Different views on Billy
Disclaimer: This is not asking for nerfs. This is us asking about if our own views on Billy are fair or not to try and change our minds. We are aware we are biased against him and he takes some skill {even if we don't often if ever see it} which is why we're asking for other viewpoints. [{(Let's see if we're being irrational)}]
The short version is that Billy has, at base kit, a spamable way to instant down survivors which doubles as mobility with no punishment for spamming it (infact it gets arguably better) as long as he doesn't hit something that's not a pallet, breakable wall, or survivor. Compared to other instant down killers, this seems BS to us.
Each other killer has to "work for it" in some fashion (Oni needs blood and has a timer. Bubba, Meyers, and GF need to actually get there in a timely manner with the later 2 needing to stalk survivors to "prime" the instant down). Billy meanwhile has a slightly weaker version of Oni at all times right from the start.
Billy:
- A fair wind up
- high mobility which doubles as lethality.
- Spamable. There's no effective CD other than the wind up and short little animation at the end.
- Nothing to really manage other than the bar for when you want to go and to not hit anything.
- The only punishment is if Billy hits an object other than a pallet or survivor. Said recovery is 2.7.
- Gets more speed via spamming the saw (good or not is irrelevant).
- Can break pallets and walls faster with saw.
- Has all the above from the start.
Oni:
- Can only instant down after injuring a survivor and or collecting blood after.
- The instant down comes with optional high mobility.
- Has a time limit for his power (effectively "fuel"). Can end enrage early by picking up a survivor but would need to recharge the time spent enraged. Effectively a variable CD on power.
- Announces himself when enraged
- Doesn't crash into objects during demon dash.
- Has a wind up.
- Spamable within the time limit. Short recovery on missed 1 shot hits (2 seconds).
- Can technically hit multiple survivors.
- Without full power, is effectively a m1 with slightly better tracking.
- Can break pallets and walls faster while enraged. Otherwise has to break them normally.
Bubba:
- No true mobility.
- High lethality when sawing. Can down multiple survivors in 1 go.
- Has tokens. To saw for longer bubba has to manage the tokens to get maximum distance. With no tokens he can't saw at all.
- Has a fair wind up.
- If the saw hits an object that's not a breakable or player Tantrum begins. Tantrum has a variable time but the shortest is longer than either Billy or Oni (3-8 seconds depending on factors).
- Is still lethal in tantrum but can barely move.
- Can break pallets and walls faster with the saw.
Meyers:
- Has to build up to be able to 1 shot survivors.
- Has a time limit on how long he can 1 shot. Can 1 shot multiple survivors during this time.
- No mobility.
- Has mild stealth [lower terror radius in t2] compared to the above but T3 announces itself when it's on and off.
- Can "pocket" T3.
- Has to break things normally
- Can run out of stalk on survivors if he doesn't manage who he kills and when.
GF:
- No mobility.
- Semi on demand stealth but can be kicked out of his power via his own actions or survivors.
- Can only instant down via marking a survivor.
- The exposed has a timer.
- Has to break things normally.
- Has a CD when kicked out of his power for any reason.
- Can "pocket" stalk however hurting the survivor removes stalk from them this removing the "pocket" from them.
Are we wrong somewhere here?
Comments
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I dont think there's an inherent problem with "Spammable" powers.
Sometimes it's part of the design philosophy that makes the gameplay more distinct and allows the killer to be very relentless and aggressive in chase instead of carefully calculating every step they take. The latter gameplay doesnt appeal to everyone.
Singularity f/e is the definition of a spammable power design and damned be the one who says it's a bad power design.
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Not inherently but to us that depends on what that power is. For example: Singularity is fine because it requires more "work" to pull off via set up and does not immediately put the survivors onto the dirt. But that's just our thoughts on the matter.
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I mean, it's just a different kind of input.
Billy doesn't require constant attention, but he takes immense mechanical skill to use efficiently which includes very fast reaction speed or good prediction skill to counter dodging.
His saw while being a threat in almost every loop, isn't really a guaranteed down every time and not a guaranteed hit after they've nerfed the post-saw CD recently.
5 -
That's fair, we did ask after all.
The same could be said for Oni though couldn't it? Yet as we compared above Oni has to build up for it and has a time limit when he does. None of the instant downs are guaranteed which is why it didn't factor into our thought process(es).
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I think Billy, in most ways, is the perfect killer. Lethal when someone is good at controlling him. His skill kind of moves up with survivors in my opinion. So, a new Billy vs a new survivor is probably going to learn and get better at a similar rate.
He is loopable not to a greedy point. Be too greedy and it becomes a risk on being downed. He is less efficient when lots of objects are around and becomes hindered for running into objects. Even misses can lead to survivors making a vault or pallet. There are builds on him I'm not fond of playing against but that's just me personally and there are lots of killers that way.
For the other killers, they all have much more in terms of control. Oni isn't forced to swing or collide with objects. Myers can hold t3, leave a survivor, then pop it on an unexpecting victim. As well as vault faster when in chase. Ghost face is ghost face lol. Who knows when he is even able to be broken out of stalking or not. He can move around without a tr. Though he is weaker in that a teammate can tank a hit for the person exposed, where the other killers would still land an insta down.
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I'm not sure what you mean about spammable powers, technically just about every killer can "spam"
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We'll call spam: "Repeated use with no major drawbacks". Billy can repeatedly try to saw survivors down with no downside beyond "not crashing into object". Oni can "spam" instant downs but has an hour of power, Bubba has tokens he needs to manage (he can't saw without a token) in addition to the wind up and not crashing. GF and Meyers need to build up for theirs which is an hr of power (meyers for all, gf for individual survivors). Each other killer has some noticable form of cd.
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Eh I feel like Nurse, Blight, Nemesis, Demo, chucky etc are similar level of "cooldown" not gonna deny that he is strong though
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So this is all just my own personal views.
When I think about Billy to me he is objectively better than some of the other Killers for many of the reasons you all mentioned.
When I learned to play Billy I played over 100 games using chainsaw only with speed limiter. It sounds silly but I believe what counts as his “Oni blood” is the feathering mechanic itself. I think most players have a hard time mastering the timing.
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Well yes, but Oni's power on its own is MUCH more threatening than Billy, which events it out in a way.
Oni can slide around collisions, he can change his attack direction, he charges the attack way faster and can potentially down multiple survivors (though that part rarely comes into effect).
It's like why Myers' T3 is so much weaker than Oni's or Billy - because it takes different (less) amount of skill and effort to get which also gives survivors less counterplay to it.
Billy's power takes the most skill to use, but Oni's power is easier while not weaker if not stronger, but it has to be earned through playing powerless killer, while Myers only gets oneshot and mild stat boost yet he only needs to look at survivors.
It's usually the same story with similar powers like that. One takes the most effort/skill to USE while not having any other limits to it, the other is easy/straightforward but has less potential or it is just better but has some serious downside or condition that you have to play around which balances it out until certain point.
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I agree with this, but the difference is Billy is the only one from these other 'similar level of cooldown' that's an insta down killer. This makes it much more powerful.
Not taking a side here yet, as I'd like to see how perspectives play out. But currently, Billy is pretty damn stacked when comparing others to his kit.
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The main trade off for Billy compared to other similar killers is once he has committed, he cannot correct. Hillbillys power works because he effectively loses control after his initial aim.
His power is spammable yes, but a step to the slide or a slight misaim or incorrect prediction on his part, and he is whiffing with no way to correct it... and this inability to correct it means Billy is forced to predict since it's impossible for him to react. This ensures misses happens often,and is what makes Billy so engaging for survivor.
Compare this to: -
- Oni who can flick his aim at the end of his dash to land a hit.
- Blight and Chucky who both can turn considerably at the end of their dashes.
- Nurse who can literally hit in a 180 on the end of her blink.
- Bubba who can easily change direction and create a near unavoidable dead zone in front of him off any prediction.
- Myers and Ghost Face have considerably different gameplay loops, are more loopable than Billy, but also FAR simpler to play and easier to capitalise on predictions and survivor errors, simply taking an m1 for an instant down.
The potential for Billy is really high if you play perfectly with no input mistakes and perfect prediction, but the 2 feed into each other. An incorrect prediction can easily cause you to mind game yourself and make what would have been a hit a miss, even if you input flawlessly. Similarly a perfect prediction can still regularly miss if the input is also not correct.
If he can't spam it, say by adding a cooldown, the threat of his power stops working, because he is simply too hard to hit with. Injuries are less valuable on Billy, as an inured survivor basically fights Billy as a regular m1 killer, or at no difference to how he fights with his saw.
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While we agree with the overall idea (more effort for less restrictions), we disagree with the Oni Billy comparison. To us, Billy is mildly harder than Oni while pretty much having a discount version of his power.
Billy can course correct via stopping (simply let go of the button and he stops almost on a dime)... which he then tries again, while Oni has both a dash and a close range attack. It pretty much evens out to the same thing (both are dodged the exact same way, both have similar miss CDs, and wind ups [less than a 1 second difference]) with Billy only having to worry about survivors getting to the next loop and not crashing while Oni has to worry about the next loop and his timer.
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As we stated to toystory3Monkey, he can stop very easily to course correct to simply try as many times as he wants (not always practical but it doesn't stop many). His only real worries are "am I burning to much time" and "don't crash".
For example: with nurse she also must predict survivors, however if she misses she has a fatigue and has to wait for her blinks to recharge. Billy can simply wind up, go, and should he miss he can simply stop a little away and try again from the get go. And unlike nurse, his will put you on the dirt on the first successful prediction.
We already compared Oni so:
Chucky and blight are limited by CDs and are both not insta downs.
...woops already done nurse…moving on…
Bubba doesn't have Billy's mobility while having similar weaknesses as detailed in the op.
toystory3Monkey has also went with this reasoning and we are considering how much weight it holds towards Billy.
We think your giving Billy to much credit but that might be our bias showing.
We disagree with the injury thoughts due to Billy being able to stop nearby to simply whack a survivor down, but we see a point in that it needs to be a threat. We're unsure if having, say bubbas CD, would immediately kill his threat though.
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I don't have much to say about cooldowns, mobility or skill. Not this time.
I just think Hillbilly is fun to go against. Especially before Overheat and Overdrive. OG Hillbilly was perfect.
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Fair enough but we would like to ask why so we can try and see it.
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It is mostly because of how good his original design was, and still is.
The devs understood the strength a high mobility power had, and how to balance around it. Hillbilly doesn't have a bloated kit like Wesker, doesn't render every tile useless like Xeno. His ability is powerful, but he can be looped, you're not helpless against him.
That was especially true for the OG Hillbilly during the Old DBD. The modern DBD has maps where you as a survivor has almost nothing to use, and that is a problem. But if you get a map with a decent amount of resources, I think Hillbilly is as fun as he has always been.
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I still feel like a good Billy is easier to counter than a good Blight.
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All fair, but the difference in all cases is that survivors can bait, predict and juke Billy, even out in the open... but for the other examples, in the same scenarios where they can juke Billy, they can't juke the other killers. Survivors need supporting structures to avoid taking hits.
Billy can only turn around terrain at the start of his dash, he only has specific points in the loop cycle he can actually go for hits, and it is highly telegraphed to the survivor. This is unlike Blight, Nurse and Chucky who can still turn/redirect their hit after their initial rush. Their effectively lethality therefore exists for the entire duration of their ability, rather than Billy where if he is not on the correct line after 0.75s, he misses.
This is the reason Chucky and Blight can't instant down and have a cooldown, because they can effectively turn around terrain with far more control than Billy, and at the end of their dashes they can turn on the spot and still land a hit. Nurse is similarly far superior than Billy, cause while she needs to predict, she has full control of her lunge in any direction, and can get a second blink to correct her prediction and still land a hit.
Billy has his 2.7s recovery and then has to charge up his chainsaw again form each attempt, which is often enough time to vault a window, throw a pallet or make it around terrain where Billy has to again steer around terrain to land a hit.
The simple reason why Billy gets to spam his ability is he can fire off 5 attempts and often miss 4 of them, and this isn't strange for Billy.
All the other cases, like Double Blink Nurse, Chucky S&D, Blight Dash, Oni slam, they often hit their ability nearly every time.
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Billy has had a spamable power for the last 2 years and it was never an issue. Even when overheat was still a factor, you just had to wait for the chainsaw to cool down a little before you tried again. Besides that, they toned overheat down to be completely obsolete. I only overheated when I played Driftking Billy, which is now weaker than ever (seriously, bad move BHVR).
The difference between Billy and other insta down killers is that you can dodge him fairly easy most of the time. I used to play against survivors, that would mind game and run wide to dodge. Now it seems like most players think of it as rocket science and just play in the most predictable way possible.
Overdrive is pretty much a non-factor at this point. I barely ever get to use it (takes forever to build up, which is good but dissipates very quickly, which is bad), so we are back to where the mechanic that is meant to add some complexity to the killer is basically obsolete. I cannot put into words how disappointed I am with that. I would have much rather had overdrive go up even slower but build up a bunch when you hit a survivor and pause when you carry them (just to make slugging less of an obvious choice). The reduced overdrive speed feels terrible to me as well. We are back at a point where in many situations survivors feel the illusion of a threat, while the Billy player knows that there is absolutely no way for them to get that hit, if the survivor doesn't play horribly bad.
That was what really rubbed me the wrong way with him. It always looks so close but in the back of your head you know for a fact that there is nothing you can do either way.
Oni has the advantage that he can flick at the end of a rush. That fundamentally changes the way his power can be used. I find him to be more fun than Billy at the moment. It might have something to do with me still learning Oni, which is always something provides fun for me but in many situations I prefer to play him over Billy, who has been my main for over 2 years (almost 3 years by now).
When it comes to skill expression, Billy's skill floor definitely has been reduced with the more forgiving cooldowns. This was necessary because the penalty for a missed chainsaw was excruciating. Right after the PTB, when they increased the curve time to 1.0 seconds, his skill ceiling was arguably at the highest point (except maybe for that glitch that existed where he could turn at the end of a curve and still hit a survivor). I honestly liked that. You had to learn how to manage overdrive and the extra speed made curving even harder. Now he just feels watered down. His skill ceiling was reduced again (not a good decision) and that made him feel a lot less fun to me.
I fully recognise that I am biased (how could I not after putting more 1000+ hours into this killer?) but I just want him to get back that extra skill ceiling (and Driftking Billy!) and feel fun again. If there need to be more nerfs to balance that out, then so be it. I have always been of the opinion that killers should have a relatively low skill floor, so that players can get into it and a high skill ceiling, so that players can hone their skills and show off a little (we all know how good that feels).
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THIS. Overheat was unneeded and Overdrive is just stupid. OG Billy was perfect and probably my favorite killer to go against in all DBD history. Wish they would just revert him.
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i think your missing @Rulebreaker point. his argument is that billy's lower performance ball is greater than his higher performance ball even when not accounting reliability.
in other words, avoiding a billy chainsaw out in the open for him landing a hit is higher reward for billy to succeed than all mentioned killers. it is little bit like argument if Oni's Katana as basic m1 was instant down and his power to move super fast was a bonus power-up. He'd be better than 80% of m1 killers as his weak form, not accounting his real ability.
that's kinda where billy is. he's better than 80% of the killers just by the fact that he has base-kit instant down that doesn't require any setup while being reliable hit if the player is good. His curving and his ability to play global & hit run with pallets is probably what makes him ascend as a killer into higher tier of killer. to me, it just looks a classic Killer camp hooks with instant down argument. Mobility allows you to return to hook faster hence they think that is a problem. other killer have to earn the ability to instant down and none of them except for Oni have mobility+instant down but Oni's drawback of limit duration+earning power can make camping a sub optimal choice.
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I don't think Overdrive is necessarily a bad addition to the game, but yes they should have just reverted Hillbilly back to how he was.
All they had to do was make Carburettor Tuning Guide not stack Charge time gains with The Thompson's Mix or Primer Bulb and Hillbilly would have been perfect.
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I'm trying to pick up what you're trying to say, but I'm struggling. It sounds like you're arguing against the fundamental design of Billy as an instadown killer with map mobility. If I take your Oni analogy, we're saying Billy has high mobility at all times, and then just m1s a survivor with an instadown?
That's not how Billy works, and we have over 7 years of gameplay to pull from to see that map mobility with a spammabale instadown doesnt make Billy OP... when he still had overheat, it was such a slow penalty to bulld up, it was mostly non existent and no one cared about it, and Billy was consider B tier tops.
The fact is, landing a hit with Hillbilly's chainsaw is not easy against survivors who know what they are doing, it's not the same thing as landing an m1 as you describe with your Oni example. As I've said already, his chainsaw is highly telegraphed, easy to misaim, and cannot be corrected once his direction is locked in, nor can he flick at the end of his rush, all of which makes him quite predictable and easy to dodge...
As Xernoton points out, his Overdrive gives him the boost he needs to score a number of hits he otherwise simply can't, and without Overdrive, he is simply old Billy; too difficult to land hits with reliably to be in the top flight of killers. It's his overdrive that pushed him up there and why he needed nerfs.
What you seem to not be considering is yes, Billy is dangerous with his instantdown... but once you are injured, if Billy is chasing you with his chainsaw, there is effectively no difference, and if he's not using his chainsaw, he's an m1 killer. If he M1s you, if he's trying to use teh chainsaw, the m1 hasn't really changed anything about the dynamic of the current chase. He still needs to hit you with his hard to hit chainsaw in order to down you, so his m1 hasn't really helped him much.
Rulebreakers closing assessment highlights their point:
We disagree with the injury thoughts due to Billy being able to stop nearby to simply whack a survivor down, but we see a point in that it needs to be a threat. We're unsure if having, say bubbas CD, would immediately kill his threat though.
Their issue seems to be that Billy can miss, recover fast, then just go for an m1 quickly afterwards, but I don't believe this is a problem, since this is often the case with Blight and Chucky as well, and their chance of missing their ability in the first place is way lower than Billy's is, so they have even less reason to often be able to land a hit.
This isn't a problem to my mind because Billy doesn't have the ability to win a hit and then follow up with his power to get a relatively quickand easy down like Chucky, Blight, Spirit, Dracula, etc... Billy has to hit his chainsaw for a fast down, and getting an m1 doesn't help him at all with that.
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kind of. most player are unlikely to mindgame a pointblank chainsaw hit. evidence to that was twin's rework victor where people see victor as not loopable. I don't agree but logic is same for billy chainsaw.
It's his overdrive that pushed him up there and why he needed nerfs.
what was first thing that got nerfed in billy rework? Missed cooldown add-on's. Like they don't apply to over drive and than they also nerfed %'s to be irrelevant and in 2nd iteration of nerf's, higher missed cooldown. notice that it is not overdrive that keeps getting nerfed, it's missed cooldown.
it's not the same thing as landing an m1 as you describe with your Oni example. As I've said already, his chainsaw is highly telegraphed, easy to misaim, and cannot be corrected once his direction is locked in, nor can he flick at the end of his rush, all of which makes him quite predictable and easy to dodge...
all of which doesn't exist or doesn't matter when billy is out in the open.
What you seem to not be considering is yes, Billy is dangerous with his instantdown... but once you are injured, if Billy is chasing you with his chainsaw, there is effectively no difference, and if he's not using his chainsaw, he's an m1 killer. If he M1s you, if he's trying to use teh chainsaw, the m1 hasn't really changed anything about the dynamic of the current chase. He still needs to hit you with his hard to hit chainsaw in order to down you, so his m1 hasn't really helped him much.
His chainsaw creates sunk cost fallacy in healing. you healed but you got instant downed so why i did heal, maybe i should stayed on gen.
That's not how Billy works, and we have over 7 years of gameplay to pull from to see that map mobility with a spammabale instadown doesnt make Billy OP... when he still had overheat, it was such a slow penalty to bulld up, it was mostly non existent and no one cared about it, and Billy was consider B tier tops.
because map mobility and instant down is pretty average by itself. anti-loop/ability to outplay tiles is more important however billy's map mobility and instant down allows him to strategy within killer meta strategies when his chase is decent. one of those being proxy camping→tunneling and other being slugging.
i am not saying that @Rulebreaker is right or wrong about said ideas but that largely what he thinks about billy being unfair. instant down with no preparation and mobility with instant down. if you want my opinion on it, i think billy is good power-level while Myer's/Oni/GFs being under-powered instant downs. they should get buffs.
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We'd argue that you can bait, predict and juke the others listed (sans bubba). If you do manage to dodge the likes of Chucky, Blight, and Nurse enough the survivors are rewarded via a break where they can't immediately go again or are nerfed if they do. Meanwhile Billy can miss and go again and again and many of the Billys we have seen miss about often as the others (unless its a particularly bad Billy). Bar Nurse each of those killers also needs to play around the terrain, though admittedly they have a far easier time with the closest being Oni.
Their issue seems to be that Billy can miss, recover fast, then just go for an m1 quickly afterwards, but I don't believe this is a problem, since this is often the case with Blight and Chucky as well, and their chance of missing their ability in the first place is way lower than Billy's is, so they have even less reason to often be able to land a hit.
Thats not entirely correct. Our words that were quoted are in response to "injuries don't matter to Billy". An injured survivor is just as if not more in danger because he can simply run up to you, stop, and m1 down. Like a wraith Drac Bat or spirit with out the downsides of their powers (having to uncloak and not being able to see for the later 2). It is similar to the others but since Billy is also an insta down killer healing is not very effective either but it does "force" him to try and saw instead of m1. As below:
You get our point (granted we're having a hard time trying to understand the example in the 2nd paragraph of the first quote).
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[Apologies for the delay we're busy lately]
Billy has had a spamable power pretty much forever (bar possibly when overheat was just introduced). He's always been a pain to us since we started way back but this isn't about it being a problem more of if we're fair to call Billy bs despite our bias. When overheat was in effect, it did give some form of punishment for repeatedly missing (admittedly a metric ton by average standards) which, to us, lined up with the other 1 shot killers, even if poorly since only bad Billy's ever were affected by it.
It's been repeated that you can dodge Billy easier than others but we disagree there, it's about the same as Oni. You predict and bait "Oni smash" the same as a point blank Billy but Oni is on a timer and has to prime his power with blood. Meyers and GF are effectively m1 insta downs so while harder to dodge point blank than a saw, they'd have to get there first, similar to bubba who also has no inherent mobility nor stealth like the later 2 but increased lethality with his saw.
Overdrive for us is more of an insult to us as if we can repeatedly dodge he gets "better", but that's our own thoughts on it.
As we said (or implied) Oni does have the better version but Billy's isn't that far off while also having it from the start at no effort for it like Oni does. We also have pointed that you pretty much dodge in a similar vein as Billy.
We are no in-depth expert so we'll defer to you on the history and skill expression. Being biased here's fine. It's supposed to give us different ways to look at Billy so bias away.
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Thats not entirely correct. Our words that were quoted are in response to "injuries don't matter to Billy". An injured survivor is just as if not more in danger because he can simply run up to you, stop, and m1 down.
I believe I addressed this point though, but to try again... the assertion is that Billy can reliably just stop next to a survivor and get a free m1? This I don't believe is true, and is the crux of this injured argument.
We seem to accept his chainsaw is hard to land, so it being an instantdown is justified because its hard to hit. No one has countered or challenged me on this so I assume we all agree.
The contention seems to be that once a survivor is injured Billy can go for chainsaw hits, and it he misses, he just takes an m1… well Billy if he stops in air, he has a 2.7s recovery. With both add-ons this can become 2.295s at best. If he hits terrain it's 2.5s recovery at base and with bothl add-ons can come down to 1.88s.
Demogorgon recovers in 2.25s on a missed shred and can take this down to 2.0025s with his one add-on for it. Demo can spam just as much to get next to survivors as Billy can, with no difference if he bumps terrain or not, and he recovers a whole 0.5s base and 0.2925 at best faster than Billy does on a miss.
I am aware Demo can't turn around terrain, but if whiffing for gap close was really the way to score hits reliably, this is how Demo would always play to get hits, lunge near to any tile hit or miss, then follow up with an m1... Now it is possible to get hits this way, but if it was as free as you guys describe, Demo wouldn't be so low on the killer list as he is… but that's not how it works in practise.
This recovery into an m1 is effectively where we are disagreeing, because if Billy can easily score a hit off a whiff with an m1, then yes, he is broken... but in my experience he doesn't often get that m1… and unlike Chucky, Blight, Spirit, Nurse, who can get a hit with their power quite easily to allow they easy downs when tunneling an injured survivor, Billy either has to land his saw, or get that m1.
If my contention is correct that Billy can't reliably recover off a saw whiff into an m1, Billy can't do what these other killer can do (the tap and chase down hit). This means Billy using his saw is mostly the same threat, whether you're injured or not... and if he isn't using his saw, he is an m1 killer.
If I'm still not grasping the concept, I apologise, but that's the best I can understand what we're taking about.
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I cannot stand new billy whatsoever even a mediocre billy turns any loop into a death trap if you're not feeding him pallets. His power has near 0 cooldown, some of the best mobility, amazing pallet break, and insanely strong zoning. Atp if you're a competent billy bamboozle isn't even needed you can just curve the majority of tiles with his new speed/initial turnrate.
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Being on console, I'm just not gonna put a ton of work into learning a killer who can just be fov tech'd against when using their power. Killers like him, Nurse, Oni, Blight, etc are "made for PC" killers. Their strength comes from the player's ability to make snap decision attacks within a fraction of a second's reaction time. So it's unfortunate that it affects my judgement on the killer, but I don't think he's super strong under any circumstance. If he was, he'd be played in tournament all the time, and at top MMR. The fact that people aren't playing him there, and you can easily imagine all the counterplay of why, tells me he has too much counterplay to be that strong. Speed and instadowns be damned.
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Absolutely not. His power doesn't work at just any loop. Many loops, but probably not even most. There's just too many possibilities for the survivors dodging that he has to account for. Look at shack, for example. He has the same issue there that Huntress, Demogorgon, and Wesker have when using their powers along the outside. When using their powers, they have the option of hugging the wall of the shack, aiming more outwards to anticipate a dodge, or trying to aim for the middle of both. If the survivor reads them on that, whole chase gets reset. The survivor even has another option of swinging way out, which would leave them more out-positioned, but who cares because the killer misses and goes on a cooldown before they can catch up. Then look at the short, less-linear tiles. Hillbilly has even less options there. And he most certainly does need Bamboozle. A mere TL can destroy his game plan. Hillbilly during Overclock is a different story, with faster speed, charge-up, and cooldown, but that's the point. He's supposed to be more powerful in that mode, not resulting in zero counterplay, but less counterplay. And that additional pressure the survivor gets put under, so does Hillbilly (you need faster reactions, less room for error on positioning, etc).
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Just to clarify one thing, his turn rate and speed was something Billy has always been able to do, but it required setting controller sensitivity to 70-100%, since that also scaled his Q/E and mouse turn rate.
Most classic Billy mains played with controller sensitivity set to 100% to have the most potential at loops, but it obviously was the most difficult to control, but this was well known in Billy community. The changes that BHVR made standardised Billy so that his turn rate was the same for everyone, rather than it being a secret setting for PC players only.
Billy has functioned the same way for years, and often cited as one of the most fun killers in the game since he was released. The only thing that makes him stronger now is his potential is higher in the hands of a really skilled Billy when using Overdrive... but most BIllys I see can't use Overdrive too well…
So tbh, I'm not really sure why everyone seems to hate Billy all of sudden... outside of Overdrive he's basically the same as he always was with some basekit add-ons... to be fair he got a LOT of numbers buffs in 7.5.0, but a lot of them have been slashed again by 8.3.0...
So I'm not too sure why Billy is suddenly so controversial...
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I can respect your views. Thanks for sharing them, I love to learn new things/perspectives. I play on console too so I’m for sure never going to be the best. But I do think Billy is very strong against the average bulk of the players.
However, I do believe you when you say that higher up he is less viable.
Thanks for the reply 🕊️
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I believe I addressed this point though, but to try again... the assertion is that Billy can reliably just stop next to a survivor and get a free m1? This I don't believe is true, and is the crux of this injured argument.
Depending on what counts as "next to" and "reliably" we have both seen and done so as Billy. We can stop close enough where unless the survivor is next to something we can relatively quickly smack them right after.
[Just so we're absolutely clear the "contention" is only about if injured survivors are at any more risk correct?] If Billy misses and stops near a survivor he can very effectively m1 yes. Yes less than a second difference between demos shred whifs and Billy whiffs and both can "spam". Demo however launches himself however far should the doggy go for it while Billy can quickly stop. Its not trying to whiff to get closer, its that he can try to saw and stop nearby an injured survivor should he see one to then boop even should he miss (assuming he didn't veer stupidly far off course for some reason). Demo does not (to our knowledge) easily control where he lands, at least compared to Billy.
If my contention is correct that Billy can't reliably recover off a saw whiff into an m1, Billy can't do what these other killer can do (the tap and chase down hit). This means Billy using his saw is mostly the same threat, whether you're injured or not... and if he isn't using his saw, he is an m1 killer.
This one is confusing us. So heres a scene: Injured survivor is working on a gen. Billy saws from who knows where to try and hit said survivor. He does not hit with the saw but stops just abit from where said survivor was and goes a runs seconds to simply boop the survivor down should there be little to work with. Now change the survivor to healthy. Now Billy has to land the saw or is required to boop the survivor a second time before said survivor goes down. Hence our line of thought here that being injured is still a detriment as much if not more.
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In our defense, we've always disliked Billy so nothin new here.
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Fair enough, and to be fair, you've said a number of times you're trying to account for your bias, and acknowledged historically Billy has been a very popular killer... and really Im kinda arguing with my own bias, cause I obviously like Billy 😅🤘
This one is confusing us. So heres a scene: Injured survivor is working on a gen. Billy saws from who knows where to try and hit said survivor. He does not hit with the saw but stops just abit from where said survivor was and goes a runs seconds to simply boop the survivor down should there be little to work with. Now change the survivor to healthy. Now Billy has to land the saw or is required to boop the survivor a second time before said survivor goes down. Hence our line of thought here that being injured is still a detriment as much if not more.
Regarding this issue, I do understand the scenario you describe, but in this hypothetical there is an assumption of when the survivor attempts to leave the gen, and we both can only really compare our anecdotal experience.
Blight is a killer I've traditionally disliked, and it was one tip from one streamer that changed my opinion on Blight completely, and that was, you need to ensure that Blight doesn't get a hit off his initial rush to a gen. This means you need to ensure you're ready to move to safety immediately for if Blight heads your way. This one change to my playstyle, and now I really enjoy playing vs. Blight.
It's the same thing with Billy. Billy can't turn quickly or redirect once he's charging; you can predict where he will come from off a hook, and he can't adjust to cut you off (unlike Blight). This means you should often be able to make good headway to safety as long as you pay attention.
Maybe I'm better at this skill than the average survivor cause I don't run WoO or Exhaustion perks, so for me to survive I have to account for issues reaching safety more often against most killers, so Billy is just an extension of this playstyle. I've rarely had issues with Billy m1ing me after a whiff that I can't also explain as a sub-optimal movement or a poor prediction on my part...
However of course this is all anecdotal and subjective... so I think we've probably explored all objective arguments we can make...
If Hillbilly does need to be nerfed because it's too easy for him to m1 off a saw, I feel adding a cooldown would be the wrong way to nerf him. I'd hit his miss movement speed and cooldown timings... but I personally think this is all fine at base, it's only really his Overdrive that I can really buy as something that pushes him over the top.
Maybe with his Overdrive, I'd consider giving him the longer duration on it back, but have the recoveries for it be worse than those at base. Either that, or I'd also consider keeping it a short duration with those penalties, but making it activatable off his secondary, so he can at least choose when to use it.
That would be my direction looking at Billy... but... I have a lot of fun vs. Billy, so I'm not really looking to nerf him.
Post edited by UndeddJester on2 -
I think it is fine that Billy's power can be spammed because he is the only one shot killer that can really be dodged. You can of course try and spin a killer but that will only work, if they're inexperienced. Against a Hillbilly this comes down to mind games. Whoever makes the better read will come out on top and that is additional to the other counterplay you have.
A point blank Hillbilly is indeed very hard to dodge. An experienced player will back revv and keep the saw at 99% until they can all but guarantee a hit. But this isn't really what people talk about when they say you can dodge. Dodging typically refers to his curves and snipes. It is always in your best interest to maintain some distance so that he cannot just back revv. This is not always easy but considering that he has to revv the chainsaw for 2.5 seconds (2.375 seconds in overdrive), which allows you to cover 10 metres (9.5 metres in overdrive) before the saw actually goes off. If you are in a loop, you will probably be able to drop the pallet / vault window in that time. If you know that you are in a terrible spot either way, you can also try and force a M1 by waiting at the window and vaulting when he revvs. This is better than going down in one hit.
Against an Oni you don't have that much counterplay because his power works in a different way. Oni can react to your movements (and he has a gigantic hitbox) while Billy pretty much always has to make a prediction. That is why Billy has his power throughout the entire game.
I definitely see your point with overdrive. I would prefer the mechanic to stay but a rework to where it builds up very slowly for using the chainsaw and then a bunch when you get a hit. That would reward a Billy for playing well (this would require active overdrive to pause when the killer is carrying someone, so it doesn't incentivise slugging) instead of punishing a survivor that plays well. At the moment, I just don't like how he feels to play. Overdrive feels slow (although it is not even that much slower, so it's possible that it's just my own perception) and it takes forever to build up. The funny thing is that this still doesn't get me to use any of the dissipation addons. I could bring nothing at all and it would be pretty much the same result.
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Tbh all the killers you've compared Billy except for Oni are considered hella weak.
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Fair enough.
Though we wouldn't mind somethin nerfed, this is more us trying to see why people like Billy so much and if our points in comparison to the other one shot killers is fair enough to warrant our dislike. No need to give the audience nerf or buff ideas, we all know they watchin.1 -
We'd disagree on that front. Before we yap more we'll put "dodge" as: "avoiding the hit". Dodging does indeed include point blank. Billy is, to us, as hard to dodge as oni. Demon dash = snipes and Smash = point blank [more or less]. They're both relatively equal [to us] with the main exceptions being Oni's is slightly better (no crashing, can flick, slightly reduced CDs compared to Billy) with more effort and a time limit. He still has to predict to hit, he's still blocked by objects, same counter play when he angry, yet Billy is a discounted version of this 24/7. We can spin around a bad Billy just the same yet its more…ugg feeling to us cause even if we some how managed to keep dodging like that for 5 gens, 1 slip and down we go while Oni would have at least run outta fury ages ago.
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We compared Billy to each killer with an instant down base kit. Did we miss one?
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