Why is ruin/lullaby a Hex in the first place?

DwightsLifeMatters

I mean, it's not like if you miss every ruin great skillcheck the gen will never get done. It's just delaying a bit. Huntress lullaby isn't even that strong if you pay attention. Why are these perks hex totems again? I kinda missed the explaination of that 

GT_Legend2

But rank 20s who just picked the game up would not like it, it would be way too unfun for new players

NightmareReborn

The reason why ruin is a totem is because it would be too devastating if it wasn't. New players have a harder time dealing with the ruin skillchecks and good players can just power through it.

However, I do agree that Huntress' lullaby shouldn't be a totem. It has way too small of an impact for it to be a totem.

DwightsLifeMatters

GT_Legend2 said:

But rank 20s who just picked the game up would not like it, it would be way too unfun for new players

I see where you are coming from, but here is the problem:
Rank 15-20 should be a save space of new players. This means, there shouldn't be a killer with ruin level 3. This should be the job of the devs to make sure that new players only are playing at these ranks.
Also, just because they don't like it doesn't mean they can't finish the gen.

Secondly, why should we balance around noobs? A competitive game should be balanced around the good players not around potatoes 

DwightsLifeMatters

NightmareReborn said:

The reason why ruin is a totem is because it would be too devastating if it wasn't. New players have a harder time dealing with the ruin skillchecks and good players can just power through it.

However, I do agree that Huntress' lullaby shouldn't be a totem. It has way too small of an impact for it to be a totem.

But why are we balancing around newbies?

Seanzu

@DwightsLifeMatters said:
NightmareReborn said:

The reason why ruin is a totem is because it would be too devastating if it wasn't. New players have a harder time dealing with the ruin skillchecks and good players can just power through it.

However, I do agree that Huntress' lullaby shouldn't be a totem. It has way too small of an impact for it to be a totem.

But why are we balancing around newbies?

"Why should new players even have a chance omegalul"

DwightsLifeMatters

SenzuDuck said:

@DwightsLifeMatters said:
NightmareReborn said:

The reason why ruin is a totem is because it would be too devastating if it wasn't. New players have a harder time dealing with the ruin skillchecks and good players can just power through it.

However, I do agree that Huntress' lullaby shouldn't be a totem. It has way too small of an impact for it to be a totem.

But why are we balancing around newbies?

"Why should new players even have a chance omegalul"

Oh look, the survivor main who plays killer casually is hunting in the forum again "omegalul"

DwightsLifeMatters

EntityDispleased said:

Because all perks need conditions or downsides depending on their strength. If these two aren't hexes there would be absolutely no reason to not run them.

Well, this isn't really true is it. There a lot of perks without a downside besides one obvious which I'm not going to mention cuz it will go offtopic if people read that lol

Seanzu

@DwightsLifeMatters said:
SenzuDuck said:

@DwightsLifeMatters said:

NightmareReborn said:

The reason why ruin is a totem is because it would be too devastating if it wasn't. New players have a harder time dealing with the ruin skillchecks and good players can just power through it.

However, I do agree that Huntress' lullaby shouldn't be a totem. It has way too small of an impact for it to be a totem.

But why are we balancing around newbies?

"Why should new players even have a chance omegalul"

Oh look, the survivor main who plays killer casually is hunting in the forum again "omegalul"

Or alternatively, I'm a better killer than you'll ever be and want balance to the game and think new players should be able to learn and have a fighting chance against killers.

But oh no, mr dwightslifematters thinks every survivor should suffer from rank 20 to rank 1.

I find it funny how you mention I play this game as a killer casually. It's a casual game, for casuals. If it was competitive you're damned sure insta heals and moris would never be a thing. The game is casual, stop tryig to use it as an insult.

I think it's very evident who wants the game to sustain a long life and be balanced, and it certainly isn't you.

OMEGALUL - make new players suffer because you've had a hard time 200 hours in and think you're owed all the kills from rank 20 to rank 1.

Vietfox

DwightsLifeMatters said:

Secondly, why should we balance around noobs? A competitive game should be balanced around the good players not around potatoes 

Good killers don't need those perks to not be hex totems, so it's fine the way it is right now.

PolarBear

I hate that ruin is a hex because often my teammates just start looking for the totem instead of doing any gens which will slow down the game even more than it would otherwise.

Vancold

@DwightsLifeMatters said:
SenzuDuck said:

@DwightsLifeMatters said:

NightmareReborn said:

The reason why ruin is a totem is because it would be too devastating if it wasn't. New players have a harder time dealing with the ruin skillchecks and good players can just power through it.

However, I do agree that Huntress' lullaby shouldn't be a totem. It has way too small of an impact for it to be a totem.

But why are we balancing around newbies?

"Why should new players even have a chance omegalul"

Oh look, the survivor main who plays killer casually is hunting in the forum again "omegalul"

Aaaand you just showed your true self.

Dayum.

Cardgrey

@DwightsLifeMatters said:
GT_Legend2 said:

But rank 20s who just picked the game up would not like it, it would be way too unfun for new players

I see where you are coming from, but here is the problem:
Rank 15-20 should be a save space of new players. This means, there shouldn't be a killer with ruin level 3. This should be the job of the devs to make sure that new players only are playing at these ranks.
Also, just because they don't like it doesn't mean they can't finish the gen.

Secondly, why should we balance around noobs? A competitive game should be balanced around the good players not around potatoes 

I believe one of the streams mr go play civ 5 said it’s a party game first. It’s not competitive in nature.

SnakeSound222

DwightsLifeMatters said:

GT_Legend2 said:

But rank 20s who just picked the game up would not like it, it would be way too unfun for new players

I see where you are coming from, but here is the problem:
Rank 15-20 should be a save space of new players. This means, there shouldn't be a killer with ruin level 3. This should be the job of the devs to make sure that new players only are playing at these ranks.
Also, just because they don't like it doesn't mean they can't finish the gen.

Secondly, why should we balance around noobs? A competitive game should be balanced around the good players not around potatoes 

What if someone gets lucky with the bloodweb RNG and gets Ruin to tier 3? 

We shouldn’t completely balance the game around noobs, but we need to keep them in mind because we don’t want them to quit the game after a few hours of playing because it’s too hard for them. Ruin not being a totem would mess them up so much. They’d never be able to finish a gen because they either keep missing skill checks or hit mostly goods and have the gen constantly regressing.  

NMCKE

SnakeSound222 said:

DwightsLifeMatters said:

GT_Legend2 said:

But rank 20s who just picked the game up would not like it, it would be way too unfun for new players

I see where you are coming from, but here is the problem:
Rank 15-20 should be a save space of new players. This means, there shouldn't be a killer with ruin level 3. This should be the job of the devs to make sure that new players only are playing at these ranks.
Also, just because they don't like it doesn't mean they can't finish the gen.

Secondly, why should we balance around noobs? A competitive game should be balanced around the good players not around potatoes 

What if someone gets lucky with the bloodweb RNG and gets Ruin to tier 3? 

We shouldn’t completely balance the game around noobs, but we need to keep them in mind because we don’t want them to quit the game after a few hours of playing because it’s too hard for them. Ruin not being a totem would mess them up so much. They’d never be able to finish a gen because they either keep missing skill checks or hit mostly goods and have the gen constantly regressing.  

The tutorial should prepare the survivor more in my opinion. Perhaps introduce them to Hex perks by giving the survivor two options: Work on a generator or find Hex Ruin (The hex's aura will be shown to the survivor so they don't have to waste too much time)

AmorePrincess

Well, huntress lullaby dont need to be a hex, since it usually takes some time to get it to full effect. But ruin? No thanks. When I use it as killer, I dont need it to be up the whole game. Just like monto says, its just there to slow down the game just a little bit.
But then again, there are much more reliable perkbuilds to slow people down then hex ruin. It should stay a hex, because it doesnt need to be more meta than it already is. And dont get me wrong, I used to hate it being found 10 seconds into the match, but also, as I got better, I use it less and less. 

Now, to ask why a game should think of noobs only? I dont think in a game where so many killers and survivors rank down to stay in noob levels is to only think about potatoes, is it? And as you say, have rank 20-15 be protected from a perk like ruin, not as a hex, then how are they supposed to learn the game? If it is all cakewalk up to 15, and then being hit in the face with harder gameplay and not have been able to learn everything. New players rank up way too fast as it is, and get to ranks where they are far from ready to be in. Just because you have played the game for some time, does not mean that all have. There are new players joining all the time. Maybe you should just do as so many great killers out there, and find ways to make your games less focused around ruin. Because I find the perk more useful when you try and learn the ropes with killers, than when you are confindent in your skills, kind of like bloodhound and other tracking perks.

DwightsLifeMatters

Cardgrey said:

@DwightsLifeMatters said:
GT_Legend2 said:

But rank 20s who just picked the game up would not like it, it would be way too unfun for new players

I see where you are coming from, but here is the problem:
Rank 15-20 should be a save space of new players. This means, there shouldn't be a killer with ruin level 3. This should be the job of the devs to make sure that new players only are playing at these ranks.
Also, just because they don't like it doesn't mean they can't finish the gen.

Secondly, why should we balance around noobs? A competitive game should be balanced around the good players not around potatoes 

I believe one of the streams mr go play civ 5 said it’s a party game first. It’s not competitive in nature.

I remember him saying that he wants to make DbD e-sports ready

Vortexas

Because survivors would cry if it wasn't.

Just like they did when NOED wasn't.

NMCKE

Vortexas said:

Because survivors would cry if it wasn't.

Just like they did when NOED wasn't.

To be fair tho, imagine how boring generator simulator would be if you couldn't hit greats. Usually I'll run technician, Stake Out, or Small Game to soft counter Ruin.

DwightsLifeMatters

Nickenzie said:

Vortexas said:

Because survivors would cry if it wasn't.

Just like they did when NOED wasn't.

To be fair tho, imagine how boring generator simulator would be if you couldn't hit greats. Usually I'll run technician, Stake Out, or Small Game to soft counter Ruin.

Yeah, kinda true point. Normally I search for solutions which doesn't make playing survivor even more boring. But all suggestions we gave the devs are getting ignored 

Slayer

I agree ruin shouldnt be hex but it must be a perk cause it still affects the gameplay it just depends on survivors and  killer

NMCKE

DwightsLifeMatters said:

Nickenzie said:

Vortexas said:

Because survivors would cry if it wasn't.

Just like they did when NOED wasn't.

To be fair tho, imagine how boring generator simulator would be if you couldn't hit greats. Usually I'll run technician, Stake Out, or Small Game to soft counter Ruin.

Yeah, kinda true point. Normally I search for solutions which doesn't make playing survivor even more boring. But all suggestions we gave the devs are getting ignored 

Generators should have a two step phase or they should make a system like Last Year: The Nightmare where your objective is changed after you complete the previous objective. We kinda have that when all generators are completed but I would like more objectives between the two steps.

Kaelum

@DwightsLifeMatters said:
I remember him saying that he wants to make DbD e-sports ready

That statement has never publicly been made by anyone at BHVR. They have always said that it is a casual competitive game, and they would not mind if it became an esport, but they are not going to do anything to specifically make it one.

DwightsLifeMatters

Kaelum said:

@DwightsLifeMatters said:
I remember him saying that he wants to make DbD e-sports ready

That statement has never publicly been made by anyone at BHVR. They have always said that it is a casual competitive game, and they would not mind if it became an esport, but they are not going to do anything to specifically make it one.

I can try to find it. I'm not pretty sure when m cote said that, could be in an interview. I will link it if I find it

TheCatLady

I can tell you now a lot of people would quit playing if Ruin was made a non-hex perk, myself included. The killer bias in these forums is astounding sometimes.

White_Owl

@TheCatLady said:
I can tell you now a lot of people would quit playing if Ruin was made a non-hex perk, myself included. The killer bias in these forums is astounding sometimes.

Yeah, not everyone can play at 60 fps and land every great skillchecks, and being rooted on a gen for an average of 2 minutes (if not more depending on rng) is boring as hell.

fluffybunny

DwightsLifeMatters said:

I mean, it's not like if you miss every ruin great skillcheck the gen will never get done. It's just delaying a bit. Huntress lullaby isn't even that strong if you pay attention. Why are these perks hex totems again? I kinda missed the explaination of that 

The newer players struggle with it. I remember some games where nothing got done thanks to ruin. Heck, some of the higher ranks stuck at ruin, too. Skill checks are hard, man. Also boring. We're don't want to make this generator by daylight. That's the most boring part.

Roobnus

The majority of the playerbase still play like R20, even in R1. The devs probably are not that professional and competitive either, which makes it hard for them to balance around high skilled players.

If the devs see R1 players struggle with Ruin, they think "Oh, even skilled players struggle with it!" but in reality it's just the result of a bad matchmaking allowing unskilled players to reach the highest rank in the game.

It's a general problem in DbD, how can you balance a game that has a huge pot of players mixed from noobs to pros and the matchmaking "randomly" picks 5 to play against each other? Many match results are already defined before it even starts, simply because of the massive difference in skill between the players.

powerbats

The reason why the game is balanced more around the noobs is because that's where most of the playerbase resides. If you look at League of Legends back when they crossed the 32 million active individual accounts most of the player base was Bronze/non ranked players.

Now for them they balance it more around high ranked play because that's where the esports action is whereas here the player base isn't massive enough to do that.

You also don't have enough players playing at say a depip level to warrant balancing the game around them, that's not to say it won't reach that point someday.