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Lets Discuss : The Darkness Among Us Chapter
Part 1 - Introduction/Warnings
Before I start I would like to point out that at no point this will be a post advocating for buffing or nerfing anything but instead why the chapter itself harms the health of the game and feedback for future updates. I also respect the work the developers and other members of the team have done for the game which is why I think a post like this is important which is why I want this post to only exclusively be about why this update is poor for the health of the game without bashing the team as they do good work and this should not become an excuse to bash either side (killer or survivor). Throughout this post I will specifically be going over my opinion of the update and my dissatisfaction with it while also trying my best to go over why.
Unfortunately, I have only seen red flags with this update and have had nothing but issues with it constantly which is why I've decided to put together this post to explain to the best of my abilities the issues with this patch and my opinion on what should be done rather than just have my frustration with this update build up. More importantly, I think it's ideal to have a proper discussion regarding this chapter.
Past 2 - Release of The Legion
I have seen lots of discussion around the legion often making the call that they are either too strong, too weak or just fine when the reality is that the situation is that it doesn't matter how strong the killer is if they just completely ignore every mechanic in the game while also completely removing any level of skill from the game and still be underwhelming yet also a complete annoyance. With the legion being in the game we now have a killer who can ignore pallets and windows which makes legion unable to be looped with their power and can even ensure a survivor will go down within 20 seconds by cheesing chase mechanics by moonwalking in which case there is no level of skill that a survivor can have that will ever allow them to actually outplay the legion while the killer itself also requires absolutely no skill at all.
Now, perhaps you might be thinking that looping isn't ideal against legion however the other issue is that the power also reveals the location of nearby survivors which has two problems ;
A - This partially removes stealth while another addon completely removes it.
B - The power doesn't even last long enough to actually chain your hits in the first place.
Meaning that now you have a killer with no skill behind it at all with a gameplay that's as bland as a howto guide on optimal survivor play. This means that not only does legion have no counters and requires no skill, it also creates an unhealthy environment for both the killer and survivor as the games will end fast in the current state of legion if the survivors do not heal yet it also creates a boring game for the survivors because there is no amount of skill any survivor could ever have to actually stand a chance against the legion and with the buff the devs have proposed to make injured survivors bleed out faster this will create gameplay that's incredibly boring and irritating for the survivors which will cause the games to extend for far beyond what any game should ever last, keep in mind that this is still while legion has one of the most broken addons in the game (Frank's Mixtape).
The truth is, no amount of nerfing or buffing will ever fix the legion as nerfing legion means allowing them to stay in this fundamentally broken state while also being the weakest killer yet buffing them means we've allowed legion to be the most broken killer in the game and allowing for what could end up being the least desirable gameplay ever where your skill doesn't matter and that neither the killer or the survivor are playing a game anymore but instead are playing a broken record set to repeat. Instead of putting efforts into buffing or nerfing the legion a better focus would be to scrap the entire power and redo it from scratch as it's simply not healthy for the game.
Part 3 - A Rushed Update
I can understand that this is a very tight update schedule, but seeing this update roll out was painful and has been by far the worst experience I've ever had with this game of which I considered to be very fun to play alone or with friends but this update completely took it away from me and here's why ;
When this update rolled out it felt as if none of the bugs on the PTB were fixed for the live release, so far I've also noticed a number of issues which has made either playing as or against these specific killers absolutely miserable.
Spirit - After her release, spirit quickly became my favorite killer in the game and ended up becoming my main as a nearly perfect addition to the game along with what in my opinion was a great update which is why it annoyed me so much to find out that sounds were totally broken. I'm shocked that this patch went through purely because of the sound issues alone as sound was what made the delayed scratchmarks bearable when using her but yet for some reason it feels as if sound got completely overlooked even though the spirit had been released in the previous update, because of these issues it's nearly impossible to play spirit in comparison to the previous updates.
Hillbilly - Once again with sounds, they're completely broken and at times the chainsaw has been totally silent unless hillbilly is directly behind me.
Leatherface - This is yet another sound issue, except I have yet to have a case where leatherface's chainsaw has made any sound whatsoever as of this patch, it's completely silent.
Huntress - Hitboxes are beyond bad for huntress on the Mount Ormond Resort map as they get completely blocked off at certain parts of the main structure and to my memory this issue generally happened at dropoffs and windows.
Nurse - Deadzones have resurfaced for the nurse making it impossible to use her power on certain maps such as both of the swamp maps, though I'm not aware of all of the deadzones at the time of this post.
Perhaps for a moment if we were to go beyond specific issues and onto more general ones, the Ormond Resort map still has performance issues which for certain PC's makes the game almost unplayable while every other map provides no issues at all, with the new lighting update it's possible for Claudette to turn completely invisible on every map with the exception of the game and hitboxes in general feel worse as in many cases I've ended up hitting directly through survivors and nothing happens. With sounds being completely broken it's also completely impossible to hear firecrackers being dropped causing free blinds without even knowing they've been dropped making the winter event a living hell to play.
With all that being said, this update feels rushed and while I understand the developers are on a tight schedule I would much rather have seen this update delayed if it meant that we would end up with a cleaner result as updating the game engine is a big deal and because of this I think the devs should hold off from updating the game as fast as possible to instead ensure a cleaner update that's more enjoyable for both sides.
For now though, this is really all I want to say as of this moment and would like to see where this post goes from here before typing anything else up. Really all I have to say is that Legion is simply not healthy for the game and that the devs should not try to make another killer like them while also holding off updates if necessary to ensure more enjoyable content.
Comments
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I completely agree with all of your points made within the thread. I'd rather a chapter release without issues or minor issues that are not ruining that much experience.
When we've been in Discord together, we've both experienced these issues together and honestly made me play DbD a lot less during this patch because it's the most unfun I've had on DbD in a long time.
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Well that removes my need to write an article on the subject... you've basically written everything I was going to say and you're 100% correct on all points. ^_^0
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Another thing to add on is the Nursing Calling nerf that was unnecessary and wasn't even asked for. Although this doesn't effect me because I don't use it on Doctor or Freddy, I've never seen anyone asking for Snapping out of it to be removed from Nursing calling and I've never seen anybody asking for Waking up to be removed from Nursing Calling.
To me, the nerfs to that perk was unnecessary
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Legion needs a complete rework. I say this as a survivor main Bc I feel sorry for the killer all around.0
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The message communicated to me with BVHR's most recent update is as follows:
- We don't know how to design fun, powerful, fair killers.
- We are detached from the state of our game and how it plays at higher skill levels (or simply don't care).
- We want you to buy more cosmetics from the shop, so we've designed a killer whose sole reason for existing is additional skins. Oh, and let's work this clever scheme into Legion's 'lore' so people can't accuse us of being greedy (is it just a coincidence that both Joey and Susie look really cool while Frank and Julie are identical minus gender?).
- We don't test our patches at all (I'm aware that not every bug can be caught by a QA team, but some are so obvious that anyone playing for less than a minute could've easily found them, especially sound related bugs).
- We will randomly nerf perks that don't need it and any killer who benefited from them regardless of their actual strength.
- What is decisive strike again?
I'm losing my will to play this game, slowly but surely.
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@BrendanLeeT said:
Another thing to add on is the Nursing Calling nerf that was unnecessary and wasn't even asked for. Although this doesn't effect me because I don't use it on Doctor or Freddy, I've never seen anyone asking for Snapping out of it to be removed from Nursing calling and I've never seen anybody asking for Waking up to be removed from Nursing Calling.To me, the nerfs to that perk was unnecessary
Nurses calling affects healing, snapping out or waking up isnt healing, it makes perfect sense those were excluded from nurses calling.
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@BadMrFrosty I hear yah. Que times for killer were terrible during this past event so I tried some survivor, and it didn't matter what rank I reached, either my teammates killed me or I got tunneled. Hence why I've basically only been playing Warframe till the event hype dies down.0
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You can speak for yourself. I actually love this update. Legion is great for me. You've repeated yourself multiple times going on about "skill" or lack thereof, however why does that even matter? Just play and have fun. I do well with legion, people complain about nurse and she's "broken" as well. She also ignores almost all mechanics in this game. You metioned he's unable to be looped and that that survivors will be down within "20 seconds". Good. In my opinion the devs are trying to get rid of looping. But it seems you're basing your survivability on looping.
I like Legions design, and his power. I disagree his power doesn't need to be scrapped, it's unique and it's because it's so unique that's why it's a bit more difficult balancing this killer.
All in all. You've repeated yourself many times regarding skill, when barely anyone thinks about that when playing, it feels like a poor excuse of an argument. When really if it's boiled down, you want more opportunities for counterplay, even when there are some.
The issue is some survivors don't take the measures to do so. It's called GTFO. When you hear a heartbeat leave. Don't sit on a gen, don't try to loop, run.
If you know the killer is mobile, then be proactive than reactive in counterplay.
I enjoy playing as legion very much, and if you don't that's fine but that just means he's not your cup of tea, not every killer will appeal to you personally. But that doesn't mean you should change them to fit your playstyle.
Yes he needs work, but I play Legion all, the time and the buffs they're about to give him seem to be heading in the right direction.
This is how you get more interesting killers, trial and error. This killer is unique and fun to play, also not overly cumbersome in an expense of a pretentious veil of "skill".
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Speak for yourself.
You repeated yourself mulitple times going on about "skill".The thing is, killer is supposed to feel fun not overly cumbersome just to please a pretentious veil of skill.
Regarding Legion:
You mention how this killer can't be looped, maybe that was the point? This game has relied on looping for so long that it's become almost symbiotic with the game. Legion is good for the health of this game because he shakes things up. Maybe the devs are insisting a change in gameplay.
In regards to your inferences of "SKILL", it really boils down to what you perceive as a lack of counterplay when in reality he has quite a bit of counterplay. The difference is counterplay toward the legion is proactive not reactive. If you see it's Legion, RUN. Don't sit on a gen, don't try to loop, run and attempt to hide. If you hear the Terror Radius, leave.
I think a part of why many people dislike Legion is because he is truly unique and refreshes the stale formula of dead by daylight for the past 2 years. It's also eerily similar to another killer that gets these same complaints: Nurse.
Nurse also ignores all mechanics of the game. She's arguably "broken". But that's because going against killers like Legion and Nurse, mean a different type of playstyle against them, or at least learning to adapt against the killer.
In Summation, Legion is unique and yes they seem "broken" right now, because he's new and he shakes the game up which is why he'll be a bit of a nightmare to balance but that's okay because that's how this game grows. It has to keep things interesting with killers of unique powers.
I don't think he needs his power scrapped. I just think he's not your cup of tea and doesn't appeal to you, and that's okay but in my opinion, he's good for this games health.
He is Just what DBD needs at this moment. But this is how they will grow. The old formula has gotten boring.
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@Grimzy said:
@BrendanLeeT said:
Another thing to add on is the Nursing Calling nerf that was unnecessary and wasn't even asked for. Although this doesn't effect me because I don't use it on Doctor or Freddy, I've never seen anyone asking for Snapping out of it to be removed from Nursing calling and I've never seen anybody asking for Waking up to be removed from Nursing Calling.To me, the nerfs to that perk was unnecessary
Nurses calling affects healing, snapping out or waking up isnt healing, it makes perfect sense those were excluded from nurses calling.
Yeah I agree with that but no one really complained about it and it allowed for more killer builds rather just the same ones over and over again. If we're going down the healing path and snapping out of it isn't healing then why can't Nurses calling see deep wound survivors mending? The deep wound puts a deep cut into survivors that they need to patch up before dying, isn't that technically healing to prevent death?
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@Gardenia said:
You can speak for yourself. I actually love this update. Legion is great for me. You've repeated yourself multiple times going on about "skill" or lack thereof, however why does that even matter? Just play and have fun. I do well with legion, people complain about nurse and she's "broken" as well. She also ignores almost all mechanics in this game. You metioned he's unable to be looped and that that survivors will be down within "20 seconds". Good. In my opinion the devs are trying to get rid of looping. But it seems you're basing your survivability on looping.I like Legions design, and his power. I disagree his power doesn't need to be scrapped, it's unique and it's because it's so unique that's why it's a bit more difficult balancing this killer.
All in all. You've repeated yourself many times regarding skill, when barely anyone thinks about that when playing, it feels like a poor excuse of an argument. When really if it's boiled down, you want more opportunities for counterplay, even when there are some.
The issue is some survivors don't take the measures to do so. It's called GTFO. When you hear a heartbeat leave. Don't sit on a gen, don't try to loop, run.
If you know the killer is mobile, then be proactive than reactive in counterplay.I enjoy playing as legion very much, and if you don't that's fine but that just means he's not your cup of tea, not every killer will appeal to you personally. But that doesn't mean you should change them to fit your playstyle.
Yes he needs work, but I play Legion all, the time and the buffs they're about to give him seem to be heading in the right direction.
This is how you get more interesting killers, trial and error. This killer is unique and fun to play, also not overly cumbersome in an expense of a pretentious veil of "skill".
The legion really doesn't require skill to play at all. The reason why he is boring for either side is because the Legion can get free downs without even thinking about it and trying to outplay the survivors. If you get hit with deep wound and the killer is cheesing chase mechanics by moon-walking then you know that there is nothing you can do because in a couple of seconds you're going to be dropping down. When the killer is moon-walking, survivors that try to mend fail because the killer can just m1, if survivors try to loop the killer can just frenzy spam and down them, if the survivors want to hide then they can't because the legion will just see them if he successfully attacks another survivor in frenzy.
Not to mention that the Legion is just a straight up pipping machine, even if I don't get any kills with him I still pip and I've actually never depip with Legion once no matter how my games went. On average with the Legion I double pip and it's the easiest way to reach Rank 1 as a killer.
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@Gardenia said:
I bring up skill a lot in this discussion because skill is very important in this game. While it's true that nurse is capable of ignoring everything in the game she requires a skilled player in order to break the game, it's also no basic excuse to use skill as a main argument because nothing ever should require no skill as everything every killer or survivor does should involve some form of skill with some form of counterplay.
You want to know why I bring up skill so much? Let me ask you, what type of skill does it take to use the legion and ignore all game mechanics as right now winning as legion is a matter of either using Frank's mixtape or whether or not survivors want to do gens. You think it's fun when there is nothing a survivor can ever do to avoid getting hit the first time and be totally unable to break chase? Better yet, do you think it's fun that legion when played the way they're intended to play is awful and can't even catch survivors if they attempt to chainhit anybody who isn't super close? When I think of fun, I think of outplaying my opponents and knowing that every action I've done in a game has warranted me a win because I outplayed them if I'm the killer and one thing I've gotten from playing nearly nonstop legion is that the interaction between a legion and survivor is near minimal and never requires any thought whatsoever with the exception of "well, might as well not go after that guy because they're too far". Now, I don't want this to look like I'm just bashing your opinion but I find it horrible to throw skill out of the game in the way that legion does as the killer in the long run will only produce boring gameplay that nobody will like, plus there comes a certain point of which I have to ask what's even fun about playing legion anyways. I find legion boring because not only do they not require any thought to play but they also have no learning curve unlike my favorite killer (Spirit) who you can only get better at with more skill and knowledge of the game. I had legion figured out day one and by day two I stopped playing legion as intended and instead through the only viable way to use legion which only turns into frustration for both sides.Ontop of my points for why I think legion is poor for the health of the game, I also brought up issues with this patch such as bugs which I have not seen you acknowledge yet.
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I really liked legion and Jeff, but i must admit, this is by far the worst chapter they have released in terms of technical issues, failing to optimize a map at this point is simply unacceptable.
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@BrendanLeeT said:
Another thing to add on is the Nursing Calling nerf that was unnecessary and wasn't even asked for. Although this doesn't effect me because I don't use it on Doctor or Freddy, I've never seen anyone asking for Snapping out of it to be removed from Nursing calling and I've never seen anybody asking for Waking up to be removed from Nursing Calling.To me, the nerfs to that perk was unnecessary
no one asked for these. the reason why they changed them was because people kept telling the devs they should make mend seen by nurse's calling and made the argument that snap out and wake up are healing actions. Therefore they removed those from nurses calling to let us know that they don't want any of those to be considered healing.
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I agree with everything you've said. I actually really like Legion and Jeff. Design-wise, they're very unique and I think the Legion's power has potential. But after the upcoming buff, I think he'll end up being broken. You're completely right that he has no counterplay. The only way to beat him is to rush gens, which is what survivors do anyway. If you ask me, they need to buff and nerf him at the same time. Make him viable, but give survivors a counterplay when you do, so that everyone can have fun. I won't give up hope completely. The Spirit had a pretty poor release as well, but the devs managed to make her, in my opinion, one of the best killers in the game.
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Your definition of fun and skill is different from others. It does take skill to actually chain hit and down. It does take skill in general to utilize a killers power.
And I'll repeat he is good for the health of this game because it shakes things up. Regardless your other points about the bugs I didn't mention the bugs because I agreed with them. So instead of thinking I'm here to antagonize you, because I have my opinion, contrary to yours .Acknowledge that people like them, he does need improvement but it's also on the part of Survivors not utilizing the counterplay available to him, and so what if you get a free first hit? If you see them coming run. They don't teleport so you're not oblivious to the terror radius.0 -
@Gardenia said:
Your definition of fun and skill is different from others. It does take skill to actually chain hit and down. It does take skill in general to utilize a killers power.And I'll repeat he is good for the health of this game because it shakes things up. Regardless your other points about the bugs I didn't mention the bugs because I agreed with them. So instead of thinking I'm here to antagonize you, because I have my opinion, contrary to yours .Acknowledge that people like them, he does need improvement but it's also on the part of Survivors not utilizing the counterplay available to him, and so what if you get a free first hit? If you see them coming run. They don't teleport so you're not oblivious to the terror radius.
Make no mistake, I do not believe you're here to antagonize my post and I can respect people having a different opinion as that's perfectly fine, it's just rather difficult to get the intended tone out of a typed message. The problem is that I just don't understand what people find fun about the legion. For instance I've noticed you have said that it takes skill to actually chain hit people but the problem is, what caused those survivors to be so close to each other that it allowed you to get those hits off? Did you yourself get those survivors stuck in one part of the map and get the chain hits off or was it that by luck those survivors happened to be in the same spot of the map and you took advantage of that? This is an aspect of the legion that you cannot control with skill which is the issue. To down a survivor, what did you do special that no other killer can do that required a skillful input? Did you just cheese chase mechanics and wait for the timer to go down, spam stab them or attempt to mindgame them at unsafe pallets? If it was that last option then any other killer can do that in the game.
The real question here is, what meaningful impact can you make on the game that makes it fun and exciting for everyone? For me when I use spirit for instance I feel I've accomplished my goal when I scare the survivors and mindgame them whether or not I actually win by the end of the game while with legion all it feels like I do is slow the game down and force survivors to go into a slow and boring m1 match where you hold down the mend key and with the upcoming potential buffs, healing too. The other issue is that not only by playing legion have you forced a boring game on the survivors, they will now force a boring game onto you by not healing and just doing the gens which is the only way to counter the legion, it essentially enforces an unhealthy playstyle on both sides and those are the issues I have with legion.
I've also noticed you brought up to get off gens earlier but the truth is that the first hit against legion does not matter as it's incredibly easy to achieve yet also not threatening at all. The real issue is when chase mechanics get cheesed for force a survivor to go down without any counterplay or you spam your power which is a waste of time more than anything.
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