. The same applies to hookgrabs. Offering two downs for one unhook is no play but a throw in most cases. So, there you go. The extreme situations are what forced these changes and those were extremely easy to get into, easy to abuse and most importantly not fun. BHVR tried a perk-based solution with Reassurance, apparently was not good enough.
It should be clear but you argued against AFC anyway: No amount of game sense helped you against a facecamping Bubba. If he hooked and stared at you, you were expected to endure it for 2min. Whoever attempted the unhook threw the game. Exceptional fun for all parties involved.
The one thing that helps with game sense you did not even discuss: survivor HUD which is just a small version of what SWFs have.
Just because the game was allowed to be in a state with these things in it or rather without them does not mean it was more balanced, more fun or even okay... looking at Nurse and Blight. Nevermind the fact that killers got buffs as well.
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That would be a dream come true. :)
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Your roadmap is missing Nerf Chuckie
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Chucky isn‘t too strong. I would also go so far to say he is balanced and weaker than the stronger killers.
I just think it‘s a missed opportunity that you can‘t turn beyond 90 degree in his sprint.
Post edited by jonifire on1 -
Can you change MFT so that you get the 3% speed bonus only as obsession and that it increases the chance to be the obsession.
Right now it‘s only an useless perk.
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I am really excited about the FOV slider! I m on PS5 . On Console you only get one look around speed (compared to mouse which is much more responsive/customizable). I play at 70~75% sensitivity, and even at that speed sometimes PC players can do POV techs that need a quick snap to see what they're doing which is harder to do on sticks. With FOV, I feel like it'll even the playing field a bit.
I donnu why 3-gen solution is a thing. I don't think there is a 3-gen problem in the current state of the game. Additionally a "natural" flow in the game is for survivors to move around after doing a gen as to NOT 3-gen themselves. A 3-gen solution might just bring about a gen hopping play-style which survivors finish nearest gens faster without worrying about consequences.
Looking forward to Perk reworks (specially Grim Embrace). Hopefully, they'l be viable and add variety to the meta abit.
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UW - definitely deserves nerf
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nice discussion :-)
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The current killer FOV is an active inhibitor. I'm not speaking on the motion sickness side of it. The FOV is so narrow a survivor can almost run a complete circle around me and I can't see them. Or one can hide at my feet and unless I look down I can't see them. That's ridiculous. Even for DBD.
I welcome the FOV slider.
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I wish they released the Dev update already, I hope it's not day before PTB like last year!
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I still dont understand why some perks get the "super-easy-to-do" number changes, but the other 50 perks that would need such changes are getting ignored for another two or three years. Balancing out several dozens of perks could be so easy for BHVR.
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Here comes that "toned down" Blight tomorrow. :D
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With these changes Save the Best for Last can be hard countered if the obsession has Plot Twist.
It will enable survivors to remove all stacks from a safe location, far from the killer. There will be nothing the killer can do to stop this from happening. Most killers will likely report this as a bug because they will see their stacks dropping, but won’t immediately understand why. This is obviously a bad experience for any killer players who get hit with it as it would negate their build entirely with nothing for them to do to stop it.
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Sneak a map offering rework in there please !
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About "Decisive Strike" I thought it could have these changes:
-the stun lasts 5 seconds, however, killer can reduce the stun time with the "endurance" perk
-The perk would work in the end game
-The perk would not deactivate when performing actions, but it would deactivate when receiving grabs of any type
- The perk does not activate if an injured surv heals completely before being hooked into the match
The idea is to make the perk useful when the killer is just tunneling the surv and not to function as an extra cure as it usually is.
I would like there to be some changes that are not on the list, I'll give you an example:
-Buff on Spine chill: the perk is only valid when the killer sees you, it could alert the surv
when the killer is looking at the surv through aura reading and killer instinct
-Killers couldn't see the hooks'regression bar or the survs' dying state: many killers wait until the last second to
put a surv on the hook, leaving it on the floor and looking at
bar to control this, which generates toxic plays
-Remove unhook cancel from survs:
There are survs that use unhook cancel to trap a hooked surv, preventing others from saving, in addition, by removing the
grab hooks by killers it no longer makes sense for this mechanic to exist
-Option to surrender when in the dying state when there are only two survivors alive: it is very common to see killers who leave one survivor in the dying state and look for the other to get 4 kills, to prevent the fallen survivor from waiting to end a lost match , he could give up the match without being penalized, because a bot will replace him in this situation
-killers shouldn't know that there are bots in the match
-Buff on "Blood echo" perk: could activate when generators were completed, increasing the chance of affecting players injured during a chase
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I just want some different emotes. This could be for both sides too.
To add on to the hype I am excited for the changes. I will keep playing on both the sides and enjoy. Keep up the work on the game trying to fix things to fit everyone’s expectations is incredibly hard.
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I take it back. As long as the 4 survivors are simply trying there is not enough time to stop them with most killers.
One good chase and 3 gens down. Definitely looks like they should buff survivors right.
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