I disagree with devs about Solo-q
"We always monitor the difference between survivor groups (SWF and solo) and our current stance is that lack of information is not the crux of the problem, but rather that friends work together by nature and solo survivors don't (as much). -Mike"
Now, that's true. SWF teams will work together better and help each other more because they can coordinate better. That's why so much perks and builds are doing so good with SWF teams while they are mostly meh for solo survivors.
SWF teams even can plan their play style because they will simply tell each other whatever perks they are going to use. But solo survivors? You can't. Because your teammates don't know what perks you are going to use.
+ If they see you have We'll Make It, they will leave hook save to you.
+ If you see someone is using Power Struggle build, you can help them with baiting killer for a bit and then leave. Things like that so easy for SWFs but good luck to do in solo-q.
+ If you want to Head On killer to help your teammate when they are in chase, you just can't most times. In SWF, you will tell them you are in which locker but in solo-q, you just can't do that.
I can give more examples but that's good enough. Most perks and builds are viable for SWF but meh or dead for Solo-q.
And seriously HUD need 2 more icons:
- Show AFC progress to all survivors. So we will know killer is camping. That's something SWF can tell each other already.
- And sometimes you don't know who is going to save. Sure, you are seeing survivor is doing nothing and you are assuming they are going to save but you are clueless. It would be nice to know if we knew one survivor is going to save.
HUD was good change but looks like we are not getting anything else and this kinda upset. Those changes are not even big but would make solo play better.
I am not saying devs are ignoring solo survivors, i know they have limited time for so much work but if you don't give enough tools to survivors, ofcourse they can't help each other as much SWF teams does. It's not like solo survivors are selfish and only cares about themself. No. I am actually thinking most of them are pretty altruistic and team players but we have not enough tools to coordinate. That's the issue.
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information is not the crux of the problem, but rather that friends work together by nature and solo survivors don't (as much)I think the first part is correct, the second part is wrong / poorly stated. Things like planning their playstyle are critical (which you discuss), but I wouldn't say BHVR's answer discounts that.
Survivors do have the ability to chat pre-game, its just almost never used. And the rare times I've seen someone try and organize the survivors it has actually worked pretty well.
And seriously HUD need 2 more icons:Agree on the first, disagree on the second (though I'd only show the anti-facecamp when it hits certain threshholds). If you see someone off gens and not in chase when someone else is hooked, that person should be going for the save. Also don't know how you could get the HUD to detect what someone is doing, so we're talking about adding an emote/ping system for what people are doing.
I imagine one day they'll get there, but I prefer DBD on the survivor side with uncertainty.
If I was to add something to the HUD, I think Reassurance should also be shown.
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Survivors have pre-game chat for only PC players and only for a minute. They just can add perks into lobby and in game.
In lobby: Click survivor's name and see their perks.
In game: Click ESC and see what survivor have what perks.
This change would make solo-q so much better.
And yes, i am asking for ping system.
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Survivors have pre-game chat for only PC players and only for a minute. They just can add perks into lobby and in game.The point is I'm not sure how many people would use the feature. Yes, chat only exists for PC players, but its not like it gets used. If people aren't willing to chat I don't think they are going to spend that much time looking at other people's builds and making adjustments.
To be clear, its a feature I'd like. I would really like to know what perks the others are bringing. I'm just not sure it would have a huge overall impact on soloq wins/losses.
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I mean, we can't know will it help to solo-q or not before it happens right?
HUD icons for example. They pretty much changed Solo-q with better way. For example, i am seeing Nea's gen was so close to finish but she forced to leave gen. And i am looking for her gen to finish. Or i know Kate in chase, so i can stick on my gen.
So i am sure this would make solo-q better too. Ofcourse solo-q will never be close to SWF and that's imposible task anyway. SWF will always have more advantage because they know each other. But we can buff Solo-q (like my suggestion) to get them closer to SWFs.
And you can check your teammate perks anytime with my suggestion. So even if you did not check in lobby, you can check later in game.
Removing gasp between Solo and SWF as much as possible should the way to go.
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This comes across as horribly naive about human nature lol.
BHVR pretty much hit the nail on the head with their answer. There will be a limit to what they can do about soloQ because randoms will never care that much about other randoms. The amount of times I've gone to second stage on hook one, been knowingly sandbagged, been held hostage by hiding teammates, been left to die in endgame, etc is more than I can count.
Now don't get me wrong I don't think it's malicious but rather just apathetic. The average random just doesn't care about other average randoms because they just don't really have a reason to? And they're always gonna make their survival the priority and no amount of HUD changes are going to fix that.
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I don't think they did... Imagine all the things people in soloq would be capable of if they had the information... Sure they won't just straight up become better at looping, however they would know if someone is going for the unhook, they could callout their positions and which gens they are working on to prevent 3 gens, they could call out lit totems, or totem positions in general, in case they are currently unable to do them themselves and so on and so forth, all this leads to much more efficiency overall, and this is the major benefit, the working together is basically just because they know all this and are able to be more efficient...
For example the totem example.. One survivor calling it out but unable to do it and another one able to do it... How would you recreate this situation without communication? The teamwork is a result of the information spread... Which is why I think their statement is just plain wrong.
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It is kind of weird to first agree with their statement just to later basically prove the opposite with the examples you mention and even give solutions that involve more information for teammates... That's kind of like the flat earthers trying to proof the earth is flat and then accidentally proving it is round ^^ No offense there my man, but you literally just gave an example that involves lack of information as the crucial part as to why solos don't work together so well...
Lacking informations leads to less teamwork, it is as simple as that, so whether bhvr wants to admit or not it is the lacking information that's causing the missing teamwork... We can however debate what the direct cause of less success is... Because there are certainly some things that don't really need teamwork to do better as survivors, but others do... But overall the cause of both is basically the capability to spread information with your teammates...
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Nobody uses hexes anymore and you don't really need communication to avoid a 3 gen hell a lot of casual SWFs 3 gen anyway cuz they're not thinking about that that much.
I really don't understand this utopian thinking that everyone would just become perfect teammates if they had more information and could communicate more. Team games with randoms with voice chat are not new even in the asymm genre, you'd get good teammates maybe sometimes and the rest of the time will be teenagers yelling slurs at you lol.
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Maybe i worded it poorly.
I agree'd with them even if they make Solo-q and SWF equal by information-wise, SWF will perform better. Because 4 people who knows each other will play better than 4 randoms. That was only thing i agree'd. Except that, they are just wrong.
Solo survivors can perform so well too if they have good coordination.
I mostly disagree'd with them because they simply meant , even if they give tools to solos this won't change things because randoms are just not gonna help each other as SWFs. That's just wrong. There is a lot games i had we would win with better coordination.
Information is strong tool like you said. And my solo teammates are mostly altruistic and trying to help to team. So they are just wrong with that randoms are not gonna help each other as SWFs. We are suffering from lack of information, not selfish players. Sure selfish players are here and there but they are not majority, i am rarely seeing this type players.
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The hex totem was just a theoretical example, there are many more things you could communicate better, it being the killer having a specific perk or gen positions in general. I'm not saying you necessarily need it, but it sure as hell makes it easier... If all 4 survivors are good players, they won't 3 gen themselves, but if they are not it might just happen... Which is why if there is one guy in there telling them "don't do gen x, we will be 3 genned" then maybe they listen, maybe they don't but at least it increases their chances. And this type of stuff makes people more efficient, just like the one guy going for the unhook, when somebody lets go of the gen you cannot say for sure in every case whether he is just pre running from the killer or going for the unhook, in that case communication would help majorly to sending two people to the unhook on accident. Same goes for telling your mates where the generator is you worked on if they want to finish it.
Nobody says they will become perfect, they would have the potential to become more efficient, there is a big difference between those two. If you are seriously assuming the majority of people just shouts insults at then I don't want to have your world view my man ^^ Jokes aside I don't think that would be an issue, you could just mute them or report them or whatever, it is still your choice whether or not you want to communicate with someone in particular.
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im actually gonna test what mike said with my friends by getting us all in a lobby and not using comms
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Yeah disappointed but not surprised one bit they're saying that lol.
Surely solo queue wouldn't be any better if we knew our teammates' loadouts in the lobby...
Bringing inner strength when a teammate is running boons is obviously very common in swfs. Going to unhook someone who has deliverance or pick up someone with unbreakable is a skill issue, it has nothing to do with the lack of information at all. Going down to save someone who has a bunch of second chance perks is 100% a teamwork issue. How dare we not be altruistic enough to guess what perks our teammates have and act accordingly ?
anyways, happy to hear they have no intentions of improving solo q experience so i can stop playing it in hopes it changes ig.
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That's fair, I think by bridiging the information gap you are basically doing what you can to bring both groups as close together as possible, everything else comes down to personal playstyle and willingness to perhaps sacrifice a hook stage for the greater good and what not. I think there would still be a gap just because you can rely more on your buddies than on randoms.
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Yeah, i agree with every word you used.
I really don't know how they are believing information lack is not making any different when it's one of the game changer things.
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BHVR needs solo q to be in a terrible state to keep killers happy I guess.
Absolutely ridiculous how they're answering to "hey can we get info on teammates perk?", (which would not buff survivors in any way), with "nah it's a teamwork issue", and Mandy just commented this:
So I guess solos aren't allowed to know their teammates' perks because their teamwork is bad but BHVR can't do anything about said teamwork either and actually encourages selfish play with perks like sole survivor which are totally fine ! Anyways I'm so done rn I might just delete this silly game when I come home lol.
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I guess this is so hard to do. They can't nerf SWFs. So someone need to boost kill-rates which means why solo survivors are here. It's not surprise there is 15% escape difference between Solo-q & SWFs, at least this was last stat we got from them. And i doubt this changed so much.
Like how hard is it to add feature like that:
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This feature should have existed since the beginning of the game but oh well
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Surely this would increasing lobby dodging, though.
People will see three Distortions (or any other perks they don't like) and leave.
Also, most people aren't going to remember what their teammates have anyway.
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I feel like their monitoring is very inefficient. Mandy talked about devs making perks to counter tunneling but all those perks are practically obsolete in the current state. Is this not very easily observable?
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I think it's ironic that the devs programmed the bots to know someone has plot twist, but insist that actual players don't need that info.
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As someone that has just finished keeping stats for their last 100 SoloQ games (summary thread later this week), I feel somewhat competent to chime in.
I definitely disagree with the idea that the reason SWFs have a higher escape chance is because of them simply working together. At its core, a lot of information can be gleamed with the use of gaming sense and that comes with experience and skill. The single biggest reason of losing in SoloQ more often than not boils down to skill issues. The amount of people I played with that consistently failed basic skillchecks, walked into beartraps that were not visibly obscured, healed against Legion, tombstone Myers etc was astounding.
SoloQ woes are mostly the result of skill issues. And sadly SBMM is not equipped to help in any way.
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I think this feature does already exist on DBD Mobile, is lobby dodging a thing there more than here?
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You're entitled to your opinion but there's more to than just a simple "skill issue".
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He even explained what he meant with that... And those things he mentioned clearly are a skill issue...
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Absolutely, I just think it's the most ignored aspect of this conversation.
1) Skill imbalance when a match is found
2) Lack of information between SoloQ
3) Team mindset
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Devs were so short answered on this.
They didn’t elaborate on anything they may be looking into to for helping SoloQ, or that they even are discussing issues amongst themselves, as included in their other responses.
Feels like the BHVR consensus is that SoloQ’s fine after hud changes and we won’t be seeing any real additional help anytime soon😔
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At a minimum, the HUD should show AFC progression, Deliverance (if active), and Camaraderie (if the hooked Survivor is running the perk).
In terms of awareness of who is going for a hook rescue, the easy fix is basekit Survivor-aura-only Kindred, but BHVR has steadfastly refused all requests to add this functionality, so it seems unlikely it will ever occur.
In terms of tunneling prevention, at a minimum, reverting Decisive Strike back to a 5-second stun is a no-brainer.
In terms of camping prevention, I've always thought that the ranges for Reassurance should correspond with the ranges of Kindred: 8, 12, and 16 meters. (Like the changes to Wiretap, Blast Mine, etc, this change would increase perk consistency.)
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Idk if anyone has already suggested this but honestly a basekit kindred would really help soloq, without giving too much of a buff to swf. Maybe not seeing the killer's aura (to keep kindred as a useful perk) but whenever someone is hooked, everyone being able to see everyone else, then you could at least find the Meg hiding in the corner of the map to give you a heal before saving.
Though this probably won't change much because behaviour was correct in that some soloq players just don't care to help. 😂
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I mean their stance is just smoke and mirrors.
The real reason they intentionally keep solo queue terrible and continue to not enforce any team play is because they rely on solo queue to pad out the average killer experience so they don't have to put any significant effort into balancing the game.
Think about it, if the average solo queue team actually had a fair chance, majority of killer games would be harder and most mediocre killers would quickly become frustrated increasing queue times and forcing BHVR to do something.
Their current approach let's them pretend to be involved while saying their hands are tied and minimizes effort/cost. Has nothing to do with human nature at all. Most solo queue players I've encountered have tried to play as a team but the game hinders you so much by providing no information.
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the instance is only partially correct.
you will cooperate more efficiently on swf, generally.
but you will also cooperate better as a solo, if you have the same info you would have as a swf.
the information gap matters. and probably matters the most.
altruistic players will be altruistic solo or swf. and that applies to any other type of player.
voice comms, or rather proper information, increase the efficiency of whatever you are trying to do. doesn't change what it is.
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i'm solo I help anyone thing is if your a solo in a game with 3 in swf or 2 in swf and one other solo the ones in a group normally only help tho in they group.
how it sounds like solo are mostly selfish but to me it the swf who selfish to the solos.
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No, not just because they communicate better. They also will help each other, even sacrifice themself for each other. Which many solo people will not. SWF members will hide in the corner only at the very end of the trial, while soloq will do it way faster.
SWF will not kill themself on firsthook because they rage about the killer or how fast they got downed. Well maybe they will, but then deicide it together, and not ruining the game whole the whole party. And many like this. So yeah.
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Maybe just add others' perks or builds to the lobby or pause menu like the offerings at least for solo queue-ers. Maybe for the people playing with the solo queue-ers too.
From a design perspective, however, it's thematically understandable in that in a survival/killer situation you wouldn't know strangers capabilities.
The teams are also set up as 4 against 1, survivors would get one hell of an edge if teamwork was that much easier. But it's also not fair to solo survivors let alone new players that don't know all of the perks, abilities and add-ons by heart or how to adapt to them. It's a competitive game, somebody's gotta "lose". Just try to have fun and try not to ruin anybody else's fun.
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I think their point was more that friends are more willing to work together than complete strangers. Which I would say is true. It doesn't mean that solo queue couldn't be improved but it will never quite reach the same level a good SWF does.
Regardless, I agree with your suggestions for the most part. I don't think showing survivors each other's perks is the best idea because it would lead to lobby dodging when someone tries their adept or plays with a more fun build instead of using whatever is meta. Maybe I worry about nothing but seeing how people even dodge high or low prestige characters I think it's likely.
I think it's time for one more improvement to solo queue when it comes to communication though. A chat wheel to allow players to tell each other what they want them to do and what they plan to do themselves. Simple things like notifications that you go for the unhook or can't go for the unhook or that the killer is near you would already be a big improvement.
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It's strange because if survivors could see each other's loadouts pre match, it would make balancing perks even easier than before. They'd have no excuse to allow some combinations SWF can abuse while SoloQ struggles.
I still don't think survivors should have voice comms mind you, but some information on each other's perks isn't a dealbreaker and I say this as a killer main myself.
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Exactly. It costs them nothing to add loadouts in the lobby. Selfish survivors will still be selfish, but the ones who want to play as a team will actually have a fighting chance.
They just don't want to bother with the possibility of kill rates dropping a tiny bit because then they'd have to balance the game for real instead of just feeding solos to killers to keep them happy.
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Very hard, as they literally say we would have to wait "years" for it. I mean, it is totally reasonable, after all they need to first have a meeting to decide to do it, then have another meeting to discuss what they decided in that first meeting, and then another one to see who is going to implement it. Then, that person would have to open the UE editor, go to the widget editor, copy-paste the name tag part, modify it so it shows the perks instead, also copy-paste the blueprint related to it and refactor it so it takes the perks that the survivor currently have equipped, add a condition so the killer can't see them, test it, and then add it to the current version branch so it gets launched with the next update.
I mean, what do you want? You don't believe that it is something that can be done in one week at much, right? Come on, let's be real here, it's not like you can watch a 1 hour tutorial in Youtube and do the exact same thing in your game in a couple of afternoons.
They obviously are doing their best to bring this highly requested and needed features as fast and best as they can, so sadly we will have to wait for survivors to get all the info they can get and still do worst than SWF because they are right in what they are saying and the real problem of SoloQ is not a lack of information, is what the average survivor player do with the information he has, which usually is exactly the contrary of what he should do (i.e. waste time opening a chest when two other survivors are hooked and the third one is being chased by the killer).
Post edited by Batusalen on1 -
And if you think about it, that's kinda how it is in reality sometimes. Even in horror movies. Let be real, I would put myself first in a horror movie if I was the random. I'd be more inclined to save or help someone if I know them personally. That's just human instincts that can't be changed even if they managed to buff solo q somehow. It all comes down to the person making the decision and what they want to do. It can help a bit, sure. But I don't think it'll drastically change much.
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They couldn't be bothered to give survivors basekit Kindred without the killer aura? Man, this is very disappointing...
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I disagree with bhvr' stance on soloq as well. However, one of the biggest issues with soloq other than lack of information, is the fact that there's so many "casual" (read: really REALLY bad) players you'll get matched with.
A 3v1 from the beginning cuz someone DCs on hook is no different from a 3vq1from the beginning because we have mikaela booning 6 times the same totem, jill incapable of not running into a wall while being chased or bill crouching in a corner the Moment the visual terror radius slightly lights up
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Mobile phone version has something like this since 2 years ago. I would love to have this feature in the base game as well, but have an anonymous mode of sort to keep my perks hidden if I don't want them seeing w/e stupid build I'm running.
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Information is literally THE problem, and the devs are wrong. This game is heavily balanced around lack of information, for both sides as well. Take a look at the survivor perks some time, there are 131 survivor perks currently.
These perks are completely information based (all their power is information), in that they give information to the survivor/team:
- Aftercare
- Alert
- Better Together
- Bond
- Clairvoyance
- Counterforce
- Dark Sense
- Deja Vu
- Detective's Hunch
- Empathy
- Fogwise
- Inner Focus
- Kindred
- Left Behind
- Object of Obsession
- Open Handed
- Premonition
- Rookie Spirit
- Scene Partner
- Small Game
- Spine Chill
- Troubleshooter
- Visionary
- Windows of Opportunity
- Wire tap
These perks are at least partially based on giving you or your team information, in that, some component gives your team information:
- Babysitter
- Blast Mine
- Blood Pact
- Boon: Circle of Healing
- Boon: Dark Theory
- Boon: Exponential
- Boon: Shadow Step
- Buckle Up
- Fixated
- Lucky Star
- No One Left Behind
- Power Struggle
- Repressed Alliance
- Saboteur
- Wake Up
And look at all the perks that around suppressing information from the killer:
- Bite the Bullet
- Boil Over
- Calm Spirit
- Corrective Action
- Cut loose
- Dance with me
- Deception
- Distortion
- Diversion
- Iron Will
- Light Footed
- Lightweight
- Low Profile
- Lucky break
- Off the Record
- Parental Guidance
- Poised
- Quick and Quiet
- Red Herring
- Self-Preservation
- Sole Survivor
- Teamwork: Collective Stealth
- Technician
- Tenacity
So that means that we have:
- 25 perks only give information (15.5%)
- 15 perks partially give information (10%)
- 24 perks suppress information (15%)
- 40 perks at least partially are about information (25%)
- 64 perks are about information in some way (40%)
This means that SWF by definition, get around 25 perks for free. And many of the things that SWF can do, are not actually perk related. For example, someone can call out where trapper traps are, or when the killer changes direction to chase someone, or knowing relatively where the killer is.
This game is balanced around lack of information for both sides. And SWF breaks that significantly.
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The primary thing we're talking about is the display of information before the match starts / during the loading screen.
I'd like the feature. I just don't think it would make a huge difference to soloq
Information is literally THE problem, and the devs are wrong.Here's the dev statement -
our current stance is that lack of information is not the crux of the problem, but rather that friends work together by nature and solo survivors don'tInformation means very little if teams don't actually work together.
This game is balanced around lack of information for both sides. And SWF breaks that significantly.SWFs are stronger, obviously, but your perk list gets a bit silly.
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