Vecna's Mage Hand needs a bit of a nerf
I have been playing quite a bit of Vecna now and in general I think he is a fantasticly designed killer. I like all of his abilities and in many cases he is very fair as well.
However, Mage Hand is the one ability of Vecna that is a bit overtuned at the moment. The main problem with Mage Hand is that by simply waiting until the survivor drops the pallet, you can then activate Mage Hand immediately afterwards, and get a free hit in many situations.
Now, if the survivor has quite a bit of distance to Vecna, and reaches the pallet, things are less simple in that case. In those cases, survivors can engage in a mindgame whether Vecna will use his Mage Hand or not. However, these situations are quite infrequent, because the distance needed is quite a bit, often in a chase Vecna will be close enough to the survivor to be able to guarantee a free hit with Mage Hand.
Here is the big problem: In the ptb, Vecna was forced to predict whether the survivor would drop the pallet or not, in order to spend some of the slowdown during the pallet drop animation of the survivor. However, with the slowdown being lessened too much, Vecna doesn't have to predict whether the survivor will drop the pallet or not, he can simply react to the survivor dropping the pallet, and then use Mage Hand, still granting him a hit, because the slowdown he has to endure is so small. Or the survivor doesn't drop the pallet, and Vecna simply doesn't use Mage Hand. It's not a 50/50 anymore. So survivors have no counterplay in those situations, and these situations happen too frequently.
This video of tru3 illustrates what I am talking about. Two examples are at 3:16 and 5:25.
The ideal solution would be to have Vecna be forced to predict whether the survivor will drop the pallet or not. This is achieved by increasing the slowdown enough so that Vecna wants to spend some of that slowdown during the pallet drop animation.
So with that said, Vecna needs these 3 changes:
- Decrease the movement speed during the Mage Hand post-casting cooldown from 3.68 m/s to 3.2 m/s
- Decrease the haste effect of the Boots of Speed Addon from 5% to 3%
- Decrease the haste effect of the interloper items from 7% to 5%
This way, survivors will actually be able to mindgame Mage Hand at pallets more frequently, and Vecna will have to mindgame at pallets as well, which would be ideal for a power. Of course, nerfing it back to how it was on ptb would be too much, so I think 3.2 m/s would be a good middle ground.
If Vecna received these changes, I think he would be an absolutely perfect killer, one of the best BHVR has ever created.
Comments
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Survivors the second Pallettes stop being crutches that grind a chase to a halt, writing essays on why an ability that has counterplay available needs to be nerfed for even more counterplay.
The only way Vecna gets a guaranteed hit at a pallette is if you treat a pallette as a crutch to stop a chase after he has basically already caught up to you.
If he reacts to you dropping the pallette by lifting it, either start running the loop and drop it on the next, or re-drop it instantly, you may risk a hit, but you also get a stun. If he is running his Unique Perks that stun is 25% longer.
As much as he can react to you dropping a pallette you can react to his Mage Hand. Which reinforces that Survivor is the role more suited to purely reactionary gameplay.5 -
It's already getting a bit of a nerf:
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I swear they don't want killers play on something except Nurse, Billy and Blight
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Cool I love how this Killer who had 3 pretty bad and 1 mediocre power will now have 4 pretty bad powers.
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I am a killer main just fyi, who now has started to main Vecna. I just want killers to be fun and fair for both sides, which is why I think Mage Hand needs a slight nerf.
I also explained why I think that Mage Hand doesn't have enough counterplay in my post. I am also not sure how survivors can react to Vecna's Mage Hand.
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I am impressed with how quickly BHVR is responding to the Mage Hand complaints, hats off to them. I am not sure if this is the right way to nerf it though, I really think reducing the movement speed during the cooldown a bit would have been the better solution, but it's at least something. So I am happy.
Also, thank you for letting me know.
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Dude it's a very small nerf, simply to make Mage Hand a bit fairer for survivors, Vecna is still going to be A tier easily.
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I fail to see how his powers are all bad. Mage Hand will still be good, Flight of the Damned is good, Fly is good, and even Dispell Sphere is a good ability. It's interesting how you seem to believe survivors need to learn how to play against Vecna and adapt, meanwhile you seem to be reluctant to learning how to play as Vecna at all.
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"Flight of the Damned is good"
It can literally be crouched under and announces itself loudly
"Fly is good"
It has a Recovery Time of 2.5 seconds during which you cannot attack and are slowed down to 2 m/s causing it to usually be a time loss in any chase and reveals you earlier to survs outside of a chase
"Dispelling Sphere is a good ability"
Magic Items literally turn the slow moving Sphere visible.
And when it comes to Magehand:
If lifting a pallette: drop it again
If holding a pallette: keep running the loop
By increasing the Time Mage Hand needs to lift and removing the only way to reduce that time, survivors can just safely drop Pallette and run
The only way you'd think there is no counterplay, is if you play against Vecna and still believe it is a really good idea to drop a pallette when he is literally just a few steps behind you.
Mage Hand literally gives you ressources back that you usually have very little ways to regain.13 -
That's garbage, it was the only tool Vecna had to be a decent killer. EVERYONE said how bad he was during the PTB with the way Mage Hand was, why would you revert it?! Just leave it be! Give the community time to learn how to counter it, why can't we have a strong killer for once?
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It's not being reverted, just the pick up time is being reverted. Vecna still is slowed down much, much less compared to the ptb, so Mage Hand will still be a strong ability.
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Flight of the Damned is very good when timed right, because it can stop survivors from dropping a pallet or vaulting. You also gain a bit of distance on survivors that crouch to dodge Flight of the Damned.
Fly is a fantastic map treversal tool, or an anti-w tool. It lets you catch up to survivors very effectively, and the slowdown at the end isn't that detremental. It's definitely not a time loss that's for sure.
Dispell Sphere is a good information tool, and it can disable items as well.
Also, survivors can't drop the pallet immediately after its lifted. Vecna can go through the pallet and get a hit against the survivor.
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Flight of the Damned is very good when timed right, because it can stop survivors from dropping a pallet
Doesn't really work, because you can't attack immediately, so if they just crouch, they can drop the pallet after it.
Tell me, how was I supposed to play this differently with Flight of the damned?You also gain a bit of distance on survivors that crouch to dodge Flight of the Damned.
Yeah, that's the only way except survivor playing bad. Thing is if you get the hit from this, you would hit that survivor anyway in most situations. You still get slowed.
Fly is a fantastic map treversal tool,
I really wouldn't call it fantastic, unless survivor is in open you will not usually get a hit, but it is decent enough. I don't really think this one need to change.
Dispell Sphere
Issue is it can give you false information, if survivors have item to see it.
Also, survivors can't drop the pallet immediately after its lifted
it's 50/50 and even if you guess right, you don't always get hit, if it is short loop. It is going to be weak after their nerf it (twice). If survivor has haste item, you are screwed.
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They also have an audacity to demand buffs to their perks and continue to demand more nerfs.
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At undropped pallets Flight of the Damned is only occasionally good. It's much better against vaults and dropped pallets. In that situation there was nothing else you could have done.
But it definitely can gain you a bit of distance thanks to the slowdown being much less now.
Mage Hand at the moment is quite often not a 50/50. Because you can just wait until the survivor dropped the pallet and then use Mage Hand. Increasing the time it takes to lift a pallet should solve this issue. But I would have preferred if they decreased Mage Hand's movement speed a bit instead.
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Mage Hand at the moment is quite often not a 50/50. Because you can just wait until the survivor dropped the pallet and then use Mage Hand. Increasing the time it takes to lift a pallet should solve this issue. But I would have preferred if they decreased Mage Hand's movement speed a bit instead.It is not really 50/50 now, because of a bug. When you will be forced to respect a pallet, that is going to be 50/50.
Lifting pallet is useless unless you cast it at the moment survivor is dropping the pallet, because you lose too much distance otherwise for it to be a hit.
So you are free to wait, but if survivor keeps running, you don't have time to react and if you guess wrong and don't respect, you can't use mage hand to get a hit anymore (after a nerf).
As 1.5 seconds and when it stops whenever you get stunned it is going to be way weaker. Blocking pallets work only on god pallets, because on normal loops survivor can just loop again, which is even easier if they have haste boots.
I have tried around 30 games, where I tried to go for "after nerf version" → not using lifting addon and not using enduring. Yeah, I have already stopped. Whenever I played against somewhat decent survivors, it could get so frustrating.
I am definetly not interested in Vecna if nerf is the only thing he gets in future.
If they want to make Mage hand weaker, then they better buff Flight of the Damned. Either don't let survivors crouch, or let Vecna attack way faster, so it can be used on standing pallets and probably reduce spread (if you don't remove crouch).
The most annoying thing about it is you are not able to hit survivors working on gens. That just sucks on so many levels…5 -
I disagree. I have been able to react to pallet drops with Vecna plenty of times and still get a hit against the survivor, and that's without the addon. The pallet lift animation is slightly too quick. With the nerf, you will be more forced to use Mage Hand while the survivor is dropping the pallet, which is a good thing.
I'm also not quite sure where the 1.5 seconds are coming from?
I really doubt Vecna will receive many other impactful nerfs in the future. Mage Hand was complained about a lot, the other 3 abilities not.
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I'm also not quite sure where the 1.5 seconds are coming from?
typo, was supposed to be 0.5 sec.
the other 3 abilities not.
Killers complain on those, because except Fly they are just weak.
If only change he gets is quite a huge nerf for Mage hand, I am just not interested in him at all. He is going to join Singularity in my opinion.
They should definetly buff Flight of the Damned. I don't think it should be possible to dodge it by crouch, mainly because it also make it impossible hit survivors on gen, which I find just so annoying…
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Sorry but I can't agree with you about Flight of the Damned and Dispell Sphere. Especially the former is very effective when used correctly. That's why I also think Flight of the Damned doesn't need to be buffed. If they do ever make that ability not crouchable, then I hope they also reduce the hitbox size of the skeletons a bit to make sure survivors can still dodge in between, even at close range.
The nerf Mage Hand will be receiving is not huge at all though. It's just a small nerf that will allow for a little more counterplay on the survivors side and that's it. How is that a huge nerf?
Pretty sure he won't have the same fate as Singularity. Surely most people who enjoy him now will still enjoy him after the small nerf to Mage Hand, I know I will still enjoy him like crazy.
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I agree with @VomitMommy Flight of the Damned is pathetic due to the crouching counter.
Some players say you should use it as a zoning tool to make distance when the survivor crouches but this feels so bad and unsatisfying. It doesn't require any skill like by aiming to the point where the survivor will run or where they dodge. The spawn and fly time is also slow and gives survivors enough time to react, especially since the spell has a sound warning. All this makes the magic item useless as there is no reason to see the skeletons to avoid their hitboxes when you just can crouch counter them. The spell has a huge cooldown of 38 seconds and has this simple counter. A guaranteed hit is only when a survivor is in a animation but this is also rather pathetic. I also don't like it from the survivor pov.
Either they remove the crouching aspect or reduce the cooldown by a lot.
Dispelling Sphere is okay. The issue with this spell is disabling magic items is not really necessary because they are not what they supposed to be. The magic item for the Flight of the Damned is rather useless as you can counter them easily, magic item for Fly and Dispelling Sphere is semi okay. Only the magic item for Mage Hand is good. Vecna's Eye and Hand cannot be blocked which is also sad. The Sphere is mostly good for Informationen or when paired with the iri Sword addon. I don't to suggest to buff the magic item but by removing the crouch counter for FotD the magic item would become much better and as a result also the Dispelling Sphere.
Fly is fine but could get a slightly buff.
Mage Hand: nerfing the range seems random. Nerfing the lift up time okay but then they should also slightly nerf the magic item. It will still be a good spell but after the nerf it will be a huge risk high reward spell.
I enjoy Vecna a lot and think he is a good killer but I see it like VomitMommy and think he will be rarely used like Singularity. Players don't like killers that have a high risk high reward, unsatisfying feeling orare hard to master with still some flaws and currently Vecna is all of it in some ways.
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Why don't we also nerf survivor interaction and repair speeds by 5%? I mean it's a very small nerf and will make game feel more fair for killers. I'm sure survivors will still be fine. SWFs probably also won't feel the change. Right?
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3:16 is unsafe loop. any killer will get m1 hit. the survivor should pre-drop pallet. there is no reason for survivor to be waiting this long.
5:29 is also poor distancing. You need to be around 5:27 in term of distancing for mage hand to not work. if you don't pre-drop pallet from this distance, you get hit.
this killer has no 50/50's when the pallet is not dropped, the killer is being able to react to pallet drops is not mindgame. Your either far enough away to make next loop or you not far enough away to make next loop. it is that cut dry.
3:18 is where he has to pre-drop pallet to be safe vs mage hand. it is around 2 killer lunges. when the pallet is dropped. Mindgames with this killer begin when pallet is dropped where killer has to predict when survivor will slide when both survivor go around loop. People are playing vs him completely wrong.
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So this nerf makes you want to play Nurse and Blight now? Chill bro
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So what relationship does Mage Hand and Generators have again? None.
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The relationship here is Mage Hand nerf comes so killer does feel more fair against survivors. The 5% nerf would make survivors feel more fair for all killers.
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The most annoying thing about it is you are not able to hit survivors working on gens. That just sucks on so many levels…
seriously…imagine using a WHOLE ability to do your objective aka get hit but you’re denied, but the survivor can safely do their objective no problem. It doesn’t seem fair to me personally2 -
Issue is as long survivors can just crouch to dodge, this can't be fixed.
I really don't think it would be too strong if survivors can only dodge between them...
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Disagree. I would argue Flight of the Damned takes more skill because survivors can crouch under the ability. Because in order to get value from it you have to use it cleverly, timing the ability right. Unlike if you couldn't crouch under the ability, which would just grant you hits often enough simply for aiming it in the general direction of survivors. I think it's good the way it is. If they did remove the crouch counterplay, they would have to reduce the hitbox size of the skeletons a bit as well, to make sure it's still dodgeable even up close.
I really don't see Vecna becoming the next Singu. Vecna does arguably have a fairly high skill floor and ceiling though, but not as high as Singu.
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What an awful comparison.
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Else people would call it P2W.
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Yes predropping the pallet earlier would have been good at 3:16. The point of the video here is to show that there are too many situations where the survivor can't do anything against Mage Hand. If Vecna is already close enough to the survivor, he can just react to the survivor dropping the pallet and then use Mage Hand. That's the point. The size of the loop here plays no role in that case.
This is why it's good that Mage Hand is getting a small nerf.
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I would argue Flight of the Damned takes more skill because survivors can crouch under the ability.
I would argue the result is more based on survivor's lack of skill rather than killer's skill, which I don't consider good design either.
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How is it more based on the survivors lack of skill?
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Anyone will be playing Vecna two weeks from now?
Like, its fun to have a lot of powers you can use but this killer has so many counters that sometimes feels like its better to just use the 4.6m/s speed to get a hit instead of using your spells and risk lose distance.
At least for me, i rather play the other killers that at least do ONE thing good than one that do 4 things bad/mediocrely.
The Skulls? Play Artist or Pyramid (crouching won't save from a hit)
The Fly? Billy, Blight or even Wesker (with the bonus that survivor won't be seeing your aura while you are running)
The Sphere? Play Doctor or Singularity
The Hand? Doctor does this and don't give survivor a speed boost while you use your power, although this is the best spell of his kit (with a 38s cooldown).
Maybe i'm a little salty with this killer but he feels like a M1 killer with more steps than the other antiloop killers.
Blight too hard hahaha
Will try to learn Billy and Nurse this anniversary.
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Why? Because it involves survivors? Apparently a minor nerf to killer's only reliable chase tool is fine, yet a minor nerf to survivor in any way is the end of the world.
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Because it works best when survivors don't pay attention, have bad positioning, or just don't know how Vecna works.
If survivor knows what they are doing, Vecna's 1v1 is quite weak.
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I would agree 💯
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Because these are completely different things we are talking about. On the one side you have an ability of a killer with not much counterplay, on the other side you have the main objective of survivors.
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That's not true. Using FoTD to deny vaults or pallets has nothing to do with the survivors positioning. Or the fact that they don't pay attention. What on earth?
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If they don't pay attention, they won't crouch to dodge. Not difficult to understand.
I think we have already established that Fotd is bad on standing pallets, simply because survivor is able to drop pallet faster than you can attack.
It works on windows with only limited use, it's not really good for it either. You need be near enough for survivor to not be able to just vault after it, or continue running around it you also need to use a lot in advance so survivor can't just vault and crouch after it. It's not like you can use it on reaction against vaults, it is too slow for it.
One possible buff I can see is simply let Vecna attack right after casting it, then it actually does what you described, but not really right now.
Right now, Vecna has actually low skill ceiling. You need to only know things (situations), that's basically on level of Clown.
You have few situations where you power actually works, any other situation it's pointless to try, just lost distance and bloodlust. You can't get value out of it with your skill. Probably only exception is Fly, that's why I wouldn't change this one.
Only other thing that can increase your effectiveness, are bad survivors...
It's pointless to go for long range shots, you can't surprise survivors on gens.
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Well sure, but that doesn't detract from the situations where survivors know what they are doing but still get hit because you used FoTD properly.
FoTD is not that good at standing pallets, true, but it does depend on where the survivor is positioned at a pallet loop. Also, if you predict that a survivor will drop the pallet they are running at, you can drop FoTD on top of their heads while they are in the pallet animation to get a hit.
I have gotten plenty of M1 hits against survivors because they were forced to crouch in front of the window and then medium vaulted. Not sure what you are doing wrong to not be able to replicate that.
I would argue his skill ceiling isn't that low. There are definitely timings to get right with him. But it's also not as high as say Singularity, that's for sure.
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Also, if you predict that a survivor will drop the pallet they are running at, you can drop FoTD on top of their heads while they are in the pallet animation to get a hit.
So the survivor is not playing based on current situation / not looking behind them. This is the effect of bad survivor. Otherwise I can see you casting it...
I would argue his skill ceiling isn't that low. There are definitely timings to get right with him.
What is supposed to be difficult? You don't need any fast movement, or precise.
You don't need completely different playstyle compare to normal M1 killer.
Vecna is just M1 killer most of the times. Only thing you need to know are situations when to use your power and don't even try in any other situation. That's like Clown...
And even when it works the effect is not that good with really high cooldown.
I am happy for you, that you enjoy him so far. But I am not interested in killer, where I know for 100% I am going to get very frustrated gameplay from time to time.
His chase is highly limited, his skill ceiling is medium at best, his 1v4 is also bad.
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You have survivor perks, you can get items and you know exactly what killer's power is. This is also the only ability that allows killer actually land hits in the loop. Yet this is not enough.
Apparently you will be content when Vecna becomes an M1 killer who can't get anyone downed for 5 gens because everything he can do has a 100% reliable counter. Instead of trying to learn how to play against this killer and adapt you wish to see the only tool of the killer nerfed. It's the reason why buying any new content is stupid - a bunch of people will cry or complain that something is too strong and won't stop doing so until developers cater to their will. There goes their money, good job.
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Quickly. Not that people said that already during PTB. Sigh.
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there are no situations where survivor cannot do anything. the situations where the survivor gets hit immediately after mage hand activation are survivor mistakes in playing poorly vs mage hand.
I am not sure how much nerf will do but i do not think the nerf needed to happen. this is jump-start nerf before survivor has adapted to the ability.
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Nerf basically removes the only situation when there is nothing survivor can do →killer with enduring just walks through pallet.
For some reason they want to nerf the duration too, so lifting pallet is just pointless on most loops, unless survivor is in dropping animation.
Thing is, it would work on a god pallet, but do you really want to return god pallet to survivors?
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What are you talking about? On the ptb Mage Hand was rather weak, no one was concerned it would be too strong.
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What are you talking about? I started maining Vecna, and I main killer in general. I just want him to be fair for survivor as well. Most people will still be able to enjoy Vecna after the small nerf he is getting. Just not people like you for whatever reasons.
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So the survivor is not playing based on current situation / not looking behind them. This is the effect of bad survivor. Otherwise I can see you casting it...
Not true. Charge time for Flight of the Damned is 0.2 seconds, and spawn time is 0.5 seconds. Survivors have to predict that Vecna will be using FoTD, because otherwise they will be stuck in animation and will get hit. They can't react to it. You just have to time FoTD perfectly.
I would argue timing his FoTD can have quite the skill ceiling. His macro play with his 4 abilities play into effect here as well, just like being able to switch between spells as fast as posible to always have the right spell up. I know I lost out on a few hits because I didn't switch quick enough to Mage Hand or FoTD when I needed to. But again, his skill ceiling isn't the highest among killers.
It's also fine if you are not interested in this killer, no killer can be for everyone. But that doesn't mean he should be unfair to verse.
For some reason they want to nerf the duration too, so lifting pallet is just pointless on most loops, unless survivor is in dropping animation.
That's the point. You should have to predict when the survivor will drop the pallet and then use Mage Hand, because otherwise, if you can just react to the survivor dropping the pallet, there is no counterplay for survivors.
Watch this video at 6:35. Demi clearly reacts to the Kate dropping the pallet, so what exactly was the Kate supposed to do in this situation? Because if she didn't drop the pallet, Vecna would just catch up to her at the loop, and then he could block the pallet, getting a hit against her like that.
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Watch this video at 6:35. Demi clearly reacts to the Kate dropping the pallet, so what exactly was the Kate supposed to do in this situation? Because if she didn't drop the pallet, Vecna would just catch up to her at the loop, and then he could block the pallet, getting a hit against her like that.
Greed the pallet and try to stun the killer by any means possible (in future update)
That's not any different to Nemesis, or Huntress. Every killer in correct situation has moment when survivor just get hit/downed.
Survivors can see Vecna is ready to cast mage hand. What is supposed to be unfair about this? It's no different to other killers.
Btw Pyramid head is using his power even if you stun him. (Unless they changed it without me noticing)
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