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I'm back and its time for a real conversation about what swf does to this game
Here are the facts. Being in a swf grants a certain number of advantages. I'm not going into that now because its been discussed extensively on these forums. Also this isnt a conversation of imbalances between all the killers which is an issue outside of what i want to talk about.
Heres how this effects this game. The pecking order is this. Solo q<killer<swf. That means that solo q suffers because of the advantages that swf hold over killer. If killer would like to chill out and test builds for fun they are shut down because of efficiency of swfs. No room for fun builds. So if the killer wants to be able to win they must bring meta and/or play dirty.
That doesnt mean that killer has a guaranteed win over well-coordinated swfs, but that does guarntee a stomp vs solo q. So both killer and solo q are held hostage to swfs who want to optimally sweat their butts off.
There is no compensation for this. They get assumed free coms and gen and perk coordination. Which compared to a solo q team is an insane difference.
I argue this more for solo q then killer. As killer if I sweat my ass off and bring perks/play dirty I'm usually guaranteed a 2k at min. not including those crazy coordinated team which can result in a loss. As solo q this means that most killers either tunnel me out or tunnel someone else out early on and guarntee that the lack of coordination or perks geared in teams using busted stuff is going to result in the killers wiping the team.
The fix is to add a disadvantage to swf. No this doesnt mean punish people who want to play with their friends. This does mean that there needs to be a acknowledgement that you have an advantage over solo q and are going to accept a penalty to bring you to solo q levels. This level should be the base relationship between the killer role and survivor role.
These should be experimented on to determine what nerfs to swf should make them equivalent to soloq. This means that the results of swf should be tracked compared to solo. Go slow. Make sure its not anything insane.
This should go in the opposite direction as well. If the nerfs in fact bring swf to solo q levels then the tools killer uses to counter well-coordinated swfs should be nerfed as well.
Swf mains are going to complain and argue so they maintain their position to be able to bully killers but this needs to be counteracted with information gained through the difference between solo q and swf.
In conclusion there are extremes to this game that hold the opposite hostage because of their advantage. This instance is Swf holds solo q hostage because of their heavy advantage forces killers to play dirty or run busted build over all teams including teams that are unable to handle it like solo q.
There are other conversations on the opposite end that need to be talked about. How nurse and blight and other busted killer builds make survivors feel like that they need to be in a swf to survive them.
However as of right now swf is top dog and needs to be addressed first.
All I want is the extremes to be brought in so that we all can enjoy the game in spite of the sweaty players. Please be productive if you are adding to the conversation.
Edit: The bast conversations I've seen against this are people shouldnt be punished for playing with friends. These same people are ok with punishing people for not playing with friends. This is the take away.
Comments
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But people aren't doing anything wrong. You shouldn't be punished just because you wanna play with your friends.
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Its not about doing anything wrong or right. Its about balance. Which if you are playing with a team guarantees you have an advantage over killer and in conjunction solo q. Those killers shouldn't be punished just because they want to play killer. See how that works the opposite way?
Which negatively impacts solo q because those killers impacted have nothing to tell them they are about to be at a disadvantage to the survivors. So they bring perks or a playstyle to counter them that could be used to smear solo q teams that didnt have that advantage in the first place.
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Punishing people for playing with their friends will never work. I will never for the life of me understand how people can say they think the game should be a non-competitive, relaxing experience where they can experiment with builds, and then in the same breathe suggest players should be punished for playing with friends. Say it out loud. It doesn't make sense.
You don't know that you went against a SWF most of the time. It's a duo half the time, with an actual 4 man being less than 10% of all matches. Want to punish duos or trios? You're punishing solos too at that point. People who had nothing to do with SWF.
SWF is not a bully simulator. Not if the killer is good and matchmaking did its job. SWF is not the reason someone gets less than 6 hooks in an entire game.
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Your post is riddled with false equivalency fallacy.
You saying “playing with friends needs to be addressed” is wild. Yea… let’s punish people for playing with friends… not a great look.
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This is a completely disingenuous conversation point. Because it doesn't take into fact that you are now punishing killers for not knowing they are taking disadvantage playing against the survivor team. Its not about whether or not the killer wants to experiment with their build or not. Its the fact that they cannot if they expect to win. Say it out loud. It doesn't make sense.
You don't know that you went against a swf or any combo at the time. So how do you know the coordination levels when starting to make your build before the match?
SWF can indeed be a bully sim and most people who ignore facts refuse to acknowledge this as a factor. Swf undoubtedly can be a factor in why you didnt get a certain amount of hooks in a match. Anyone arguing to the contrary are disingenuous period.
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From what I've noticed of their changes over the years, it's plain to me they do not balance the game around either extreme of the playerbase.
Nor do they wish to impose any crazy tourney limitations on anyone, preferring players to run what they like for builds.
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Once again Its about balance not about feeling like you are being penalized. Thats why I said take it slow and add changes to it that are not crazy. I 100% agree about the map stuff and anything to bring solo q more aligned with swf. However swf in of it self bring the game away from that horror atrmo that you are talking about.
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See this is exactly what I'm talking about. You hide behind your gameplay experience and deny others. This is that self centered mentality I'm talking about. You assume just because you play with friends it should automatically allow you an advantage over all the other players in the game. Its selfish to both the killers you face and the solo q teams that have to face the builds and playstyles those killers use to compensate for said teams. The fact you cant see that says everything about how you play survivor
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But killers aren't punished because people wanted to play with friends. SWF groups like the legendary Depip Squad are extremely rare, and you're unlikely to see one of those.
Most of the time, SWFs are just friends chilling and talking about something else. Usually you don't even know they are there.
Today, for example, I played against against a 3 man SWF. Matching names and all. Guess what, the match played the exact same as it would've with four Solo players. And I even managed to kill all 4 survivors. While playing Freddy. With Third Seal.
Did those players deserve a punishment? Did I find myself with a huge disadvantage?
No, definitely not.
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Nah dude I'm talking not about those legendary depip squads. This applies to base line swf. If they want to throw their hat into playing together then they need to understand that by itself grants them an advantage over those who didnt get together to play the game. I also dont care about those teams that want to screw around because at the end of the day the minor base line changes shouldnt mess with them.
So I ask you those killer show went in with a fun build and got destroyed for not playing sweaty at the start or running meta at the start. Did those players deserve a punishment? Did they I find myself with a huge disadvantage? Absolutely
Then for those killers that experience that bs. Guess what. Those casual players in solo q that you are referring to have to deal with killers that feel like they have to deal with sweaty teams. Which is bs.
So the minority hold advantage over both killer and solo q. Which is bs
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I addressed this. Go slow make changes minor so to teams that want to just hang its not that big of a deal. Its like the anit camp. Did it stop camping? no. but it stopped the dumb egregious examples. same concept.
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Yea.. me… the killer main. Right.
1) SWF does not automatically give advantage. Many of them aren’t on comms. Many of them die to altruism. Many of them are no better than your average solo team.
2) false equivalencies. You think killers bring the builds they bring because of SWF’s? Lmao. Killers who want to win, are going to bring their win build regardless if it’s a swf or not.
3) You wanting swf nerfed says a lot about how you play killer.. you said “solo q is a guaranteed stomp”. But you want swf nerfed down… do you only want to stomp in every match?
4) There is a ton of copium with killers and “SWF”. God forbid a solo q team smacks you.. it HAS to be a SWF because they beat you. The amount of times I’ve seen in chat, killers refusing to believe we were solo. It’s such a scapegoat term when you need a reason why you lost.
Lastly, SWF will never be nerfed. You cannot punish people for playing with friends. It’s already been made clear that’s not on the agenda, so work on your own gameplay and overcome the challenge of these big scary SWF’s.
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The thing is, mate, I am the killer that doesn't play sweaty. I am the solo queue survivor in the lobby. That is how I play DBD.
And no, I don't want the SWF groups that I encounter to be punished because they dared to play with friends. Like I said, the average SWF squad doesn't have a huge advantage over everyone else. Or perhaps you can argue that they have, in theory, but they don't use it.
It is just people playing with friends, nothing more. Punishing people for doing that will be extremely detrimental for the game.
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BHVR will never, ever punish people for playing with friends. Which, yes. giving them a penalty would do that. This is a multiplayer game, first and foremost. Imagine any other game imposing some sort of disadvantage just becasue you're playing with your friends? I'm not saying SWF doesn't give an advantage - it does, but it would do the same in any other game. Playing with your friends is always gonna be better than playing with a bunch of randos. However, most of the time, you don't even know you're playing against a SWF, because this game is mostly casual.
This has been talked about for as long I've been apart of this community, and the answer is always no - BHVR won't do anything about it. If people playing with their friends bothers you so much, you shouldn't be playing multiplayer games.
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Uh huh lets go through this then.
1) Swf auto guarantees you know the quality of your teammates. That by itself disproves your point. Coms are a bonus, and a heavy one at that. Many of the sweaty teams understand the concept of over altruism and will play against the killers expectation of playing into it. Those who would be in no better of a position as compared to a solo q team still stand at a disadvantage because these killers play with the expectation to play against a well-coordinated swf. So zero points there.
2) Yes I addressed this already but you ignored it because you obviously are biased. Those are indeed issues but you cant take away killers tools to counter the teams i'm talking about if they are still not balanced. You must take it away from the most powerful role which undoubtedly is swf. Side note I love how you try to say false equivalencies when both sides are guilty. Survivors will do this to in the opposite direction because of the most powerful denominator. Which are high level swfs.
3) There you go you showed your hand and proved you didnt read the whole thread. I said the base line of this is that solo q is left behind. I'm fine as a killer, slightly annoyed, but not ok as a solo q survivor. So if I want swf nerfed to solo q I also want the killer aspects nerfed that were used to compensate to said swfs.
4) then here is the issue with the devs. Killers have no concept to wether or not they are facing solo q or a swf. This should be addressed in end game. I wonder why its not.
In conclusion. The swfs that are messing around and having fun will not be effected by minor tweaks that prevent slamming through objective because they werent planning on slamming through them in the first place. So why do you feel the need to defend the discrepancy between top level of swf play and base solo q? I can tell you why. You dont want to lose your advantage. Checkmate.
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Well heres the main issue, mate, I play not sweaty with fun builds, but there are games that I lost because I faced teams who will play sweaty that are leagues beyond the teams that I stomp in succession. So when this happens I'm obliged to play with better builds and play dirty to counter teams that will play like this. I do not like playing like this but I feel like it is a necessity to do so.
And yes I do want swf to know that they will be taking a penalty for playing with advantage so that they will take the advantage. That way the outliers are no longer outliers and are taken into account. You are full of it if you think that swfs dont have an advantage over solo. They have it solo q just baseline. Just with the fact that they know who they are teaming with and their skill level or whether they are not going to give up on first down or one hook themselves. Thats base line. Not all the other advantages that swf enjoys.
The thing I find insulting is that you are unable to accept the fact that swfs should take a ding for playing with friends but are ok with solo q taking the hit for choosing to play solo q. When they are undoubtedly the bottom of the ladder.
Post edited by Rizzo on0 -
I only have friends that I made playing the game. Therefore, we never met in real life and can't communicate via discord. Should we be punished too when we play together?
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Heres the main issue though. BHVR have always said that camping and tunneling have been valid strats and they still made measures to prevent the most egregious examples of it. Has it stopped camping and tunneling? No. As it shouldnt have. The same can and should be done with swf.
If you had the option to play solo or with friends and there was no difference then you will still choose to play with friends. Period
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Yes because you know their skill level. I'm not saying anything crazy but you still have a sizeable advantage over solo because you know their skill level.
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Got it I cant play with my friends because it inconveniences you. If there is an online MULTIPLAYER game I cant play with my friends I'm 100% not playing it.
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Got it so if I dont have people to play with on the game that I like I should be placed at a disadvantage to people who do. If thers an online multiplayer it should favor those who can play with friends not those who cannot.
In all seriousness if you were brought to the level of solo q with your friends, what have you lost? I'm asking for a balance between the two and all you are hearing is that you are taking a ding because you can have an advantage by playing with people you know.
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You don't have to change your build nor playstyle because you lost a single game. I don't play sweaty because I don't like it, and it doesn't matter if I get stomped once or twice. This is entirely a "you problem". Besides, if you can "stomp teams in succession", then an individual playing with friends shouldn't scare you that much.
Everyone else is saying it: BHVR will not punish people for playing with friends. Not only is it unfair and unnecessary, but many players would actually leave if that happened.
And you call me a hypocrite? Really? Wow, what great hypocrisy to think players shouldn't be punished for daring to play with friends.
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The only way to balance it is to make solo q as close to swf as possible imagine buying any other multiplayer game and you cant join your friends which are probably the reason you bought the game in the first place. Just because you CHOOSE to play the solo role shouldn't gate keep others from enjoying the game. If you think solo q is enjoyable well then there's a whole other topic to discuss.
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Thats just it and thats the thing you do not understand. Its not I feel like I have to change my build because I lost a single game. Its I'm losing multiple games because I want to use unique fun build and the survivors are using optimal builds on multiple occasions. I dont want to stomp every team.
All I would want as a killer is to know the fault is entirely on me. However with the discrepancy between solo q and swf and the lack of knowledge on whether or not I'm facing a swf. I have no discourse then to assume that the team is just bringing better stuff then me and bringing outside help to get and advantage that solo q does not have. So in turn I will bring the good stuff and play dirty to counter those teams. Which screws over solo teams who will face the wrath that those killers have for teams that deserve it.
Very simply Optimal Swf creates optimal killer who screws over unopimal swf killer and solo q. It is not a difficult concept to understand.
I want all players to be on a level playing field.
Post edited by BoxGhost on1 -
You are looking at it from only the one side though.
Just because you choose to play swf shouldn't gate keep others from enjoying the game.
What if players dont have others to play with? Your advantage shouldnt make their experience worse. See what I mean?
For context. A optimal swf will stomp a suboptimal killer who will then use an optimal build to stomp solo q. Solo q is the victim of swfs advantage, yet you are saying its not fair to bring swf down to solo q's level because the ones on top would be inconvenienced.
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Yes you are a hypocrite for thinking that its ok to defend people who just want to play with friends while leaving those who are unable to behind. That aspect indeed makes you a hypocrite. I dont say that to insult only If you were to grow to understand why that is a thing maybe we could advance the conversation.
This is very clearly an insult, not to mention disproportional to my actions. If you won't keep a respectful discussion, then I see no reason to continue.
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Because from a business aspect remember this is still a business. There is no money in a game no one wants to play. If you remove multiplayer with friends from a multiplayer game no one will play it. Killers have more then enough weapons at they're disposal. If your having trouble with swfs and your not on a comp team or at max mmr then you just need to play more and get better.
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Incorrect. It is not an insult. merely pointing out a fact. If you cant see how you are being hypocritical thats on you.
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I think there is no easy conversation when it comes to swf vs solo queue. On one hand, people will echo the “Can’t nerf friends” point (If I had a dollar every time someone said it, I would be rich), but on the other hand, suggestions for everyone to be given ingame comms are shot down because of various reasons.
Then people go on about adding this basekit, that basekit to “bridge the gap between solo queue and swf” when supposedly swf and solo queue are not that wide apart in overall performance level to begin with (Chill swf, swf without comms etc)
It just seems like there is no real solution to the swf vs solo queue vs killer triangle. The harshest solutions are shot down, the base kit solutions either seem to not have a major impact on resolving the disparity or might end up creating a whole new problem to deal with. It just seems like there’s no end to the discussion and no one has any viable solution that can satisfy everyone. Since no one has any viable answer, people just buckle down and defend whichever point they prefer because there isn’t a better alternative.
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😆
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All games are balanced around skilled players except dbd. The devs care more about letting people meme and bully killers than they do a balanced game.
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Despite the debate here, I'd like to at least say I'd prefer if solo queue players had a +50% bonus that stacks on top of anything else.
The result? 4 things.
1. Genuine solo queue players are at least compensated for their inherent t disadvantage.
2. Players who might typically SWF may more tempted to just play solo queue. This would reduce the amount of swfs that already inherently have an advantage over killers.
3. It wouldn't affect people who still prefer to swf regardless. It'll still play as normal for them with no changes.
While BHVR will never punish players for playing with their friends, we can at least add an incentive to have the amount of SWFing reduced without punishing ANYONE.
As for 4...it is a downside
4. There might be less killers available to play. I don't really have anyone to play with dbd, and solo is sucky, so killer works for me. However, I might be inclined to solo queue more if there was an incentive to do so.
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I don’t think the bloodpoint bonus will effect SWFs that much since in most of the SWFS that I play in we usually stack Blood Party Streamers although not sure about other SWF players I’m only speaking from my experience on it
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💐
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4 people swf is the rarest combination in the game (and most of them are not try-harders)
3 people swf are always playing with one solo and 2 people swf are either playing with two solos or an other swf they can't communicate with.
Even if we pretend what you're suggesting isn't punishing people for playing with friends (or that it's fine if it is), you'll also be punishing solos because in most cases they're playing alongside swfs. The only people benefitting from this would be killers.
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These arguments about punishing people because they have friends is so entitled and laughable. I can't imagine seeing posts like this on any other gaming forum. How embarrassing and unhinged has this community become...
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Thats the problem. Thats why swf cant be nerfed. Some people just want to play with their friends and goof around. Not everyone enbraces discord in the most cringe and anti-grass-touching way possible.
I do agree with OP on the matter however, that almost all other parties in the game suffer because of the advantages, swf provides. Against a swf, where everyone is a good looper, all are on comms and everyone wants to win the hardest (brings best loadout, greeds gens and spreads on gens) most killers in this game cant keep up BY A LONG SHOT.
Ive had games as pig against some of these guys where i didnt even got one hook. It was this ridiculous. Then i challenged them to play on my turf (midwich), they agreed and we played a custom. I didnt hold back. I brought lethal and corrupt just to get my first down in under 4 gens. Jigsaw sketch and tempered timer did the rest. I barely got 2 kills (with 3 hooks if i remember correctly).
This build (lethal, corrupt, deadlock and stbfl + crate of gears/jigsaw sketch + tempered timer + midwich offering) is almost the strongest a pig can bring in my opinion. I very rarely bring it, because it gets pretty boring. I kill most groups at 3 - 4 gens remaining. Against these guys it wasnt strong at all.
What could be done is to give the killer some information on what they are facing. Yes, this would encourage lobby dodging, but there is no other fair possibility. If the killer knows in the pre game lobby, they can arrange their kit accordingly for the advantage a strong 4man swf has.
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What would you propose to bring killer in line without making soloq impossible to play? Or making the playercount fall? Swf cant be nerfed. Its directly linked to the games playerbase. This is the red line in terms of balancing.
Also, what are skilled players in this game anyways? The "best" players are people that predrop pallets left and right, embrace shift w, scream on discord about how unfair that hit was and greed gens. On killers, its your regular pubstomping Nurse or Blight. Mostly the tunneling ones with map offerings, a ton of slowdown and some overpowered addons just to make things as simple as possible for them. DBD balancing goes further than just nerfing swf or Nurse. Its making tiles fairer. Its making maps fairer. Its making addons, items and killer powers fairer.
But what do you get at the end of the day? Flat lands with every player playing the exact same boring way. The more dbd gets "balanced" the more it loses unique aspects that make us enjoy the game for what it is.
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As a 100% soloq player I'd be happy if SWFs didn't exist, but that game isn't built around me. SWFs aren't going anywhere and BHVR isn't going to put additional requirements on them.
Four main reasons:
1: The gap between an average SWF and a clock call out team is immense. If you tried to bring average SWFs down to even the game change would be very minor and wouldn't impact the higher level SWFs in any meaningful way.
2: Average SWFs frequently have players of differing skill levels. This means the advantage they gain from communication is offset by the team strength.
3: It's not worth BHVR's time. There are far more important issues with overall game balance than continually adjusting the SWF handicap.
4: It would financially be the wrong move. If the idea of a handicap had been present from the moment SWFs were introduced, maybe, but at this point it would be a massive turn off to the community.
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I do disagree with those who say its a penalty, unfair, or unlike any other game. As a SWF you gain advantages, realistically having them offset isn't a penalty (as I mentioned above the problem is that different SWFs have very different levels of advantages). As for other games, the difference is that the killer doesn't have any friends they can bring into the game. The issues of comms is totally a one sided issue.
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I maintain the best way to deal with this is tell the killer who's grouped in the lobby, and give them a pretty generous bloodpoint bonus (static amount or multiplier) for each player in a group. Then it will be up to the killer if they'd like to play a fair game or get a lot of bloodpoints.
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SWF will always have an advantage over solo Q. This will always be true no matter what nerfs you decide to put in.
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Sounds good.
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Solo q players aren't doing anything wrong (they probably are lol.) Solo q players shouldn't be punished for playing solo. Although I don't agree with OPs post I do think they need to change MMR to reflect survivor performance during the match and not outcome. When I regularly have multiple games in a row with someone going down fast and killing themself on hook, not even accounting for players that just refuse to play the objective. The game really has no meaning anymore from my solo q perspective.
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The team i am playing with is probably less dangerous then many solo lobbies 😂
We talk a lot about RL stuff during rounds, Totems get cleansed and Chest plundered (i am by far the most sweaty of the team and me complaining about stuff like that is already a running joke at this point).
On the other hand, i can pinpoint the last time i ran into a complete tryhard swat gang. It was in 2018 or 19 on old Ormond when i played Myers. I was inexperienced with killer, especially with Myers and they made me look like a Clown.
It is funny that i remember this ONE game where i got destroyed so hard, but the memoeries of the 1000 wins since then where i stomped survivors are mainly lost in time.
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SWF is and will be untouchable but I understand what you're trying to say.
There's nothing wrong with playing with friends but in balance wise when all 4 survivors are skillful and experienced, SWF is ecosystem destroyer in DbD.
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We're going to explain how we see it from our eyes.
You wish to nerf SWFs due the extreme end they CAN be with the advantages they have outside the actual game. We don't deny that even casual SWFs have an advantage, but most the advantages come, again, outside the game.
What you proposed to add a disadvantage to people playing in SWFs (didn't specify duos, tris, or the full team) which IS punishing playing with friends (you can word it all you like, but this IS what it is). As others have pointed out numerous times, that's gonna go poorly. While we love a good experiment, we don't think this should be tested (this is our opinion though).
Now, you say the threat of SWF forces killers to sweat, but that's your opinion and one we don't believe is true, especially when we're playing killer with thematic/builds with restrictions and still don't feel the need to sweat until annoyed. Do we expect to win all the time? No, of course not as there ARE ppl better than us three. Will we think "SWF alert sweat time!" each time we think there's a SWF? Nope. And surprise, we still do well in our games.
Generally, whichever side tries harder is more likely to win. Being in a SWF doesn't guarantee a SWAT squad, nor does it guarantee that the killer will sweat bullets if they think they are facing one.
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This is why they need to create separate queues.
You create an "unranked "queue which is solo queue only, and can give killers more handicaps to weaken them and/or give survivors more buffs. Maybe in this mode for example the AFC works a bit harder, and the basekit BT lasts a bit longer, or maybe it makes them a bit faster. Maybe survivors get basekit kindred/bond for example or gens go back to 80 or even 70 seconds. This mode can also give bonus bloodpoints to both sides for playing more "fun"
Then you have a "ranked queue" which is where SWF can be. In this mode, you enable voice chat, so if you play it solo you can communicate. This mode can be balanced differently to give survivors more handicaps. Maybe gens take 100 seconds instead of 90. Maybe the penalty to working on gens together is high. Maybe killers get basekit corrupt or basekit noed (forcing the survivors to do some totems). Maybe the killer just moves 5% faster, or the survivors move at 95% speed instead of 100%. This one can give bonus bloodpoints for winning the game at all costs.
These are all just examples, but the point is, you split up the modes and balance them differently.
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The "you shouldn't expect to win all the time" thing goes both ways though.
Let me ask you question.
Do you think that blight player that is on a 1k+ win streak is fine?
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I don’t understand what’s so challenging about adding a voice chat in the survivor games. Just make it so only the survivors hear each other and the killer can’t hear anything. Don’t give me this excuse of breaking immersion cause one game actually does this better.
Texas Chainsaw Massacre game has built in voice chat for both sides but it’s balanced cause the family can’t hear the survivors talking only the survivor side can hear each other.
why can’t we just copy what TCM is doing and it will easily fix solo que
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Real sweaty SWFs are like 1% of the playerbase. Most people are just casually playing w/ their friends or completely solo (which is the majority of the playerbase). When a killer immediately blames SWF, its really just their ego that got hurt and consoling themselves. I've been accused of SWF many times and I never SWF. But people assume and throw accusations cause it makes them feel better.
In terms of balance, its hard to say. Everyone's brought up the same common ideas/options, but w/o punishing the players for playing with their friends, its incredibly difficult to achieve.
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