What are Knights guards supposed to do now?
So apparently, BHVR does not want knight to use his Guards to Corner or out maneuver survs.
As the new patch notes state, you should not be near your guards.
Just to get right on the numbers here:
Surv movement speed is 4m/s
Fastest guard is the assassin with 4,4m/s
The maximum distance for guards to set the flag is 6m.
Hunt startup duration is 2,5 sec.
If you max out on the patrol pathing, you gain 25% reduction on the startup.
Which equals to 1,875 sec.
Lets say you have a generous distance of 3m to the guard on startup.
He detects you, takes 1,875 sec to plant the flag in which you run away.
1,875 sec × 4m/s = 7,5m + the initial 3m distance = 10,5m distance to the guard.
Assassin chases for a maximum time of 12 seconds.
12 × 0,4m/s (the assassin is 0,4m/s faster than a surv) = 4,8m
This means the assassin gains 4,8m distance on you.
Even if he spawns right on top of your face, the 1,875 seconds you get to run away make it IMPOSSIBLE for any guard to catch you if you just hold shift-W...
So what are guards supposed to do now? Kick gens and Brake pallets?
If You are not supposed to work with your guards, shouldnt they at least be a threat to survivors?
Comments
-
Well, the part that the guards hunt duration draw faster if you are closer to them was the worst part for me. Lets hope BHVR change this before going into the live servers.
22 -
They listened to the feedback of survivor players. They want a killer who they can loop.
The new goal for devs is killers being a fun simulator for survivors, not killers being fun for the killer.
They're pandering to the majority of the community who buys their skins. Knight ai be another dead killer the devs will refuse to buff because survivors will complain
14 -
The thing is, if you are supposed to not work with your guards, what is the point of the banner? Wasnt that the counter to knight cornering you with a guard?
So you are essentially spawning a free endurance and haste buff for survivors to pickup that easily makes up for the 12 sec chase they had to do?
8 -
gen repair Simulator incomint...
0 -
The guards have pretty consistently been intended to flush survivors out and force them into you, as far as I can tell. If you look at Knight's dedicated "use your power as it's intended" achievement, it involves YOU hitting a survivor while a guard is chasing them, which I take to mean that they're meant to be a source of threat that pushes survivors out of position.
This isn't that unusual for DBD, there are a few things that are meant to threaten something which shouldn't ever happen- think of Pig's RBTs, which COULD kill survivors, but are not supposed to do that unless they're ignored. If someone goes to search boxes immediately without doing anything else, they're supposed to guarantee that the RBT won't kill them, and that's what the killer gets out of it too.
Now, that being said, I think it'd be hasty to conclude you can't use the guards for anything else just based on a dev update. Best to actually experiment with the killer on the PTB once it launches, and then draw some conclusions.
15 -
another dead killer..
9 -
The guards will be used for game delay and this version will somehow be worse to play against. We'll probably see Jailer spam for 32 second guard chases. I think the Knight's power just needs a full on rework. There's no way to make this interactive or skillful.
5 -
Truth be told, I can't say I'm a fan of him selecting guards. Jailor was my go to renovations expert I hated him so much I'd go out of my way to get him away from Me and get to a good guard
2 -
Jailer 90% of the time, 5% on assassin for hook rescues and 5% for breaking pallet on carnifex. I like these changes because they should make the knight more rewarding to play with brain usage. Main reason the knight is weak currently is because trying to play him by predicting survivor pathing is just ineffective and inconsistent compared to spamming carnifex for breaking pallets and tapping power at a loop twice without thinking. But you can't have carnifex without using the other 2 garbage AI and it's just a bad antiloop power compared to other antiloops.
0 -
If you're getting chased by jailer across the map from the knight, just grab the banner.
1 -
From the patch notes the only useful skill seems like the Carnifex breaking pallets, maybe scouting out gens for the Assassin or Jailer to kick?
True but the 3x less patrol time if the killer is within 8m sounds quite harsh.
5 -
I'm keeping an eye on that too, but I also don't want to come to firm conclusions before I've tested it.
It does sound like something that'll need to be changed, though.
0 -
Knight meant to be summoner. he summons guards to do various actions for him. jailer is designed around flushing out. He has bigger detection radius to do that. By extension of flushing survivors out, it also involves pincers survivors that he flushes out. Carnifex seems designed around breaking stuff at base-kit and granting aura reading although i think he can be extended to grant utility to the Knight however most of knight's utility add-on are downright terrible. The Assassin is meant to get hits. He moves faster than other guards and inflicts deep wound.
currently for Knight to hits survivors with summons, the survivor gets an exact 6 meters of distance. This calculated by activation time x total distance that survivor gets from running forward. 4.0 meter x 1.5 = 6.0.
The fastest guard being Assassin is 4.4 m/s. at max distance, the guard lasts 18 seconds. 0.4*18 = 7.2 meters.
6.5 meter - 7.2 meters gained over 18 seconds means that Assassin should 100% get a hit.
The main issue is bug AI is suppose phase through pallets but it goes around pallets which is conflicting problem with 8 meter 300% depletion change.
The mathematics do not support that.
2 -
I feel like it's pretty clear carnifex is for pallet breaking, assassin is when you want to split pressure and jailer is when you wanna try and pincer a survivor.
0 -
What are the guards supposed to do now?
Break pallets.
That's it.
6 -
Assassin is not meant to get a hit. None of the guards are meant to get a hit. BHVR wouldn't allow a killer design that gets hits 100% of the time. Actually carnifex with the dried horse meat is the one that's supposed to get a hit. Your calculations are all fine until you think about the banner spawn. Any decent survivor is going to loop them around a Z wall and go back to the banner because it spawns too fast. This isn't reliable against carnifex because his banner spawn is lot longer. Assassin is meant to punish hook rescues by spawning on top of the survivor as they finish the unhook. The animation takes too long to make enough distance and it's almost a guaranteed hit. At the very least, it's going to prevent bodyblocking so you can tunnel. Jailer's the worst out of the 3 at the moment. He's best used as a skull merchant drone.
The guards are at their strongest when the knight is zoning with them, so that the survivor can't freely rush to the banner and is forced to move to a useless part of the map. The knight is at his strongest when you chase 2 survivors at the same time who are also converging on the same area, meaning a surv runs to the same place as the survivor you're currently chasing, so now you're guaranteed a hit on at least one of them, and there's only 2 survivors doing gens. The chances of this happening in a real match are slim because to do this consistently you need to spawn a guard on a survivor outside of a chase and find another one immediately after. Such as in a 3 gen situation where a survivor is threatening a gen that you're leaving to defend another one or an unhook situation.
But this is too difficult to do at the moment, and even if you do spawn a successful chasing guard that doesn't just wander around, the survivor will simply run to the banner and cut the chase short unless it's carnifex. That's what these changes is intended to strengthen. You can now choose jailer at will with the longer chase and banner making it the best solo chaser guard, especially with a potential 36 second chase. That is nearly impossible for the survivor to outlast considering that already a 24 second chase from carnifex results in a hit or a very small distance saving the survivor.
1 -
The 3x less patrol time is a problem must not got into live. Aside from that, i think this patch will be a great buff/quality of life for the Knight.
I would add that Assassin can get consistent hits if the survivor is exhausted or in corner of the map. For example, in Dead Dawg Saloon, if you snipe a survivor doing the corners gens, most of the time they will get hit. I'm very eager to play the "new" Knight and test how it will be on the PTB.
Post edited by Rickprado on2 -
Why does Assassin move at 4.4 m/s AND applies deep wound then? What is the point of deep wound on hit if he is not suppose get the hit? He is definitely designed around being summoned and acquiring hits. It is in the guard name. He doesn't hits because of poor balance. Drawing long path right now with Knight is unrewarding. That is what this update aims to improve.
Your calculations are all fine until you think about the banner spawn. Any decent survivor is going to loop them around a Z wall and go back to the banner because it spawns too fast.
A decent Knight will just camp the banner. No good knight player will ever allow survivor to use Banner in chase. When Knight hits a survivor, the guard chases ends and so does banner. The banner is designed to make split pressure irrelevant for Knight. It completely rob of any ability to 3 gen because survivor can disable the guard chase if knight does not camp banner which is common in 3 gens as knight is using his guard for "split pressure". Despite this, many survivor are terrible enough to still 3 gen by the knight.
The knight is at his strongest when you chase 2 survivors at the same time who are also converging on the same area, meaning a surv runs to the same place as the survivor you're currently chasing, so now you're guaranteed a hit on at least one of them, and there's only 2 survivors doing gens.
Wrong. He is weakest because survivor are easily able to exploit banner. He is stronger when you are in the corner of the map, He summons a guard and he deploys a pincer attack where one guard goes right/left and Knight goes right/left closing in on the survivor. This updates aims to nerf this aspect of knight however i think that the numbers chosen are far too aggressive. 300% depletion rate is just an insane number. I suspect this number will be nerfed to lower value such as 200% post PTB. My other suspicion is that Assassin will still be ineffective because there is nothing in patch notes that says that guard may phase through pallets like they used when he was released. It used to work properly but something changed. They'll likely buff knight from PTB.
0 -
There's nothing to work with here. The survivors will not get caught by the guards. If the killer's power is just a bait, and you can't actually use it, what's the point of picking the killer? It's why I don't play Hag, Ghost Face, or Singularity, because as soon as you face survivors who know what the counters are, you physically can't get them.
2 -
This is just ridiculous. The Knight does get rewarded by long paths with Haste, although that's not enough and he definitely needs more. This update improves almost nothing about him; just selecting the guards. But what do you mean a good Knight camps the banner? I've literally never seen a Knight stand on the banner waiting for the survivor to circle back to it, and if they're not doing that then they're definitely not classed as "camping" it. They chase the survivor, the same as the guard, so that they can pincer. At the same time, sometimes he and the guard can chase the survivor, and they somehow get around to the banner anyway. How is the Knight "allowing" that if he's chasing them how he's supposed to? You're completely grounded in theory, like the killer's always gonna know exactly what path the survivor's gonna take to cut them off, or that camping the banner is somehow a good play when you're basically not doing anything.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with most everything else you said, but the parts I highlighted are just weird or miscommunicated. It is somewhat refreshing to see, as opposed to the usual "Knight is bad design (in that he can actually do something against survivors)!"
2 -
This update to him is nothing but a nerf, except for selecting your own guards.
2 -
Haste is useless. you lose more distance for drawing path than haste gives. A survivor moves at 4.0 m/s. for every second that you stand still, the survivor gains 4.0 total distance. For example, if you draw a path for 4 seconds, the survivor gains 16 meter distance lead. Killer move at 4.6 m/s. they catch-up 0.6 m/s. Knight gains 5% haste for 10 seconds. 0.2 x 10 second = 2 meters. So you lose 16 meters but gain 2 meters on haste. None of the knights guards can ever hit you at base-kit. it is free hold-w play for survivor.
For this reason, The dev are aiming to nerf knight's current play-style which is just to instant drop guards at loops because you lose no distance as knight for doing that. If you use Map of the realm+Double jailer, the Jailer has 18 meter detection radius. 18 meter detection radius is massive blue circle. It is so big that even if survivor hold-w as soon as you drop the guard at the loop, the jailer will STILL detect you. Not go into some nerdy details but the bigger detection radius → faster circle expands. In any case, they nerfing instant-drop guard jailer pincer play-style and buffing Assassin and Carnifex play-styles.
1 -
Carnifex for pallet breaking is absolutelly correct, assassin and jailer are just a joke as no one gets hit by assassin if they are paying attention and now if the knight chases alogside assassin you can practically ignore the guard as the timer decays way faster.
And jailer? Lmao you forgot about the banner mechanic, no way you will ever get pressure by the jailer for more time that it takes for the banner to spawn. Also why would you get pinced by jailer when you can just keep him busy and use the banner without letting knight corral you?
While I agree knight is a incredibly problematic killer and probably thr most uninteractive killer, this changes no doubt turn him into just a worst artist althogether. He is just an m1 killer that can break pallets fast and from time to time take people off of gens.
3 -
He summons a guard and he deploys a pincer attack where one guard goes right/left and Knight goes right/left closing in on the survivor.This is literally what I said in different words.
You dont need to spawn the guard in a corner to protect the banner. You can protect the banner by corralling another survivor as the knight into where the banner approximate area is and chase them both leading to other survivor. The second survivor cannot pick up the banner for the hunted one.
A decent Knight will just camp the banner. No good knight player will ever allow survivor to use Banner in chase.
What I said:
The guards are at their strongest when the knight is zoning with them, so that the survivor can't freely rush to the banner and is forced to move to a useless part of the map.
2 -
sweep the exit gate floors i guess lol
3
