How would you turn these low tier killers to high tier killers?
Trapper, Myers, Clown, Freddy, Wraith, Pig and Legion.
Comments
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You can't.
All of these killers are suffering from strong maps. But these maps are exists because of high and anti-loop killers. Balancing maps around m1 killers would break all B and higher killers.
So only solution would be to giving them some good anti-loop.
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I wouldn't call wraith a low tier, maybe a low mid tier but definitely not a low tier. For the rest of the killer's, they'd need complete reworks to actually make them viable. Freddy, Trapper, and Myers come to mind.
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Can't without making them insanely unfun to vs.
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By slowly tuning them up step by step.
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There's no way to make them high tier by just cranking up some numbers or add an additional effect. Only real exception here is Wraith who I believe is already pretty solid.
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I have a concept for a Freddy change. It would make him more fun, strong and unique.
But reach the highest of tiers? That is very unlikely.
EDIT: Just realized I didn't actually say what my proposal was. I'm leaving it here if anyone would like to see it and offer feedback. A respectful debate is always welcome.
Power: Dream Demon
Pull survivors into the Dream World
-Survivors who are awake do not see The Nightmare.
-Once targeted by The Nightmare’s power, survivors enter the Dream Transition for 7 seconds.
-During the Dream Transition Survivors can see The Nightmare intermittently and they suffer from the Incapacitated status effect.
-When the Dream Transition Lapse, the Survivor is pulled into the Dream World.
Once in the Dream World:
-Survivor’s auras are revealed to The Nightmare when they are outside of his terror radius.
-Survivors suffer an action speed penalty of 50%.
-To exit the Dream World, Survivors can find non-sleeping Survivors to perform a wake up action.
-Failed Skill Checks can also wake up.
-Hooked Survivors wake up.
Special Ability: Dream Projection
-Teleport to a Generator in view. Releasing the button early will cancel the action.
-Survivors cannot interact with the targeted Generator.
“You have nothing to worry about. This won’t hurt one… little… bit.” -Freddy Krueger
Post edited by GeneralV on1 -
Trapper should have Bloody Coil and Trapper Sack (without downside) basekit, but even with this he will be mid tier killer.
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I think Clown and Wraith are much stronger than some people give them credit. And Myers too, if you count his busted add-ons.
But I don't think any of these Killers need to be high tier. They could use some buffs, though.
Pig needs to be able to move faster while crouching.
Trapper should have Trapper Bag and Lengthened Jaws as base kit, imho.
And for my Legion, I'd like base-kit 12 second Frenzy so I can free up an add-on slot for something that's not Mischief List. And Frank's Mix Tape could be made a base-kit part of their power too. For a purple add-on, it's pretty feeble and I never use it.
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Trapper spawns with all 10 traps, sets them much much faster, and it now takes 10 seconds to disarm a trap
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Trapper: He should be able to carry traps from the beginning of the game or the Iridescent stone add on where his disarmed traps reset automatically after some time should be basekit. His Power is fine it's just he wastes too much time setting traps and resetting them.
Myers: Needs a rework IMO, he's so weak in Tier 1 to the point his "stealth" play style is detrimental, and his Tier 3 is just a worse Oni Blood fury.
Clown: Idk to be honest, maybe direct hits with bottles have an additional effect?
Freddy: Entirely new Power is needed, he's a dream demon who can control everything while in the dream world and the best thing they came up with is red puddles?
Wraith: He's fine honestly
Legion: It's too hard to get 5 consecutive frenzy hits, give them better map traversal but make them easier to outplay in chase. I'd also replace deep wound with a different status effect, Mending is not fun. Maybe frenzy hits inflict a small hindered effect that is removed when healed?
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To be honest most of them are fine. Radical changes would be needed to make them high-tier.
People still use them and win given their expertise or the add-ons / builds their use.
Of all Freddy stands out as he requires a complete rework.
Myers does not require a complete rework as opposed to many people believe - he just needs different / better add-ons so that people do not rely on the Tier 3 enhancing ones too much.
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Yes, that is a point that has been brought to my attention before.
I hesitate to change this value because the slowdown relies on you being asleep. If you wake up, it is gone. But, due to obvious reasons, this has not been tested with the new slowdown perks introduced into the game since July of 2019.
Hmmm, this is a topic for discussion. Would 40% suffice? It has been suggested before.
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I'll try to be very generous with these changes, since the goal is to turn them into high tiers not balance them. But not go too crazy and turn everyone into nurse.
Trapper: all traps spawn somewhat near generators, like alien/sadako's power. You could even predefine good trap spots for loop tiles. But with enough range that they are not predictable. The traps also start armed. Now trapper doesn't have to travel as far to pick up his power and starts with it already active (some amount of slowdown+lethality at the start). I don't think this on its own would make him high tier though, so you'd probably have to do something else to give him a bit of mobility. I suggest a 10% haste buff for 10 seconds when a survivor gets caught in a trap, so you can make it over there in time, and increase the time it takes for survivors to rescue others from traps.
Myers: 110% at tier 1 with 75% lunge instead of the pathetic lunge he has now. Stalking now works if you can see even one pixel of the survivor's model instead of a set percentage of it. Survivors no longer run out of stalk, and stalk drop-off over distance mechanic is reduced significantly. Basekit brutal strength+fire up for tier 3 as well as 5% haste for 5 seconds on reaching a higher tier. Additionally, myers has tombstone mori basekit on survivors who have already been hooked twice (why not). Now he doesn't start as slow, is very lethal, and can properly punish teams if even one person messes up.
Clown: Basekit bottles up to 8. Decrease base reload speed and increase movement speed while reloading. Direct hits with bottles apply an additional 5% slow to survivors. Invigoration lasts 2 seconds longer and gets 2.5% bonus movespeed. Now Clown has a somewhat reliable traversal and slightly better chase than before.
Freddy: Survivors get closer to falling asleep every time Freddy hits a different survivor with his melee weapon. Same for hooking a survivor. The "golden" 30 seconds from the clocks now instantly disappear if Freddy hits you once. Increase clock usage time for waking up significantly. Adrenaline no longer wakes sleeping survivors. When all survivors are asleep, Freddy has no cooldown on his teleport. For each asleep survivor, Freddy gets +1 dream snare and snares slow for 1% more. Dream pallets now spawn over time naturally with a spawnrate based on how many survivors are asleep.
Wraith: Wraith is more of a low tier than a mid tier, but here's what I would do. Increase post-uncloak movespeed and lunge bonus. Wraith can pick up downed survivors and hook them while cloaked. The range to hear wraith's breathing and his fully-uncloaked whoosh are reduced. Bonus stun time from stunning cloaked wraith removed. Now his chase is better, he can play pallets with pallet control and he's somewhat stealthier.
Pig: Increase crouched movement speed to 95% (from 3.6m/s to 3.8m/s). Ambush dash duration increase to 3 seconds and charge time decrease to 0.5 seconds, decrease time to place head trap from 3.3 to 1 second. Increase jigsaw boxes on the map to 7, survivors now must do 5 boxes exactly, but trap timer is increased by 1 minute. Doing generator repairs with a bear trap on your head will activate it. Now the Pig's ambush in chase is actually a threat and she can utilize it if given pallet control (like Midwich, but now works on most maps). Additionally, having to search 5 boxes per trap means Pig gets a lot of base slowdown per trap which is insane.
Legion: lethal hit at 4th slash instead of 5th, +10 second base duration for feral frenzy, and killer instinct revealed while using power, no hit required. That's it. Legion now has the best tracking in the game and enough duration to constantly hit 4 chains, requiring survivors to bodyblock (giving little distance in a lethal chase) or waste a pallet. FF is now lethal enough that survivors have to play around it, and a big map won't stop Legion from punishing a mistake.
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Paint Brush?
As in:
This Red Paint Brush?
Why would that be busted?
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Ah, I see.
I had forgotten the effects of the new one, actually.
But don't worry. If it was up to me, the change would come with an add-on pass. I have it ready, just didn't post it here because it is a lot of information for a single comment. Though I can add it, if you'd like.
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I agree for the most part. But I don't think an anti loop power alone will be enough to transform a killer to high tier. What I consider high tier may differ from you but I think of A tier killers as the sweet spot of balance (or at least pretty close to it) and when you have a look at killers we generally agree upon to be A tier, you'll find that all of them do have one more thing to set them apart from their B tier contenders.
Wesker has can use his power for mobility and also use it as a slight slowdown, Huntress and Artist have the ability to pressure survivors across the map, which can more than make up for their lack of mobility, Plague puts you in a rough situation where you need to decide between staying injured all game or giving her the arguably strongest chasing tool in the entire game, Oni has the ability to play explosive and start slugging as well as mobility, Xeno has one of the best mobility powers in the game, an inbuilt slowdown mechanic (turrest) and a tracking ability and Pyramid Head can save a bit of time by putting you in a cage (adds up, if he can do often) and is the scariest tunneler of them all on top.
This is what in my opinion grants them the upper hand over killers like Bubba, who focus solely on one thing.
Post edited by Xernoton on2 -
Alright then.
Tell me if you change your mind. I always happy to share my ideas.
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Some of these killers are impossible to make “high-tier” simply because they don’t have any reliable movement. And that’s fine, not all killers need to be Nurse. They can use some tuning tho. Lots of these killers are add-on reliant like Legion, Myers and Trapper. Pig and Freddy would be the only killers I think need the biggest help. Parts of their kits are too limited to be of any help.
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Define high tier killer.
If you mean overpowered like Nurse, here are some (silly) suggestions:
- Trapper starts with all his traps. Iristone and Honingstone basekit.
- Myers can stalk infinitly and distance wont effect him. Once he reached tier 3 it stays permanently. J.Myers Memorial basekit. Enduring at T3 basekit.
- Clown has infinite bottles. After every direct hit he gains 3% movement speed.
- Freddys teleport takes only 2 seconds and he can reverse his teleport 5 seconds after the action. Snares slow down for an extra 2 seconds. Once in Dreamworld, there is no way out of that.
- Wraith has no movementspeed penalty while uncloaking. Cloaked he can see the aura of survivors within 24 meters.
- Pig's dash is 30% faster and has double the range. She can jump over pallets while dashing. Her stealth is 110% movement speed. Wait, thats actually Chucky.
- Legion downs the 2nd survivor they attack with feral frenzy.
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he is just describing old freddy. in case your wondering, freddy dream world used to have -50% repair penalty, healing and exit gate opening. you had to fail a skill-check to wake up or have a teammate wake you up. most people used skill-check to wake themselves up which is why experienced freddy used an add-on that decreases your chance to get a skill-check. You know how Hyperfocus increases your odds to get skill-check? Well he had add-on that did exact opposite. they reduced your odds to get skill-checks preventing you from waking up.I think it was those green and yellow dress add-on's that now give that hex:lullaby effect of increasing fail skill-check penalty. That is how you kept people in dream world.
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Yes, A and S tier killers can win most games. B-tier killers are mostly fine but they can get some minor buffs and some good add-ons. Problem comes with C and below.
We really can't balance game around them because then your other killers will be buffed too. It's really hard to balance game around m1 killers. But they can buff their base-kits with some anti-loop powers. Some of them will be better.
Like for example; Sadako has good map pressure and she also coming with good second objective. All she needs better stealth or better anti-loop. Pig has amazing second objective which gives her amazing slowdown. But her anti-loop is so garbage. And she has zero mobility. So maybe making her better in chase in solution. Clown has amazing anti-chase but no map pressure or mobility. His problem is that. Maybe some mobility is answer?
We need to look to all weak killers one by one and fix their issues. Trapper is on other hand... I don't think anything can make him feel better. Every map rework makes him even worse to play and all of new maps are making him worse. His traps should not have default colour. Colour should just change based on maps.
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They did with Trapper, that now he can lock down 10 loops and setup trap at pallet to force survivors leave loops and catch them with Haste.
And I dont like it.
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The Trapper definitely needs to start with all of his traps at the very least. As far as making him high tier?
Mm…
- Trapper Sack basekit
- Tension Spring basekit
- Secondary Coil basekit
- Making his traps inflict one damage state instead of only injury. Injured Survivors should go into a dying state when caught.
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There is a difference between making Trapper A tier, and unbalanaced/unhealthy game play
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Don't underestimate Pig's anti loop. It's not great, but she can play around some pretty save loops. It would go a long way to raise her movement speed while crouched to 102% (slightly faster than a survivor, so leaving the loop doesn't become the go to strategy against her). That's really all I think she needs in terms of buffs. Maybe some of her addons could use some slight changes too. As a compensation they could make it impossible for survivors to die to a reversed bear trap while they are searching a box but that is debatable.
I am unsure of what to do with Sadako to be honest. If the survivors play very well, then she falls off. But most survivors have trouble keeping up with her constand pressure, so making her stronger in chase would really hurt them. With her, the devs are in a bit of a pickle, I fear. Maybe we should wait for her upcoming changes before we think about that too much. They have said, they wanted to bring her closer to her original design after all.
For Clown, I would like to see one or two more bottles base kit. He should be encouraged to use the yellow bottles for mobility in my opinion. As it is, he won't do that very often because then he doesn't have enough bottles in chase.
I like your idea for Trapper very much but I'm not sure how that would work. They would need to find a good middle ground of his traps being hard but also not impossible to spot. Maybe they could also be slightly increased in size and this whole thing with vaulting over traps could be looked at. With that I think Trapper could be in a pretty good spot. Not A tier level but very decent.
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You’re right. In my mind that was my way of making him OP.
In reality I think just Trapper Sack should be basekit.
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bvhr doesn't balance maps. they balance killer power to play on said maps. those killer are bad because their power is not good enough to play on bvhr's map design. BVHR is lazy to buff killer powers because whenever they do buff a killer power, they get freddy'd nerfed to be ineffective.
they have to look at every individual killer and buff their numbers or remove drawbacks from the ability till the power is good.
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Wraith is actually ok although I wouldn’t mind if he got minor numbers tweak.
Legion needs to be able to see scratch marks and pools of blood in frenzy.
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Clown and Wraith could probably be made better via number buffs pretty easily.
If a revert to old Freddy is off the table, I'd like for him to be able to use both snares and pallets at the same time and rebuff how many of each he can have out at a time. Also the man desperately needs an addon pass.
The others... the problem with them is that their powers all can inflict more than just a health state if not properly countered. Which means they need to be easier to counter than most other killers. Which means they fall off hard once Survivors know what's up. And buffing them to be harder to counter can cause serious issues.
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