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Seriously, what's the point in playing survivior anymore?!
Comments
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See i don't see anything wrong there. If one side is going all out like that then the other side can too. If you can't hook because they are saboing hook instead of doing gens then yeh your valid.
I personally play solo q where were just trying to get gens so when a killer goes all out as if we're a 4man sabo squad I'm like "erm…hello?"
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It should be basekit.
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Its obvious that devs dont care. Also its quite obvious what side they strongly support..
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The only thing that is the devs fault is issues that haven't been addressed. That 60 kill rate has zip to do with a lot of your original post. Also what do perks and gen times have to do with sweaty players who are tunneling and dancing on you?
They (the devs) didn't make it hell to play is what we're saying. As we've told Autharia above it's the fault of players. The devs didn't tell people to sweat an ocean. The devs didn't tell people to be arses to each other. The devs certainly don't hold loved ones hostage telling them to do this or that (that we know of). All those problems are laid at the players feet. Can the devs do something extreme and chain up every single problem? Maybe, but it's going to cost player agency and probably the life of the game.
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Actually, the 60% kill rate is somewhat related to this. Survivors are matched against killers that are considered by their kill-rates to be likely to take out 60% of survivors on average.
That explicitly leads to pairings where these behaviors are happening. This is presumably because people some players think they have to try as hard as they can and 'win' at all costs, leading them to higher MMR than they should really be in.
When players tunnel and proxy camp and slug for 4k, they can easily increase their kill rate without needing much skill to do it. That gives them harder matches because the MMR system then sees their kill rate and gives them harder opponents. Then those players keep tunneling and camping because they don't even have the skill to compete with the players they're up against otherwise. The same thing happens to people who hide all match as survivors and get hatch all the time, and get out through the gate when their teammates are good.
Having said that, changing the 60% kill rate to 50% or 40% could lead to the same thing, though the dynamics of it might play out differently. So changing the target kill-rates may or may not solve the problem. But coding a prevention mechanism for some playstyles will directly impact player experience. This indicates that the solution to the problem of abusive playstyles could really be to code in prevention mechanisms for tunneling, camping, and other problematic playstyles.
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Seriously, what's the point in playing survivior anymore?!
No real point unless you are a SWF its a luck based game with 0 agency.
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We're about 80% sure that's not how it works. Survivor players are matched with killer players based on their MMR. The kill rate is how well the collective players of that killer do, or more accurate, kill survivors. They aren't matched with a specific killer due to kill rates (ie a survivor wouldn't specifically be matched with a Wesker for surviving often). We could be wrong but we'd like solid proof first.
You kinda backed my point here on how it's the players fault. People keep thinking this or that leading them to do that or this. That isn't anyone's fault but the players.
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Yeah, I fully agree that players should be more aware of how their playstyles affect other players' experiences.
I think the MMR system gives a score to survivors based on how often they escape through the gate (win) through hatch (tie) or get sacrificed (loss), and killers based on how often they get a win (3k or 4k), tie (2k), or loss (0k or 1k). (With killers' scores are centered around a 60% kill rate.) Then the system attempts to match survivors and killers with similar scores into matches, but also prioritizes matchmaking speed. I've heard people argue that this can lead to people needing to rely on tunneling, camping, etc. for wins if they want to stay at their MMR when they've overrelied on those tactics to get to their current MMR. It could be that those players would do those things anyway though :(
I guess the issue with these is that we can fix oppressive or abusive playstyles in two ways. Incentives/disincentives to push people toward fun playstyles can be coded in, or we can try to change the culture around the game. My feeling is that we should always promote a positive gaming culture, but we'll probably always have some players who play in ways that make their opponents' experiences worse than they should be. Then if we can't successfully manage the gaming experience through social incentives, updates to in-game effects will be needed. I suspect we'll generally need an approach incorporating both?
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killers based on how often they get a win (3k or 4k), tie (2k), or loss (0k or 1k). (With killers' scores are centered around a 60% kill rate.)
This is the part we're confused by. By "killers score" are you referring to the killer "character" or "player"? The kill rate is based off the first while match making is based off the latter.
Regardless of that train of thought, there's not going to be a clean solution to fixing "bad behavior". Incentives will only work for those who care, those that don't will continue as normal. Deincentivising (butchered spelling) would need to be extremely specific less you begin to remove player agency, which is a slippery slope. We'd agree that to truly curb it you'd need both.
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Ah, I see the ambiguity I left in my statement. I was referring to the player's personal score based on previous matches. A person with no experience using Nurse can easily perform poorly :)
Though I guess you know how this works: there's also a player specific effect that carries over to all killers they use. If someone does well with a few killers, their MMR with other killers they use later is raised somewhat under the assumption that they have some basic knowledge of the way the game works. But each killer a person uses is assigned a killer-specific MMR for that specific player.
So the player-specific-killer-specific MMR is used to match a killer player against survivor players.
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I agree that this is what many survivors expect. The problem is that playing "nice" and spreading hooks around basically guarantees 0K for the killer. Most people who play killer actually want to have a chance to win (3-4K) and nobody should get mad about that. Killer players have every right to play to win as survivors do.
Some people on this will claim that it's still possible to win playing "nice" and spreading hooks. Not a single one of them has ever offered up video/links of their own gameplay to demonstrate that this is actually possible.
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players-killer main
just a quick thing for tunnelers and campers its a skill issue if you cant win without it so please practice and change that
im not trying to be mean about it so i hope it didnt come across that way but seriously please think from the survivors pov its just
join-get tunneled-die-repeat
so eventually people will stop playing if it keeps going on so you wont have fun either
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Some people on this will claim that it's still possible to win playing "nice" and spreading hooks. Not a single one of them has ever offered up video/links of their own gameplay to demonstrate that this is actually possible.
Probably because, if they do, suddenly the survivors they played against were "terrible", or their perks carried them, or the map is killer sided, and the list goes on.
Offering their own gameplay would probably attract those who will try to find countless reasons to discredit said gameplay, even if it proves that it is indeed still possible to win while playing like killers used to play.
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Can you offer up some advice on how to win consistently as killer without ever camping or tunneling? If not, then I can assume that you are just simply trolling killer players
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I think that if you're using camping and tunneling effectively, then when you stop using those tactics your kill rate will briefly decrease. Then after a little time, your MMR will drop and you'll face survivors you don't need to tunnel or camp against.
At that point, your skill keeps building as you use other approaches to killer gameplay and you optimize your playstyle. Then your MMR will slowly increase again, but without camping and tunneling :)
Having said that, I think some killers might not be suited for very top MMR play. Like Nurse and Blight might work well against the best survivors, but killers with lower mobility may struggle. My feeling is that when I hit that ceiling with a particular killer, that's where I play, and the MMR system will still match me with manageable survivors.
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Your idea is correct, in theory. In practice, however, the SBMM system is completely non-functional, at least in my experience. There is just no consistency whatsoever in the level of players you are matched with/against. As solo q survivor, I'll get matched with brand new players one match, lose, and then get matched with great, experienced players the next. Same thing on the killer side. I'll get matched against a full team of 8,000-hour+ players one match and then total noobs the next.
I'll never be convinced that the SBMM system actually worked until the devs provide us with our MMR scores and show everyone else's in endgame lobbies. That's never going to happen, and I believe the reason is will never happen is because it will reveal that it doesn't actually work.
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I used to think there is a reason to come in get the skins and maybe do the challenges. But you play 1/2 matches and realize nothing changed and no matter how much FOMO they arent worth doing
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That's fair. I think DBD's SBMMR system is integrated into an algorithm that prioritizes matchmaking speed too, which probably contributes to a lot of these problems.
For me it tends to make sense to be matched up with players who are more or less talented than I am to get a match in less than five minutes. But that might also be why sometimes I get pretty weird matches.
I know personally, I don't tunnel or camp outside of bully squads, and sometimes I have an easy time, but others, I'll get outplayed. Sounds like a pretty similar experience to yours. I guess one difference is that I don't mind taking an occasional 1k or even 0k. But for me, I think my killer matches tend to balance out as expected with more wins than losses. Survivor though? It's been an absolute mess lately.
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I really can’t understand posts like this. Why should we be expected to consider the experience of the opposing team in a PvP game? In 1v1 games or team matches with equal numbers, I've never seen anyone ask their opponents to go easy on them. If we were actually meant to achieve a balanced 12-hook game, BHVR would have implemented such a system by now. Tunneling, slugging, and fast generator completion are not wrong ways to play. Just because someone finds it unpleasant doesn’t mean they should criticize others for making choices within the rules or push their own rulebook onto others.
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In those games the game is balanced for a 50/50 chance to win not a 60/40 (on its best day without BMing.)
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If the game were adjusted to a 50:50 win ratio, killer players would likely go extinct. Just kidding—but what I really want to say is, "Why would anyone demand that opponents in a pvp game go easy on them?" Imagine someone telling their opponent, “I don’t know how this match will go, and I don’t know how skilled you are, but you should hold back so I can win!” That person would definitely get some strange looks.
(And please don’t say, “It’s because this is a party game.” I’m honestly tired of hearing that.)
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This is like asking why I should consider the experience of my opponents when I play sports. We do that because everyone should be having fun. The only time cheap tactics should reasonably get used is in gaming leagues or professional sports (or esports).
Every person playing any game with another person should be expected to consider the experience of the people they're in the game with. We all play games to have fun, and cheap tactics like tunneling, camping, and slugging for 4k make the game less fun, as does taunting (e.g. by teabagging during chase or at gates).
And this isn't to say 'don't play hard', just don't make the game completely awful by using cheap playstyles.
If a person wants to engage in cheap tactics or taunt other players, they should recognize that those behaviors make the game worse for the people they share it with. If someone doesn't want to do that, it's probably best if they consider playing single player games instead.
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I don't think all that's happening in 1 match. Did a killer really tunnel you, without a single gen being done, and then you got BM'd on the ground for minutes, without the killer losing any additional gens?
You've got some points though. Gates should be getting opened nearly every time, if survivors are playing well. There's no reason to give up as survivor, and I'm pretty sure if they didn't they'd escape a lot more. There needs to be harsher penalties for constant DCers, if not put them in their own queue. Killers are gonna sweat. The only way to combat that is to sweat yourself. I don't buy a lot of cosmetics myself, because they're just so dang expensive, no matter the currency.
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I think people resort to asking players to consider the fun of their opponents because BHVR’s devs have an awful track record with giving a ######### about either side (at different points in DbD’s history) enjoying their game. At day’s end, it is up to a game’s developers to ensure that parity and an opportunity for enjoyment exists for all players.
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Game
They keep releasing perks that are more and more powerful (because why would they charge for perks that are WEAKER than what's already in the game?) and killers that are more powerful (Dracula is just Spirit with 2 extra powers) so you either go full meta or get stomped.
If they were creative and could think of NEW powers for killers to have, or NEW things for perks to modify, this wouldn't be a problem. But every perk is just more aura reading, more gen regression, faster vaults, etc…
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I can guarentee this isn't every game or even half your games mate. Before deciding that this game is nothing but toxic record a good 20 games and see exactly how many are that bad. you will be shocked at how few have that level of toxicity.
The other thing is if you are feeling this way its the perfect time to take a step back from the game4 -
Novel idea just play the game with no expectations stop this entitled behaviour of expecting others to cater to your fun.
Dont like how the game is played dont play it pretty simple stuff hey2 -
So, in Little League, do they teach students to "go easy on the other team to avoid making them feel bad" just because it's not pro sports? Just because it’s a 1v4 doesn’t mean the single player has to hold back. It’s not the killer's responsibility to ensure a fun experience for the survivors. The killer isn’t the caretaker or parent of the survivors—they’re also just regular players trying to enjoy the game.
If you’re going to bring up the idea of a “fun experience for all players,” then survivors would also need to consider the killer's “fun experience” by evenly repairing all seven generators without trying to t-bag or flashlight-stun.
And as for so-called "cheap tactics," the game’s system doesn’t prohibit any of them. Are you saying tunneling should result in a ban? Slugging? Generators being repaired quickly? None of these claims make sense. In strategy, there’s no such thing as "dirty" or "clean" tactics.
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I feel the same way. It’s strange that players need to debate just to enjoy their own gameplay experience. Plus, metas vary by server—for example, on the Asia server where I play, Adrenaline is considered a “joke perk.” So, achieving balance that fully satisfies every player is probably quite difficult.
Still, I hope BHVR keeps up their efforts, because I truly love this game ❤️
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Thing is most tournaments (AKA esports style) for DBD on a quick search list no camping, slugging (Most being more the 2 at once without hooking) and some tunneling in their rule sets, on top of wasting time when a game is clearly over for both sides. So those cheap tactics can only be done in Bog-standard games taht we play in.
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I usually write too much trying to show my thinking; thanks for reading it... like, for real :)
I'd say there are definitely 'dirty' or 'clean' tactics, but it's just not always obvious or agreed upon about what's clean or dirty. Community discussions about those things are probably good. And I fully agree that survivors teabagging is bm too. It's basically used to taunt the killer, which I don't like from either side. The killer's fun is just as important as any survivor's fun :D
To directly answer your questions: I don't think bm should be bannable in the game. But I do think it should be discouraged.
And in little leagues, they often have a mercy rule that makes it so one team doesn't have to suffer while the other team keeps building a bigger score. They do try to incentivise good sportsmanship in children's sports, even when they teach them to try their best 🙂
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We hardly see how Dracs perks are stronger than some of the past things, things that many people keep using at that instead of the newer things. And that's not going into the fact you're able to run non meta and win as either side (survivors need competent teammates but that's again players, not the game). Still on players.
What would you consider new? Whenever the devs have gone into super new territory it's been either applause or riots with little in-between. The last thing we'd say is wholly new would be either Hux or Chucky. We can think of a few new things but we'd bet cold hard blood points that a large vocal group would immediately be against them. If the devs did something drastic but new would you be on board?
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ME TOO!
when I play killer I get Seal Team Six, when I play survivor it's potatoes 80% of the time.
I totally understand where these no skill killer playstyles come into play because of these bully squads or just a group that bullies. But not every group is like that and I can understand that.
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Thank you for sharing your thoughts! I often find myself frustrated by the frequent arguments on this forum that only the survivor’s enjoyment should be prioritized. I feel it's unfair that killers’ enjoyment often seems secondary simply because they are the “power role,” despite both sides being just players. Since I play about 50:50 as killer and survivor, I believe both roles should be equally fun.
As for "dirty" vs. "clean" tactics, personally, I don’t see tunneling or slugging as “dirty.” While opinions vary, I believe it’s only natural to make the best decisions available in any match. You can’t gauge an opponent’s skill within the first minute, and early moves are incredibly important in this game. So, for a killer to use tactics like tunneling or for survivors to focus on gens is just a natural part of the flow.
In Japanese professional baseball, there’s an unspoken rule that “stealing bases is not allowed when there’s a big lead,” as it’s seen as dirty. Yet, one could argue that always doing one’s best without holding back is a sign of sportsmanship.
This is a challenging issue, and I’m glad to exchange perspectives with others who might feel differently😉
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Ranked would be the real casual queque as it should have much tighter MMR so players to win would face players to win. And players playing for fun would face players playing for fun.
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It's not about going easy it's about hitting above the belt.
If you ever get into a street fight, it's assumed you don't go below the belt because that's when buddy will draw a knife.
Good sportsmanship helps keep games alive. Dbd is already notorious for poor new player retention
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In both amateur and professional sporting events they do have codes of conduct they need to follow. I get what you're saying (especially since most people inherently find losing unfun) but there's a bit more nuance than that. In general with sports you can play however you want as long as its within the rules (including sportsmanship.)
In this game people have an extreme lack of respect for their opponents, probably due to not being able to be punched in the face when playing in a disrespectful way. In fact quite the opposite, they're more likely to use toxicity for clout/streaming/videos/etc. It bleeds into their perspectives of nearly everything about the game, even balance. Major "not my problem" energy, until it is their problem (then its obviously the worst thing in the world.)
Shoutouts as always to the ones who conduct themselves respectfully, as well as the ones who are equally concerned with both sides issues/grievances.
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90% of the time when I play soloq survivor i'm mad at my teammates more than the killer
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I'm not against BHVR nerfing survivor perks, but they need to keep improving solo queue. Otherwise the weakest role in the game just gets worse.
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Thanks for your thoughts! 😊
Personally, I don’t see tunneling, camping (or even fast gens and slugging) as actions that go against sportsmanship. I often hear arguments that these tactics are unsportsmanlike, but to me, it just sounds like using “sportsmanship” as a shield to ask the other side to go easy. I also don’t see an issue with these tactics leading to an increase in internal MMR—can you really call a rank earned by holding back a true reflection of skill?
To me, unsportsmanlike behavior would be things like trash-talking with an "ez" after the match or taunting a slugged survivor with inappropriate gestures.
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Although I know you and I have a different picture of sportsmanship, I'd still say people aren't using the sportsmanship argument to get others to go easy on them. Tunneling and camping are like hunting a defenseless animal as it's being released from a cage. If you're able to tunnel someone out quickly, that's not even an expression of skill, it's like bullying someone with no power to stop you.
And for most people, you're ruining their game when you tunnel them. They get no chance to participate in the game as normal because you decided it was alright to immediately kick them out of the match. Any time someone participates in an activity with other people, they need to consider the experience of the other people they're interacting with. The game is meant to be fun for everyone involved, and tunneling, camping, and slugging for 4k make the game awful for the targeted survivor.
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with pleasure actually
as soon as you begin the game if there is a hidden offering on the survivor side just run to the farthest gen and look around because you are likely to find someone
if hatch has spawned and you find it dont instantly close it instead just wait a few seconds and see if the survivor rushes it
when you down a survivor dont always instantly pick up because someone may be around to blind you
if you want any more tips then just ask because im not trolling on this im genuine
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Oh, I absolutely agree. Strategies like tunneling, slugging, camping, gen rushing, bodyblocking other survivors, flashlight saves, none of those are inherently unsportsmanlike. It comes down much more to the way people carry themselves, both in terms of ingame taunts (W-Sing, teabagging, etc) and any form of postgame chat.
My best example is with fighting games, using street fighter as an well known sample. Zoning has always been a thing in fighting games, as have grapplers. Grapplers are inherently a bad matchup vs Zoners pretty much 90% of the time, but nobody expects the zoner to not zone just because their opponent is inherently weak vs that strategy. Scrubs will complain about how such a matchup shouldn't exist, while most players will learn and adapt. Honest players would never expect the zoner to handicap themselves due to having an advantage. If the zoner starts taunting after each fireball, or starts mocking the other player while they struggle with the matchup, that would be unsportsmanlike.
Sportsmanship doesn't have anything to do with strategies themselves. Since Hockey comparisons are so famous with DBD, just imagine a team not taking advantage of an opponent in the penalty box. People have very weird expectations for their opponents in DBD, and its important to differentiate when their grievances are frustration at losing vs their opponent actively antagonizing them.
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None of these are necessarily bad advice, but I think they were referring more to how to deal with the strongest issues that killers can have at high level, things like countering comms, lose/lose scenarios (usually caused by perks, sometimes by items) Losing the numbers game re: time efficiency and pressure, specific powers/perks/addons losing their effectiveness considerably vs good and/or coordinated players, etc.
Things like not instantly picking up survivors (unless you know where the rest are, and none are nearby of course) is indeed good advice, but that isn't enough to secure wins in uphill battles. Just situational considerations. The disliked strategies are generally either proactive or reactive to those types of issues.
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thank you for the clarification
if its a lose lose situation then go for the lesser loss which may just be ending a chase or not hitting a gen but if its guarding gates then id recommend you pretend to leave so your terror radius goes away then come back very shortly and if the light is on then happy hunting
if you could give me more lose/lose situations id gladly try and give advice for them
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A good example would be when someone is down under a pallet, while multiple survivors are nearby with flashlights. You can't scare them off and they have two (or more) avenues to punish the pickup, so you have to abandon the pressure and hook and try to bait one of the other survivors into overextending so they can get hit with minimal chase. The lesser evil response in this case would be to switch targets to whoever overextends closest, but the situation itself's only positive outcome is that at least 2 survivors are off gens at the moment (that said, up to 2 ARE on gens, while your time is being wasted.)
Some common lose/lose scenarios have thankfully been removed, such as the old FTP/Buckle Up combo, Boil Over+UB/Exponential/ RPD upstairs library, and the classic old DS/UB, but basically its any situation where you have no "correct" option, you just have to pick one and mitigate as much lost time/pressure it costs you.
coordination can often create these scenarios, things like perk synergies or strong items like syringe and styptic addons. I'm not going to begin to pretend that extreme case examples are the norm in each match, but it can be particularly debilitating when those types of time wastes happen that halt all momentum in those interactions.
This wouldn't be as much of an issue if it accounted for the entire survivor team, but often it only takes 1-2 to create multiple interactions that can create these scenarios. Their effectiveness always depends on the number of remaining survivors, which is part of why strategies like tunneling are the answer. Same as how slugging is the answer in the pickup scenario earlier, camping can be the smart answer if gens aren't being worked on and survivors are hovering to make the save, etc. These strategies aren't necessarily the first choice for every high mmr killer, but you'd be hard pressed to find any that don't need to apply them occasionally as the matches unfold.
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