Is this what devs call "solving the camping problem"?
I mean, if they are going to allow me to unhook, can we at least have a fair range? This way the killer can stay at a safe distance and only get close to hook when chasing a survivor.
I just wish I had a perk to pause my struggle. Problem solved. Anti-camp perk. Balanced. Healthy.
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The feature is not "Anti-camp" it is "Anti-Facecamp"
By design, it is doing exactly what it is supposed to here, by preventing the killer from facecamping. Additionally, it does look like your AFC bar is filling, but slowly because another survivor is nearby.
Also, i'd argue here that the killer is actually throwing the game here for your team. You are on second hook, so thats 60 seconds before you die. The killer is camping here there are 2 gens. Your team could probably finish at least 1 of those gens, and potentially both of them if there was any previous progress and get 1-2 of them out. Yeah you'd probably die, but camping here is actually probably not a good idea. But your team is making it work here by not playing against the camping properly.
They also could slam 1 gen together, then do a hook trade since it looks like neither of them are on death hook and do the same thing again if the killer continues to camp if you all wanted to try to get 3 out, but its very risky.
Now, i know you'll say, "we can't know they are camping" and i agree with that, its personally why i think kindred should be basekit, but that's a different discussion.
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The fun fact is that bubba can still camp in this way without any "penalty".
PGJSF.
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You're not entitled to a free unhook
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You're almost sacrificed and there's 2 gens left why should she let you unhook for free lol?
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So does a free hook stage.
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This is a killer attempting to secure a kill post mid game... what's the issue?
If wanting an example of inappropriate gameplay it really isn't. Defending a hook in this scenario makes perfect tactical sense.
The mechanic you are talking about is to provide a counter to the most egregious form of "face camping" by offering a chance at greater playtime without the assistance of a team mate. A situation not represented here by the scenario in the provided screen grab.
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Most people called out that this would be exactly what happens when they first announced this feature. It just teaches people to proxy camp instead which is even more effective.
In fact, I think it's even easier to get someone off the hook with a facecamp than a good proxy camp most of the times as you can stay healthy right up to the hook and effectively trade. Where with proxy-camping, you're risking losing a health state 16+ meters away from the hook and a potential to not even get the trade off.
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Killer Mains always like to preach that it is a Anti-Facecamp-Feature. But yet it is just a waste of work. Because against actual facecamping, nothing would have needed to be done, because actual facecamping was almost never happening.
Yet, camping is very present and the feature did not change anything. In fact, it just made it more frustrating, because you see a stupid bar which does not even fill up while the Killer stares at you and will be at the Hook anyway when someone tries to Unhook.
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Camping wasn't intended on being impossible to do with the system. It solely exists to prevent the killer from standing in front of the hook in an attempt to prevent any save from occurring. Now killers need to back away and give room for survivors to at least hook trade.
Unhooks can never be risk free as it would eliminate the killers ability to build pressure with hooks.
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Yeah that hook stage wasn't free the killer downed him that's not free unless he plot wised into a hook
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I really don't know why they even made this system. Facecamping was dead the moment they removed hook grabs. Why did they put all this work into a full system that doesn't actually do anything? I've seen it trigger once in 500+ games and that was because a friendly killer intentionally triggered it. Seems like a waste of resources. It would have made more sense to make a system that makes it possible to unhook against camping instadown killers like bubba, billy, etc. This remains a problem and there is still no counterplay that doesn't result in someone dying.
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To shut survivor mains up. They can say, “there we did something about camping. Now shut up and buy this goth girl cosmetic.” And guess what? People will shut up, buy that goth girl cosmetic, and continue being camped lol
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Honestly I doubt the system took much work to implement, maybe a few dozen lines of code and a quick and simple element for the HUD.... Unless there were some wild dependencies they needed to account for, it was likely just a simple script. Ironic that I feel like it gets more complaints after its inclusion rather than that middle ground between when hook grabs were disabled and its implementation: People want it to do more than it advertises, while it does exactly as written on the tin.
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Seems more like a team issue than a killer issue imo. Why is no one on a gen?
You could easily do a gen while someone else hovers then forces a trade.
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I didnt know survivors will never reach to the next hook stage in the next 60sec.
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Its not about winning and losing. But mostly the experiment of game play for the hooked survivor.
Saying “no one on gen” prove the AFC mechanic is pointless.
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I believe I'm not biased. I just don't understand why people say that survivors are not entitled to a free health state, but killer is entitled to a free hook state (by proxycamping).
Facecamping is the same thing as proxycamping. I don't know why we are seeing differently. The system is ineffective.
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Facecamping and Proxy Camping are not the same thing. Proxy camping gives room for survivors to get trades and if trades are timed well can really punish a killer who is only pressuring the hook and not the gens.
Proxy camping also isn't a guaranteed health state either, but way too many survivors let it be far more effective by not doing anything. In your own image, there's a survivor sitting around doing nothing. Sadako doesn't innately have an instant down ability so there's no reason he couldn't rush in for a trade. But instead he's just standing around waiting for Sadako to leave when it's clear she won't.
The system isn't ineffective. It's just doesn't do what you think it's suppose to do.
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I mean they nerfed DS and designated OTR as the "anti-tunneling" perk after saying they wanted to make it so that killers felt less inclined to tunnel so...
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TBF, OTR would probably be ok with anti tunnel... Except they also nerfed endurance stacking around that same time. Someone saw a clip of two survivors throwing a game to take 3 protection hits with endurance and listened to outcry. Even though that clip was already 2 people dead at 3 gens.
If BT ignored the hit (like MoM) instead of endurance, then OTR could actually do something. Instead, the 'counter play' doesn't even require the killer to count to 10. It's just 'mindlessly hit the guy off hook and chase until he's dead'. Which, TBH, is exactly what some people were hoping for with an anti tunnel mechanic.
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A short history lesson…
At one point in DBD history (prior to patch 6.1.0), camping could potentially cost a killer the game. I think both sides at the time recognized it as a throw.
Killers who couldn't really keep up with survivors in other ways (as in they couldn’t apply adequate pressure) often resorted to this to secure at least one kill. If they were savvy, they might get two.
Interestingly enough, this particular scenario is where the term “genrush” originates. In these days survivors fought back against camping (face and proxy) by rushing through gens.
Usually the cost was great; someone would die. But despite this more often than not the team could guarantee 3 people out. If they were savvy they could even coordinate a save to get a 4-man escape.
This isn’t the case now. Gens are much too slow, so if a killer camps one survivor to death at 3+ gens incomplete there isn’t a feasible way for the active survivors to finish enough gens to punish the killer for camping.
For a long time BHVR seemed OK with this dynamic. I personally think it allowed them to be hands off in a way they seem to prefer. But after a while popular streamers who mained killers complained about this, and would not stop. So, we ended up with a lot of the changes you see today: Camping & tunneling (which has actually always been META but was much harder to pull off in the old days) being super efficient strategies that survivors have little to no recourse against.
I hope this clears some things up for you.
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I mean even under the best circumstances being on hook is boring.
I usually do not get frustrated with camping, the annoyance comes with people who play like in the screenshot that basically let me die for no reason. If I die for some escapes it is well worth it.
Also, Sadako is a terrible face camper. She is powerless to stop a hook trade. There are worse proxy campers for sure. Huntress, Michael, and Oni come to mind.
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Why is it a "waste of work"? Enough people were specifically complaining about facecamping, so it did happen and it was a problem. The mechanic was specifically advertised as an anti-FACEcamping mechanic, and it does exactly that. If killer is FACEcamping, you get to unhook yourself for free (on top of the free BT that you already had). At no point did the devs ever say that they were intending to discourage or remove camping (not the face type) - in fact, they have consistently said that camping is a legitimate strategy.
I get that survivor players don't like it (I don't like it either when I play survivor), but when I play killer I also don't like having three gens pop during my first chase because survivors are coordinating on comms splitting up on gens while their fourth buddy who is the designated looper runs me through all of the most powerful loops on a map before I can get a down. Then they coordinate to pallet save, flashlight save and body block to deny hooks. But the devs say that this is fine too, so I live with it.
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There was almost no facecamping happening. So there was no need to put work into that IMO. It was just waste of someones time who could have worked on different things for the game.
In the end, it did not solve anything, aside from the 1 in 100 games where the Killer was actually facecamping. So yeah, glad that we have tunneling left and right, but one out of 100 games does not have a facecamper anymore.
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Seems like there were a lot of Face Camping posts/complaints in the past.
Not a fan of the new system, though.....I've only seen it proc 1x.
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Number of posts does not mean anything and you should know this. We have posts here that people lose against some tournament-SWFs and yet we all know that it will not happen as frequently as people claim.
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The unhook isn't free either it takes time away from the survivors goals, a survivor unhooking isn't a survivor on a gen. Even for self unhooks, the time spent on the hook is time away from a gen, no unhook is free. I can be intentionally obtuse too
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If the goal for AFC was to implement a system that allows Survivors at least the opportunity to trade hooks, I think it has failed. I've honestly only seen the AFC system activate when the Killer is absolutely new to the game and doesn't yet know it exists. It may make the game a little bit more bearable to brand new Survivor players in Solo Q, but that's all. I'd say the AFC system does that reasonably well. But nobody should pretend it does anything else beyond this. It does nothing to stop Bubba, Ghost face, Oni, Billy, Iri Hatchet Huntress or any other instadown Killer from camping a hook to secure a kill.
Sadako is not an instadown Killer and Survivors in this situation should be able to force a trade but let's be real, Solo Q is sadly often not that well co-ordinated.
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Survivors upset that the killer is using a comeback tactic part 4063746835406743
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If you're able to unhook without any risks whatsoever yes it's free lol I don't think you realise the definition of "free" a survivor running into you is a free hit because you don't need to work for it the definition doesn't change because you had to walk there or press m1 on your mouse "I want an unhook with 0 risk at 2 gens" that's wanting a free unhook
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tl;dr there is no way to stop proxy camping without it being abused/unfairly punishing the killer. Hooks need a massive overhaul if you want true anti camp.
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That distance is fine and it's not facecamping. Survivor could sneek up and unhook before that killer could get a hit on the unhooker and grabs are gone.
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You're not understanding what they said. Im not sure if its intentional or not.
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I see what you're saying and though @Aven_Fallen is correct that it can mean nothing, you'll find it usualy only means nothing to those who's ideals it doesn't support.
10,000 posts of face camping can't all be accurate and pertain to the topic. But I bet at least 25% is? maybe half?
Anyway, its definitely not an 'All or Nothing' as I'm sure both of you would agree. If not, please detail!
Anyway, the AFC system isn't doing what most of the player base was hoping it would do. It's working on a few killers, but its not working as efficient as BHVR would like, I would wager.
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You can never unhook without risks because simply being hooked is the risk. I'm sorry you're unable to understand that lol
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I believe that camping and tunneling are things that the majority of the community finds valid, but thinking more deeply, if these things were removed from the game we could finally buff some killers properly and without fear.
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Buddy it was meant to make killers not camp if they get the same result from moving a couple steps back the system is poorly made. Nothing has changed what good is a system that makes it so you don’t have to look directly at a killer while they prevent you from playing the game the results are overall still the same
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But that doesn’t make sense you say killers do it for pressure but camping allows for people to just do gens which takes pressure away from them whos to say the survivors won’t just let you sit there waiting for a trade while they all progress on gens
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It wasn't made to stop camping in general and BHVR explicitly said that before it was released. They said it was SOLELY to affect face-camping and no other forms of camping, which it does well.
Proxy camping always was FAR more common and FAR more effective, but sadly it wasn't ever supposed to do anything about it.
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It was literally pointed out in the patch notes that it was "Anti FACE CAMP" not "Anti camp:
Specifically this section here:
Its literally called "Anti Face-Camp Feature"
I get that you don't like "proxy camping" but there isn't a system for dealing with that. Nor really should there be outside of serious systemic changes to how hooks and unhooking work. When a killer is proxy camping a hook trade is always possible. Generally you should work on gens, and just before they go to second stage, someone hook trades. Repeat that once or twice and you'll finish all the gens with the killer having no kills or hooks.
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And I’m telling you it’s a pointless system it changed literally nothing if they wanted chances for trades taking away hook grabs did that so they already had something got stopping face camp since a single person could get an unhook and trade
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This is proxy camping, the act of camping by remaining within the proximity of the hook without being in the survivor's face. This is the form of camping the devs have repeatedly stated is completely valid and endorsed, hence why AFC does little to punish it.
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I must say, in my games as killer post-AFC I was rather scared to linger around the hook for too long, unless there was another survivor. But having it experienced as a survivor, it sure fills up much slower then expected. I literally had a game with a survivor called something-something-facecamp-enjoyer, and when I found that one first, I hooked her in the basement and stood there for a good while staring into her eyes, then left. My plan was to face camp her for fun and then let her unhook herself, but I didnt want to throw and wait out the whole 1st hookstage -2s --- well, turned out that I only sorta 85%ed her unhooking progress and by then the other survivors were too scared and she nearly died first hook, even when I moved over to the other side of the map.
I kinda get it, AFC should only punish literal face camping and then some, but I honestly think that the game would benefit from making the bar fill up a bit faster, but everyone seeing the bar, fellow survivors AND killers. A lot of my paranoia as killer stems from the fact that I have no idea how the AFC bar actually works, its like a total mystery to me and a too far bar could feel really unfair and punishing. But by making it faster during real campy situations, but transparent for everyone, the game could be much better.
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Devs never even tried to solve camping at all. They were baited into the thought that facecamping was such a big deal that they completely forget that proxy-camping always was the real deal. What did anti-facecamp even change? those who did it just now know how far away they have to stay to ignore the mechanic entirely and still can easily force a instant trade at least.
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Simplest solution is to increase hook state timers. Should have been done in the same patch gen times were increased.
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