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Generator Speeds and End-Game...
This is a bit of a mild rant about how the DBD community discusses topics such as Generator Speeds…
5 Generators. Survivors have to complete 5 Generators, which take around 90 seconds per Generator to complete. Yes there are ways to shortcut the Survivor's objective, such as bringing a toolbox or perks to make the Generators go faster, but it often leaves them more vulnerable to the various Killer strategies available (tunneling, proxy-camping, slugging, etc.).
I see a post every now and then about how Generator speeds are too fast or how slowdown is ineffective. "All the Generators get done quick, something must be done about it," but within these discussion, I think people kind of ignore how DBD, as a game, is structured. When all 5 Generators are completed, the game isnt instantly over, the Survivors dont instantly escape, the end-game exists to give the Killer a bit more time to wrap things up or pull the game back into their favor.
Technically speaking, (while I dont have %s to give) a vast majority of my games I win as Killer, often only running 1 or 2 slowdown perks and relying on macro gameplay to slowdown the game and strategically deal with Survivors by applying pressure in the right areas. I dont win every game of course, but I do win a majority. A lot of these games that I win, a decent chunk has all 5 Generators being completed, but Im able to pull things back in the end-game or the game-state is in a way where it doesnt matter if all Generators get done since Id still leave with a 3K or higher.
Endgame IS important. A lot of people like to write it off about how the Exit Gates dont take that much time to open and how you are always going to lose in Endgame but it is far from the reality. Perks can extend the Endgame and help with much needed pressure, and you dont have to worry about protecting Generators since your objective at that point is to play for kills. And even without perks, playing smart can give you an extra hook(s) which can make the difference between a 2K and a 3K.
Overall. Im tired of people ignoring the impact the endgame has on DBD, especially when it can make a massive difference.
Comments
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Indeed gen speeds are too fast, but instead of complaining about it I accept it and adapt by tunneling asap. My style of play is strong early game, find survivor asap and tunnel them out. Mid game is a bit poor yes unless survivors mess up badly but then end game is strong with noed. I figure more often than not, gens are being completed no matter what so might as well prepare for the end game. 🤷♂️ Works pretty well for me
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There's multiple things I will try to say...
- 90 seconds per Gen sounds good on paper but experience has taught us that we fall on one side that says that it's to long and the other saying that it's too long... we need to truly figure out the base stats and go from there
- Gen speed up perks and Toolboxes VS Gen Slowdow both have to be looked at with a fine tooth comb cause it's an open wound at this point
It's more about the community (and the Devs) coming together to find common ground on this topic
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BHVR can't really increase gen speeds. It's boring to do gens, which means people will get bored even more, which means they will play less. What dev would want that?
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I've always thought that a system that encourages survivors to actually walk around the map instead of just sitting in place on gens would be a lot more interactive and fun. Like gens were quicker, but at 70-80% gen progress, the gen stops working and you have to go somewhere on the map to pick up a part, then return to the gen.
Obviously it would be hard to balance, but anything would be better than just sitting still on gens. Encourage the survivors to move around a bit, that would lead to more killer interaction, more interesting stealth, etc. Just a pipe dream of course and it would be hard to balance but I think it would be more fun in practice.
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i think end game is often written off because in large past, especially in regard swf, lots of swf would run 4 adrenaline or combination of Hope. So while end game isn't technically over, it is over when you consider 2/4 people having hope and other 2 instant healing. there is also the fact that with 4 survivor alive, you can have teammate that sit near gate as gen completes and that is 20 second gate open. 20 second goes by fast and survivor generally have 2 man escape that is near guaranteed.
This hardly a thing in soloq. so most games to get end game in soloq is journey. it is not a given.
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Same. I only ever use 1 perk for slowdown (usually Surge). Macro play for the rest.
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For what actually? Killers are already winning majority of matches. Do we want to make them even more stronger?
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survivor is boring af because gens are completed extra fast and with barely any skillchecks... 90 seconds is only on paperz in reality it takes at most 50 most of the times.
Also, kicking gens is an absolute joke that does nothing. I have kicked gens that were around 90% and even after the other 4 gens get finished, that first one still hadnt completed to regress...
Tbh, the entire game needs an overhaul. Survivors need more objectives than just sitting on a gen, pressing a button with one hand, while with the other you can scroll through instagram with absolute no repercussion...
Of course, improving the game requires effort, and we know bhvr doesn't do that
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I blame the Endgame Collapse for that.
This mechanic has always been a terrible, terrible addition to the game. Sure, it solved the problem of survivors holding the game hostage (which I have never seen happen, not once) but it removed everything that made the end-game interesting.
You can't have interesting plays or strategies when the game is forcing you to leave, there is simply not enough time. Hell, an entire build that was created around extending the game after the gens were done (Endgame Pig) got literally deleted from existence to make way for that mechanic.
A tactical part of the game got replaced with the idea of ending the match ASAP, and that was never good or healthy for DBD.
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I understand what you mean my dear friend. Though some aspects have improved like immature players holding game hostage etc or refusing to leave when the game is done.
And you mentioned this already --EDIT. I really should read the entire post first lmao.
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perhaps survivors could have to find the handle for the door switches, or a fuse or something to get them to work. They could also have gens that could be sped up with items hidden in the environment.
One thing I’ve always felt Friday the 13th did better than DBD was have different challenges to do to try and escape.
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Gens arent too fast. Maybe you should start learn how to play killer skillfully and not just rely on cheap game design.
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Gens are 90 seconds and Survivors have several tools now to speed them up more. Simply, there are four of them and one Killer.
The perks are not the issue, nor are the teamwork boosts. The issue with gen speeds comes from toolboxes, usually.
I am of the opinion that ALL gen control on both sides, Killer or Surv, should be capped at 20%. No more. Baseline and then 20% MAX. More is insane.
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Lmao cheap game design because survivors don't like it? Maybe survivors need to find a way to counter the cheap game design? Because this cheap game design as you call it is clearly effective.
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I do miss my endgame Piggly Wiggly plays...
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"It works therefore it's good game design" lol
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It works and it's fun therefore it's good game design. What people don't understand is that for a killer it makes little difference who they chase. It could be same person all match it could be all 4 alternating each time. The chase is essentially the same for the killer. If you want poor game design look at the survivor side... Sit on a gen pressing a button now and then when a skill check happens. Or go in circles like a scooby doo sketch looping... That's poor and cheap game design.
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Survivors don't like it
It's fun
????
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It's fun for killer... Survivors don't like it but that's part of the game. I don't like going in circles around a pallet every chase but it's part of the game and apparently survivors find it fun.
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Dudes will really go on the forum for [game] and then complain about [core mechanic]
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Lmao exactly my point, chasing is a core mechanic and survivors are like "come chase me, waving a flashlight around and crouching" then cry when the killer chases them and downs them... Then they are like "stop tunneling" my point is not everyone likes the core mechanic of the opponent but I don't complain about it, I get on with it and counter it my way which is tunnel asap. It's up to the survivors to counter the tunneling not cry about it.
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Hahaha, well friend, that is what they claimed the EGC was meant to do.
But sometimes I still wonder if survivors holding the game hostage happened as often as some people claimed. I started playing before the EGC was added to the game, and I've never seen that happen.
Endgame Pig was really fun, I liked it!
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Tunneling and using noed are not core mechanics in the same way looping is, and the people who try to take chase by clicking a flashlight and teabagging are not the same people complaining in earnest about tunneling.
My point is that you don't like DBD, you like winning, and the gameplay style you choose maximizes the ratio of doing what you like (winning) with what you don't like (actually playing the game), and I'm not listening to the opinions on what's "good game design" of anyone who dislikes the core mechanics of the game they're playing
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I do wonder if they got rid of all gen progression perks for survivor how would that affect the game.
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I enjoy winning at dbd yea lol that makes playing the game fun. I still have to chase people, still have to counter loops, still have to decide what perks to bring and noed is risky because it has a chance of being cleansed very quickly. So tunneling is a core mechanic but not in the same way? Seriously? I am playing the game according to the core design of chase survivor, kill survivor. Survivors love to keep a killer occupied for as long as possible so others can do gens, but when they suck at it and the killer keeps downing them then it's a different matter. It's ridiculous lol. The people complaining about tunneling are the ones saying "ok you got me, now leave me alone so I can finish a gen while you chase someone else" as always it's pick and choose whatever suits the survivor at that given moment in time. Do killers say "ok you did 1 gen now don't do any more until I get a hook" it's crazy 😂 how some people change the rulebook whenever they please smh.
Simply put if survivors don't want to be chased then don't play survivor? Can't pick and choose when you do and don't want to be chased, it's all part of the game like it or not.
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No, there is nothing about the game that requires you to keep hooking only the same survivor until they are dead. It is a choice to do that. I personally love getting killers who do that to me specifically, because I've gotten some pretty sick chases that lasted multiple minutes and resulted in easy 4-outs, but that's beside the point.
By contrast, when survivors do not take advantage of loops, they simply die. There is no other option there.
Also killers absolutely love telling survivors that they did gens too fast. It's, like, the thing killers complain about. I went up against a streamer who rage quit and accused me of gen rushing because we got a grand total of 2 gens done in just under 3 minutes at the start of the match. The audacity to pretend "gen rush" isn't within the top handful of most common killer complaints is astounding
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Survivors do have options, they can lose line of sight, they can hop from pallet to pallet which some do especially with windows of opportunity, they can hide when heart beat kicks in... They choose to ignore these strats and rely on loops and when they go against an anti loop killer like pyramid head or huntress they still try to loop and go down fast. Therefore looping a method of avoiding being caught like many others. Killers that tunner is just using another tactic to kill the survivor. All part of the core mechanics of the game, chase and be chased.
As for gen speeds, I have said many times here that I never used to tunnel... Until gens started popping faster and regression perks got nerfed. I don't think I'm the only one that gen speeds have pushed into tunneling people out asap.
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I think you misunderstanding complaining and pointing out a reason why me and many other killers do what we do. Like I said I think gens fly too fast so instead of crying about it I accept it and adapt by tunneling. I think survivors should do the same, they can think tunneling is op or unfair or unfun but instead of complaining about it maybe adapt and learn to counter it.
Reason I think this way is because since I tunnel I don't care how fast gens pop, I still get 3/4k in most of my matches.... Rarely get 2k and extremely rare I get less than 2k. See the difference between complaining about something doing nothing about it and stating an opinion, accepting it and adapting?
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Gen speeds are "too fast" but its not really about them being too fast, its about the ratio between gen speeds and chase time is off at the higher levels. The game is theoretically supposed to be "balanced" around chases lasting 45 seconds. Lets math that out.
Imagine a game where, before the first chase starts, all the survivors spread out and the first chase starts right as all the survivors hop on a gen, and lets assume that every chase lasts exactly 45 seconds, the killer doesn't tunnel, or camp, and attempts to get 12 hooks.
So, the first chase starts at 0 and 3 survivors hop on 3 different gens.
At 45 seconds, the killer gets a down, and 3 gens have 45 seconds of progress. The killer has to wait 2.7 for the wipe animation, and then picks the survivor up taking 3 seconds, then walks to a hook which takes 10 seconds then hooks the survivor which takes 1.5 seconds. We are now at 62.2 seconds. Lets just say 62 seconds. So of the 450 seconds needed total for a gen, 186 seconds have been done.
After hooking the survivor, lets just pretend that the killer literally teleports to the next survivor, and another survivor teleports to the survivor on the hook. So now you have, 1 survivor in chase, 1 unhooking and healing, 1 unhooked and healed, 1 on a gen. During this time, the survivor gets un hooked and healed, which takes 19 seconds, and then they spend the another 25 seconds running to a gen. So lets say that they hop on a gen, right as the other chase ends.
So we have 45 seconds of a chase and 45 seconds of gens being done. This process will repeat until the 9th hook, after which a survivor is killed. So how what happens?
1st chase = 186 seconds of progress
2nd chase = 231 seconds
3rd chase = 276
4th chase = 321
5th chase = 366
6th chase = 411
7th chase = 456
So you can see, in this world where, every single chase starts immediately and lasts exactly the "balanced" 45 second mark, and only 1 survivor is on a gen during every chase after the 1st (simulating them being occupied at times). Survivors complete all the gens before the killer barely gets over the halfway point. And the survivors are well over halfway done.
Now, this is assuming chases last 45 seconds. Well, how long does a chase actually last? Against top tier killers like nurse, chases can last maybe 15-20 seconds. But what about a normal killer like doctor, or demogorgon or your standard "m1 killer"? How long can chase last if the survivor just shift+w and doesn't use pallets and windows? Well, about 45 seconds. That's right, if the survivor just shift+w to a corner of the map, the chase should last around 45 seconds. How about a pallet? Well, every pallet break adds about 20 seconds to a chase. I can show the math if you want.
Yes, killer powers and such can lower that amount, but once you realize this, you see why all of the "top tier" killers are the ones that can catch up. They are the killers like nurse, blight, spirit, hillbilly, etc. While killers like myers, drege, demo, and so on are left in the dust.
The other problem is when you factor in the higher level play, where a good survivor can use checkspots, to basically force killer shack to be 3 vaults before a pallet is broken, and they can waste a solid 45-60 seconds of time before the killer even gets a pallet, let alone a down and a hook.
The problem is not that gen speeds take too long, its that maps are too strong for good survivors. The average survivor is busy predropping shack pallet while still getting hit anyway, whereas the good survivor is chaining that shack into a filler into a jungle gym and wasting 60+ seconds of a killer's time before they even land their first hit.
What needs to be done, is not increasing gen time, but decreasing the power of the maps. Every single structure and loop should be a pure 50/05. If the killer guesses right, they get a hit, if the survivor guesses right, they can either "A: get a few more loops around the same structure before the 50/50 again, or B: run to a different loop and start the process again" But most pallets in the game are safe in some way (again against GOOD survivors who know how to use check spots) making it so you MUST break the pallet to get past them, and then you just added 20 seconds to your chase.
Adding gen time will only hurt the low skill survivors who can't loop. If anything the gen time needs to be lowered, while buffing killer basekit gen defense and regression, and nerfing base maps and structures. This would even out the game in a way where lower skill survivors, who are likely going against lower skill killers, will have a much better shot at winning their games, while the higher skill survivors, who are going against higher skill killers, are able to better showcase their skills so a win actually proves who is better.
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Well it really depends on the killer if that works, you won't win with that as a trapper for the most part as excampel. There's no way that this killer is strong enough to rely only on macrogame and win that way, endgame is also not really possible with him.
As huntress as excampel I don't use slowdown at all and play her with a lot of aura: bbq, lethal, floods of rage and iron maiden (glowing concuction also). I win a lot with this build when I play huntess actively and my snipes are on point but I'm sure I could never do that as legion as excampel, he's just not strong enough for that.
Also to make endgame a sizeable factor besides 1 kill probably you'd have to use endgame-perks. If you use endgameperks and slowdown you'd have to ignore more categories of perks, as excample aura- and chase-perks. While that can work it would need a stronger killer yet again and a person that actually wants to play that way, I personally actually want to win the game during the game and it feels worse otherwise xD
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Gens need an overhaul and have their own sort of mini-game or something. Longer gen speeds could be for more interesting interactions with the gen as opposed to just holding a button for longer.
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I wouldn't bother with that person Prometheus, they're heavily Survivor-sided in basically every take they post on these forums.
Gens could stand to be changed to something much more interesting, it's boring to sit on your only objective and pushing them super fast makes Killers feel they MUST pressure super hard or they don't get a round in some cases. It feels really bad for gens to pop so fast before you get even a few hooks. It also feels bad when it's your ONLY objective to just sit there. I'd almost rather tank my MMR for good and stay in the low end baby ranks with the casuals and newbies, because at least then they dare to try new things and I have a chance either side. Up in higher MMR it's literally "Meta and sweat or die/lose", and it's JUST not fun.
I 100% believe all the people complaining about how bad Surv is or how hard Killer is just are up in that sweat rank and are sad they don't get easy wins anymore.
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No... all I'm saying is that finding a balance between the progression and regression
Cause at times the progression is a bit much and at other times the regression is a bit much
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