Am i the only one who thinks gideon meat plan have way too many unavoidable pallets?
No other map comes even remotely close.
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Some killers are really scary on the game
Some sucks ass cos they cant avoid pallets
Map is kinda unique in its genre, let it exist
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What do you mean "unavoidable pallets"? Pallets are not supposed to be avoided.
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Im assuming he means they cant be mindgamed, and yeah that Id have to agree with.
Should still have a large number of pallets compared to the average map though since it has a lack of windows and its more thematic.
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But you should be at least able to mindgame it if the survivor isn't attentive enough. That's nearly impossible on half the palettes xD
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But how many vaults does it have?
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This has been a rather popular opinion for years
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The game is a weird design where it's all pallets and few loops and vaults at which point you're either a killer that cares about pallets (Freddy, Pig, Ceno) or you're not (Legion, Xeno, Nemesis) and how you feel about the map is based on that.
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That you cannot circumvent, midngame, or take a detour without renouncing to chase.
Pallets that you must break, no counterplay possible.
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I guess if you are nurse, nemesis tier2+, billy, bubba or so on, its arguably fine.
But if you are a "normal" M1 killer is an absolutely miserable experience.
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Breaking them is the counterplay. Or you want every pallet be by a piece of rock you can just lunge around? How are survivors supposed to survive then?
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No, it is not.
I want killers and survivors to interact with each other based on skill, play and counterplay.
Most maps have plenty of pallets that, if used correctly by the survivor, can be a huge advantage for the survivor and, if used correctly by the killer, allow them to catch the survivor, depending on play and counterplay.
One or two pallets in the middle of a narrow corridor that you 100% cannot avoid neither the stun or having to waste time breaking it may serve as a survivor buffer, im not against that.
But the meat plant is ridiculous. As a M1 killer a survivor can loop you for A LOT of time just by pressing W and dropping pallet after pallet after pallet, that you cannot counterplay at all, and no, breaking after pallet is not counterplay at all.
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I want killers and survivors to interact with each other based on skill, play and counterplay
Guesswork and coinflips are neither skill nor counterplay.
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This has been a complaint about this map for years. The real issue is that too many of the pallets that are there are too strong or god pallets, while others are just filler for no reason.
They need to rebalance some of these pallet based loops, there is no mindgaming around a junk pallet and it makes chase boring and unfun. Nobody enjoys having to bash or drop twenty pallets. It makes the game feel like a non-challenge against some Killers and impossible AS those Killers.
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It has the nickname "pallet factory" for a reason
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It's the god pallets that the poster is referring to and they're right, while as a survivor it's a ton of fun for me personally, I also only play the weaker killers on the roster so it's easier to determine how strong a map truly is and that one is probably the most survivor sided map in the game due to the 8 god pallets and the extra pallets that are there being extremely safe minus like one because it depends if the wall is open but when it is it's another must break to continue situation.
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It's better to have unavoidable pallets than the hot garbage that's reworked haddonfield and whatever the heck that one pallet is on the new map.
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So the counterplay is breaking the 20 safe pallets by which time any team with a collective iq over 40 should have 4 or 5 gens done?
I get its fun to practically have loops were you cannot under any circumstance get hit (aside from nurse) but this map has horrible gameplay.
Only way this map is not BS is if you play an m2 killer, it baffles me people who get 4k by plagues, legions or pigs in that map, like they should be professional footballers with those throwing skills, its like a blight losing on midwhich, you require effort to lose that match.
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Back and forth or trying to predict your opponent is both skill and counterplay.
You know whats neither?
Holding W while ocassionally pressing the spacebar till the exit gates are open.
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4-5 what were you trying to prove
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Geussing correctly the 50/50 and reacting fast enough by throwing the unsafe pallet to stun the killer has more skill than mindlessly running a safe loop 3 times then throwing the pallets
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im fine with it having more pallets but all the pallets are safe and have no mindgame to it with a high amount of god pallets some of these gotta be turned into unsafe pallets
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This. Its not just the number, which is already very high, is that plenty of them are ridiculously safe.
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The map is an abomination and should have been changed years ago… Hardly any of the pallets is mindgameable for half the killer roster if the survivor is sentient and you basically have to spend half the game kicking pallets before you can even start to play the game, sure it has barely any windows but that makes it even worse design, because they obviously knew you would have to kick pallets for 5 min straight … Just because some killers can work around it does not mean it is not bad design, because even on those you are basically not looping or anything, you just reach a safe pallet and drop it, some killers can hit you over it, but there are no mindgames, no unique pathing, just nothing.
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This reminds me of the old "Spirit has a ton of counterplay, you just have to guess better!"
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A cat could unplug your controller and Survivors would die because of it.
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I flipped a coin and guessed right! I can live another 5 seconds! And now I flipped another coin and this time I didin't guess right, so I lose a health state. Wow, much skill, such counterplay!
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So the correct and fun way to play is: predrop pallet→ rotate to safe corner of the loop→ hold the checkspot→ wait until the killer breaks the pallet or continue looping, you are not gonna get hit anyways if you have eyes→ find another pallet (its gideon there are safe pallets everywhere dont worry)→ repeat until gens are done. If gens are not done and you wasted all pallets your team is made up of either AI( and even the bots repair gens) or they were throwing on purpose.
Idk how this is any interesting aside from just having the fun of getting the W.
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Looping correctly requires mechanical skill for timings and tight looping, as well as general map awareness, while coinflips only require luck: you either guessed right or you didn't, nothing else you can do.
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It's unique map and even it's has lot of pallets I rarely have problems there on killer and win most my game. I also lose most games on survivor there but still have fun.
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How is holding a checkspot at a safe loop more skillfull than actually playing a tile where your opponent can outplay you?. Like you know you are 100 % safe, the only requirement you have to not get hit is have functional eyes and br able to react to what your eyes see. While on mindgameable tiles you need to look out for the red stain, know when to bait a vault or a double back, when to actually vault or double back.
One is literally playing a flow chart where you are guaranteed success unless you make a MASSIVE blunder or you are playing against a nurse and the other one actually requires you to do something that is not directly obvious.
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Tons of pallets but easy to 3-gen.
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Bottom floor is strong for survivors but top floor is weak. There are tiles on the top floor that simply removing one pallet creates a deadzone. I had a game on there once where 5 gens spawned on the top floor and only 2 on the bottom and it was hell.
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Way more exciting then ring around the god pallet
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Top floor still has some decently strong loops imagine each section had those two pallet loops in the corner to prevent dead zones would be pallet chain hell
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It's because the game has almost no reusable survivor resources by design, which is why there are so many pallets.
There's no shack, or even shack equivalent on this map. The closest thing is the freezer room, which is specifically weaker than the shack, except maybe dead Dawg's weird shack.
Other than the freezer, none of these vaults are loopable. There's 2 at a T-L, which is a pretty weak tile and easily playable by killer. One is literally a dead end at an exit, and one is the drop down at the vat. I'll even count the one above the bathroom, which basically forces you into the basement if you take it.
So the game is designed to be a map with almost entirely consumable resources. Removing pallets would mean they have to add some loopable vaults. Pallets are one use, vaults can be used repeatedly.
This is also a map that is full of dead ends unless the killer decides to open walls, basically forcing pallet drops by design as well.
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Fully depends on the loop, there is this corner pallet in Lery which has check spots in the sense of vault when killer goes there and it is super easy to mess up, playing that right is actually quite hard...
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Nah capping hard there's plently of vaults survivors can use like the upstairs boiler vault thing is awesome reusable and a BL users dream
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The game has often been dubbed "Pallet City", so I guess you aren't the only one.
M1 killers really struggle on that map.
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I said not loopable. The boiler is one time then you literally have to leave it by design of falling into the lower floor.
ETA: You seem to have misunderstood what I wrote. Vaults are, by definition, reusable, which is why I listed every vault on the map as a reusable resource. They are not all loopable vaults, in fact most of them are only usable one way (at the exit, the boiler drop down, above the bathroom). The only loopable vaults would be the T-L, which is weak, or the freezer, which has terrible sight lines and your basically forces to leave it or just lose a 50-50.
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Looping an a place with god pallet after god pallet do not require any skill. Drop a pallet in the middle of a corridor and you are completely and totally safe until the killer breaks it, and by then, you are in another safe location.
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You do realise you don't have to finish every chase you start, right? Why do you let yourself be guided across the whole map from pallet to pallet?
With Nemo I don't really care about pallets soon enough - but with other killers I generally do some bouncing around, get injures, get pallets out of the way, push survs off gens regularly so the pallets go faster than the gens. Except for coordinated pre-leaving swf (who don't need to drop the safety-pallet close to the gen) it usually works pretty well. More makro gaming and less chase gaming but that's one of the oddities of that map.
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I mean with people consistently running windows of opportunity to prevent running in player induced dead zones you won't be that successful and even if you play a more hit and run playstyle that does not change that you still need to kick pallets to get hits beforehand, because the map is so loaded... Obviously you don't let the survivor loop you for 3 min straight, but this does not really do much, until you got rid of 10 pallets there is not really much you can do...
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Drop down a pallet and move on to the next one.
It's not a loop.0 -
Yeah I agree, how ever I do believe some of the safe pallets should remain, like the ones by basement as thats one of the strongest ones for killer once those pallets are gone. Can be especially devastating on specific killers like Bubba or Trapper
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Yes, thats why I am discussing gideons map layout, because unlike other maps gideon makes almost every checkspot easy to play.
Also that pallet you are talking about I would not classify as safe, because the killer can get a hit on it without breaking the pallet.
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If pallets go faster than gens on gideon the survivors are either doing a challenge, trying to throw the game or have no idea what they are doing. The map provides enough safe pallets for gens to be done against any m1 killer.
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Yes, they are.
Reading your opponent in any game takes skill. Recognizing patterns in their gameplay and knowing how to take advantage of that requires experience and creates a back and forth between you and the person youre versing.
Dropping a pallet that has no way around it (like the pallets at doorways on Gideon, or the upstairs pallet on Eyrie) completely gets rid of that back and forth. Having 2 or 3 of these far apart from each other is fine, but Gideon has way too many of these that can also be easily chained because there are also fairly safe pallets between them.
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There is a video made by excize, a comp player, that gives the checks pot for it, so it is safe when you do that... I can look for it if you want...
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Would appreciate it, and if he has evidence of reliable checkspots then yes I would agree its safe if the player its good.
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Alright that seems fair but the other god pallets gotta be turned into unsafes
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