Why do you think WoO needs a drastic change?
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Complaining about WoO strikes me as of on about the same level as complaints I read about Clown being 'OP' since Clown had unlimited bottles.
The main reason why WoO is complained about now is because there will always be complaints from people who favour one side over another in a two sided game where both sides aren't completely equal and survivor perks have reached such a level of limited utility that WoO is considered "complaint worthy" by people who don't or have almost never touched survivor.
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Defending gens is part of a killers job, and killing survivors is the other. They use gens to stop survivors from progressing so that they can kill them. And while doing gens is part of a survivors job, distracting the killer away from gens and avoiding death as long as possible (looping) is also part of a survivors job (the whole point of WoO). And unlike gen auras, WoO isn't basekit. It's a perk that takes up a slot, meaning players have to sacrifice something else to use it. That’s a fair trade-off, not an overpowered crutch.
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Pretty much this. Players trying to shame or tell others how to play really needs to stop. Everyone just blames something or someone else for their shortcomings. And not to start an us vs them, but it seems to be more killers than not. On the forums anyway.
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did you really make a comparison with killer seeing gen auras?
Killer is a solo role playing against 4 players and is extremely reliant on macro knowledge, thus seeing all gen auras is important for planning what and how you will so (you DON'T see which gens are repaired at all which is crucial thing about why gen auras are visible for killer)) and comparing it to memorizing tiles as a role played as a team of four players is wild, sometimes i really wonder if yall are even aware of how counterweighting opponent in an asym game works
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Yes, I made that comparison because the arguments against WoO can be made for gen auras. Gen auras and WoO are comparable because they both give their respective roles constant access to vital map information and limited resources/objectives. Solo or not both roles require map awareness. And while killers are solo, most survivors play solo too, meaning they also need to track what resources have been used not only by themselves but by their team. WoO is just information, it doesn't automatically make someone a better looper, just like gen auras don’t make a killer automatically better at defending gens. It's all about how you use that info.
I can further breakdown my points very simply.
"WoO doesn't require activation" Neither do gen auras.
"WoO elimates the need to memorize tiles or learn loops" Gen auras eliminates the need for killers to memorize gen spawns
"Windows and pallets aren't as important as gens" Windows and pallets are crucial for survivor to prolong chases and stay alive long enough to complete gens. Gens are just as important for killers because they are not only what slows survivor progress allowing them to get downs and kills, but also indirectly provide locations to where on the map survivors are at. Both resources directly impact each "side".
"WoO means survivors never have to guess where a window or pallet is" Gen auras mean killers never have to guess where survivors are working.
Etc. In short if you argue that WoO is a crutch that removes skill from survivor play that same logic can be applied to killers and gen auras. Both make the game easier for their respective roles without requiring deep map knowledge, which in a game with as many maps, map variations, and map changes that are constantly happening is a very good resource to have.
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again, making this kind comparison really tells me you don't understand the basics of this game asymmetrical nature.
Yes, I made that comparison because the arguments against WoO can be made for gen auras. Gen auras and WoO are comparable because they both give their respective roles constant access to vital map information and limited resources/objectives. Solo or not both roles require map awareness. And while killers are solo, most survivors play solo too, meaning they also need to track what resources have been used not only by themselves but by their team. WoO is just information, it doesn't automatically make someone a better looper, just like gen auras don’t make a killer automatically better at defending gens. It's all about how you use that info.
WoO gives one player in a TEAM ROLE info on all resources on the map, gens aura give killer, a SOLO ROLE auras of all gens without letting killer know which gens are being worked on, which is a crucial counterweight to gen aura reading.
Gen auras eliminates the need for killers to memorize gen spawns
meanwhile, killers need to:
- learn survivor spawning zones;
- predict where survivors will spawn.
And additionally, aura reading for killer is much more comparable to the budget version of survivors HUD with info on what their teammates are doing, if they are in chase and their health states.
Gen auras mean killers never have to guess where survivors are working.
dude, killers don't have basekit Discordance for even solo survs working on gens.
Etc. In short if you argue that WoO is a crutch that removes skill from survivor play that same logic can be applied to killers and gen auras. Both make the game easier for their respective roles without requiring deep map knowledge, which in a game with as many maps, map variations, and map changes that are constantly happening is a very good resource to have.
if you don't understand the point from my points above, then i have some sad news about your macro knowledge.
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If your point is that killers, because they're solo, should have access to more information (like gen auras) while survivors as a "team" role (regardless of communication) shouldn’t have comparable tools, then we're not on the same page here.
My point is that the criticisms of WoO and gen auras are the same. People argue that WoO "makes it easy because survivors don’t have to memorize loops or tiles" When the same logic applies to gen auras: they "make it easy because killers don’t have to memorize gen spawns."
It seems like you're focusing on the "solo vs. team" aspect, but that doesn’t change the fact that both WoO and gen auras give crucial map info that reduces the need for memorization. The fact that killers are solo doesn’t negate that both tools (gen auras and WoO) help their respective roles in similar ways.
I’m not saying killers shouldn’t have gen auras, it’s very valuable info and the game would be much harder without it. But I also don’t agree that WoO is problematic because the same criticisms people use to attack WoO could be used against gen auras. It seems like it just comes down to your personal opinion that it’s okay for killers to have this kind of info but not survivors. That’s fine, but since the criticisms are identical, I personally don’t agree with saying one is fine but not the other.
I'm not trying to insult you or question your intelligence and I would hope you're not trying to insult or question mine. So if my messages come across that way, it's not the intention.
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Moving the goalpost is just human nature, someone will always move towards the next thing that poses a threat, BUT you should also take the ammount and quality of complaints in mind. Back in the days I fought tooth and nail to get DH and MFT nerfed, because they just made the game unplayable as the killer and many, many were on my side.
Now, I think that exhaustion perks are in a good spot and everytime someone complaints about "OMG everyone uses Lithe these days to get a free escape! Nerf please!" or "#########?!?! SB is so toxic and unfun to play against! PLease nerf!!1" I defend this perks, because I TRY to be more neutral and unbiased then most people give me credit for :P Sure, its impossible, because I am a killer main, but I also have the pic picture somewhat in mind. When a survivor uses Lithe to just fast vault over a pallet they just tdropped and zoom off or when the whole lobby has SB and zooms off once I get even close to a gen, yeah, I grown a bit and grit my teeth, but I don't ask for nerfs, because this perks are in a pretty good spot and most players understand that Exhaustion perks are an important class for survivors, more akin to their power then anything else.
You will always have someone complaining about something, but most killers ain't jumping the wagon like they did with DH or MFT. With WoO I see issues, but ultimately they are not as pressing as this other perks I mentioned and I also see the value or even need of this perk for beginners, who are objectively the most vulnerable group in DBD and already have a pretty tough time. Maybe a nerf like WoO going into cooldown after you threw a certain number of pallets could be healty? Or maybe something like leaving the map awareness, but blocking out pallets and vaults that are close, like up to 12m could work? I don't know, but I will leave this in BHVRs hand without arguing for this kinda change, because I think that newbies need it. Still, I REALLY loath playing against yellow brainrot survivors who just run from one yellow spot to the next and predropping everything. Ugh.
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You would have a point if it weren't for the variable nature of gens. Basekit gen auras show absolutely nothing about gen progress, only the physical movement on the gen and its noise can be used to gauge progress, let alone regression status (only info on blocking is included basekit) while perks/addons need to be used for further information like that. The killer would benefit greatly from having that extra information, but has to waste a perk slot on perks like surveillance or addons on specific killers. Discordance is needed for info like if 2 or more are on the same gen.
Vaults are mostly binary, they're either there or not (though there is the variable on whether they are currently entity blocked of course) and likewise pallets can be either up, down, or broken (all of which can be gleaned from WoO of course.) Breakable wall status on top because why not? All of this information is provided in a way that allows for routing before/during chases, resource management information, general location of a chase if within the perk's radius, and even potential tile layouts (deduced by formations of auras , of course.)
By comparison, basekit gen auras are very simplistic, and offer little to no additional metadata. They can even get in the way regarding perks like BBQ. The only thing they give you is the location, if its done or not, and if its blocked or not. The gen aura is more comparable to basekit auras like downed/hooked survivors seeing their teammates/etc. Important, yet limited info. One could argue that the info WoO provides is still more than even gen auras augmented with perks/addons (unless stacked, which then ties into the build cost difference.)
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yeah I agree with you. There were a lot of perks that needed nerfs like dead hard coh and made for this. Those perks I felt had valid complaints. But when I hear complaints about hope (someone made a thread about it recently) or even current lithe (when no one complained about the perk back then) it’s just ridiculous. Again I see complaints about resurgence now💀 like bruh. It’s just like how I feel about perks like ultimate weapon. Yeah ok it might be annoying but the perk didn’t need a nerf either compared to something like eruption. At least in my opinion. Just not a fan the “let’s complain about something and once that gets nerfed let’s go after something else” mentality.
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Resurgence is an interesting case though. The community as a whole hasn't caught up to it, but its pretty good now and some content creators have showcased builds where they selfcared in 2.3s off hook. Thats just such a strong reset … couple that with some kind of self-unook, like the SWF version with multiple Up The Ante and Salty Lips that lead to basically 100% unhooking chance, and the killer can say goodbye to any pressure. Thats what you might call overtuned, ie performing a bit too well … but on the other hand its just a pretty good feeling to just needing a little bit of touch up after an unhooking ^_-
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I don't.
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Windows is fine as is. Not everyone can adapt to the constant map and tile changes every chapter and mid-chapter update. I can watch all the loop guides in the world, but having killers who are two pay grades above you, that know how to manipulate their red stain and push you to the weak side, I need every help I can get. Besides, nerf Windows and something else will just take its place and become the new Meta/problem.
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Gens may provide "limited" information, but location is vital, especially when gens are the main objective for survivors. Knowing where all gens are at all times is a huge advantage for killers, even without progress info. Constant awareness of gen locations is crucial for planning movement, defense, and finding survivors in general. When survivors aren't on gens, it becomes painfully obvious how vital that information is. For example, when two survivors remain and are hiding, killers can spend over 10 minutes trying to track them down. Many find this frustrating and shows how hard it would be to find survivors without constant gen location awareness—because gens = survivors.
WoO gives useful info, but it still requires skill to use effectively. It doesn't stop killers from using mindgames or other strategies to win chases. Both gen auras and WoO provide important map-wide information, and both can be game-changing depending on how you use that information. You say killers “waste” perk slots for extra info on gen progress, but survivors also have to “waste” a perk slot on WoO if they want to know whether the only pallet in a certain area has already been used. Without WoO survivors have no way of knowing this. (Excluding SWF of course because we're talking about the majoirty of survivor players, not the minority).
I don't think it's accurate to overstate the power of WoO and understate the value of gen auras, which give killers constant crucial information about the main objectives for survivors. Knowing where the main objectives for the opposite side are can absolutely make or break a game. One good Sabo to a hook, one good Discordance, can snowball or flip pressure completely. I think the reason killers have base-kit gen auras is the same reason survivors don't have base-kit gen auras. Because that information is very important.
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First paragraph: That's a pretty weak assessment. Survivors and killers both can know where gens are easily without having any aura on them as long as they know the maps and tile spawns. You have to remember that the killer is trying to find up to 4 survivors at any given time: The gen auras give the killer guesses on where to go, they say absolutely nothing about survivor presence. They function as a vague objective: without any information on progress or occupation, every time the killer is making a guess when approaching a gen guided only by its aura (obviously they can make educated guesses based on tile layouts/3 gen setups/etc, but they are still guesses unless they have a direct visual line of sight anyway) so they don't provide as much information as you're insinuating. For perspective, imagine if WoO only lit up tiles with pallets(I'd say both pallets and tiles, but that would light up almost every tile, of course.) It didn't highlight the pallets themselves, just the entire tile that contains them. Thats the level of vagueness vs clarity in a nutshell. Your last point about survivors avoiding gens for an extended period of time actually kind of defeats your own point, especially with the gen kick limit: There is little to stop survivors from escaping/hiding the moment they hear the killer's terror radius (or has their position revealed through auras/chase indicators/etc) and the killer would only know if someone was there based on the gen progress (if any) and can often be discouraged from patrolling all remaining gens properly (be it due to the lack of survivor interaction, distance between remaining gens, finding someone with an aura perk/addon, etc.) They gain next to nothing from the gen auras themselves unless, again, they use perks or addons specifically designed for that kind of info. Without them, its still just a matter of patrolling and/or using other means to specifically locate survivors.
Second paragraph: I already stated that WoO is a perk that gets stronger the better the player is, and even said it doesn't necessarily need to be nerfed directly. I do have to mention regarding:
You say killers “waste” perk slots for extra info on gen progress, but survivors also have to “waste” a perk slot on WoO if they want to know whether the only pallet in a certain area has already been used.that you are missing my point entirely: WoO gives more value per perk slot than almost any info perks in the entire game, I'd argue even more than Nowhere to Hide or its cousins Bond, Kindred and Empathy (Though I will admit a case could be made for certain killer perks/addons paired with said killers.) You're also wrong about WoO being the only way to have that info: not only can other perks provide very similar info both directly and indirectly, but their primary functions are weaker than WoO's to boot. There are also multiple basekit ways to know that info (seeing debris where a pallet would be, knowing the tile and knowing that a pallet was supposed to have spawned in a particular spot, seeing an ally's aura via another perk while they throw it down or vault over it, etc.) so the necessity is a bit hyperbolic. People can play just fine and still glean a lot of its information without taking the perk, the perk just makes a lot of that info more obvious and considerably easier to process without having to rely on that level of deductive reasoning. Again, I think its an OP perk only because its value ratio is far too high, and don't necessarily want it to be directly nerfed. It just needs to be made to fit in line with the value of its alternatives.
As for your last paragraph, I completely disagree. You are the one overstating the power of basekit gen auras: Info like having an increased liklihood of a survivor being in that area is not guaranteed, and scratch marks/blood pools need to supplement that guesstimate to know if there even was a survivor there before you get LoS. Again, I would sooner compare it to the basekit auras of allies that survivors get while downed/hooked. This is also not even accounting for the amount of info the HUD update gives survivors now, while killers don't even have hook counters for survivors on top of all the other information they need to continuously account for while starting on the losing side of a time crunch. They're not on the same level at all.
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Thank you for your insights. I believe this ultimately boils down to personal opinions on what is considered strong or valuable in the game, and I respect that we may see these things differently. From my perspective, having gens revealed at all times provides significant information that enhances a killers ability to plan, locate, and defend the main objectives of survivors. It reduces guesswork and allows for better map control, which I perosnally see as highly valuable. I get alot of value out of knowing where to be, and while some of it does involve guesswork, personally, it is pretty uncommon for a gen to hit significant progress and then be abandoned. At least in my games both as killer and survivor, if I come across a gen survivors have put alot of progress into, I can typically come back to it and find someone there time and time again, often resulting in chases/injuries/downs, which I am consistently getting value from because of my gen patrolling playstyle.
Regarding WoO, I fully agree that it's a strong perk. My point isn’t that WoO is weak or ineffective, I simply don’t think it’s overpowered. While WoO provides great information about pallets and windows, it still requires a perk slot because it isn't base-kit, can be somewhat map dependent if the map itself doesn't have many windows or pallets, and it demands skill to use effectively, which I believe balances out the value you get from it. In contrast, gen auras are base-kit and always available, and that information can be further enhanced with certain perks or certain killers if you want to focus in on them a bit more, which in my opinion helps to balance out the strength of the information provided by WoO in my view.
I personally don’t agree that WoO gives more info value than any other perk in the game, but I do think this has to do with just someone's personal gameplay as the value they will get out of a certain perk will be different in comparasion to someone else (especially different killers). For example, full aura-reading perks like Weave Attunement + Franklin's Demise or something like Wiretap provide full body auras, which I personally consider stronger than WoO because I have gotten more value out of both of those in my games. I also don’t mean to suggest that WoO is necessary to play well, and if that is how it came across, it wasn’t my intention. It’s absolutely possible to play without WoO, just as it’s possible to play without any perks at all. Afterall perks are designed to enhance gameplay, not dictate it.
In my original reply to the 1st person, (which was in response to someone else, and you’re the third person I’ve discussed this with—sorry if things have gotten a bit jumbled), I was comparing the criticism of WoO as a crutch to how similar criticism could be applied to gen auras. Some may disagree, but I think it's because they see the value of gen auras differently than the value of pallet and window visibility, not necessarily because the comparison is invalid. (no thought run to yellow, no thought run to red) I believe both provide valuable information in similar ways. The difference in opinion is more about how valuable that information feels to each individual player.
To put it simply, I think both gen auras and WoO offer useful information and good value, and I think that something that requires a perk slot should give good value, and because thers only 1 killer v 4 survivors it's fair that a perk slot is not required for that information. But I am aware that the value of WoO itself, just like gen aura value, can comes down to personal playstyle and preference. For example, some players might not care about seeing pallets or windows if they focus on stealth, while others might not value gen auras if they prefer a proxy camp or injure centered playstyle. And gen auras on a trapper may not be as valuable to him as gen auras for a wraith, just due to mobility, but I still think gen auras give value regardless, just as WoO will always give value but depending on who is running it that value will differ because it relies on personal skill. If WoO were base-kit, so all 4 survivors constantly had it, I’d agree that the value would be greater than gen auras, and OP, but since it occupies a perk slot, and still heavily relies on personal skill to be effective, I believe the trade-off for that valuable information is fair. We may disagree, and that is fine.
Ultimately, these are just different perspectives on what we each find valuable in the game. I appreciate the conversation and your thoughts, and how respectful you've been.
(edited to add in something I forgot)
Post edited by hermitkermit on2 -
That's not true at all. Old Zanshin Tactics woudl never have the same value as WoO simply for the difference between the roles. As a survivor, you decide which loop you should go next in a chase and ultimately you are the most interested party in knowing where the closest loop with a pallet is.
However, as a killer, it doesn't really matter knowing which loops are close and which ones still have a pallet because:
- If a pallet has been broken, it is because you did it.
- Even if you know where the next loop the survivor is going, I makes no difference since you can't really stop them.
That's why Zanshin Tactics was never used and got reworked and WoO appears every game in more than one survivor.
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I still disagree with a lot of that, but it's all stuff thats subjective, like you said. That and the courtesy are the two things I can definitely get behind, always nice to be able to disagree without it being an argument, even helps with getting into people's mindsets ingame based off the perspective.
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I dabbled with both Zanshins; id say the WoO effect is undeniably "low impact/value" that made justifying a perk slot hard...but there still is some undeniable value.
Knowing is half the battle. Dead Hard proves this to us. We were all too afraid to swing. But if we knew they were exhausted, that alone could swing the chase and perhaps the game. Zanshin is no different. You can memorize everything ever, but there's a subtle, even if microscopic impact between knowing something 99% sure and 100% sure.
Survivor behavior is largely determined by perks; if you can tell perks you get an idea of that persons headspace ; Lithe gamers have Lithe brain for example, so seeing that window aura may make me "yolo" a blind Pyramid Head attack that I'd never attempt without that guaranteed knowledge even though I probably know that Window could be there
Now that Zanshin is legit with the aura read I can enjoy the pallet aspect guilt free
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