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A thread formerly titled "Killers need to improve and get better"
EDIT - The point of this thread can be found here:
The original text of the thread read:
There are many discussions on what is unfair for killers but as someone that plays roughly 50/50 killer/survivor I don't see much discussion around criticizing killer's lack of improvement. I get that DbD is a popular game and there are new players coming into the game all the time, but barring that the game has been out for many years and most of the problematic killers are not new players.
Main issue I see with killers is that they overly prioritize gens. They consistently go for dry kicks on low progress gens and let survivors pre-run. Killers have got to start learning gen speeds and being proactive about pressuring survivor hook states early in the match, or in the event that they do get a hook, proactively pressuring different survivors and force the survivor team to do alturism and get off gens. There are perks available to help out with this so "I can't get a down" is not an excuse. Running around kicking gens blindly is not doing you any favors and in most cases you are handing the game over to the survivors.
This brings up the second issue: Many killers don't force survivors to make dead zones because they want to kick gens and are afraid to loop with a survivor. Killers have to learn that the survivor team has to use pallets in order to loop, and in addition survivors need to be rationing their use of pallets to avoid dead zones, everyone needs to do this. No one is expecting you to end every chase in 5 seconds or win every 50-50 like a looping god but be proactive and learn to use tiles to your advantage, there are myriad youtube tutorials on the types of tiles and how to use them effectively as well as aura reading perks and items to help you see the survivor while looping and tagging. Time saving perks like coup, STBFL and others are also at your disposal.
Third, Too many killers complain about being gen rushed too often, but aside from learning to use tiles better and improving your map sense and knowledge, are you also playing to prevent gen rushing? do you zone survivors into dead zones and spread pressure while forcing the team off gens to prevent gen rushing or do you kick a gen and then wander off aimlessly?
TLDR: Too many killers complain that the game is unfair but they don't work to improve their game by watching tutorials or run the perks needed to balance their weaknesses. Sometimes you are the main cause of your own demise during a match.
Comments
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This is a people thing, not a killer thing.
"Too many killers complain that the game is unfair but they don't work to
improve their game by watching tutorials or run the perks needed to
balance their weaknesses. Sometimes you are the main cause of your own
demise during a match."You could just as easily take this entire statement and replace "killers" with "survivors".
It's just human nature to be this way, not specifically one side.
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Agreed, altho is more of a dbd player thing rather than a killer thing. People to this day do not know how easy it is to counter new sadako, and there is a ton of videos explaining how easy it is to destroy her, yet you see a lot of players die to her.
Also dredge, I still see people locking two lockers next to each other, and I am like HOW??? WHY???
It is more because its way easier to conclude the game is unbalance rather than admit you lost because you are not good enough.
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Dude I suck as a survivor and yet I climbed to iri 3 as a solo queue before the pip change with great ez.
I could not do the same with killer.
Many survivors are bad and are always carried by 1 or 2 players on the team. And these are the ones devs consistantly are trying to please by making m1 killers unwinnable.
Focus on nerfing nurse and SM as a first step instead.
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As long as we can agree that survivors also need to improve and get better.
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Well I still do it when I play Survivor :)
Well I mean, it’s a Dredge, which usually is a chill game LOL
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i see what you did there
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Killers need to improve? Who doesn't?
You are talking mostly about beginners though.
There are many ways to win but even being rushed, there are ways to counter.
As killer, I main Nurse but I also play other killers. It generally goes well with a good half of roster. I'm no beginner: I've got more than 3.5K hours in total : Steam (killer mostly) + Epic (when I don't want to be asked to play with friends) + PS5 (survivor mostly).
Yesterday for the rift, I've played The Artist: a killer I don't like and don't even fully understand.
It was in the saloon map. It wasn't going very well and not only because I was trying to do that stupid challenge. By the time I've got my first hook, three generators had popped almost simultaneously. (So about 90 seconds in: they had toolboxes.)
I didn't really care but I've decided to take that opportunity to do a small experiment. I've tunneled and proxy-camped the survivors one by one (Something I never do as I care more about having fun chasing than anything else.)
As bad as I am with that killer I've wiped them out with relative ease.
Two of them were raging in the end game chat, saying very nasty things. Something that makes no sense to me as for one, they didn't play easy by doing these gens so fast and for two, why would I be bound by made-up rules?
All this to say:
I'm pretty sure that by playing "nasty", a killer can almost always win, or at least close to that 60% target ratio.
I don't plan to try though.
I also need to say I've got many tactics very different from that one that aren't very enjoyable for survivors. I regularly get two to four rage-quits when I use them. (And these I do often as I see them as "applying pressure".)
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Btw to the OP, all the mistakes you pointed out are like amateur mistakes, so your advice is useful for Killers with less than 500 hours.
But once you reach certain MMR, you’ll soon realise that it really isn’t about how you improve anymore. You might still lose the game even when you made all the correct decision in the match.
Take me as example. I hate slowdown perks in general, so I don’t run them. For me I legit can only win games against bad Survivors which I can completely outplay them in chases.
But against competent Survivors who’s able to go toe-to-toe with me, it’s basically a lose since I really don't have enough time to chase everyone.
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tbf… there is A LOT of things to learn about the killers. and dredge is kind of rare.
so I can forgive people for not knowing about the locker thing.
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Here my problem some of this. You said killer need to improve but my issue is there no resources in game to help killers learn the skills you list. The in game tutorial does nothing other than teach you the bare minimum and I be honest I hate looking up videos someday bc alot of them are out of date bc the game has changed so much over the past few years. You have to put in more time looking for a guide than actually playing the game.
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As long as the game is balanced around kill rate there is no reason to get better. It's like why bother playing Singularity when you can achieve the same results with Wraith.
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no reason to improve if the matchmaking gives you 10 easy games for 1-2 hard games
it's designed this way to hide the balance issues at the top level because bhvr simply cannot balance the game
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Yeah it's def both sides but in regards to the human nature thing it's really bad in this game compared to others.
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I never got the complaints. I only met one swf that was actually annoying and they weren’t good so it was an easy 4k and I’ve normally gotten 2-3k’s for a long time. It seems fair at lower and mid levels. I never got the complaints.
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I'd say this is partially true. No matter what happens, I can't fix my teammate from bringing No Mither or Weaving Spiders or trolling to make me lose. I can't force the correct person to get off the gen, and the correct person to stay on the gen. I can't change anything that my supposed teammates do.
I can make a better decision in chase on both sides. I can chose to provide pressure on a side objective (heal/snuff boon) or main objective (pump specific gen/chase specific Surv) on both sides. There are nearly no cases as Killer where you can lose due to no fault of your own (outside of blatant cheaters). It is the (vast vast vast) majority of cases as Survivor where you can lose due to things outside of your control (IME).
If I could play a solo Survivor gamemode instead, then I could actually improve and have my wins and losses be in my control, but as long as I have to rely on trolling teammates, the majority of my losses are going to be out of my control and infinitely more frustrating.
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I think everyone can agree on this, regardless what side you favor.
The game has some serious issues on both sides. Maps, Perks, you name it. While we can get at each other about why it sucks for one side, its probably just as bad on the other. BHVR needs to fix things, and we/they know it.I'd rather ask why its taking forever to do anything meaningful, instead of… well, not. Our animosity towards one another would be better served, for all of us, if we could just get some answers from BHVR.
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"There are nearly no cases as Killer where you can lose due to no fault of your own"
I completely 100% disagree with this statement. There are many games you lose on killer outside of your control. I would argue killer has vastly less agency than survivor. You have to stop thinking of survivor as 4 different people, you are one team. The agency comparison is 1v4, not 1v1v1v1v1. The game is in the survivors hands to lose or win, that is agency. Almost all games I lose are because me or my team played bad. The team playing bad is still my agency, we are one. Most the killer games I lose I would replay them exactly the same, that isn't agency. You make the mind game and either the survivor falls for it or not. Making the mind game was still the right choice either way. If both sides play perfectly the killer loses every time. That shows who has the agency.
Most games I lose as survivor I could have changed the outcome if me or my team played better, that's agency. The outcome could be changed through skill.
Most games I lose as killer I don't think the outcome could have been changed.
Post edited by Blueberry on4 -
It is quite rampant here. It's why it's hard to have an honest conversation on balance.
If you're a survivor and complain about (x), oh it's just because you're bad and need to get better.
If you're a killer and complain about (x), oh it's just because you're bad and need to get better.
This would be alleviated a lot if we can see our MMR. Then we could at least see we are going against the higher level so my skill is there or oh I am low MMR I probably do have a lot to improve on. However when everything is hidden it's all just conjecture.
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Since I mainly solo'q, it indeed is a 1v1v1v1v1.
I know it isn't supposed to be that way, but it is. And this isn't really something that can debated. Experiences differ person to person, but your view will only be a view of killers. Anyone who solo'qs enough will likely agree, but again, mileage will vary person to person.
I understand your position, I just don't think it's blanket.
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I mainly solo queue as well, but I understand it's still a 1v4. The killer isn't playing against just me, I have 3 other teammates helping me complete my objective as well. Thinking of the game as a 1v1 is how we got the balance issues we do have currently in the first place.
It's annoying if you get selfish teammates but you are still working on the same objectives. It is objectively a 1v4.
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I have 3 other teammates helping me complete my objective as well.
I'm really glad you have team mates like that! Gives me hope for the game. PLease send them to me as I do NOT get those. I am alone, I feel alone, and I usually die alone. While they dance in the gates, rather do bones or chests, or even remain in that locker all game.
Experiences differ. Vastly apparently. But we are not the same. Even objectively, sometimes I wonder if the killer bribed my team or something. Ill try to record a few and toss some up here.2 -
I agree with many people in the post that say this is more of a beginners problem rather than a "killer". Both sides suffer from people with this mentality, and ultimately I think a big contributer is how unfreindly DBD is to new players.
In my opinion, typically in early games, killers do a little better, as surivvors don't know how to loop, or even run while looking behind them yet, so the new killers steadily start climbing due to MMR, not because they are playing so much better but because survivor is not as straight forward as killer when starting out. This results in killers getting thrown into much higher lobbies than they were probably ready for because once they start facing survivors who aren't completely new, they have had no experience going against them. It can feel like some whiplash and then it's a slow grind to get balanced.
And on the flip side of the same coin, survivors start out getting steamrolled pretty quickly, and continue to feel steamrolled for a very long time. Once you get higher up, the game shifts, and surviving because much more possible, but it is also a slow grind, which can make the game feel super unfair because you've been playing for 300 hours and you've only won a handful of matches.
I feel like DBD is very unfriendly and chaotic for new players, it doesn't explain anything on either side, and it feels like they throw you in the pool and expect you to teach yourself to swim or you're gonna drown. Not to mention you don't have access to many good perks or add-ons in the beginning either. Here's hoping something gets better for newer players.
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Just all killers? No nuance, no talk about different killer power differences?
Are we going to pretend all killers are as powerful as Nurse or Blight?
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Visible mmr would be great. It would shut down so many people who tell others to get better.
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The problem is, the game can’t be balanced that way. The killer should have a significant advantage against an individual survivor since it is a 1v4.
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I agree. It definitely should be that way. And I think it is. If we view it as a 1v4.
If we apply the same to a perspective of 1v1v1v1v1, then should the killer basically have all the advantage this gives following the formula?
My point wasn't anything other than: Its a 1v4 in pitch only. If you with a friend on comms, then its a 1v2v1v1. Feels like it anyway.I do hold hope that as one climbs this supposed MMR ladder, then solo'Q survivors get better, right?
……right? :/1 -
I also play both sides 50/50
Kicking generators is a bad habit I got when I bought the game 4 years ago.
I still do it like a bad habit too. I think some have done it so many times that it's like smoking a cigarette. You don't even realise you're doing it.
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Bold of you to assume anyone on either side can improve until the devs fix the constant rubberbanding.
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This isn't a perfectly balanced game. Loadouts have a lot of impact on a match and with the amount of perks, items, killers, addons and maps we have, there is no way everything could be perfectly balanced.
Telling someone to "just git gud" when there is a balancing issue is a terrible argument. Otherwise, why don't we buff Nurse back to her initial state. 3 blinks and no cooldown doesn't sound fair to me but there were still survivors that managed to escape back then. So why not tell them to "just git gud" either?
The reason why many people prioritise gens over chases is that the killer always lacks time. Everything that can buy you even a little more time will help you out in some way and in most cases, kicking a gen will grant you more time than running after that survivor immediately. Especially when you can zone them or have a power that allows you to catch up more quickly. I agree though that kicking a low progress gen is often a waste of time.
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he's sh1tposting there was a tread a while back that was saying this to survivors he's just mirroring it it's kinna funny tbh
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Said above but I saw the other thread that was the same for survivors.
In the case of killers, it's hard for many of them to accept they have a skill issue because they're fed a pretty outrageous kill rate when they start the game. When survivors don't know how to survive, the killer wins even if they're terrible.
The problem is when they start facing stronger or same skill level survivors, they suddenly feel oppressed. It's not their fault, how could it be? They were winning and suddenly they're robbed.
I honestly felt that way back then. Blamed SWF and all that junk.
That said there's BS in this game that robs you of your agency. Far less than some people say, especially with how maps have changed recently. The majority of the time, losing as killer is your own fault.
So, yes killers need to improve. So do survivors, of course. Especially attitude-wise. One side thinks they're better than they are, the other gives up for no reason.
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Most games I lose as killer I don't think the outcome could have been changed.
No disrespect intended, but whenever I've seen someone do an objective breakdown of their losses as killer they almost always are able to point to discreet mistakes they made that led to their loss. Do you think it's possible you've simply never sat down and analyzed your mistakes in a game, or alternatively that you haven't developed the necessary skills to understand where you made mistakes?
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You’re conflating two things as the same that aren’t. Me saying there’s nothing I could have done to change the outcome is not the same thing as me saying I didn’t make mistakes. Quite different. We’re not perfect, of course I make mistakes. It’s understanding how much of an impact those mistakes have on the game that matters. My point is that correcting those mistakes much of the time would not have changed the outcome.
Now I am not talking about common games, these are much rarer outliers. This also has many factors of how often this is based on killer and other choices pre match.
I had a match recently against a 4 man that had combined dbd hours of over 40,000. So like I said, not matches most people are seeing. Their occurrences rate does go up the higher mmr you are though. After almost 11k hours myself I can pretty well deduce the impact of decisions and how much of an impact different choices would make.
There are unwinnable games as killer, but I think most survivor games could be won by improving the skill of myself or my teammates. If both sides play perfectly, the survivors win every time. Most killers rely on survivor mistakes. This is not something that applies to most dbd games mind you, these are rare high mmr matches. Most killer matches their skill could change the outcome.
There are some exceptions to what I’m saying, but it is generally speaking the case.
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Except the survivors aren't fighting each other and only have to "defeat" one opponent, so it can't be 1v1v1v1v1 because you aren't fighting them.
At worst it would be 4 separate 1v1s. And even in this perspective the killer still should have the advantage in the 1v1 because they are competing in more 1v1s.
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agreed 💯
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Yes we are
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This. This is the best thing I've heard all week.
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I would have to hard disagree with Killer having less agency than Survivor.
1) Gens - Both sides can patrol and work/regress gens, but Survivor side has a limit of people on some gens. Technically a Killer can only regress a singular gen 8 times, but that teaches Killers to play more effectively. My highest average singular regression is 5-6, but if other people need to excessively kick then maybe that is a playstyle I am unaware of. If a Survivor can't do a gen because too many teammates are also doing the gen, they have less agency. 1 Killer 0 Survivor.2) Micro/Chase - As Killer if I don't like the person I'm chasing, I can pick one of the 3 remaining players in the match. As Survivor I can't pick the Killer, or who plays that Killer, I can only be chased by 1 person per match. Killer can pick from 4, Survivor can't pick at all. 2 Killer 0 Survivor
3) Macro/(Pallets or Totems or Gens completed or broken) - As Killer, I can push chases into previous deadzones, or place myself on the side of a pallet during a break animation to corral the Survivor into going the way I want. I can also check on my Totems whenever I should chose to, and going beyond ~64m of a totem means I risk it being broken, but that is my choice to make. As Survivor, I can't choose which side pallets get broken on, and I can't prevent my teammates from using certain pallets early. I also can't stop a teammate from completing the main gen on Dead Dawg forcing a 3-gen. 3 Killer 0 Survivor.
4) Countering Best Perks from the Opposition - As Killer, I can simply not tunnel to avoid DS/OTR, I can simply slug for less than 22s to avoid UB, and I can injure people to spread pressure to prevent FTP+BU, however in some circumstances I can't avoid a Background Player save, so lets say 25% uncounterable. As Survivor, I can't avoid going down forever, so all hook based perks aren't counterable, although Aura perks can be largely countered by Distortion. Looking at sweatlord Nightlight's self reported picks compared to the official stats in February, we get mostly the same perks barring STBFL being dropped for Nowhere to Hide, and NOED dropped for Bamboozle. That gives 3/12 perks countered by Distortion, or roughly 25% counterable, and the remaining 75% uncounterable. Killer can counter more, Survivor can counter less, thus 4 Killer 0 Survivor.
5) Methods of Winning (Escape/Kill) - As Survivor I HAVE to pump gens and open gates, or 25% of the Survivor lobby can escape with hatch. Theoretically the Killer can even close the hatch, so they can deny Hatch in half of those times it even spawns, but then you can bring a key, but then we are just getting too deep in the weeds. So we can count 2 methods of escape, or 1.25 adjusted methods. Killer can kill Survivors with Hooks, Bleedouts, and Moris. Now technically some Mori's require 8 hooks (Iri offering), so .33 adjusted, some require 5 hooks (Devour Hope), so .5833 adjusted, and some only work on the Obsession (Rancor), so .25 adjusted, so we can count this as the lowest adjusted or the fact of Moris alone for 1 or .25. That gives 3 raw kill methods for Killer, and 2 raw escape methods for Survivor, or an adjusted 2.25 for Killer, and 1.25 for Survivor, with both favoring Killer. 5 Killer 0 Survivor.
By my estimates Killer contains FAR more agency than Survivor when compared category to category. I wasn't exhaustive to be fair, but IMO that would make things even more lopsided for Killer, as things like Plague deletes Altruism for Survivors, removing even more agency, or infection/dream/headtrap mechanics force or encourage Survivors to cleanse/heal/interact instead of doing other things.
See this is what I mean, "… but I think most survivor games could be won by improving the skill of myself or my teammates." I can improve my own skill, which works when I am 100% of the team, aka Killer. How can I force someone else to make the right decision and not screw up? I can't make my soloq teammates improve, thus another reason why I think I have less agency as Survivor.
If we are only taking the tippy top .0001% of matches where Survivors objectively always win, that still leaves 99.9999% of matches where I can win as Killer by playing better. That is the vast majority of matches, even at top MMR (and even if it may drop to 99% instead of 99.9999%), and always true for people below top MMR. Heck, even if we shift the decimals in both examples over, that still is 99.999% overall, 90% top MMR, still a massive majority, or more true than false.
Essentially Survivors can reach a max skill of 100, and Killers can reach a max skill of 99.5. When both play perfectly (100/100/100/100 VS 99.5), yes Survivors win, but if a single Survivor isn't perfect (or less perfect than the Killer to be more accurate), the Killer wins instead.
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There isn't a discussion because there really isn't anything to discuss. You're making a blanket generalization that generally is just an implicitly understood thing that people acting in good faith wouldn't argue. There also isn't anything to really be learned or gained from approaching any gameplay discussion in DBD through this particular entry statement. It's the sort of statement that more often just makes people automatically defensive because rarely do people who play this game and are seeking discourse about real or perceived problems with the game going to take blanket criticism well.
DBD as a game has a lot of issues that aren't really getting addressed in ways that seem to make sense for a plurality of people who play killer now or played killer in the past. The game while technically being the most mechanically balanced it has ever been in it's life seems to not feel good to play even if you do everything you've mentioned. The game more often than not feels like a pressure cooker whether you're doing well or not. Some of your suggestions forego some key facts about the game.
Kicking low percentage gens being bad- This can be a bad idea, but gen kicks are better earlier in the game rather than later in the game considering that now they are finite resource. Saving them for later is fine if survivors generally aren't able to progress the game at a decent pace, but you should treat every team as if they are going to push the pace until they prove otherwise. While you can definitely over prioritize this to a detriment it sort of needs to be a early priority considering the recent changes to the game to make kicking just less effective overall the further you get into the game and the more progress the survivors make on gens anyway.
Forcing Survivors to make dead zones- That's generally what killers want to do, but the longer you play the game as a survivor the more you learn that a lot of the map tile layouts will allow you to loop while also being rather greedy with pallets. If a survivor is determined to not use a pallet there is little you can do about that as a killer. Also most maps have pretty high density of pallets, relatively few areas where a deadzone can be made in a timely manner. You get deadzones from forcing a chase well past the point of it being a good time investment usually. Only like 6 killers in the game really require you to pre-drop in order to properly evade them in a chase. The most common scenario for most killers is a survivor greeds the pallet and goes down or they just leave loop to the next tile in chain which likely has a pallet or vault. Dealing with these takes time to learn and while tutorials help the game still needs some changes to way tiles chain and/or pallet density on some maps. Also Coup De Grace is not a time saving perk, if you're getting Coup stacks it means you're already behind. It's a decent perk to catch folks off guard, but it isn't saving you time.
Complaints about gen rushing- This is hard one to tackle. Like I said earlier the game feels like a pressure cooker no matter what and the language to express that in this game when it comes to mechanics is limited. An actual gen rush at this point isn't something that most killers in the can do anything about, but rarely is anyone actually talking about a true gen rush. They're expressing that the game feels like it goes by too fast to really enact a gameplan. That's a combination of skill issue and mechanical design flaws imo. The entire game is time management when you play killer and you can't be everywhere at once and pressure everything at once. You have to compromise and depend on specific perks to keep the pace of the game feeling manageable. It shouldn't be that way though, yet we can't just make every killer highly mobile and we can't increase the actual time it takes to do gens by default anymore. If it were up to me I'd alter both killer and survivor objectives to sort change the overall flow of the game just enough so it doesn't feel like a mad dash to get up to speed for most of the killers in the game.
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Most people playing this game are pretty mediocre (at best) at it, there is much more skill and depth to it than most people casually assume or give it credit for, most people don't reach their personal skill ceiling (or rather: skill plateau) before thousands of hours of gameplay, and there are a plethora basic, fundamental mistakes you can regularly see even high-hour players make. And most people even upon reaching their plateau do next to nothing to try and improve, such as watching and learning from better players' gameplay and tutorials, thinking practically about and practicing specific things such as mindgames and pathing, experimenting and challenging themselves by trying completely different strategies or tactics or putting restrictions on themselves (e. g. never break a pallet so as to get better at outplaying them, never drop a pallet so as to see how much you can get away with, never use M1 as Billy, don't use perks, or the like) or by looking for scrims and 1v1s to compete against consistently better opponents. Most people simply play pubs and fall into a comfort zone and play patterns beyond the boundaries of which they are not really willing to think and learn about and practice the game, to continually challenge themselves and improve in ways they within that zone cannot even conceive of, plateauing.
And they indeed don't seem to critically analyze and evaluate their own gameplay, they rather blame everything but their own performance for things that go wrong, they don't actively try to improve and are in a sort of denial about how much room to improve there is for them, the amount of mistakes they make. They might be afraid of the rude awakening actually doing stuff like scrims and 1v1s would be, an environment where you cannot blame anything but yourself because other players are competing and outperforming with the same conditions. But this wake-up call is what would start a lot of people on a path of learning and improving in ways that make the game enjoyable and engaging on levels they had previously been more or less completely oblivious to. And a path that can make you become good enough that the game's main gamemode starts to become child's play: pub matches are pretty much a joke for players that have broken through this plateau and casual mode of playing, so much so that it is trivial for them to go on winstreaks of hundreds of matches in them, even without using perks or add-ons. This is all the more so true on the killer side because doing the same on the survivor side obviously requires 4 such players teaming up.
So yes, I am dumbfounded every time people talk about how difficult and unfair the game is for them and how much still it would have to be changed, when it is factually and demonstrably true that good and even just decent players win the vast majority of their matches handedly. The reality is right there for them to see: If you improve at the game, you can leverage your skill, smarts and experience to win more often in DbD than most other popular competitive multiplayer games could allow one to. If there is a problem with the balance and fairness in this game, it's the matchmaking that makes it so players beyond a certain threshold of skill and experience barely ever lose because they are almost never facing anywhere close to competitive opposition. Imagine hearing about a game where someone went on a 2000-match winstreak and at the same time hearing countless complaints about how impossible it is to win. Most of these balance complaints are regarding killer gameplay, which makes it even more puzzling to me, because again, especially as killer where your performance potential is not at the mercy and whim of 3 other players, you can become so good that you can win with a ridiculous consistency, which is more so the actual issue. It is even more mindboggling to me to see mediocre killer players that still win 70-80+% of their matches (already a ridiculous notion in other games even for some of the world's best players in them) and yet incessantly complain about the game's balance and fairness, saying it is skewed against them. So many people in this game don't appear to want to challenge themselves and other equal or better players, they want to win basically every time, even if it's against toddlers, and yet they want to have their "I'm a really good player" cake too, so they pretend or make themselves and others believe they are at a severe disadvantage and beating the odds, and excuse the occasional loss with how it supposedly was "physically impossible" for anyone to ever win in that instance.
DbD due to its matchmaking if anything is a game that more than most other competitive multiplayer games (certainly of comparable popularity) enables one to leverage skill to win the overwhelming majority of one's matches. To a fault. A 2000-match winstreak (1947 to be precise) would be unthinkably scandalous in any such game. The major balance flaw the game in its current (and past) state has is not how difficult it is to win, it's how easy it is to win. Again, all the more so as killer, since as survivor you need 3 other players of your skill/experience level, ideally with voice comms, all being on the same page about strats and how hard to try to win and so on to be able to win with a comparable consistency you can as killer.
I have posted these before but I will gladly again: Here are Discord invites for DbD League (https://discord.gg/JKeBcgSh) and DbD Scrims (https://discord.gg/dbd-scrims-778702011553939490). On these servers, you can challenge people to 1v1s and scrimmages, either friendly or in a ranked ladder. Again, it might be a rude awakening at the beginning, but it will be an awakening all the same, and I promise you after a month or so of doing some scrims and 1v1s with some regularity, you will have grown as a player in ways you never would have in years of pub gameplay.
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It seems like it's time for me to explain the point of this thread
On March 7, someone posted the following:
My entire post here was an adaptation of that post, to see how people would react to an opinion of the same nature but from an opposite-side bias.
Since the thread my post was based on was made (9 weeks since the thread was posted) the most active dissenting comment received 44 vote-ups (as of the time of writing this post). The most active dissenting comment in this thread has 45 vote-ups within 5 days of being posted. The post defending killer players has achieved more upvotes in a far smaller amount of time than the post defending survivor players from the same type of accusations. I would hope some users of this forum could hopefully look at this fact and reflect on why people defending killer players would get greater and faster defense on the forums than survivor players facing the same allegations.
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Are you sure that's not just the difference of how "reasonable" those opinions are? it really proves nothing
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the most extreme but still accurate interpretation of what you've said just now is "yeah, saying all survivor players are categorically bad is reasonable, but saying all killer players are categorically bad is a bridge too far" do you hear yourself my brother
the criticism in this thread was "but you could say that about both sides" whereas the criticism in the other thread directly addressed claims by the original poster. it's pretty clear IMO that it's an explicit bias on this forum towards killer players.
Post edited by MagicDragon on4 -
Well, there is a chance that's the case, so still nothing you've said prove how "biased" this place is, literally no one can know that
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I appreciate this kind of "experiment". I do think there's a bit of bias when it comes to certain players vs others. This is gonna be a hot take, but I think both "sides" are flawed for different reasons and both "sides" deny up and down that they are and accuse the other of it.
!! I will preface this by saying this is just my personal experience from both "sides", and every individual is different, I'm not accusing all of one side or the other of being guilty of these things, it's just in the small puddle of this game i've splashed around in, this is my experience.
For example, when it comes to toxicity, I believe surviors are more toxic. If you are a character they don't like, don't get the unhook fast enough, accidently miss a skill check etc. they will throw you under the bus much faster then step in front of it. Survivors are more petty/selfish and play as if they're not in a team role. Many don't take accountability and blame every other thing than themselves, as admitting they made a bad play or mistake is rare from what I've seen. They need less reasons to turn on you or go out of their way to make sure you fail. Both sides can make toxicity personal, but as a soloq main, killers "toxic" is for pressure/securing kills and survivor "toxic" is a personal vendetta on a long list of possible reasons.
And in my opinion, while killers aren't as toxic, they're more entitled. There's not an equal amount of push and pull there. To this day many killers deny the stats about the killrate, either implying it's not actually more than survivors success rate or that it's even under the survivors success rate, how SWF survival rate sits at 43% in normal play and 48% at top mmr which is still less than half but still often described as too strong and unfair etc. Receive various nerfs they asked for to perks on survivor side but when nerfs hit the killer side to balance it out, they feel it is unjust or unwarrented. I think even your point in this post about there being a bit of a bias between which sides complain, shows that even if the numbers are there, it doesn't prove anything in some opinions.
I think the bias possibly stems from how bad killers had it for a long time, perhaps many may feel they deserve a compensation, no matter how unfair it is because it was unfair for them for a long time. So killer struggles are more understood because they've been victims for longer, sort've a, well you had your time and now it's mine. Which I can't blame them for feeling that way. I do think killer should be in the power role, I do think they should be stronger, and I'm okay with a higher winrate for killers as it contributes to the horror element of the game and I'm fine with where "balance" is heading. I'm not so fine with denying that the role is more powerful and is more successful and insisting the other "side" is "easy baby mode" even when the actual statistics prove otherwise. The denial is what irks me.
Both "sides" deserve understanding as many complaints from both "sides" are valid. But in any case, thank you for the experiment. I wish you and everyone else good games. Please nobody take offense to this, I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings or invalidate them, I'm simply stating what I have experienced, it isn't more or less important than yours or anyone else's.
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Yeah no
The original post had more sense in it, because survivors 3-genning themself, refusing to use anti-tunnel perks and not helping teammates that are being tunnelled cripples them way more than what is listed here.
Kicking gens excessively doesn't matter too much as long as you end your chases fast.
Playing like a bot chasing the first survivor you see doesn't matter too much as long as you end your chases fast.
And you didn't put too much effort in making your genrush argument believable, because anything you wrote - that's not how you fight genrush, so it makes no sense. You fight genrush by stacking a hefty amount of slowdown perk, slugging and tunneling.
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I could agree with you if the initial dissenter to my thread had highlighted any of those points. Again, all they said is "you could say the same thing about survivors" without actually addressing those points, and that was what got more agreement from users of the forum.
If it were such a well-argued statement that had gained traction, sure, but that didn't happen.
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