DS's 5 second stun was never complained about before it was nerfed -- so why now?
It's kind of funny watching killer players whine about the recently announced DS buff, saying that 5 seconds is too much. But, the DS stun time literally used to be 5 seconds and NOBODY complained about that part of the perk. The only things that were complained about DS were the old variations where you didn't lose it on conspicuous actions, but that was patched out a long time ago.
But now that DS is being restored to its former glory, suddenly it's a massive problem to some people. This is making me believe that killers have gotten so used to winning games by just hard tunneling since survivors don't have a strong counter to it.
New DS will not affect you if you simply don't tunnel. If you have an issue with new DS, YOU are the exact reason why this perk had to be buffed.
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It was complained about, everyone collectively forgot after the nerf.
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It was complained about BEFORE they made it remove on conspicuous actions. After that everybody pretty much agreed the perk was a balanced anti-tunneling perk. Then they nerfed it to 3 seconds which most people at the time agreed was not necessary.
Why are people trying to rewrite the story now? lol
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I seem to recall people complain about the length of the stun, especially killers who mained M1 killers with no chase power. Meanwhile, killers like Nurse, Blight, Huntress etc didn't really get effected as hard because they could catch up with their power.
If anything, I'm starting to feel gaslighted by this community over DS.
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Enduring was reflected because there were complaints. Don't you know?
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the thing is , while am totally okay about making the perk usable with 5 seconds stun because 3 seconds was a total joke on the average solo q matches were people waste resources like candy, they haven't fixed one of the most annoying and unfair part of the perk with this BUFF:
"still can be used aggressively by some players to the point were the killer is going to be forced to tunnel and eat a DS when they have no choice …like when people use their DS just to tank a hit with bt basekit- OTR and them get away with that easily because if you pick them up you get punished by that and don't make the argument that the killer MUST WAIT 60 - 45 SECONDS AVERAGE TO HOOK THEM THATS JUST SILLY survivors can repair 3 gens during that time pretty quickly.
MY SUGGESTION: make it so the perk disables collision with the killer while any endurance effect its active or just make it so it removes collision while active, that's it.
I hate when people use their DS like that and them, they complain about getting tunneled, like bro just go away let me chase someone else.
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nah the part that was complained was its use in the endgame
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Yup, and that also got patched out.
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Because there is a tunnelling epidemic at present and a lot of bad players are getting easy wins from targeting the first less experienced survivor they find and relentlessly tunnelling them out of the match.
In my over 4k hours since 2019 I have never seen tunnelling like we have now and it is handing very unskilled players wins they don't really deserve and now they are crying that tunnelling will not be the easy win it has been.
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I actually saw fewer complaints about that than I did the stun duration, being that the duration felt miserable to sit through every time a bully squad forced you to tunnel them via bodyblocks or CJ techs.
Though the #1 complaint was being able to pop a gen in the killers face after they ate a DS because inconspicuous actions weren't a thing.
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One side thinks the perk is now going to be game breaking and proves the game is survivor sided, the other seems to think the perk is useless and proves the game is killer sided.
I guess that means the perk is balanced now then right?
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Because the last time we had 5s DS was old dbd. The game has changed much in the meantime and the pressure burned all idle bumbling and doing cute things out of survivors, leaving just mean and lean efficency in its place. Gens are already flying and many feel that tunneling is their only defense, however small and insignificant it my seem, thus feeling like they are put into a lose/lose situation soon.
I learned how to play against old DS in the past, and I had an extremely aggressive playstyle that relied on getting downs fast, with little to ne gen defense, so I guuuueeeess that I'll do alright, but yeah, players are overexaggerating and drama queens.
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As Main Killer,I honestly don't mind about the 5 seconds. It's totally fine if u still loose the perk if u touch a generator or heal your team. The main purpose of this is not tunneling and I agree that tunneling is a bad experience for the survivor and I usually don't like to tunnel unless a guy deserve that.
The old perks that I really hate it was OLD DS the one the survivor can sit repairing or heal itself with no fear.
IRON WILL eliminating 100% sound while injured.
these two perks was broken those days.2 -
I feel like the bulk of ds complaints was that it was just too good. It was 60 seconds of invulnerability to do what ever you wanted. A lose-lose for the killer.
>Chase them - eat ds.
>They're doing gens in your face - eat ds.
>You down and hook another survivor but find them again - eat ds
It absolutely needed a nerf, but all of those at once pretty much killed it. Hell, I remember people suggesting that you should be able to use it multiple times per match because it was that bad.
Though, the wild disparity between killers doesn't help. Against Nurse and Blight, it's an empty perk slot. This up coming version has a meaningful stun, but with multiple conditions that stop it from being oppressive.
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It kinda was although it wasn't what the majority of people had a problem with DS was. Tbh like a lot of others are saying, 5 sec DS helps against the weaker killers but not the stronger ones. This is only reducing the variety of killers.
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I've seen this suggestion a few times... and the one issue with it... is your fast killers can deliberately run in the survivor and do a "DS check". No collision? Free to tunnel.
Might be fine because OTR is a thing, but the perk loses value because killers can check you before they tunnel you.
I was expecting a 4 second and an additonal 4 second power disable instead of a flat 5. It would mean Nurse, Blight, Spirit, Hillbilly get hit a little harder, compared to the likes of Pig, Freddy, Myers, Trapper, etc.
But the 5s is probably fine, its not that easy to weaponise... it can still throw a game attempting to misuse it.
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It was actually DS working in endgame that I recall being complained about. When it was nerfed in 6.1 I distinctly remember pretty much unanimous agreement that cutting it down to 3s was overkill. I think it's just the same certain content creators ragebaiting their viewers with imaginary scenarios of an extra 2 seconds suddenly not making tunnelling viable.
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There was nothing more frustrating than not tunnelling all match just to reach end-game and survivors would bum-rush the save because they knew DS would protect them when they get unhooked and sprint to the exit gates.
All my hatred for DS was how it screwed over killers trying not to tunnel because survivors would take advantage of it at end-game. Once they removed the end-game activation, people stopped using it alot less, and I no longer got punished for spreading hooks. Conveniently, people stopped using DS at the same time, even though it still stopped tunneling quite well at 5 seconds. Almost like they were not running it because they actually cared about being tunnelled.8 -
New DS will not affect you if you simply don't tunnel. If you have an
issue with new DS, YOU are the exact reason why this perk had to be
buffed.I don't tunnel and I can still will deal with OTR if survivors are running it. The change will make everyone run OTR+DS which all killers will be dealing with regardless if you play nice or sweaty. The only difference between playing sweaty vs nice is the frequency that you have to deal with the perks.
DS+BT at hook was dumb before. The survivor getting saved would always body block because if you tunnel them they had DS. Now with DS not working at endgame survivors will try to force the DS since you lose it either way. OTR makes it so survivors can now take that situation and take it else where in the map. If I get unhooked with OTR+DS+UB why am I not going 2 tiles over and body blocking the killer twice? If the gens are about to be finished my DS is turning off regardless. Is that somehow not the correct play for the survivor? And if so, that means a killer playing nice now has to deal with this buff.
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Simply because they used to tunnel out of the game very early making their matches easier. Now will be harder to tunnel out especially if the player is decent and if eventually kill that player you have lost the game.
It's an inconvenience for tunneling killer.
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This. The endgame deactivation is by far the most important factor. Conspicuous actions being second. With these two in effect the actual duration of the stun is virtually inconsequential. (Within reason, nothing else stuns for more than about 6 seconds at most so don't come at me with 20 second stun straw men)
As someone who plays a lot if killer and never runs DS as a survivor anyway, since the endgame deactivation was implemented I've though the stun could do with being improved.
Either bumping it back to 5 seconds, or allowing it to proc on both potential unhooks, as that would serve as a true tunneling deterrent.
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You joined March 2023, well after the DS nerf. How do you know?
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Some people join the forums recent but have been playing for years.
I have a 5 year badge but less than 400 posts. It's just because I don't post too often on forums, and I wager a good chunk of players are the same.Post edited by ExcelSword on6 -
IDC if it makes any killers life harder for tunneling, good, it's what it should do, stop returning to the hook every unhook if you don't want to risk your time being wasted there. There needs to be more in place to deter the current META, if anything I think stuns should disable killer powers like Nurse/Blight in general, I don't think it should be a DS specific thing. Hyper mobility should be punished if used poorly, that's what this game needs more of.
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But we're specifically talking about the community, IE: These forums.
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but people do the same with OTR , if the survivor is making no injure sounds after unhooked the killer already knows that OTR is in play so i dont see the issue is not like a survivor will intentionally ran into the killer to let them know about not having collision unless the survivor is just dumb , just get to a pallet or window simple.
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I started the game when Sadako came out. You really think I joined the forums at the same time?
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It’s almost like other portions of the dbd community exist outside of the forums. Reddit, twitter, etc.
I don’t know why you’re assuming so much based off a forum join date. Really strange behavior if you ask me.5 -
If you weren't on the forums, though, how do you know what the community opinion was on DS?
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Steam discussions and Reddit, as well as playing survivor and being teamed with 2-3 man bully squads at the time.
Also, general research into the game that has little to no information in game will expose you to the issues of the game. Videos, mostly. I refrained from joining the forums for this long because of situations like this.
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This.
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Yeah, and when I joined in, I did the same, and encountered none of that. I came in shortly before DS got its actual conspic action nerf, and there were -no- complaints about offensive use after the conspic action nerf.
There were complaints about its use in general, definitely, with tunnelling addicts being upset that they shot themselves in the foot, but nothing about DS bodyblocking.
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I don't know if you weren't looking in the right places then, because I DEFINITELY remember people wanting DS nerfed and rejoicing when the changes came through.
Meanwhile, the tunneling problem wasn't and still isn't actually fixed. DS isn't going to stop it against decent M2 killers and low MMR survivors without buying DS are still going to suffer.
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I don't know if you weren't looking in the right places then, because I DEFINITELY remember people wanting DS nerfed and rejoicing when the changes came through.
Oh, every change will have someone cheering on the sidelines. Tunnel-junkies would rejoice for any DS nerf.
But that is different from DS being a problem to non-tunnelling killers.
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The patch that nerfed the stun time to 3 seconds was also the same patch that removed ds being active in end game.
But also there were complaints about the 5 second stun time because bhvr buffed ds to 5 seconds when it worked with enduring and promised to revert said change after they nerfed ensuring to not work with ds. Many people were complaining about the promise not being upheld for years.
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And I explained why it's a problem to non-tunneling killers, yet somehow it doesn't get through despite carefully explaining it.
I don't even know why it's a bad thing to say we shouldn't promote using anti-tunnel perks to go on the offense while finding a solution that benefits both sides and all MMR ranges.
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Okay so I've been here for a millennia on the forums and what he's saying is true.
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And I explained why it's a problem to non-tunneling killers, yet somehow it doesn't get through despite carefully explaining it.
Likewise, I've explained why it's not a problem to non-tunnelling killers, but that doesn't get through either, despite carefully explaining it.
I don't even know why it's a bad thing to say we shouldn't promote using anti-tunnel perks to go on the offense while finding a solution that benefits both sides and all MMR ranges.
Because it takes BHVR two years to change a 3 back to a 5 and the forum killers are at it again, throwing out the anchor and clamouring to have it undone, inventing once-in-a-blue-moon scenarios to try and paint the perk as a problem.
Tunnelling is the issue that killers have been digging their heels in on the most. It's been a problem since the game's inception, but we're going to massively overanalyse a perk that historically stopped being a problem after the conspic action nerf, minus the EGC activations.
'Anything but DS', and once DS is off the table, it's straight back to 'no solution warranted'. And then we can go another two years without anything being done.
I've been here for as long as DS has had its deactivation conditions. No one complained about DS being a problem to non-tunnelling killers.
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It was literally covering the forums, youtube and twitch streamers. One of the top most discussed issues in the game.
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Again, as I have explained it a ton now, it's not JUST DS.
It's DS/OTR/UB being used offensively that's an issue. Buffing DS doesn't fix tunneling against most M2 killers and punishes M1 killers stuck with overly-altruistic survivors running this build.
I've even seen killers claim 3 gens and facecamps were 'once in a blue moon' and we know that ain't true.
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It… Really wasn't, my guy. There were complaints about the existence of second-chance perks altogether, about survivors always using the same set of perks, but not about non-tunnelling killers getting hit with DS.
OTR wasn't a thing back before DS got nerfed to 3 seconds, what are you talking about?
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I didn't say anything about OTR and pre-nerf DS…?
Anyway, look, you can at LEAST agree that locking a perk that's supposed to help survivors avoid being tunneled behind a licensed chapter is a bad idea right? Regardless of any builds DS can be paired with?
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But you said "It's DS/OTR/UB being used offensively that's an issue"?
And I get what you mean, and there should be a baseline solution to the problem, -something- is better than a few more years of -nothing-.
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The conspicuous action nerf was tastefully done and it was only every 5s to counter enduring reducing all stuns, so changing it to 3s was never really that bad except for middle of the pack players who weren't smart enough to use it synergistically instead of relying on the perk to do all the work itself
Changing to 5s doesn't really fix the top end problem of the perk against high tier killers but does make it much better for middle of the pack survivors and against killers who don't have mobility
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Did I say DS/OTR/UB was being used or is and will be this entire time?
Before it used to be DS/Dead Hard/UB/Adrenaline, if my memory serves me right.
And going forward, we're probably going to end up with a similar meta as to before the shakeup: Anti tunnel/bodyblock perks and strong regression. And that's me hoping I'm wrong about the bodyblocking. Not looking forward to that.
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Did I say DS/OTR/UB was being used or is and will be this entire time?
Was. As per the topic.
And going forward, we're probably going to end up with a similar meta as to before the shakeup: Anti tunnel/bodyblock perks and strong regression. And that's me hoping I'm wrong about the bodyblocking. Not looking forward to that.
OTR might need a fix, but it needed one from day 1. DS wasn't the problem.
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DS topic wise, I said it was complained about in the past for other reasons. DS for what you harp on me about is the current way survivors use it. Just to clear that up.
And I just wish we had something to help with tunneling without sacrificing a perk slot and being forced to buy a DLC or wait out the shrine. Heck, OTR isn't that bad of an anti-tunnel perk by itself imo aside it being able to be negated immediately off hook. Paired with other perks, it becomes problematic and aggravating to face.
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So I just say overall I am fine with DS being 5 secs but I still don't like this buff for the same reasons as Otz has been very vocal about. I'm not going to list all of them since they are the same reasons as Otz and he has talked about it in a tweet, on his discord, and in today's video which I share since I think it's a great video. That said I will talk about a few of the things. This buff may look good on paper but it's just a short-term fix, and honestly heavy limits the devs when comes to the future of the game. Also, we just going back to the days before the meta shake-up where every survivor build will just have DS in it with most likely UB and DH. Not really fun for either the killer or the survivors imo. Lastly its the fact that a anti-tunnel perk are going to be tied to dlc perks. So this DS update isn't going to help newer players at all bc if the killer catches on that a survivor is new to the game(either by how they acting in the match or just looking at their hours in stream before the match) they will tunnel them out bc the chances that they have paid $5 for DS are pretty low. The better way was at least to rework DS and move its effect to one of the useless free perks Survivor has like This not Happening. Then at least everyone has access to a anti tunnel perk.
There are other reasons but I really encourage everyone to watch Otzs video today on the DS buff:Also, you see that nowhere in this video he is saying that tunneling should be encouraged, he just saying that there are much better ways to stop tunneling and the buff to DS is just the easy way out for the devs. I agree with him when he says around the 10:07 mark: "I'm sure many other people have told them that they could make some changes to make the anti-tunneling experience better for everyone not just for some players and instead they chose to do the simpler, lazier, more shortsighted option."
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The move from DS to OTR was just worse for everyone. OTR is better at bodyblocking against non-tunnelling killers since it doesn't incapacitate you, but it gets disabled if the killer tunnels harder. It's remarkable how wrong BHVR managed to get that one.
It takes skill, in a game like this, to make a decision that is worse for both sides of the fence.
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I mean I wasn't really annoyed by the 5 seconds specific. But I was really hard annoyed because the loose loose situations of ds/ub as bodyblock and that I sometimes got ds'd because I chased too quickly and downed the person after another hook before. So I was pretty happy to see the perk less used
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this is true tho
I didn’t know about the DBD Forums and therefore didn’t join until like 2020 or sth., However, I was playing this game since 2018.
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