Sanctum of Wrath (Yamaoka Estate)
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The main problem with this map is center building. It's very weak for survivors, but is the most important objective. It's so important that if it's not done, it can actively throw the match. Otherwise loops are fine minus bing in the center. Map is small but that's fine. Center just needs something. I don't know what, I'm not a designer. Though something needs help there.
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Slightly killer sided map. The main building is not safe enough, it's easy to cut the map in half as a killer because of the narrow center.
Suggestion : Increase the width around main building to add one filler pallet each side and make the main building vaults safer (add some fence to force the killer to do a longer bypass for instance).
Post edited by Adrien on0 -
This map is notorious for having a 3-gen spawning on either side of the main building" the shrine" terrible for solo queues to try and break the 3 to 4 gen, even with the anti 3 gen mechanics. It also has terrible gate spawns where it spawns both gates on the same side as well form like 10-11 clock and 8-7 or 1-2 and 5-4, and killer just camps and you have to pray get the gate to the letter A in escape and hide and go back to it.
The main building is weak, maybe not put both pallets on the same side and put them on opposite catty corner sides.
Also there is a unsafe pallet outside of main that connect to main and a scary statute. Maybe making some of the statutes broken and forming a slight rock formation, making it safer, but not broken in terms of looping.
Would it help BHVR if we visit each instance of feedback on a stream or video, to better explain each issue.
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Kinda the same stuff with Family Residence: the lighting and numerous bushes/objects scattered around the map can make navigation a bit daunting at times. Other than that, map feels alright, though I don't think the "I" shaped maps work too well for dbd in general, personally.
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I love maps where the main building is relatively small but in the center of the map. Overall, this feels like a well-balanced and fun map on which to play.
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The size of the map is good and the statues gimmick is cool but i thing the bottleneck at the middle of the map gives quite an advantadge to killer, would say a bit killer sided
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It feels like the map is mostly balanced, would just be nice if the invisible hit boxes around main building would be removed so you can leap off with Demo better.
The shape makes it rather easy to 3 Gen, but you are somewhat fine if you get the middle gen done early on so I would say it is not too bad in that regard. The dead zones to the sides of the main altar are a bit weird, but understandable because of its shape.
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I don't think this map benefits either side necessarily, except for high mobility killers. My main concern is that it's a dog bone, "I" shaped map which creates a bottleneck effect in the middle, especially for Sanctum with the center structure creating a vantage POV for the killer to block survivors from accessing the other side. I'm not a fan of "I" shaped maps for that reason, but can appreciate the variety in the map's layout.
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The only glaring issues of Sanctum are its size being so unforgiving for M1 killers and the gen spread being so close together in a lot of cases. I've spawned in with one side of the map having 4 gens + the center for a 5 gen and that literally should never even come close to happening.
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Whatever changes you'd be making to the map, please keep the "ever watching statue" easter egg in!
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TL;DR: This map is killer-sided because survivors are locked to one side of the map or the other, which will end up getting used very quickly. However, there's still reasonable play from the survivor side, so it isn't a priority to get changed.
I think that there are two things that help survivors on this map:
1.) Lots of great places for stealth (Although not enough to really be oppressive)
2.) Some fairly safe, reliable landmarks, between the 2 maze tiles on top & bottom, as well as shack and the courtyard loop (Assuming you get a pallet with it.).
I still think this is a killer-sided map for these reasons:
1.) This map, like ARP & Suffo, open up survivors to some pretty nasty 3-gens, even 4-gens if you include the very unsafe main building gen. This is less of a problem since the kick changes, but this will get increasingly more problematic as the killer you play against gets stronger. It is also a pretty massive problem considering...
2.) A distinct lack of filler pallets, and an even greater lack of safe ones, all of which are harder to spot than usual because of aforementioned bushes. Luckily the maze tiles on either side of the map are reasonably close together, but if they're already used (Or if the survivors got unlucky and rolled bad ones), you can have a side of the map that is almost entirely dead. This is unlike its sister maps, ARP & Suffo, which have lots of very strong filler pallets, and more maze tile spawns.
3.) A lot of this map's real estate is taken up by the reasonably weak shrine & gazebo loops. The gazebo isn't terrible (The window is decent in some circumstances, and it can even spawn a fairly strong pallet), but the shrine is basically worthless and only serves to chain to another tile (Which, again, may not spawn for reasons above).
4.) Main building, being big and unsafe (Terrible windows and 2 terrible pallets), makes it almost impossible for survivors to chain the top and bottom sides of the map unless they have an unreasonable amount of distance or take an injure. This is especially bad considering 2.). This is unlike ARP & Suffo, which have a very strong middle of the map to chain between the two sides.
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It's mostly a balanced map but a little bit favors the killer side but it's good wouldn't change anything.
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one of the few killer sided the map. The map could use few more pallets on each side. maybe a some buff to cabin loop, more windows?
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This map feels VERY suffocating. The main temple in the center is very very, weak. Its very easy for the killer to stand at the top and overlook the entire map in dire situations but also can hold one side of the map making very little effort to traverse to the otherside. Theres usually a low amount of filler due to the killer choosing which side to hold. Make the sides of the temple completely open to expand the map at the sides to increase gen spread
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good map, almost balanced other than the fact the killer has a garunteed 4 gen on one side of the map, 5 gen including main. azarovs also has this problem very often. i dont know what id do with this information but if the killer is trying to win, its going to be easy because of the free 4 gen
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the middle part splitting this map on basically two parts can be kinda annoying. I guess the anti3gen mechanic might have lowered this annoyance though haven’t really played often on it since then. Otherwise not much complaints from me.
Even if stated often already I think the statues watching you is one of the best map details and I want more of this kinda stuff on maps!
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Sanctum of Wrath shares a lot of the issues with Family Residence and it can also be considered a balanced map, maybe leaning to killer side a bit more, again not for the good reasons.
Similar to its "realm-mate", killers can't afford to cross the map constantly, the shape of Sanctum of Wrath is particularly two-sided with a very thin middle, it utilizes its size in an awkwardly expanded way that makes the gen spread quite wide. For this reason and the fact that the gen spread can sometimes be distributed unevenly across sides (instead of 3 on each side and 1 in the middle, you can see 4 on one side, 2 on the other and 1 in the middle), killers are heavily encouraged to follow territorial playstyles while holding the thin middle to make crossing sides hard for the survivors, specially while using the main building as a watch tower to keep control of where the survivors are.
Survivors have inconsistent & unreliable safety where the long landmarks (Shrine & Gazebo) and the courtyard landmark are not guaranteed to spawn their respective pallets. Unlike Family Residence and any other map, Sanctum of Wrath has a shack that shares tile placing with another landmark, meaning that it moves around (from side to side, changing tile spot with the courtyard) and the map has 3 possible basements & 2 possible shack locations. While this feature is incredibly charming, it is outshined by the two-sided shape of the map and it ends up contributing to the inconsistency that survivors have to deal with.
Main building has 2 pallets (1 above and 1 below, both with 2 possible spots each) and 4 windows, all with dropdowns (3 of them quite tall ones). Just like Family Residence's, this main building is particularly weak but in Sanctum of Wrath's case it is even worse since the killer benefits from its height to control the map and also the fact it is in the middle denying loop connection between stronger tiles. The mazetiles are also 4 (ideal amount considering its 7 types, it should not be reduced) but they are located in such ways that some are isolated and others are directly adjacent to landmarks (allowing occasionally absurd chains of loops that are yet again inconsistent).
On top of the safety, survivors also have to deal with the territorial strategies that are so incentivized by the map and not only the killer can hold the middle to tactically punish crossing the map but they can also zone survivors into the side they are already in, making vulnerable off the hook survivors particularly uncapable of holding a proper chase, since they might be in an area with limited or already used resources and they can hardly make it to a better place without the assitance of certain valuable perks.
The total resources of pallets that survivors can count with is of aprox. 11 to 15 but 2 are gonna be spent on main building and the rest are gonna be unevenly split between both sides, considering that the killer will likely not play on the other side, survivors have a very low pallet count for the reduced space they are gonna be playing in if the killer does employ the tactics that benefit them.
The map itself, Sanctum of Wrath, requires a massive overhaul to its shape and layout, otherwise many of its charming points (like shack having multiple locations) pale in comparison to the poor gameplay it encourages.
The realm, Yamaoka Estate, needs its landmarks to start providing consistent pallets and on a peculiar note: one of the 7 types of mazetiles has no lockers, which is awkward for some killers and those survivors trying to make use of lockers (it is the one commonly tagged as "Labyrinth Gym" and "Maze Gym"), which is an exclusive issue of this realm.
Post edited by AMGC on4 -
I think this map could use a little reshape and gen placement adjustment to make it less of a 3 gen or bust scenario. If you get the 3 gen on one side there’s a good chance you’re winning but if they’re on opposite sides you’re very unlikely to win that as killer. Knowing whether you’re gonna win or lose as soon as you see the last 3 gens feels pretty bad. So just bring both outliers closer together.
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I really want to like this map as both killer and survivor but cant. I love the shape of it having that middle choke point. ARP and Suffo Pit 1 are two of my favorite maps because it has those choke points. The choke points allow for the killer to make and create map pressure with out the need to perks or powers and creates a power struggle or tug of war between the killer and survivors to control pressure one side or the other. That works great for ARP and Suffo because the choke point or middle is full loops and maze tiles, making it some what safe for survivors try to pass through. also allowing for stealth too with all the LOS blockers. The problem with Sanctum is there is no safety or gameplay elements for survivors in the middle. The main building has couple very unsafe windows unless you have balance landing and two unsafe pallets no where near each other. Dont get me wrong as a survivor and killer I love unsafe pallets but those two pallets are no where near each other. (btw the new map in PTB, chef kiss. amazing pallet design. best map in a long time) The middle needs to not be such a deadzone.
2nd problem with this map is the two shack spawns both are connecting to maze tiles by a very very short distance. That wouldnt be a problem if what maze tiles spawned next to shack werent potentially strong tiles like long wall, short wall, or "ormond tile" gyms. For example the other day i was playing survivor and the poor person playing Billy had to deal with me having shack window connected directly to "ormond tile" window. Two strong windows literally 4 meters away from each other and both had strong pallets. Most killers can not play around that at all and would need to drop chase and go else where or lose the game.
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The map is big but balanced, largely because of how generators are spread. Survivors have to make a pretty significant walk from one gen to another. This means that the killer can create pressure quickly by pushing survivors off of one gen. However, this is counterbalanced by survivors' ability to disappear, because it is a larger map.
The mix of jungle gyms, weak pallets, and deadzones hits a sweet spot as well. There are enough for resourceful survivors, but they have to play the loops well or they will run out.
Finally, the main temple is balanced because it only has one pallet, and it's windows are primarily used as a means of escape. It's an easy generator for both sides to contest.
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Its balanced more then family residence in my opinion
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I appreciate how those Jizu statue always turn to face you, need to have more maps with this creepy hidden details
my bear traps work on this map 10/10 😤👍️
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The main building of the map divides it and makes it easy for especially high mobility killers to patrol hooks effectively while also controlling generators on one side. The main building is also absolutely awful to loop on as a survivor, except for that one window on the stairs, which might actually buy me a few seconds if I'm in a rare position to actually make it.
As someone who plays a lot of Myers, it's odd how many games I've won in this map despite Myers not being too strong without addons, simply because the map is so easy to control and how rather than being a sliver of hope, the main building is a death sentence.
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Main building is fairly weak, however the outsides of the map do have decent titles.
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The loops are generally unsafe, and unorthodox. Both Yamaoka maps are really iffy on the survivor side in my opinion, and its mostly due to how bad the loops are lol.
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I believe while relatively balanced, the map is slightly Survivor sided, and there's only one reason for that: The generator locations.
So long as survivors repair ONE of the generators on each side it becomes far more difficult for the killer to patrol effectively. While the middle building is weak in general, it can be used effectively once the generator is completed.
Killer players typically "pick a side" and allow the opposite end to be completed while they hold one area, because once survivors have broken a cluster of 3-4 gens, they become incredibly hard to defend - especially for low mobility killers.
I believe some folks might say it's Killer Sided due to this defensive strategy and how quickly survivors might burn through pallets - but I personally believe that it is more survivor sided so long as they play with intention. The generator spread means that Killers are encouraged to play scummy and selfishly to maximize their chances in the late game, while survivors greatly benefit from spreading out. If survivors are smart with their first two gens and don't get greedy, it becomes difficult to make a comeback as Killer with the lengthy patrols.
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As a killer main, I feel like survivors might enjoy this map a bit more if at least on one side of the main structure in the middle there was even one jungle gym on one of the sides.
The "I" shape might make it a bit difficult for newer survivors to feel comfortable around the main structure since there isn't any safe loop around the bottom. Once you stagger after jumping down from such a height, it gets quite sticky to know what to do or where to go
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In both previous pools I said that differentiated sizes and shapes are a good thing, but the bottleneck in this map (and in Azarov's Resting place) is wild in a bad way. Also its a little too dark. Also bamboo are sometimes passable or impassable.
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I hate when you run into a random bamboo shoot but overall one of the better maps.
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I'm not a fan of this card, to be honest. This would be one of the last cards I would like to play on, now I'll tell you why.
In terms of the "Survivor" role, the biggest problem of this map is the center.
1) It is very difficult for a survivor to move from one side of the map to the other because:
a) when crossing, you can easily be seen by a maniac from above the main building, since the passage is empty
b) there is only one useless pallet on each side of the transition.
2) The main building itself. It is very unsafe due to the lack of safe pallets, window openings, as well as descents, except for the side, and then it is also not very safe...
Also, this division into two sides of the map forces the Killer to choose one side of the map and guard the generators only there, simultaneously destroying pallets and killing survivors. If I were the developers, I would compare this map with a variation of the Autohaven landfill "Azarov's Resting Place" and ask myself a question. Why are these two cards so similar, but it would be preferable for people to play at the Autohaven dump.
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I think its balanced, prob bit 55% for killer and 45% for Survivor because of the size and quite easy gen control and map view, however Survivors still have lot of connected loops and it can take a while before you down someone.
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man the tiles make no sense, they are really wierd and confusing, that goes for every yamaoka map
just give me regular tiles like T&L walls, etc
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yamaoka estate is soooooooo ugly, by far my least fav maps. i don’t even care about the balance on this one i just want to not wanna dc every time i spawn on it.
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It is quite balanced but sometimes the RNG can be strongly in Survivor's favor. I have seen a strong filler tile spawn next to a jungle gym spawn next to Killer shack - all windows lined up so that even bloodlust makes it challenging to get through.
I greatly dislike how the map is bottlenecked, and navigating from one half of the map to the other side is dangerous for Survivors. It also means that a Killer doesn't want to leave their "half" of the map.
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the problem with this map is it is shaped like a capital H. it is very easy to 3 gen this map. often all a killer needs to do is focus on one side of the map to create the 3 gen situation. you can win this map without ever going to the other side.
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I think this map is pretty well balanced...but still needs more lockers for dredge.
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This is a map that requires brainpower from both sides, but even as an 82h, I found it very balanced, because both sides have advantages, and whichever can apply their brain matter the most, will win. SoloQ might suffer because the middle requires coordination to play well or to pass through it, but otherwise I am very happy with the map. Plus, feels unique with it's aesthetics, mechanics and layouts. Maybe a few totem spawns should be made more obvious tho.
EDIT: On second thought, this map practically requires information perks. If you try to do without, you'll probably struggle to find anyone. Not that it's a dealbreaker, but it does contribute to shoring up the Survivor's disadvantage.
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I like the big stone statue in the middle. There could be also a well maybe. I think the shrine could have a basement with the family crypt. Not my favorite Yamakoa map but it's fine.
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The map has a 3-1-3 gen layout for 80% of the matches (the other is 4-1-2 which is even worse) which heavily favour killer and a 3 gen strategy. The temple in the middle is 2 weak pallets, 2 weak and one decent window. There is nothing really there which makes it basically No Man's Land. The map is also prone to deadzones and very visible gens in the middle of the map, which make it even harder for the survivors to prevent a 3gen. The temple in the middle also favours ranges killers like Huntress, Slinger or Trickster, who have it way easier to camp from far away and still manage to hit because if the elevation.
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While it doesn't feel any harder to escape or kill on this map it is consistently unfun for both roles. Main building should be moved to a corner of the map. While main itself isn't a particularly strong structure, it's massive size makes navigating across the map a chore and generally gives too much information to players standing on top of it. More foliage should be placed around the building to prevent spying on unhookers/giving away the killer too soon. The gym by right spawn shack has an annoying tendency to chain loops and with many filler tiles to cross to the next gym. It's interesting that the map has 3 spawns for basement, but it does massively impact the balance. Replacing shack spawns with additional courtyards will make the map feel easier to navigate while limiting bottleneck potential.
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Main building is a joke, can hardly call it a main building as it makes the map even more unsafe for survivors, chokepoint for killer. Not enough strong tiles makes this a killer sided map
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Sanctum is a map that's really easy to run a 3-gen on. If you just ignore one half of the map as killer, it's quite easy to just turn the other half into a deadzone and win based on that. I think the map feels pretty good to play on both sides if the killer isn't doing that, though. The tiles are fun and the main building is weird and interesting. The issue mostly just boils down to the fact that the map is entirely bisected.
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This map has a tone of dead zones as a trial progresses. Q few more hooks would help that greatly
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I think you guys did well with the new Greenville map in PTB and should do more immersive/confusing maps like that. The fact that we don't really know entirely what is going on, it really spice up the aspect of horror, it's a step in the good direction.
I'd the say that before reworking maps or while reworking maps, you should really works on hitboxes and make them as realistic as possible, because being stuck between two trees or in a small bush when we can go through it can be frustrating.
I think you could add cool stuff like in the new map in PTB:
- If you vault from a shrine in that map, it makes a gong sound.
- Where we find japanese bridge, we could also find water, surrounded by cat tails, could be a good place to hide, but beware: you can hear the water move.
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The statues in the middle are the worst thing whenever your playing killers like Blight or Billy. The collisions are bad. I've had times I just slide right off the statue or hit it even though I am clearly past it. This also makes it hell for Bubba.
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I think the map is well balanced but maybe slightly more killer sided and while one of the maps I like more (I just like out door maps) I feel that the because of how simple the main building is it would be improved by adding a third land mark so it's not just the hill the shack and a load of jungle gyms
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This map is really ugly the design is bad and we don't get the japanese atmosphere that we should get, killer sided map. And you should creat more interactive map like Nostromo.
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Both Yamaokas are between the most fair and balanced maps, and that's why you never see the offering on either side.
Size is on the bigger size of medium but still manageable even by m1 killers with good macro, loops are mostly well spaced out and fillers/strong tiles are well alternated, main can be extremely strong if run correctly but requires a lot of skill and reaction time from both sides.
It can spawn an incredibly nasty 3gen (rarely) or imbalanced gen spawns (more commonly), leading to boring gameplay, but I think that is way easier to fix compared to the "pick a side of the map and never leave it" of Suffopit and Azarov's resting place, due to Sanctum being smaller and the safe loops better spaced out
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The main structure is very weak for survivors with an unsafe pallet that is very easy for killers to mindgame. I also know that the chokepoint in the center of the map typically creates more points of frustration for survivors as killers can easily hold down territories and zone survivors effectively without reliance on perks or add-ons. I feel that if the main structure were expanded upon it would help create a way for survivors to effectively hold chase. At this point, if a survivor is hooked in main and is immediately chased off hook, there is little safe resource for them to use nearby. This is especially true for the unsafe pallets directly beside main within the chokepoint where a pallet may spawn around a small statue that any killer can pre-swing around and mindgame easily. Furthermore, the chokepoint in the middle forces only 1 generator to spawn in main with no balance in which side generators can spawn. Some RNG will force 4 gens to spawn on one side whereas some matches will be generous and spawn 1 in center, 2 by shack and 3 by the other side. If the chokepoint were also to be widened, it would create a generous and fair gen RNG spawn.
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I'll keep my feedback on these maps brief because I fear just like the PTB feedback, all of it will eventually be deleted anyway.
Sanctum too decidedly favours killers. Its layout of separating the map in two halves consistently creates gen clusters on each half that make it easy for a killer to protect them. This is exacerbated by the fact that the main building provides an elevation point from which the killer has an easy time overlooking their gens. It also serves as a chokepoint for the killer to control the map from, being able to see survivors trying to cross to the other side. This makes it easy to intercept and deny unhook attempts.
On top of this, the main building does not offer much in the way of outplay potential for survivors. Its pallets and windows are all essentially free hits for a killer that has a modicum of patience. The same is true for the map in general, with lots of areas featuring at most 1 playable tile, which often also tends to be an unsafe filler pallet.
My suggestions would be: Either add trees along the sides of the main building the canopies of which obscur survivor movements from above, or add a tunnel leading through the main building. You can also have gens spawn on the sides of the main building, dissolving the hard clusters. You should also consider removing at least one of the gaps in the railings on the main building, such that there aren't always opportunities for the killer to drop down and catch out survivors, be it as they traverse the map or after they have vaulted one of the main windows. For the map at large, increase the safety of the rock filler pallets, but also make it a bit more likely for these fillers to spawn instead of maze tiles. If unsafe fillers spawn, it should be on the edges of the map, where just like the unsafe window tiles ("Z-walls") they give survivors at least something to play with. Replace the maze tile spawn next to shack with a filler tile. Shack should never really have a maze tile spawn directly adjacent to it, even an LT wall is problematic if it chains into shack window.
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