Event Tunneling
Comments
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Not sure wht my reply didn't post, but here's the rudown of what I typed originally.
It's not even close to the same thing. Doing gens or "gen rushing" requires consumable parts, equipment, and addons. It usually also requires perks to be efficient. This is something the player has to weigh against other perks, equipment, or addons that might be more helpful to the overall game. It takes a lot of finite resources, many of which are extremely rare and rationed. Tunneling is available at all times to all killers without any resources being spent or perks being used. There's literally no risk. Nothing gets used up. Nothing has to be rationed or considered.It sounds like you're mad at coordinated swfs. A valid complaint, but not what we're talking about.
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You've been playing since 2016 but are somehow surprised at tunneling?
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I never said I was surprised, just frustrated by it. It's a shame, that's all. The game has the potential to be so fun and so exciting, but so many people (on both sides) just want to get through matches as quickly and dirtily as possible that it makes the game broken.
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Well, if you're putting as much work in as winning with survivor as you are with killer, I think the problem is you. The thought never crosses my mind as killer of making sure everyone has fun or gets lots of points. I play to win, I don't really care what strategy I have to use to do it, nor do I complain about my opponents using their strategy to win. This game does not operate on an honor system, and the sooner you realize that the better.
Usually MMR would put you where you need to be, so that you don't have to face tunneling killers every match. But this event evidently doesn't have MMR enabled. Although, MMR doesn't work the other way, I've found. I have never been able to get out of MMR hell as survivor, so although the killers don't get harder for me, the weakness of my team usually does. You can lose enough to tunneling killers to where it'll put you below their threshold. But you can't win enough amongst bad teams to escape their threshold. It's basically impossible.
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Tbagging is indecent. Slugging to get a 4th kill is not. Tbagging is always used for BM, whereas slugging serves to advance the killer's objective of getting more kills.
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No. You can do gens fast without toolboxes or special perks. Doing that specifically doesn't use up anything, any more than a normal match. It just depends on gen efficiency. Tunneling absolutely costs the killer something: time. DBD matches are a race against time, forcing the killer to be on the back foot from the start, and with enough strategy, luck, and survivor mistakes, the killer can turn the pressure back on the survivors. No tunneling or survivor mistakes, no reason the killer should be winning that match. As soon as the survivors notice someone is getting tunneled, the one being tunneled needs to be playing safe instead of getting fancy and saving pallets for later, or try to greed a window til entity blocker. Their teammates need to be rushing gens, or muddying their teammates' scratch mark/body blocking for them. Since survivors don't really need to heal, they can totally take that hit while they're healthy and then sit on gens the rest of the game while their healthy teammates body block. If you see a super high level match, this is what you see. As soon as a teammate is about to go down, body block, and then they make the next loop. As soon as you detach to the person that body blocks, the cycle repeats. Of course, not all survivor teams are this elite, but then again neither are the killers. And I'd say when the killer and survivors are the same caliber, the survivors typically win. When the killer is elite and is going against a mid team, they deserve to win, not to have a draw or a loss by default.
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Tunneling isn't necessarily an intentional act of toxicity or sweatiness. I play Killer in an auto-pilot efficiency mindset that will sometimes result in me tunneling someone if there's no better options. For example, if I hook someone, then I go to find someone else, but the Survivor gets unhooked while I'm still nearby, then yes, I am going back to hook. It's the Survivors' mistake to unhook when I'm still close and not occupied, of course you're going to get punished for it.
Then, if I arrive back at the hook, and they're healing, yes, I'm going to hit you. If the unhooker doesn't get my attention or runs away and the just hooked Survivor is closer, yes I'm going after them. Especially if they use their BT to bodyblock. These are all Survivor misplays that I am capitalizing on, it's not me intentionally choosing to tunnel for an easy win or to be toxic. If you're going to be a bad Survivor player, you are going to be punished for it. Stop being bad and expecting the Killer to not punish you for it.
I say all this as an avid Survivor player who knows when to unhook, when to get the Killer's attention off teammates, when to trade, etc. I won't deny there are examples of obvious hard tunneling, but they aren't as frequent as some players make it out to be. A lot of it boils down to Survivors just playing bad. The Killer gets a nice, loud, booming noise notification when a Survivor is unhooked. Why would I waste my time looking around for others when I'm being notified of the location of two Survivors? Don't unhook until the Killer is occupied somewhere else.
And if they proxy camp? Get on gens and trade at the last second. You also need to accept that not every match is going to be a 4 man out, just like Killers need to accept not every match is going to be a 4k. Sometimes one Survivor will have to be a sacrifice so the other 3 can do gens and escape. That's just how it goes.
Tunneling isn't a sin. Yes, people can use tactics to be toxic, but more often than not, it's a skill issue. Not only that, but this is just how the game is designed. Killers are supposed to kill. Being nice and taking turns hooking Survivors offers no gameplay advantage to the Killer. Having 8 hooks is no different from having 0 hooks, all 4 Survivors are still active and able to do gens, heal, chase, etc. Removing a Survivor is the only thing that drastically changes the dynamics of the match.
I find more often than not on inexperienced Killers that try to tunnel that it's detrimental to them and they often only end up with 1 kill because they didn't properly spread pressure. I spread pressure as much as I can while always going after whatever Survivor I can find fastest that's within my line of sight, and drop chase if they bring me close to a generator I know is being worked on. Whether this results in tunneling or not is irrelevant to me; I don't intentionally tunnel, but I also don't intentionally avoid tunneling either. I kill anyone I see, simple as that. Not to be toxic, but because I want to actually do chases and play the game, not waste time leaving Survivors alone so I can walk around doing nothing. That's boring.
Edit: That being said, I want to say that I think tunneling does end up boosting Killer players' MMR too high because often casual teams that are tunneled early on have no chance of making a comeback, so Killers get easy wins (whether intentionally or not) and get paired with higher skilled SWFs that are too much for them and they come onto the forums to complain that Survivors are OP when they're actually just boosted. I think if this problem were to be rectified, it would have to be on the devs to implement a forced anti-tunneling playstyle that prevents Killers from being able to tunnel simply as part of the game's design. It shouldn't be a choice. Players should not have to police themselves. It should just be a part of the game passively. I don't play this game to stop and waste time trying to make sure I'm not tunneling. If the devs implemented a way to force me not to tunnel in a way where I don't have to think about it, then I'd be fine with that.
Post edited by loreaccuratenemesis on1 -
Tbagging is 99% handicapping yourself, 1% indecent. The 1% is exit gate teabags. The 99% is midmatch, because they could have been running away getting distance, and instead decided to give the Killer an advantage with a 0.5s-1s 100% hindered. (Also I can push the Survs out or kick spare pallets, so I still have agency.) Fair to complain about exit gate t-bags (which I called out), not nearly the same mid-match.
Bleedout for the 4k (for more clarity: when the Killer doesn't know where the 4th is) is nothing but BM. The Killer is wasting 3-5 people's time (Bleedout victim, Killer, Stealth Surv, 1-2 SWF teammates/perk checking players waiting for the match to end to play again, with the first and last categories being without agency) just to go on an ego trip (in most cases). Sure Adepts/Tomes exist, but I don't think you are arguing that most bleedout for 4ks are Adept/Tome attempts.
Also to be clear, my stance was 'Bleedout bad', and you lessened that to Slugging in a self-report. So if you ever say Slugging again I know you actually mean Bleedouts, since they are synonymous in your mind. That's pretty messed up man.
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Neither side enjoys it when the other side plays efficiently to win. That's how DbD is unfortunately designed. The best most efficient way to win is usually not considered the most fun way to play. Ridiculous, eh? I don't even like it when it's my own side, as I don't enjoy tunneling, and I also don't enjoy sitting on gens doing fudge all else.
So, the problem is DbD's design. Telling players they should play with a self-imposed disadvantage doesn't work. Even if the ones who hear the message listen, that still leaves the majority of players who will never hear that message because really, most players of a video game aren't active in the game's community.
It would be nice if we all played casually. I play casual. I run a useless lazy BP build as killer. I'm running with Lute, Pebble, Plot Twist, and Plunderer's as survivor. The majority of killers I face? They're not interested in my casual, they find me cleansing a totem or opening a chest and I play my lute and I'm an easy mark; they focus on me instead of the ones actually doing gens. If they're playing to win I can't necessarily blame them for that, though why they're on me and not paying attention to gens is a mystery, but, and this is the funny thing, the killer gets rid of me and my friend early in the match and is then surprised and dismayed when the other two survivors just give up and want out. Not joking, I've witnessed it after dying with more than one streaming killer. They wanted an easier match and got it and they still weren't happy. lol
So, yeah, this is DbD, the game where no one is ever happy and everything is a monkey's paw. People enjoy winning but the gameplay to get to that win is often not fun (at least for many), but if you play casually you're all but guaranteed to lose and whoever the opposing side is they often try to make the experience of losing as miserable as possible.
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Nobody is popping 3 gens in 90s as purported without equipment add ons and perks.
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I'm actually talking about tunneling off hook, though. I don't necessarily consider finding the same survivor a minute or two after unhooking as tunneling. I've just noticed a sharp event increase in proxy camping and tunneling directly off hook.
That said, if they're unhooking and healing in your terror radius, it's not good play, but I'd attempt to chase the unhooker at detriment to my own win out of courtesy. I don't mind that not everyone feels that way though.
The other issue is soloq being injured and not getting body blocked or others taking chase. People are really selfish a lot of the time. I spent an entire match injured and nobody would heal me. They all ran to corners and self healed, and refused to let me heal them too.
Ugh, people.
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I often do the same and will always target the unhooker as it's a much better way of spreading pressure. But I often find that the same things that bother me about my teammates when I play SoloQ Survivor are the same things that result in me tunneling when I play Killer: the other teammates are not playing well and are leaving the tunneled Survivor vulnerable. Sometimes SoloQ teammates are toxic, sometimes they're just bad, but I think mostly it's a lack of communication. The teammate aura reading part of Kindred needs to be base-kit without a doubt.
I also want to reiterate that I fully get that intentional tunneling off hook is indeed miserable feeling. When I see it happening to a teammate I've already sort of resigned myself to the match being lost unless the rest of my team are all somehow super Survivor gods, which they most likely aren't (neither am I). I think that feeling of resignation leaves a lot of Survivor players in this sort of apathetic state where none of them are really putting much effort into trying, because why bother? I know that's how I feel a lot of the time when playing Survivor. But when all 4 teammates are in sync and coordinating, it feels great. I just think the game does not provide enough tools to help teammates coordinate, which it really needs to. Then Killers' MMR would be balanced out and they'd have a reason to stop complaining as much too because they'd actually be with Survivors at their skill level.
The main point in my initial response was this sense that a lot of Survivor players make out Killers to be horrible, ill-intentioned toxic people that tunnel just to make Survivor players feel bad, when it's really just the way the game is designed. I won't deny there are toxic players, but not all Killer players should have to feel like they're morally in the wrong and are terrible people simply because they won in a video game. The game itself is the problem, not the players. Toxic exceptions aside.
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What makes you think survivors can only repair generators efficiently (gen rushing) with BNPs? Survivors simply splitting on 3 generators or committing so hard they even go down just to repair the generator in your face, which you could consider as 'gen rushing' (like killers 'tunnel' their objective survivors 'rush' their objective)
OMG!!! They're doing their objective!!!! Yes, they are. But so is the killer who is 'tunneling' right? He's killing survivors. He's a killer, not a hooker.
When reading back your comments it almost seems like you're angry at players for doing their objective. They're just killing survivors, that's what they're meant to do. If you don't like the gameplay loop, that's a different problem. That's why I said "gen rushing" (simply survivors repairing generators efficiently) to try to show you what you're actually saying. But now "Im mad at coordinated swfs" or somehow you think survivors can only "rush" generators with BNPs. I've never said that. You're missing the point.
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Did you by any chance BM the killers? - If yes, then its deserved.
I played 5 games as killer yesterday just to do the event stuff, and i did not intent to kill anyone, but in 4 of the 5 games, survivors kept BMing me, and i ended up killing them because THEY could not behave and have fun, one did even use exploits so they could not be picked up after entering they dying state. The 4th game 2 of the 4 were BMing like crazy, and i ended up killing all 4, it turned out it was 2, 2 peron SWFs and the 2 i spoke with endgame were innocent but i thought it was a 4 man, they understood when i told why i killed them all and they accepted the apology.
Even in the 5th game, 1 of the 4 kept BMing me after i let them escape, - i did get an apology in the endgame chat afterwards tho.
So a lot of survivors are really not very nice towards the killers.
I will play freindly killer later, im hoping that survivors will behave better this time, i will not stay freindly if provoked, so its up to the ones i play against how the game ends.
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It's just ######### sad
Imagin, having two separate mod, where one, people want just to enjoy an aniversary, and just gettig a lot of hardcore sweaty player who are just there for ruining each game?
I was hopping than, having two different mod can get away these killer who hard tunnel, camp, and play the dirtiest way away, but no, it's even worse
And seeing people here, just like "You mad bro? Stop playing" add more frustration, and more toxicity in this game and in this community6 -
The claim was gen rushing, not Survivors just doing gens efficiently. Survivors popping multiple gens in 90s making it impossible for killers. It's is not the same. That's not happening unless all surv players are running gen builds. People that are defending hard tunneling just ignore entire parts of the discussion, it seems.
Killers killing and killers tunneling are also 2 different things. They have the same end result, but they're not equitable. Just like "gen rushing" and people just doing gens normally without builds to "rush" it aren't equitable.
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I prefer having fun to bullying and BMing. I think it's gross when anyone does it, killers and survivors alike.
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I agree, i belive in leading by an example.
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Killer is the power role and people still think both have equal influence and responsibility.
Also telling people to quit if they don't like something is really asinine and becomes amusingly hypocritical considering the same people whine when something they like gets nerfed.
OP hope the people in this thread don't discourage you from sharing your opinion. It's nice to see variety on this forum for once that isn't just killer hugboxing.
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For those here complaining about tunneling, let's see how good you are as killer and try winning with zero tunneling against good survivor teams. Post your videos and show us how it's done.
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Well said. Sad indeed.
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I think you read too much into it. It's people that play like they always do (or in some cases they might play even more win oriented because their opponents might not) but it's certainly not done to ruin the game in general. I fully understand your frustration but this just highlights how deeply flawed the game actually is when it comes to tunneling.
What reason does a killer have not to tunnel, assuming the survivors don't go out of their way to punish them for it? 2 perks that only work once on each survivor and were recently nerfed (Pain Res and Grim Embrace) and pretty much nothing else. But there are a lot of reasons for tunneling to be the default play style. It's more effective than spreading hooks, which means you win more games and it also leads to more BP. Plus you force survivors to do something to stop you from tunneling or they lose a team mate, which means you get extra slowdown from applying pressure at the right places. That's quite a lot. Not to mention your perks will work just fine when one person is eliminated, so even if it does put you behind schedule you can turn it around. This was one good thing about Ruin's nerf in 6.1.0 but for some reason they decided to go back on it and only left it with 100% regression.
Tunneling doesn't disappear just because there is a second queue. Why would it? It still works, it still is more effective than spreading hooks and it still lets you win more and gain more BP in the progress. That is a problem that needs to be solved. And you can't do that by just bringing a few perks back into the meta (though it's a start). You need to incentivise spreading hooks and at the same time disincentivise tunneling. These are similar but not the same. If only punishments were added, then they have to be so severe that a killer will basically lose by default, if they dare tunnel. This ultimately would make the killer role less enjoyable (nobody likes having a constant reminder that you could do something but you aren't really allowed to do it). If only incentives to spread hooks were added, then killers could still tunnel and for it not to be the meta play style, the incentives would need to be insane.
In general, tunneling is nothing personal and it shouldn't be viewed as such. It still sucks but it's not really toxic or malicious. So for now, your only real option is to deal with it one way or another. I fully understand your frustrations but it's not like we can do much about it. Until the devs make some major adjustments to the game, tunneling will remain an issue.
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I look at it like this:
All of us are people behind screens looking to have fun by playing the game. That's the ultimate goal of any game. . . Fun. This isn't squid game. You won't die irl if you don't win as fast as possible. Have some good fun chases. Give everyone some BP, hook some folks and, yes, kill them since it is the goal, then give legitimate ggs in chat for some genuine interaction. This is an event. People don't want to sweat here, generally speaking. What happened to the lighthearted event play from years past? Where did this influx of no ######### come from?
Post edited by EQWashu on6 -
Your issue is, you seem to think everyone has the same idea of what's fun.
You might find farming bp fun. I find stomping survs into the ground with the least amount of generators repaired fun.
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So, literally bullying. Got it. Sounds like a therapy problem.
To add to this, I'm not talking about farming. I'm talking about actually getting to play the game and enjoy it, like everyone who has ever bought a video game in the history of video games. That's the objective fun of video games. You'd be frustrated too if every time you downed a survivor, the game kicked you out. In fact, you'd probably be enraged. That's exactly what happens to the people you tunnel, just for existing in a game they like to play.6 -
Prove it or stow the anecdotal preaching.
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So, literally bullying. Got it. Sounds like a therapy problem.
To add to this, I'm not talking about farming. I'm talking about actually getting to play the game and enjoy it, like everyone who has ever bought a video game in the history of video games. That's the objective fun of video games. You'd be frustrated too if every time you downed a survivor, the game kicked you out. In fact, you'd probably be enraged. That's exactly what happens to the people you tunnel, just for existing in a game they like to play.2 -
Again, you have a different idea of what fun is. I enjoy playing the game to the best of my abilities. If you don't like it either play a killer. Or don't play.
That's the nature of online gaming.
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Events are always awful to play. It feels like everyone just becomes 10x sweatier and more toxic during this time. Everyone brings the strongest items and add ons and plays to end the game as fast as possible.
It's why after earning all the event items I just stop playing until the event ends.
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Um. . . You ok?
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Literal bullying is wild lol.
I dont see survivors getting all 5 gens done with the killer getting little or 0 hooks or the killer getting a 4k at 5 gens as bullying.
The team that played better that match (within the rules and possibilities of the game) won and by alot. I might think they are sweats or tryhards but not further then that.
If they were excessively bming i could see them being jerks in the match.
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Tunneling/Slugging/Camping is usually the most effective strategy to get a win as killer. People like to win in PVP games. If you are against a squad of survivors that likes to play efficiently, you need to tunnel/slug/camp to meet that efficiency as killer. The problem is that DBD is a game about pressure, so if you want to win, you need to enter the match already playing efficiently or risk falling behind; In a situation where both sides want to win, you cannot swap to efficient strategies halfway through the game as you have already fallen behind and will likely lose. 12-hook strategies do not work against competent survivors and I do not need to conform to made up rules by my opponents to win. I am not responsible for the survivors to have fun, just as they are not responsible for me to have fun.
Despite what people on DBD (and the forums) may try to convince themselves, DBD's win conditions are (which have been basically set by BHVR):
Killer: 2 kills for tie, 3 kills for win.
Survivor: 2 escapes for tie, 3 escapes for win.
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Are you?
Go ahead and prove it if you can.
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Are you asking for videos or? Like, sir, what are you doing here? This has some serious "What were you wearing when it happened" vibes.
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Across this thread I get the feeling that a survivor that is intentionally sandbagging their team is upset that a killer rather takes the easy kill they provide than put effort into chasing people that actually get involved in chases?
This games community is all black and white, and in absolute denial about their own "sides" shortcomings.
"Everything the other side does is toxic, everything my side does they need to do to have a chance to win"
It feels like BHVR more often sides with Survivors though.
That's why Anti-Tunneling Perks become baseline, but Regression Perks get nerfed.
I am tired of the "Tunnelling sucks" discussion.
Yes. Some people Tunnel because it's the most effective way to play. Either deal with it, or at least start packing DS.
Some people Tunnel because the same person keeps making themselves their target. Maybe by, I dunno, playing the Lute next to chests?
And people who dont Tunnel are still subjected to everything Survivors deem neccessary to win, but are equally unfun for Killers.
I still predict that if we stay on the current course, we soon get baseline DS.0 -
I run otr personally. And your response is largely not what I was referencing in the op. I'm talking about purposely chasing the person who was unhooked to take them out of the game, ie tunneling off hook. There's no sandbagging in tunneling. There's no accidents in tunneling. It's a very specific and intentional thing.
I went into more detail in the definition of gen rushing thread, but I'm fine with just bumping into the killer later and being chased again. If dude did literally anything else in between me being unhooked and chasing me again, I don't consider it tunneling.
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The same people who came in here to tell OP that they can play however they want and he needs to get over it are also making boatloads of posts whining about survivor leaving their matches on purpose. Welp, if you want to play like toxic trash, especially in what is supposed to be a fun event, then you get what you get. If people are leaving your matches in droves you are the common denominator, it is not ALL of them.
OP is not wrong, the sweat in this event has been pretty high.
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How dare you relegate the experiences of SA victims to the same level as something happening in a video game. The utmost shame on you, how disgusting.
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Im sure you're outraged.
The point was victim blaming. It's ok if you want to act like you care. I just don't believe you.
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Uh huh.
So can you provide anything to support what you're saying or what?
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OH I thought this poster was OP. And it seemed like they described sandbagging.
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