All the people complaining about killers running full gens slowdown builds watch this please
This is a video of a Xeno (aka a killer with a very strong antiloop power) running a full chase build (supposed to make said antiloop even stronger) getting absolutely obliterated by survivors doing 5 gens in less than 3 minutes. And then people wonder why are killers inclined to run full slowdown builds even on top tier killers ?
Seriously, at this point only average survivor mains can claim that "good killers don't need gen slowdown perks" cause they want to have easier games against them, but the gaslighting has got to stop at some point.
Comments
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Cherry picking one video to match your confirmation bias.
You start with talking about people complaining about killers running four slowdown, then pivot to "good killers don't need gen slowdown." There's a massive leap in argument there.
Unless you're running Myers or Freddy, four slowdown is too much.
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But we can find videos of killers destroying survivors with a variety of builds, and vice-versa.
This doesn't really prove anything.
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Not even 4 gen perks would've changed the outcome of that match. I'm pretty sure there were some hacks going on, but a legit team would probably be only 30 seconds slower than what we saw, just using gen speed builds. But this is why I say that even bad survivors can beat good killers now. Every time you have a favorable chase with them, they just go down in like 20 seconds. But it literally doesn't matter, as long as they know doing gens = win.
I know some people are gonna say, "He misplayed so much." What was he to do differently? Know exactly where they were at all times, and hope they didn't know how to loop? The match was over so fast, there's almost no room for hindsight. Or some would say he should've used a good build instead of a pure chase one. So, if I'm getting this right, a killer should lose 5 gens in ≤5 minutes because they choose one build instead of another? It's silly.
It's beyond parody, the level people expect killers to perform at. It's not even physically possible. All people seem to do is take the cases of clueless solos getting destroyed, and use that to justify killers experiencing the inverse. I agree with Tru3, that the game's never been this sweaty for killer, for worse results than ever. The only reason every single high level match, and even mid-level match, isn't like this one is because of MMR. The MMR is built to deceive you, because it forces bad survivors in with the good ones, against a killer who's actually trying.
People don't look at the grand scheme of things enough, or aren't humble enough to say, "We lost to that killer because our team sucked." I don't care if you say that everyone on the team sucked except you, because I've been there so I'll believe you on that. But it's not as if all these killers we never see at high level, Wraith, Freddy, Pig, Ghost Face, Knight, are suddenly just dominating survivors off their own ability alone. A good swf would beat them 9/10 if not 10/10 times, 4-man and all. I'm not gonna go into detail, but swf is the only group that reaps the benefit of all these survivor changes, because they've never been nerfed, and solo has (in that you get stuck with uncarryable teams). People framing killers winning too much as a problem, but never swf or solos winning too much, is how we got here.
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Well, you used a truetalent vid, so by this forums logic your argument is invalid by default.
I wish this was a joke but this forum hates that guy for some reason that eludes me.
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There are, frankly, FAR too many generator perks that tip the game in either sides' favor and they are ALL far too strong.
But this is not evidence of much except for a cheating group. I don't think this gen speed can be or is legit.
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This game DID look like hacks were in play. It was like people were teleporting to the next gen after finishing. I noticed someone started opening the gate immediately after last gen popped, which... is possible of course but DAMN were they time efficient.
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So, I watched this whole video, but I want to highlight something that is kinda wrong with your post in a way that stands separately from the video itself: You shift the goalposts from complaints about killers running four slowdown perks, to people saying that the killer doesn't need to run any slowdown perks. Those are different statements you'd go about defending or critiquing in different ways.
When it comes to this video being presented as evidence, there's sort of two small flaws that I want to mention, on top of the obvious flaw that this is a single video so it's hard to draw sweeping conclusions from it, and then a sort of potential third thing? It's hard to tell for that, I'll get to it in a second.
The first sort of follows on from my first point. There is a gigantic difference between a balanced and competent build that just happens to not have direct gen defence in it, and what this guy's running which is a gimmick meme build all dedicated to the same thing. There's no info here, there's only one kind of chase perk here, there's nothing that plays off Xeno's strengths as a killer, there's nothing that indicates any kind of coherent gameplan beyond the meme of watching the vault be really really fast. This build may kinda suck, that doesn't speak at all to what you can achieve with other builds that just don't have direct gen defence.
The second thing to point out is that this was a horrendous start to the match, considering this dude just wanders over to main and breaks a breakable wall before pressuring anyone and even flat out ignores survivors he found. Leaving survivors alone to do generators at the start of the match is gonna result in more progression than if they didn't.
The third point is… I'm preeetty sure that all these survivors have toolboxes? It's hard to tell because we don't see the lobby and we don't see the builds at the end of the game, but this looked like a team that was really going hard on gen progression, and flat out - gen speeds in this game are balanced even if you don't bring gen defence, but toolboxes are not. If this video proves anything, then - dependent on whether they all did have toolboxes - it proves that toolboxes are unbalanced. That, or the team were just cheating, which is possible.
My take, personally, is that a lot of stuff went wrong in this particular video. It was a meme build as opposed to a good one, the start of the match was really bad, and the survivors all had a specific tool that itself is the unbalanced thing. It's hard to really draw any conclusions just from this, but it certainly doesn't disprove the notions that builds matter but don't require gen defence specifically, and that toolboxes are unbalanced.
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Wandering around at the start of the match in order to find survivors is what literally every single killer who doesn't run Lethal does, but I get it, you need to find a straw to grasp at considering that he hasn't even missed a single tail attack or had a chase longer than 30 seconds, the killers need to be blamed for not playing like literal AIs but not a single bashing towards the same survivors who were still killing themselves on hook or didn't even set up a single turret in order to improve their chase times.
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Bad killers wander, good killers search with purpose.
It's also about what he does do as much as what he doesn't. He does go out of his way to hit a breakable wall before interacting with any survivors, he does ignore the survivors he saw to go get into a tunnel, and he does leave the tunnel exit just to go back to where he started again even though there were survivors up by the gallows.
Again, gens definitely went too fast in this video and that is 100% either cheating or dedicated toolbox builds, and either situation is bad + warrants action from the devs, but good results shouldn't be expected even if that wasn't the case because the way this guy approached the game was just fundamentally not very good. Which is fine, obviously, nobody needs to play like a robot every match, but it is relevant to the conversation.
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These were the builds the survivors were running, so no actual hacking needed when the game already gives the survivors all the necessary tools to create matches like this (and the survivors also get the courtesy for not getting shamed constantly for using such builds unlike the killers' builds counterpart).
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On previous week I was watching Hens' stream, where he with friends tried to break his streak on fastest escape and almost every game gates were opened before 3 minutes. It's absolutely insane watching how killer barely start his first chase and half of survivor's objectives are already done.
When good survivors actually try a win in public, I don't think even good Nurse can stop them from this, amount of resources, second chances and saved time they can bring into the match is ridiculous. But hey, 9 out of 10 Sable getting two tapped by Pig and put turrets in front of Xeno's exits, so game is killer sided, you know.6 -
Because he is Mr. Us vs Them
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The difference is frequency. The logistics of putting together a four man SWF dedicated to this kind of build makes it so rare that it doesn't matter. On survivor you can get a killer running four slowdowns every 2-3 games. Can gen rushing builds be OP? Sure but lets not act like they're anywhere near as common as high tier killers stacking the strongest ****.
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Looked at title.
You can find a bunch of these videos on this person's channel.
Some of them show him getting absolutely stomped, some show him absolutely stomping.
Most of the time, you see him complaining.
I don't think one particular match proves anything about slowdown. And no offence, especially not one of his. It needs a lot more to convince me than your weekly truetalent "SWF OP" - video.
Post edited by radiantHero23 on13 -
I personally dislike his ego. I agree with a lot of his opinions regarding the future of dbd.
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No surprise its a video of this person. Hes no source for DbD to rely on anymore.
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Understandable and 100% agreed, I do not like content creators with a massive ego.
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why do people ever link videos like this for evidence of anything. you can find billies winning games in 90 seconds. killer OP.
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My bad. I responded to the wrong comment. My cincerest apologies, I didn't want to confuse you.
Regarding your statement. I do agree. Most Gen perks are too game changing. On both sides. However, some form of slowdown is required on most killers due to survivors having an efficiency advantage by default (which is not utilized in a majority of matches).
I still think that it would he an interesting experiment to see, how the kill rates would look like in a week without any gen related perk.
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because he is super biased
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That is NASTY
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Checks statistics
Nope, Killer is still baby mode easy.
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Slightly above average Killer Main goes against a Team which really, really wants to win. This is the expceted outcome and it almost never happens. Most of the time this person wins his games quite easily (which is never talked about).
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the problem is that you can't run any other perks other than gen defence. The killer needs more leeway to not have to run gen defence every game. you can literally afk as killer and you'll lose at same rate as if you were playing the game without gen defence.
this is what i mean by killer impact on playing the killer is like 0 at base-kit.
no. the video is saying, killer should not run gen defence, run other variety perks. well here's issue. you run variety perks and you enter the game and lose. killer perks are suppose encourage certain play-style/empower the killer marginally but gen defence perks require you to run them to balance the base game.
you can't even make a tier list of perks in dbd for killer because every perk is like F, C-tier or D-tier for killer and gen defence perk that do anything for gens are like S-tier. that is what tru3 is trying to say when he says. Not using gen defence makes the game harder for you as killer, intentionally. It is like using Weaving spiders and No mither on survivor every game as survivor for every killer perk. a killer perk has to be like Old starstruck nurse-level to be relevant over gen defence with current balance of the game otherwise your running variety for sake variety to make game harder for yourself.
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You can. Nobody needs to run 4 Slowdown-Perks. Nobody.
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My issue is that we don't know how this same match would've ended if he had run a gen defense or any other build. The killer he chose may also make a difference. Perhaps, if he had run something else, he may have gotten a higher number of kills. Then that might just mean the survivors felt they had to run these builds, in order to fight off all those killers and builds they go against. Playing against people trying to win with all they've got has to be fought with the same.
In an ideal world all killers would be on equal levels and fun to play as and against. Sadly, I don't even know how that could be possible.
People can run whatever builds they want. I still run the old ruin and BBQ builds because I enjoy them. But trying to play in fun ways and still wanting to win a lot, just doesn't go well together in this game.
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The funniest part of all is that even with how strong the 3gen is on that map, the result would probably have been exactly the same with four gen slowdown perks.
There are always complaints about the killer addons, but survivors have no same about using syringe, styptic agent and brandnew parts in every match. Even after all the nerfs, we still have absurd situations like this one.
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I mean yeah nothing new. If survivors WANT to win they have all the tools necessary to do so and gen slowdown sometimes can only delay the inevitable with those builds. Worst part is you don't even need all that to reliably 3-4 out as long as you have some form of making the killer chase you for longer.
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Survivors will continue to cope and act like gen speeds aren’t a problem but they very much are. I posted a video where we popped all 4 gens in 4 minutes flat. And I promise I can do it 9 times out of 10. It’s very easy honestly if you bring a Gen build.
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The problem is that this is so uncommon what's even the point. Yeah, he lost against a stacked team but that can go both ways, say a 10k hour Nurse tryharding against solos doing challenges.
This is a match he probably doesn't win unless he runs some slowdown and plays a top killer but that's already common knowledge. If the opposite side is going hard then you have to as well if you wanna win.
Again though, this isn't overly common to see a group like this so there is no need to bring 4 slowdown in your average game. I've been playing since like 2018 and have seen a group this efficient exactly once and yeah, I got my ass kicked and felt helpless but I didn't blame anyone, I was simply not prepared for them and moved on.
Tru3 obviously plays a lot more then I do so he'll have seen groups like this more but how many do you think? In his many hours I'd be surprised if he has seen groups this efficient in random queue even make double digits.
Normal DBD is not some comp playground where you need to bring all meta and tryhard to win. Yeah, you might run into a team like this when you're unprepared so you lose by default but who cares? That 1in100 chance is no reason to change how one might normally play and is also hardly relevant in talks about the average match.
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My point is that so much else is wrong with this clip that I don't even think slowdown perks would've helped that much.
We have confirmation that this was a toolbox squad, which is the major thing wrong with trying to make a broad comment about balance using this as evidence. Genrush squads are extremely unbalanced, but they're also extremely rare, teams that commit this hard to just doing gens and getting out are very uncommon and not something you'd really be considering when making a build.
Then there's all the other stuff, like this being a gimmick meme build and the gameplay including a lot of mistakes, that just compound that this particular video went the way it did because of way more factors than just "he didn't have slowdown".
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He isn't a very good xeno player and he was running a meme killer build against sweaty survivor team.
Like, yeah, that's what happens.
Killers are NOT supposed to win such matchups, if they were, this game would've been unwinnable as a survivor. If you run a meme build, you should lose to people running sweaty ######### & playing to win. It's an axiom.
Not to mention this meme build is just not very well crafted. You dont need to stack 3 vault perks, you keep superior anatomy and remove other vaulting perks or you keep them and remove anatomy and use other haste / chase perks, batteries included being a must.
It's like if I were to take some goofy no mither build against 4 slowdowns sweaty artist (or any other A tier killer) and would make a post calling out people complaining about antitunnelling (or any other meta) perks and how they're a must to run in this economy.
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I feel like the issue with those gen rushing builds is how basically every perk/items survivors have for it stacks. With gen DEFENSE perks, we have anti-synergy to avoid stacking. Gens that are blocked won't regress and can't be kicked. Regressing gens can't be kicked, so things like Pop/ruin can't be used together. Survivor gen perks though have no such anti-synergy.
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I'd disagree, I think the main issue is just flat out toolboxes.
The amount of gen repair speed you can get stacking everything else without toolboxes is like, half as much as you get just from a basic toolbox. If toolboxes were ever nerfed to not be this powerful, genrushing builds would take such a gigantic hit in power that they'd practically no longer exist as we know them now.
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yeah, it's obviously a problem + just how bad the design of toolboxes is. But generally, it's a nonissue. It's just how far survivors can stack their capabilities. I myself ran into such squad, I think it was hens doing his WR and I barely won that and mostly because my build was a complete counter to theirs (they stacked no mither + deja&resi, I had thana and soma photo)
Normally it doesnt happen and when it happens such survs have a decent chance of accidentally 3 genning themselves and then finding out.
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Thing is they have been hard nerfed already. Before toolboxes lasted 2+ gens worth of charges base and wire spool added 30 charges.
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Sure, but they're obviously still a problem anyway. Things can be nerfed and still not be okay.
Also, wasn't the repair speed bonus way lower back then? That'd be more of a sidegrade, if so.
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Mate survivors complain about ANY perks being run by killer. I run lethal, BBQ, Franklins and Devour. Devour gets got in 30 seconds. everyone drops their items meaning im running just lethal bbq yet im still told im running an "OP Toxic Build"
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they have been sidegraded to be burst gen speed instead of extended gen repair speed bonus.
they did gave more value and were stronger in the long run, but current toolboxes are unmatched when you need to rapidly complete a generator which is invaluable.
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So gen defense is needed against a 4 man SWF running luck offerings and genrush builds. Okay, what exactly is your point? Do you see this every game or something? If your argument against people complaining about quad slowdown in public matches is "but what if they run into 4 man SWF running genrush builds", then you are not arguing in good faith, end of story. If these survivors had a normal spread of items and perks even this terrible start could be 4k'd since the survivors were not good at all in chase.
This doesn't even matter to the actual argument, but he did not play that well that game to begin with, he ignores 2 survivors on main and tunnels to his spawnpoint only to walk back to main again, rather than tunneling to cactus side where survivors typically spawn or chasing at main. This is why it took him 72 seconds to get his first hook, which against these builds is game losing. And against the strongest survivor stuff, you may need the strongest killer stuff.
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4-man SWF, all of them have Deja Vu and BNP. No wonder those gens flew so fast
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Do 4 man teams like this even have fun playing in this way?
I mean yeah, once you are out of beginner Killer MMR of course you need to bring some kind of gen regression or slowdown to remain competitive. But other than that, I'm not sure what else this video is meant to prove. Except perhaps to demonstrate that DBD is obviously balanced around a mostly casual player base and the expectation that both sides probably won't be playing the game like they're competing in an esports tournament.
Most of the time, I find full slowdown builds to be overkill and frankly, I don't see why anyone would want to be at an MMR where they are necessary.
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sounds like classic excuse. it is what almost every player says when watching tru3 play killer. he didn't play well and lost. tru3's mostly illustrating that not using gen defence perks is "throwing" as killer. i don't think the game is suppose to be so punishing for killer that not using an archetype of perks guarantees your loss as killer.
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I said that cause I saw people suggesting to new killers in this forum whom were asking for advice on how to improve that they don't need to use any gen slowdown perks at all as long as they don't play a low tier killer, which is why I brought it up as an utter BS advice.
Also in this specific match even 4 gen slowdown perks probably would've been enough considering how much they've nerfed it.
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So, again, to be clear:
This streamer lost because real, actual genrush builds like the one in this video are extremely unbalanced.
Separately, this streamer wouldn't have done well otherwise because his build was an extremely lopsided gimmick and he actively avoided pressuring survivors.
The first part is the part the really matters, the second part is an important thing to keep in mind when thinking about what videos to use as evidence for a claim.
This video illustrates absolutely nothing about gen defence or killer builds in general. It illustrates that genrush builds are broken. We can also use it as a springboard for discussion about what a good killer build looks like without gen defence, because what this streamer has is Not That At All, but that's separate to what the video itself actually shows.
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You can almost never win a slightly above average killer main with a team running full gen speed builds ? To me that sounds like an under average survivor main problem.
Post edited by Jock21 on3 -
Every single time the shoe is on the other foot we hear these exact same things:
- If the other team is playing to win and you aren't, don't expect to win.
- These are the strategies that are used in comp DbD, you may not like it, but this is what peak performance looks like.
- There are LiTeRaLlY tOnS oF pErKs that defend against this play style, if you didn't bring any of them, that's on you.
That's literally what is said in every. Single. Thread. About camping, tunneling, or slugging.
Could the killer have played better? Absolutely. The other team wanted the win more than a meme game. At least he got a fast match in return. Slugging to bleed out is 4 minutes alone, and only requires one petty person to have a bad day.
Go next, move on and you won't see a squad like this for months.
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They should have implemented a hard cap on progression and regression speeds years ago (and move speed, vault speed, etc).
Stacking effects is generally a problem in this game for both killers and survivors when taken to this extreme. But having a maximum cap to charges per second that can be gained or lost would fix this without really affecting players who aren't stacking this kind of build. One toolbox in a game isn't game breaking, for example, but 3 used on one gen can be.
Now, how they communicate in game to the player that they're hitting a cap is something they'd have to work out. Otherwise you have to just do math and check a wiki or something with no in game feedback that the mechanic even exists.
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Eh, while one toolbox isn't game breaking it's still overtuned. I've been the one person in a lobby with a toolbox build before, and the sheer amount of gen repair I can get done in that context just on my own is pretty questionable.
I still think the problem is toolboxes, not general stacking. Survivors could stack every single source of non-toolbox gen speed in the game and still only have a fraction of what a toolbox could give them.
Change toolboxes to not give gen speed and to give something else instead, and the problem disappears.
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He is streaming this game since the beginning & is probably in high top MMR.
Yes, he is going to be paired with survivors with same MMR level, so when he had constant 4k's and suddenly bring "chill build" he is going to be stomped by sweaty survivors, because matchmaking takes your skill and ability to kill/escape, not if you have 4 slowdowns or "chill build" in game.
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