The Sabotage buffs were a mistake that don't fix the issue they were meant to.

VantablackPharaoh91

The title.

Buffing sabotage for toolboxes was not a smart idea on BHVR's part. The unfortunate truth is that nothing is going to make Survivors use toolboxes for this rather than dump them in gens, which results in the feeling that "gens fly" especially in light of some of the other changes Chapter 8.0.0 did regarding generator regression. While there have been a lot of good changes to help Killers before this, so it doesn't sting as much, the simple fact is that buffing sabotage in the same patch as a bunch of generator perk changes both sides looks incredibly tone-deaf on BHVR's part, as if they don't care Killers might struggle as a Lower tier Killer now. Add to this that we still have Killers well below the 60% killrate that NEED some buffs or changes to help them achieve greatness, and the problem looks even more glaring.

Sabotaging was already fine, a valid option, and risky. Such a save is intended to be risky, as it's meant to increase the fun and tension in a match. But as it currently is, sabo has no risk. It can be done in a button press during a wipe animation with the proper toolbox and addons - something M1s may struggle with. And it's even worse if someone runs Built to Last, now you have a forever Alex's Toolbox that can make the game a misery for many Killers on the wrong map due to bad hook RNG. The other issue is that these tactics unfairly punish weaker players, newer Killers, and Killers who may not wish to have to slug for a win. But if there aren't enough hooks due to enough people running a dedicated sabo build with these toolboxes, the Killer is now forced to slug people which turns into a unfun game of "Survivor Whackamole" that's not entertaining to be part of, OR do to others.

On Killer side, as an M1 Killer, I feel my build options are now very limited if I see toolboxes in the lobby. Will they genrush me? Sabo me? Do I bring gen hold and hope, or do I risk anti-sabo and hope they don't just dump charges on gens? What about perks I might need as Ghostface, Myers, Trapper, Wraith, Pig to do well and help their kits' weaknesses? I have to consider four more things I didn't need to before, because I rarely saw it. I can run Franklin's or Starstruck sure, or Agi. I could run some more gen control. I could slug and tunnel anyone with a toolbox. Those are my options and none of them allow me the freedom of perk experimentation, messing around, or just trying to have fun in case I get a SWF looking to turbo-charge their gains at my expense. As a Ghostface Main, you can imagine how annoying this is, Devs, it does not feel good to not be able to do anything but slug when I wish to do stealth - and the experience is not much better on say, Pinhead even though he's stronger. Same results, different Killer.

On Survivor side I fear bringing toolboxes and doing sabo challenges. I never want to do them. I don't like feeling like a bully - and taking away objectives from the other side makes me feel like a bully, so I don't run sabo ever. But unfortunately for me that doesn't matter, I know a toolbox is now an invitation for the Killer to tunnel me out or slug me, because all they see is my toolbox, they dunno what I will use it for. What if I try to sabo? better not risk this, I should just dump the charges on a gen, so I do. The Killer immediately starts the game more stressed, then sees gens go off faster and faster even more, and thus I suffer because they feel stressed. Do I just bring a bunch of antitunnel or stealth perks and hope? I guess I could run Saboteur or Unbreakable or Boon: Exponential against the slugging... Those are my options and none of them allow me the freedom of perk experimentation, messing around, or just trying to have fun with a build I like in case I get a Killer frustrated with the prior round who takes it out on me. As someone who plays loads of Survivor particularly in SWF, this is a negative effect on my gaming experience - I can only imagine how dreadful it is in SoloQ, it really makes me not want to bring items at all.

This change needs a change, BHVR. Toolboxes now, particularly Commodious and Alex's toolbox, are totally overbuffed and need looking at. They're the single most powerful Survivor item in the game right now since they deny hooks AND push gens faster, which frustrate Killers and lead them to do nastier tactics with Survivor. I am very casual and I even I can feel the frustration over these changes, people do not like them, nobody asked for this. So how do we fix this? I can think of few things:

• Revert or partial revert these changes. If not that, then try one of the below options…
• Take another balance pass at toolboxes in general. Reduce charges to 20 max, and have addons give more. For all toolboxes. Then, look at addons to see which are overtuned and give too much value. Nothing in the game should regress gens more than 25% of the total value or progress them more that about 25% faster. STOP MESSING WITH GENERATOR SPEEDS.
• Change toolboxes to only do one or the other again - if it sabos at 100% efficiency, it needs to heavily nerf generator progression. If it does progression, sabo should be nerfed on it. Ideally, have it do one or the other, not both - so Alex's on;y does sabo, Commodious only does generator progression, etc.
• Buff some Killer perks to hard counter Sabotage plays so KIllers have other counterplay besides slugging. A great one to do this to would be Scourge Hook: Hangman's Trick, you could have it cause Survivors to take a healthstate or deep wound if they sabo certain hooks, or you could have it protect hooks after one has been saboed already. We have perks that protect totems, perks that protect gens, perks that hold pallets or blocks vaults, and perks that block doors. Why not perks that block off attempted sabotaging of hooks? It provides more counterplay and protection this way.
• Give Survivors an actual thing to do that is MANDATORY. Sabotaging isn't mandatory, it's optional as all the alternate things Survivors can do are. This can naturally mean less generator hold is needed and more relaxed Killers, which could do wonders to tone down nastier play that feels bad for Survivor side. Perhaps it's time to reconsider the generator "parts/gas can" mechanic?
• Possibly change hooking entirely. I think the 2v8 coming cage option could work. The current Masquerade Mechanic of a remote hook is also a good one, and could be placed into a perk that has an activation condition. Maybe it's time to reconsider hookstages/hooking or allow for hooking alternatives?

I know I will probably get called a noob for these but it seems to me, some minor changes could remove a lot of frustration and be good for the game overall. Does anyone else have thoughts on what could be done to make these mechanics less frustrating?

ChaosWam

Sabo really should have been it's own item instead of on toolboxes, that would have been better in hindsight.

Your alternatives are all okay as well, I'd tune the numbers here and there, but I very much agree at looking at hooks and hook states in some way.