Tired of all the complaining against killers
Ok, everyday there’s dozens of posts crying about tunneling or slugging and such. Let me try to help you understand something: That’s the idea of the game. It’s supposed to be hard to survive, that’s the thrill of the game.
The game is incredibly survivor sided. You might say:
“Killers hold a 60% win rate” Yes buuuuut this is considering every single tier, skill and mmr division there is. How many times have you had a guy leaving the game after his first hook? People doing glyphs, opening chests or just being silly and not doing the objective? A lot right? If people played to win as survivors, it would be at least a 70-30 survivor win rate.
“We don’t believe you!”
Have you seen competitive games? Every single game the killer has to slug, tunnel and camp hook and most of the times he gets a 2k, with all gens completed in 5 minutes.
Please guys, understand that is part of the fun, beating the odds and surviving. Even end game is very survivor sided. Hatch, unbreakable, keys, doors, adrenaline. There’s plenty of chances to survive, just enjoy the fun and stop trying to nerf killers to the ground, at high MMR is already very hard to win and dare I say, stressful as hell.
Comments
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The game is incredibly survivor sided
Hatch, unbreakable, keys, doors, adrenaline.
What year is this?
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You lost all credibility the second you implied that the existence of UNBREAKABLE means the game is survivor sided
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@Vishlumbra :
My best advice for your problem 'Tired of the complaining against killers' :
close your internet browser…When you speak about 'competitive', high MMR & things.. Are you speaking for yourself too ?
'cause I ngl but I certainly have a low-mid MMR (probably below 1100) and I swear: I'm so often be slugged, camped & 100% killed bleeding on the floor (by my own fault & mistakes or not) that in soloQ these fancy stats are absolutely unreal: I am 100% dead 9 games on 10 in this way ! And sometimes (I can't tell how often it happens) these 'strats' start since the beginning of the trial (at 5 gens) and not at the all end…How can we find that so 'fun' ? It requires no effort for killer to stay in the same place & to incitate randoms in soloQ to lack of coordination. And now, they have all the reasons to do so…
So you can complain about complaining against killers but I can complain about the fancy things that everyone can tell about statistics, gameplay or whatever else in contradiction with the main lines…2 -
Ill admit ive seen both sides of this for quite a while. When playing killer sometimes you decide to take it easy and follow the "rulebook" and then the survivors take FULL advantage of it and t bag you out the gates rather than be a good sport about it or even mention it in thr endgame chat. So you feel pressed to kill mow them down and take FULL advantage of any of their "casual" play. But then theres times when ur on survivor and you bring like a healing build or something, just need some unhooks, and the killer just hard tunnels you so you cant even breathe or try to hide or anything then u just die and get nothing out of the round except a bit mad. So you go to the next one and somehow it happens again. So you go to the next one with distortion to try to not be first atleast, still happens. Theres a point where the survivors dont get to even play at all. Just feed the killer their points and entertainment. So on both ends it sucks, but currently the only way to counteract all that is to just go "meh... next round might be better" until you finally do get to enjoy a round that day.
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You are not supposed to win every game. That’s the reality of things. I didn’t imply unbreakable is bad or anything, I mentioned it cause it’s a counter measure to a lot of the complaints. I am not making things up, there’s 3 decent competitive DBD leagues and in all of them, camping is not only allowed and enforced, is needed to have a chance.
If you aspire to win, you have to put in the work and I’m sorry if you lose but it means your team was not focused on winning or you had a good killer which ultimately, makes it fun.
Answering your MMR question, on my main killer I get basically full 100P survivors and it’s incredibly hard, stressful and thrilling, winning games, yet I wouldn’t have it any other way, cause in the end of the match even if I won or I lost, we all had fun and the thrill that has made this game so successful.
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You are entitled to your opinion, as is everyone. Survivors are the weaker role, not stronger. Every kind of evidence supports this. That being said, it is not a bad thing. With this asymmetrical style of game and the horror elements within it, along with needing incentive to play the Killer role over since it doesn't have a kill with friends option, the game should be leaned more towards killers, which it currently is. The problem is that if you want people to be okay with losing more often than they win, they need to be having fun while doing it. While fun is subjective, the opinions expresed by the majoirty can help give an insight into what the best course of action is. Like when majoity agreed that old MFT was too strong. Or how the majoirty agreed that old DS was too strong. Just like how majority of survivors have usually and still currently voice concerns over tunneling, camping, and slugging. These strategies are effective because they exploit specific weaknesses in survivor mechanics, which are frustrating precisely because survivors often lack reliable ways to counter them. There are perks that can help, but none are currently strong enough to deterr these tactics from being common (hence why more mechanics and perks trying to deterr these tactics are being implemented), and being forced to equip something to counter something base-kit for the other "side" can be frustrating and feel both limiting and unfair.
I think survivors losing more often is a good thing, because killers should be stronger. But it's how survivors lose that can be improved. It's okay to want improvements. Killers not long ago also wanted improvements because they were struggling and not having fun with the game, they weren't enjoying their role and their concerns were thankfully listened to and the game was heavily adjusted and is now in their favor, which is a good thing. It's good that they can enjoy the role gain. And in the same way, it's okay for survivors to also want improvements too.
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Well said. This is why Dwight is the leader.
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Surprised Dead Hard, Resilience and WoO didn't make the post.
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First, slugging and tunneling are strategies that are allowed within the game. There is no rules saying you can't do this to any extent. However it's something that is completely unfun to go against and sometimes even play. Sure, tunneling at that infamous max high mmr might be necessary. Doing that at lower mmr isn't necessary. Usually means there is a skill issue somewhere (more likeley in multiple places), and there are 4 voices against 1.
Overall. Play how you want to play. Just understand most people will be frustrated with you if you try to play in a sweaty manner on either side.
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People have a right to complain about anything they want, especially playstyles held by the other side. Same with complaints about SWF, altruism, voice call, gen rushing, etc. They paid for it, this is a forum to discuss it, if they don't enjoy something why should they not talk about it just because it triggers you?
If you allow yourself a moment to consider reality, many of these complaints (99%) come from players who are not playing in 4 competitive survivors vs 1 killer match. Sure, these strategies are needed in competitive, but that's not what we are discussing, and the survivors complaining are not signing up for competitive games. That is the complaint. You can feel free to disagree or mention balance, but you cannot tell them what to complain about or enjoy. These complaints are coming from average players tired of being stomped because their opponents are playing nasty and they don't have a chance.
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I feel like I’m not making myself clear here and the point is being deterred from the point I wanted to make.
I mentioned competitive because it’s the evidence that every survivor team has the tools (perks, skills and add ons) to make the killer life a nightmare. That’s how it is.
The main problem with online games (and their best attribute) is that they are in fact social games and you depend on a group not only yourself to perform.
Considering how it goes, when you play survivor you get a higher chance of having people who are just messing around, perhaps just doing a challenge or just trying to be funny and such. When you queue as killer, you are alone and you depend only in yourself to aim for the win.
There’s not an innate biased unbalance towards making killers win, in essence, the ones that have it easier to win are survivors IF they aim for that. Everyone has the choice to play the way they want but that does not mean that they should nerf killers because you need to win because you keep having bad luck on teammates or you are not making yourself better or even aiming to win a match. We all like to win and really sometimes I do get annoyed by over friendly killers who don’t do anything. Sure, I’ll appreciate a display of mercy here and then and some degree of silliness but it seems that you all want that to be the norm and when you don’t get it, boom, you become toxic and want to nerf every possibility the killer has.
Maybe you all don’t play killer or haven’t faced a group of good survivors. It’s tough, you need to be on your A game to have a chance. Slugging is valid if you aiming to win, with some perks is actually the only chance you get, (cough unhookable survivors), tunneling sometimes is needed. It is and I been that survivor that gets deleted during the first 5 mins of the match and I can understand why I was a chance for the killer to win.
High MMR and high rating is inclined to survivors. That’s what the game at its core it’s programmed to be, yet, thanks to certain aspects, matchmaking and general posture of players during a match, killers tend to do slightly better considering the WHOLE ocean of players. But that doesn’t mean they need to keep nerfing every strategy for killers, it is already super frustrating at times aiming for that 4K.
Play to win and you will win most matches. As simple as that. If you are lucky and you get 1,2 or 3 people who want the same, you will win the match. There’s no way to win versus a team that is doing objectives every second and aiming to win. There isn’t really, so, altering more and more and making killers weaker and weaker will only make it worst.
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game is only survivor sided if they are playing on equal grounds with the killer. that is rarely the case.
devs do a smart thing by keeping a compromise.
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The best killer in the world, let’s say Zaka for example, on equal ground has to:
Chase 1 survivor for 2 minutes or so to get a hook, in the meantime he lost 2 gens and about to lose a third one. He has to camp the hook till at least second stage, survivors move to rescue, he slugs one if he is lucky and he has to go into chase again, he finally kills one, and by that time there’s 1 (very rarely 2 gens up) and you are talking about the best killer player in the world. Mind you, with the advantage of not allowing a survivor to unhook himself. He then has to slug till he gets a chance to win or lose the match. That’s 90% of every competitive game.
That sounds like a core design fault killer biased?2 -
Ok, everyday there’s dozens of posts crying about tunneling or slugging and such. Let me try to help you understand something: That’s the idea of the game. It’s supposed to be hard to survive, that’s the thrill of the game.The problem with tunneling and slugging is that they are boring. In a tunneling scenario you are either the tunneled target, which means you play a game, or you slam gens and do some body blocking of the killer.
In slugging, if we're talking about full game slugging (part of the problem with slugging discussions is it means a ton of different things), you're just lying on the ground waiting for the game to end.
You can discuss the merits of the game being hard for survivors all you want, I don't disagree, but the killer has incredible easy strategies that require incredibly little skill that can make the game very boring.
If people played to win as survivors, it would be at least a 70-30 survivor win rate.I played a lot of sports when I was younger. If I just got to discount every game with a bad teammate, someone who wasn't as intense as I was, or not as skilled, I'd have a great winning percentage as well.
But you can't just ignore the issue that part of teams is people of different skill levels because that's part of team games.
Have you seen competitive games? Every single game the killer has to slug, tunnel and camp hook and most of the times he gets a 2k, with all gens completed in 5 minutes.I wish competitive games were that quick.
The last three matches of the All Hallows League (DBD League) that have been posted to YouTube involved 14 games
Times: 11:30, 7:00, 8:30, 9:45, 6:00, 7:30, 17:00, 14:00, 7:30. 9:30, 12:00, 13:00, 10:00, 11:30. And the shortest of those games, the 6:00, was a 4k.
Answering your MMR question, on my main killer I get basically full 100P survivorsEither my killer MMR is higher than I think it is, or this is not nearly as rare as some people make it out to be.
High MMR and high rating is inclined to survivors. That’s what the game at its core it’s programmed to be, yet, thanks to certain aspects, matchmaking and general posture of players during a match, killers tend to do slightly better considering the WHOLE ocean of players.This is not backed up by their stats which they've released for high MMR.
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Now correct us if we're wrong here, but your of the opinion that should a group of "good" survivors want to win and actually go for it that theres nothing killers can do to win themselves?
Well first off thats a nope right there. You said it yourself, play to win and you win most matches. This applies to the killers too.
Then your forgetting a very crucial part here. Dbd is what many call a game and many people play games for fun. Those strategies getting weaker and weaker, what were they? Camping the hooks to keep trading survivors like a carousel at best to effectively not letting a player actually play the game at worst, 3-gen camps to stall the game to oblivion, tunneling survivors at the beginning of a trial till they're eliminated with pittance for points and depending on skill level barely any time to play, stacking slowdown after slowdown after slowdown while doing one of the previous, trying slug each and every survivor right out the (metaphorical) gate…gosh these are loads of fun for survivors. Now we havent been paying to much attention (sans the new perks and puppy) so if we did miss something please let us know.
Sometimes these things are called for we agree, but usually in a moderation or lesser form (ex: slugging a survivor under a pallet vs slugging a survivor next to a wall in the middle of proverbial nowhere or tunneling someone whos unhooked infront of you vs going strait back for the unhook when you were chasing another injured survivor) and what we've noticed over our long time here is that people abuse the hell outta everything which the devs have to then step in and figure out the lesser evil between the 2 warring tribes while the third is left in the aftermath trying to adapt.
We're also tired of all the complaining, but theres 2 sides to the coin and everyones got something to pick at.
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….Wait why would the best killer need to camp till second stage instead of actually hindering the rest of the survivors? What the heck kinda play is that?
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Things like Reassurance and Off the Record are banned in comp, which makes camping much stronger, but people tend to just ignore that when using comp as an example.
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I think the feedback loop of tryhards on both sides attempting to one up each other is killing the enjoyment of the game for the majority of players in what is probably a fairly casual player base. No, it's not supposed to be easy to Survive, but it's also not supposed to be impossible either (and the latter is how my Survivor games have been feeling recently).
So sure, camp, tunnel, slug, bring the strongest builds for the strongest Killers you can think of to every trial. Just realise that 95% of your opponents will fold like a deck chair and have a real miserable time facing you. I honestly don't think this game is designed around ultra competitive play.
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Pretty sure they are talking about tournament play. Which the game is not designed around.
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You're basically saying that, played correctly, you can win as killer.
In these competitive tournaments, killers are still winning about 60% of the time.
And before we even touch on "but comp has limits", there are absolutely tournaments that have no restrictions, and killers are still on top. The numbers here do not support this narrative you're pushing that killer is the weakest role somehow.
Killers win streaks are also insanely high. "Weak, M1 killers" like trapper or clown have win streaks around 280 for trapper, and clown was about 800 iirc. Blight has the record of almost 2000 games. You know what the win streak is for survivor? Maybe 200 iirc. That's a full, 4-man, comp team SWF trying to win every game with every tool available to them.
Survivor SWF isn't some unbeatable, impossible challenge for killers. This post reads like it's 2020 (seriously, keys? They removed that like 2 years ago).
If you really think that survivor is impossible to lose, go play it. Post your vod of your win streak where you can't ever lose a match.
I won't wait.
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I didn’t say is impossible to lose as survivor, I’m saying if it’s a group of 4 survivors playing to win, they have a very very good chance of winning, more so than the killer.
I am not saying: Make the game easier for killers, that’s the perception of people wanting to challenge my post decide, which isn’t.I am trying to avoid bringing more and more nerfs because people keep complaining that killers kill them. They brought now a “trade hook state” with a survivor on hook. They nerfed many killers which none of them is actually considered S tier by any means in this last patch, and everyday there’s many posts complaining that sluggin is bad and we should feel ashamed of slugging a survivor in order to get a 4K.
The “data” we have is that killers win 60% of the time, that’s enough for most to suggest we need to bring more nerfs to killers, when in reality is just that when 4 people of different skill are matched together (which is the majority of matches played) they only win 40% of the time.
The sentiment im trying to bring here, is that the game feels ok as it is, and adding more and more ways for people not to feel bad for not escaping is detrimental to the essence of the game.
One of the solutions I suggested (cause people claim that is not fun waiting on the ground to bleed out if you get slugged towards the end of the match) was that there could be an option to risk getting up at a 4% chance or bleeding out, that would give you a chance to opt out while keeping your BP without DCing.
But saying that they should totally make it impossible to “tunnel” or slug survivors is detrimental to the game.2 -
- With this post I feel like I'm back in 2020. Really anyone complaining about keys? in 2024???
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"It's supposed to be hard to survive, that the thrill of the game."
that statement and "hard" and "not miserable" aren't mutually exclusive. However, atm, for the majority of people, "hard" does equal "miserable".
And that's what the constant complaints, the constant rants, the constant dcs, the constant 4% and the constant throwing underline. People don't do that because it's "hard". But because it's miserable.
Ignoring that and going "git gut - that's supposed to be how it is" - or really just "that's the point so enjoy what you get" misses the root cause entirely.
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A few years ago, there were players who believed the game “felt ok” when killers were at their weakest. Does that mean we should revert back to that state? I don’t think so, and I suspect you would agree. The problem is, every reliable source of evidence we have contradicts what you’re saying. So, if we ignore statistics gathered from thousands of matches worldwide, what would you suggest we use as the benchmark for balance?
If the standard is purely personal experience, then we have to consider everyone’s personal experiences—not just yours. When we do that, we see how certain tactics, perks, and killers are problematic for many players. But you seem to dismiss these as non-issues and suggest that complaints should be ignored. So, if we’re discarding both statistics and the majority’s feedback, then what’s left? If the answer is ‘nothing,’ that’s not a solution—it’s a way to destroy the game. Freddy would never get needed buffs, bugs and exploits would stay unfixed, and PTBs might as well not exist. Without a basis for adjustments, we simply won’t have a game for long.
Yes, it’s possible to win as a survivor if everyone is trying, just as it’s possible to lose if everyone is trying. It’s possible for the best player in the match to die. It’s possible to be the better killer and still lose. But there’s a difference between possible and probable. A 5% chance is technically a chance, but is that worth playing for or enjoyable? Would you gamble on those odds? Luckily it’s a bigger chance, a 40%, but that means that people need to play a role that they are inherently designed to lose more than they win. Even at top MMR—the top 5% of players worldwide full 4-man SWFs survive less than half their matches. Saying that any chance should be good enough isn’t realistic, and you could make that same argument for killers as well.
So I’d genuinely like to know: if we can’t use statistics for balance, and we can’t use majority feedback, what should we listen to?
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"The game is incredibly survivor sided."
Wake up babe, 2018 has long been over.
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That’s the idea of the game. It’s supposed to be hard to survive, that’s the thrill of the game.
The game is incredibly survivor sided.
You cannot have those two statements back to back. You either believe the game's supposed to be hard to survive, and therefore believe the game is killer sided, or believe the game is incredibly survivor sided, and therefore that it's not supposed to be that hard to survive.
Have you seen competitive games? Every single game the killer has to slug, tunnel and camp hook and most of the times he gets a 2k, with all gens completed in 5 minutes.
I'm begging people to understand that the game they play when they sit in front of their computer after coming back from studying, working or having a hard day of pleasuring themselves after being unemployed for 6 years is not the same in any way, shape or form to a group of trained people specifically on the intricacies of this game.
You, Dude McDuderson, the couple of hours you decide to sit down and play the game, are facing on the daily:
- Luwucie-chan, who's blasting Barbie Girl on her cat headphones while she streams the game and plays Smash or Pass with the killers she faces.
- Captain Shityourpants, who's having a blast playing Seagull Steve.
- Hex: Cuse Me, who is just playing Feng because the bunny ears' physics are hilarious to them.
- xX.BlackDeath.Xx, who's probably younger than the minimum age requirement to play this game, and is having an aneurysm everytime they see the other 3 do literally anything that's not a gen and will most likely sell out any of them to the killer if they so much as catch a glimpse of one of them hiding in a locker, even if it costs them the entire match.
And sometimes, just sometimes, you're facing a premade of 4 that follows you around with Head On and flashbang just to ruin your day, whether they win or not.
You are not, under any circumstances, facing tournament-level players every single match, because you yourself are not a tournament-trained player. Sometimes you just lose matches, either because you misplayed or because someone else outplayed you, and because 70% kill rate just doesn't equal 100% win rate, as much as you'd like that to be the case.
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The Devs remove every Killer complaint. Dead Hard, Made For This, Prove Thyself, Adrenaline. Killer still think they have a valid reason to Tunnel or Camp. Don't you notice majority of complaint is game quality and not about Killer or Perks?
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Getting tunneled and camped out is not fun; hence the complaints.
Killers should be buffed in other ways that do not feel cheap to go against. Every killer from now on should give survivors secondary objectives like Pig, Onryo, Pinhead, Alien, etc. to help add another dynamic to gameplay that waste survivors time and give them something else to worry about. Everyone I listed above is fun to go against when they play survivors straight up. When Pinhead came out with the Pento/Plaything Meta, he dominated. As hard as that was, I enjoyed the challenge (like you mentioned earlier) of trying to beat that build. My solo que teammates kept ragequitting and letting go on hook. I hated Pinhead’s guts but I did not complain- despite escaping from him 1 out of 10 times.
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Of those you mentioned, only Alien is considered decent tier. Onryo is a joke and needs buffs. Giving killers secondary objectives because there´s a fault in the design to escape is not a solution. Without slugging 4ks are a coin toss. Without tunneling, the game is incredibly hard to win. AGAIN I DO NOT ADVOCATE FOR BUFFING KILLERS. I am trying to provide an insight on why sometimes these kind of strategies are needed. Everyday there is a post, "Slug is bad, tunneling is bad". I think you all forget I also play as survivor and I have also experienced such games, yet I dont think the solution is just assume that every killer is busted and we need to nerf them to the ground.
NOT EVERY SINGLE GAME IS A SLUG FEST. Just as not every game is a nightmare versus a pro killer.
Somebody mentioned competitve where killers tend to win more and thats not the case, the most common result is a draw, and in all 3 leagues of competitive DBD, slugging and camping hook is not only allowed, is needed to win as killer. In those games, where survivors are trying to win, they had to implement a rule where camping is allowed, otherwise the killer would never win.
I think that creating a mechanic where a downed survivor has a 4% chance to stand up or bleed out would make it faster if you allready lost the game WHILE also keeping your BP and avoiding people to just DC before the match ends.
I just dont want more nerfs. I think that most killers mains would agree that a lot of times facing a group of good survivors is not even fun, is just stressful.
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In my opinion, comp DBD is meaningless.
It is external, not experienced by the vast majority of people who play this game and it has several restrictions that a regular match does not have.
I believe it shouldn't even be mentioned, let alone considered, when discussing the actual balance of the game.
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Your not really helping the case then.
Without slugging 4ks are a coin toss. Without tunneling, the game is incredibly hard to win. AGAIN I DO NOT ADVOCATE FOR BUFFING KILLERS.
What's wrong with a coin toss? We're assuming in this scenario that you gotten 2 dead and a 3rd at your mercy. What's wrong with leaving a non annoying one a luck based chance to escape? What's wrong with going the hard way if you feel like showing some empathy for the other side or simply for the challenge. After all of you end up relying on tunneling your going to hit a wall. Meanwhile the lack of empathy will cause the complaints to grow more. Yes we're aware they'll never truly go away but it's not going to help put out the fire by feeding it. And this third sentence makes it seem your just complaining about complaining... which to be fair is understandable but it doesn't help the "no more nerfs" case you want.
I think you all forget I also play as survivor and I have also experienced such games, yet I dont think the solution is just assume that every killer is busted and we need to nerf them to the ground.
To be fair to everyone, we don't think anyone knows anything about you. For all they know you could be fully one side while saying all this. We don't particularly care but throwing that out there.
"competitve"
We only put that there because we don't understand what the small "competitive" scene has to do with the "average" ocean sized crowd. This maybe a personal thing but we consider "comp" a joke as apparently many have restrictions that aren't in the "wild". Like seriously, they added a "rule" to allow camping when in the wild it's fair game by default?
I think that creating a mechanic where a downed survivor has a 4% chance to stand up or bleed out would make it faster if you allready lost the game WHILE also keeping your BP and avoiding people to just DC before the match ends.
While we think it would be amusing, it probably won't end well. We would love to see it tested though. This also doesn't help the "no more nerfs" case though.
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Thank you 👏
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The nerfs are in place so it´s basically an uphill battle against you all I guess. Its borderline comical saying that competitive is not important, those players are basically proving of what each player is capable off, providing with real insight on why certain aspects are unbalanced and pretty much pointing you in the right direction. (Maybe thats why the leagues are run by players?)
When you have the best Killer players in the planet HAVING to use such strategies to win, that might tell you something about the state of the game. (Which imo, is fine as it is). That should bring up that "Empathy" and understand that the tools to win as survivors are in place and not just feel entiltled to demmand butchering 50% of the game.
I am trying to stop the posture of thinking the game should give even more tools to survivors to win because they feel bad for a lost game.
I am not FEEDING the idea that slugging or tunneling, I am not advocating that that is the way it SHOULD be played, I am saying it is PART of the game and it is needed sometimes, and just because it feels bad being tunneled or being on the ground, that doesnt mean we should nerf every strategy killers come up with to try to win.
Post edited by Vishlumbra on2 -
No problem, my friends!
You've said it all. Comp DBD is basically a joke.
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In those games, where survivors are trying to win, they had to implement a rule where camping is allowed, otherwise the killer would never win.When people say this I feel like they don't actually realize what is happening in comp.
The killer never wins in comp. The survivors never win in comp. All killers could be perkless M1 Freddy and comp would still be balanced because both sides get a turn as killer. The game is decided by comparing the two matches. A team wins the match, not the killer or survivor.
Comp rules are designed to play the game that the comp players consider the most skillful (taking out a lot of the RNG elements).
Not to mention they aren't even playing for kills, they are playing for hooks. An 8 hook game with no kills is a better result than two kills via six hooks.
Somebody mentioned competitve where killers tend to win more and thats not the case, the most common result is a drawIf you have a stat for that I'd love to see it. Even with the different win conditions, I don't think a 2k is the most common result.
I think that most killers mains would agree that a lot of times facing a group of good survivors is not even fun, is just stressful.I do try to resist labeling people who prefer the killer role, but statements like this make it seem like killer mains just want the easy win.
When you have the best Killer players in the planet HAVING to use such strategies to win, that might tell you something about the state of the game. (Which imo, is fine as it is).But this is against the best survivors on the planet. We've seen what happens when comp killers (or even non-comp killers) employ these strategies in high MMR pubs (massive win streaks).
As others have mentioned, high MMR is not the same as comp. Even as a high MMR killer you might never face a comp squad as they tend to practice amongst themselves. Hitting a 4 man SWF that is not only in nonstop communication about the game but also has selected themselves based not on social arrangements but for their skill at the game is incredibly rare.
On top of that, you're ignoring the advantages survivors have in comp, namely that they know the killer they are going to face.
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Agreed.
The game is mostly played by casual players, not by people who make money doing it. Tunneling, camping, and getting slugged for 4k can make the a person playing survivor wonder why they even play the match.
The game should be enjoyable for the survivor and killer players, even if they lose the match, and the existence of 'strategies' that can make the game feel not worth playing suggests we need tweaks to the game design.
Also agree that too many people talk about how survivors or killers are asking for something. I wonder how much of the player base actually plays just one role 90% of the time or more?
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I really dont see why my post has becomed a battle against comp, or killers or trying to protect survivors. I am advocating for leaving the game as it is without implementing more nerfs.
It really makes no sense the arguments you are all giving, mainly because you claim is a matter of MMR and that the game is balanced and not survivor biased because of how some people chose to play. If anyone with higher skill claims or proves something and you all assume he is always wrong and that shouldnt apply to the "real" game, how come EVERY SINGLE TIER LIST OF KILLERS ranks nurse, blight and hillbilly top spot. Have you faced a normal nurse? They are terrible. Same could be said of a bad billy or blight, yet those lists are based on a good skill and performance from above avarage players, how come when it comes to the macro game, that goes out of the window and you all just try to demerit every argument I give. Good survivors are the top tier, not killers. I want survivors nerfed? NO. I want killers BUFFED? NO (At least on a macro level, a few of them could use some buffs, namely Freddy, Onryo, Trapper etc).
I am not fighting against anyone, I am not the one that makes dozens of posts every single day crying about slugging or camping or tunneling, I am trying to make people understand that those are needed strategies. Dont you think there are toxic survivor strategies? Mainly is a fault at design but have you ever faced an unhookable group of survivors, with map offering camping a gen at a top floor? Making hooks invisible, boil over, no mitter etc? If you dont slug they would win 100%. What we doing about those? Should we nerf those perks because it feels bad for the killer? No. It is fine.
I think what we all should be asking for is update for certain killers that are outdated and weak. Asking for real updates to killer powers instead of moving a few numbers (Cough Ghostface), more fun elements to survivor gameplay, new posibilities or maps, good new content, not just judging every single killer as the same and claiming they HAVE to stop the slugging and tunneling. If those were to dissapear, they would have to actually invest a lot of time balancing killers to have better chances of winning.
Btw stats say that with good perks, survivors have a high 35%-40% chance of surviving, in order to tie a game, you have to beat those odds twice. If you aspire to win as killer three times. Can’t really base everything on killers win 60% survivors 40%.
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Stop caring about winning. You say Killer is stressful but that's because you want to win. Stressed Killer are bad at the game and good Survivor rattle that confidence. Hence why Killer turn to Tunnel and Slug.
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Should every game be a clown fest then? Of course I play to win, I actually hardly slug but I do tunnel sometimes, I need it to TRY to win versus certain comps (maybe because my main is a weak killer by most standards).
Killer is stressful because you have to react, plan ahead and focus, and most “good” survivors are toxic, that doesn’t mean I am bad at the game or I am using non community approved strategies to win. I want to win, winning is fun, loosing is not that fun. My position is way more neutral than all this hate towards comp and killers. I just don’t think we need more nerfs to killers and less a macro adjustment to avoid such strategies, because in the end, let’s assume they forbid or prevent slugging or tunneling (which they kinda did recently with the new perk). What then? Someone would come up with a strategy to win as killer, it would be labeled as toxic and then we start again.
If today, magically they removed the possibility to slug and tunnel, 95% of every killer would be incapable of securing a win consistently unless the survivors wanted to give him the win.
What most survivors like is having the killer as a puppy chasing them and making sure they will escape every single game. God forbid someone brings over the killer side of things and everyone goes United hands for the poor survivors. What about my experience and my playtime? Is the killer duty to amuse you or win?
Ain’t easy balancing the game, specially having so many killers now and having such a variety of strength tiers in them, a good meta nurse or billy with good knowledge is going to be a way harder match than facing a trapper or Freddy or Onryo or Pig or all the “weaker” killers. My posture is, enjoy the game as it is because we are walking on very thin ice regarding killers, a lot of them end up feeling pointless for people because they know they are mastering a killer that is weak by design.
I had hope they would actually do something interesting with all these changes to old killers, they missed the mark by a landslide. Mayers changes and Ghostface ones are laughable and Demo change was basically implemented because of an strategy someone came up with to yes… win.
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Most players are casual, not top tier. Casual players will generally have their gaming experience ruined by things like tunneling, camping, full team slugging, and slugging for 4k. Survivors at that level have only one toxic strategy, and they know it will get them tunneled if the killer isn't very good or just gets angry: they can teabag during chase.
The fact that very top tier survivors make the game hard for very top tier killers isn't a justification for leaving in things that will make most other people regret playing their matches. This is a game design issue for both casual and high level play.
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The amount of perks, items and possibilities survivors have to rush gens force such strategies, the game has issues regarding balancing killers, making objectives harder and rewarding a different approach from killers.
If survivors played with 0 altruism, they would win wayyyyyyy more and such strategies would be long gone, because by the time you end up tunneling or camping 1, the other 3 would be sitting at 1 gen remaining with a spread gen load out, making it impossible to win for the killer. Altruism is very fun and part of the gameplay as survivor, it comes with a risk and that’s fine, just as slugging, camping or tunneling comes at a risk for the killer.
Imagine if they actually removed tunneling and slugging and camping hooks. How you balance that? Considering the way they “buff” killers, proven by the latest patch notes that make absolutely nothing to solve the issues of the current meta.
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Maybe because you brought up comp? It would go a long way to explain it. You also referenced the comp scene for balance reasons (ie: these things shouldn't be nerfed because in comp they're needed to "win". Paraphrased of course but you get the point.) which probably doesn't help. Ohh also:
Your indirectly claiming comp maters more and saying they're the best of the best while ignoring the pitfalls of comp and the inherent RNG and chaos of the average wild match.
As we said in our last post, your not making strong arguments for your case.
Those three hold the top spots in tier list cause first: those are opinions of the Creator of said lists. Second because while we shouldn't count explicitly bad players, an average Billy or blight will still do very well against an average team.
You keep saying they're needed but you refuse to address how players are explicitly using said strategies to make playing survivor worse. Of course there's toxic survivor strategies but there are ways to practically negate a majority of them as killer while survivors can only weaken them, especially when there's skill gaps common in the wild. This doesn't make them ok but ATM killers can effectively make sure survivors play very very little. Side note how are you getting invisible hooks?
Btw stats say that with good perks, survivors have a high 35%-40% chance of surviving, in order to tie a game, you have to beat those odds twice.
Can you please show us those stats?
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I agree with what you saying to a point. It SHOULD feel good and like an accomplishment to be a relatively helpless survivor against a powerful killer, but but but…being slugged, camped, and tunneled simply isn't fun. Of course, it can be easy to accidentally tunnel (happening to find the same survivor twice in a row…just bad luck sometimes). My ideal games are everyone on death hook with 1 gen left…then everyone is generally locking in hard, usually with a couple dying and a couple escaping. Satisfying game either way.
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I mention comp because it would be the standard on how to play the game to win. Therefore giving an insight on what is needed to do so considering the current state of the game.
Forget about comp, imagine a regular match with good decent players. After the first chase, 2 or 3 of the objectives the killer needs to protect are gone, it doesn’t matter what he does. Again we are assuming survivors that are not messing around or clowning, they spawn and go into a gen, which is in most cases what happens. The player that went into chase is capable of dropping pallets, he is not a god of looping, just a normal player that is running windows of opportunity (most used perk in the game).
Currently, for killers to win (unless they have incredibly strong abilities like nurse and the knowledge to actually use those abilities correctly) you depend on survivor choices to aim for the win. If people neglect the person on hook, they will finish the gens sacrificing 1 but winning the match.
There is a reason why slow down perks are needed in most if not all killers and even with those, if you are playing a not so strong killer, you have to sacrifice fun perks or even a variety of perks to have a fighting chance. By design something is off.
And for the 100th time, I don’t want buffs to either side, I want people to understand that the reason these strategies they consider toxic exist, is because of their own choices during games, not because one side is incredibly stronger than the other.
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Here you said exactly the main point. 'By design, something is off.'
Nobody is doing anything that justifies tunneling someone, with the exception of people taunting the killer. Tunneling is not fun for the targeted person in any way and prevents them from playing the game except to just be chased. That 'strategy' makes the experience bad for most players who get tunneled. If tunneling is actually needed to win matches, the game is designed in a way that encourages players to treat other players poorly.
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Is your position that because tunneling and slugging is “required” in comp scenes (required is debatable but for the sake of trying to find common ground let’s say it is) that people need to stop “crying” about these tactics because they are “required” in comp and therefore nerfs are not needed or justified?
You claim that because these tactics “need to exist for competitive play” that therefore casual players simply need to accept them and to have concerns or frustrations when facing competitive tactics in a casual setting is unreasonable —But those that are engaging in competitive tactics against causal opponents in a casual setting are not unreasonable. I am struggling to follow this logic and I hope you can clarify it for me so that I can better understand your position.4 -
Those tactics are 99.9% of every competitive game, maybe that’s why it has never been that successful in a viewer / audience way.
I am saying that just asking for nerfs to such tactics, without visiting the core design of the game, would destroy the killer experience, because there’s plenty of possibilities to win as it is for survivors. Killers are not created equal and you can’t expect everyone to always have the best possible experience while playing, if you die fast people will cry about it, if they wrecked the killer, they will say to fix the MMR or that it was boring as hell etc.
I am saying that if we are suggesting eliminating current meta tactics for killers, we have to talk about creating a healthy balance and visit killers powers and current state of hooks, generators etc.
I don’t think there’s a single killer main that sits at home trying to destroy the experience of survivors, they are forced to follow what’s proven to work in current state of the game.
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A side note, if you don't quote people then you're effectively addressing the crowd. If you want to do so that's fine but it does make it hard to figure out what specifically your addressing.
We do get matches against them but we're also aware that the first gen or two doesn't matter as much as the 4th and 5th. Especially depending on what gen got done and how many resources we burnt in that time. As a second aside, off meta things such as blindness aflictors can immediately change a survivors "skill".
Currently, for killers to win
This paragraph we just disagree with. We have managed to win in the past without the strategies with a variety of killers against all types of survivors. We (as a trio) may be a rusty knife now but if we bother to sharpen ourselves we can do it again. It's not impossible for killers to win without reporting to these, just harder. Same goes for the paragraph below it.
And for the 100th time
We don't think we (Rulebreaker) have said anything about you wanting to buff a side. What we have said is that your arguments are weak and not aimed at what you want.
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I agree with a lot of this actually :)
Having said that, I think player experience is the most important thing by far. Even more than balance, if people can have fun both winning and losing, that's what makes the game good.
There might even need to be MMR dependent balancing. The game is very killer sided at low MMR, balances out in mid MMR ranges, and becomes somewhat survivor sided at higher MMR.
Taking away tunneling and then buffing killers much could make the game unbearable for new players and DBD would eventually fade off into the fog because not enough new players join. But in principle, nerfing tunneling, camping, etc. and giving some small killer buffs in exchange should balance out by shifting killers not using those tactics to higher MMR.
Maybe the lowest MMR can have a 'kiddy pool' set of mechanics where killers are slightly weaker, and everyone else sees a nerf to tunneling, camping, and slugging for 4k along with a small increase in killer stats? I have a feeling my idea would go wrong still since matchmaking prioritizes speed in addition to MMR, but I'm just thinking 'out loud'.
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