http://dbd.game/killswitch
Go Next Prevention: Why so complicated?
Like a lot of people I'm cautiously optimistic about the announced changes, but I'm concerned about BHVR's tendency to try and reinvent the wheel so to speak. They try complex solutions for what seem to be a straightforward goal.
Take the basekit mori example. BHVR had a goal (we'll leave the merits of that aside for the moment), and we started with a radical game overhaul, a year where the idea was likely under discussion, another PTB, before finally getting to what some people had been suggesting from the very beginning: just basekit mori the last survivor.
On the other hand, we have anti-face camp. What did they want to prevent? Face camping. How did they do it? If the killer is around the hook too long, the survivor can just unhook. It was the clear, straightforward way to address what they didn't want to have happen.
I'm worried, and I don't seem to be alone, that we're being given another complex system. I don't think its necessary.
As an example BHVR said: 'most commonly, intentionally failing Skill Checks while on Hook.'*
If this is your most common issue, just remove skill checks for second stage, its not like they are an important part of the game. Or only allow them after a certain amount of time (say 30 seconds). Why put a complex detection system in place when you can just stop the activity outright?
The idea of giving people DC penalties and depips for a system that the game allows seems extremely counterproductive. I get that there might be extreme situations where this is warranted, but in most of these cases, you could just prevent the activity from ever happening.
*Personal note: I think BHVR is really misdiagnosing the problem here. By far the most problematic part isn't survivors dying on their second hook state, its survivors on their first hook, potentially even the first hook of the match, 4%ing down to the second state. That isn't even mentioned when it should be the absolute focus of what they want to solve.
Comments
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Nah I probably still will at least just to mess around.
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Yeah in my opinion the simplest, easiest way to address the second stage "issue" would be if a player fails two skillchecks the player leaves the game and is replaced by a bot. They can't really force people to stay in a game against their will, that's a recipe for disaster. Plus it's a compromise for those who inevitably will want to move on to the next game while not necessarily making the game miserable for everyone else.
But instead of simply granting additional bloodpoints™, they could start flagging all the chronically go next-ers and put them in lobbies with each other. Guaranteed to curb that behavior.And 100% agree that the unhook attempting is the real issue here, which could be easily solved by only letting people attempt unhooks when there's 20 seconds left on the timer. Saves them from having to change perks, mechanics, timers etc.
But BHVR gonna BHVR I guess.
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Problem as I see it is a simple system can have any one of/or multiple issues such as: -
- It is easy to subvert.
- Doesn't address the problem.
- Causes false positives
- Limits the players playing genuinely more than the players who quit.
E.g. If you make it so Survivors only have skillchecks after 50% of their bar is depeleted on struggle phase (stage2), the system is ineffective (point 2) because they've already lost an extra hook stage and only need a little over 30s or to run to the killer to escape.
If you remove hook stages from stage 2, you prevent attempts to sacrifice a genuine losing scenario for hatch and hit point 4.
If you make it so if miss 2 skillchecks as you hit stage 2 you give me a low priority lobby, you hit points 1 and 3 where newbie players don't understand, and players wanting to quit, hit one, then miss 2.
If you make it so no self unhook attempts period, you hit point 4. Players can't try to kobe in a no hope situation, or when their team doesn't try to help them.
The issue you guys are presenting is you're trying to come up with a system to discourage players from leaving, but without forcing them to stay... these goals are diametrically opposed... any system that is effective must by definition give a strong enough deterrent to force a survivor to stay, otherwise the system is ineffective.
The examples cited, such as the AFC, are more complex than they appear, with careful controls for mutliple floors, a temprary delay, and different behaviour based on survivor/killer proximity to not punish the killer from doing sensible and natural things near the hook.
The Finisher Mori is quite simple granted, and we're seeing the issues from that where the killer has to painstakingly wait for the 3rd player to die before they can Mori, and the rise of slugging for the 4k. I consider those issues small myself, but some people are quite upset by it. The Finisher Mori would probably benefit from a system that is a little more complex to make attaining the Finisher mori a mini challenge for killers to encourage playing the game in more interesting manner. E.g. minimum 10 hook requirements to encourage more macro driven gameplay as a sott of "true victory" or "Entity reward" system.
Having discussed this issue a lot, it's very difficult to find a system that actually solves those 4 points.
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I agree that it's a bit of a misdiagnosis, and I also think it's a nuanced problem. You can't lump all "go next" behavior together. The immediate 4% on the first down 20 seconds into a game is ridiculous, but that's its own thing. You have other situations where people go next.
You start the game off playing normally and realize quickly that the game was lost as soon as that lobby was put together. The killer has someone dead at 3-5 gens, and other players have hook states. Are we really saying people shouldn't go next there? That game is over. Everyone remembers the one time their team recovered a 3v1 in the last year. You also need to remember the hundreds of other times when it didn't happen.
Are we counting a 2v1 self-sacrifice as a go next? All you're doing is denying your teammate a possible hatch by hitting the skill checks.
There's still enormous potential for killers to make the game downright unfun. There are so many killer+build combos that nobody in their right mind wants to sit through. Obviously that's more of a subjective thing, but I've never seen a game succeed after the devs decide that their game isn't the problem and it's the player's fault. The MMO graveyard is littered with that type of thinking. Heck, look at VHS if you want a more relevant example.
I don't think the game is in the right spot for Go Next Prevention. Not until you really diagnose why players are going next and address that. Not until you implement quality matchmaking and drastically reduce the amount of throwaway trials. And not until you smooth out the gameplay loop between a 4v1>3v1>2v1. Because there's functionally no difference between a 1k at 3+ gens and a 3k. And if you're really going to tell players that they have to wait 10 minutes to lose a game they've already lost, you're going to start to hemorrhage players.
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I think they're trying real hard to keep the 4% chance and all the perks, offerings, challenges, and achievements tied into that system.
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The punishment should be in a queue for other "go next" players.
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It probably won't be very complicated at all:
- Were they Killed before 3 minutes elapsed?
- Were they the first Killed?
- Were they trying to Kobe at first sacrifice stage
- Did they ignore the second stage skillchecks?
If yes for all, then issue a dodge penalty.
I'd imagine it's more about preventing players from being able to exit early (thusly screwing their team over in a 1v3)
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Problem as I see it is a simple system can have any one of/or multiple issues such as: -So I think all of these problems exist with a complex system and may even be worse.
E.g. If you make it so Survivors only have skillchecks after 50% of their bar is depeleted on struggle phase (stage2), the system is ineffective (point 2) because they've already lost an extra hook stage and only need a little over 30s or to run to the killer to escape.But the current system, at least as described in the post what they are focusing on, this doesn't exist either. If we get multiple layers of checks, when the problem is glaringly obvious, by overcomplicating it we've missed the obvious problem.
On the other hand, let's say their data indicates the issue is 2nd stage skill checks. They just remove the first 30 seconds of skill checks. If after a few weeks the player base opinion is "hey, here's how that doesn't work" then you move onto the next thing.
It's easier to start simple and add more layers, then start complex and winnow down (see the basekit mori example).
And if that one simple layer does work, great, you're done, and don't have to worry about false positives.
If you make it so no self unhook attempts period, you hit point 4. Players can't try to kobe in a no hope situation, or when their team doesn't try to help them.But again, this is something that we have and their proposed solution (again, with the limited info we have) doesn't look like it is going to change. Right now killers can circumvent the idea of player getting out of the game by leaving them slugged. Even if a player was trapped on a hook for a 70 second timer, that would be an improvement over being trapped on the ground for 4 minutes.
Again though, you can put in base kit idea and work from there. What's the problem? Go next from first stage with kobe attempts. Okay remove those. Oh, wait, but we need unhooks later in the match.
No problem, slight modification. No unhook attempts within the first X minutes or first 1 or 2 people who are hooked. There's no guesswork on the survivor part of whether or not they are in a position where they can attempt the unhook, nor are we in the situation where matches can still be ruined by people who are willing to eat the depip / dc penalty (instead they would just eat the DC penalty if they really wanted to, but then there is at least a bot).
The examples cited, such as the AFC, are more complex than they appear, with careful controls for mutliple floors, a temprary delay, and different behaviour based on survivor/killer proximity to not punish the killer from doing sensible and natural things near the hook.But more complex than they are appear when they are simple for the player to understand. As killer, don't be close to hook for too long, unless another survivor is there. The killer player doesn't need to worry about the specific distances, the times, or all of that. Some people will inevitably map out the extreme edges of the system, but you don't need to fix everything to have a solution that improves the game.
Having discussed this issue a lot, it's very difficult to find a system that actually solves those 4 points.But you don't need to solve. You need to improve.
'The first two survivors hooked may not attempt to unhook themselves, barring a perk or AFC."
Is that going to solve every issue associated with players going next? No. Would it improve the game? Absolutely.
And you can even modify the above. Two can become one or instead of a number of counts, we can make it the first X minutes of the match. You can start safe, then expand.
I think my biggest point against starting with complex, is there is nothing wrong with going a step at a time (other than BHVR seems opposed). By staying simple you've limited the damage you can do and can solve a portion of the problem at a time. Not to mention you would save a ton of design and coding time during the process.
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In this case though: why issue a penalty? If its that clear, why even give the player the option?
If condition 1 and 2 are true, and no unhook perk or AFC present, no unhook option is presented. Instead you're risking angering players between the difference of a 2:55 kobe (bad) and a 3:05 kobe (perfectly fine)
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You're not wrong, I tried to oversimplify an example. I'd expect it to not be hard cutoffs for time, and likely have players get flagged for hitting most of that criteria in a game that can result in a penalty if that kinda stuff happens too frequently in their matches.
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That's one way of doing it aye, and not a bad approach. The only potential downside of an iterative approach is it can tunnel vision/pigeon hole you into 1 line of thinking.
The issue that sticks out to me is there is no Universal "go next" method, the challenge here really is detection.
The ideal solution is that nothing in the game changes for players who aren't going next... if possible, we would ideally want our mechanics to stay exactly the same and only punish players with clear intent on just ruining the game unprovoked and going next.
The way I would do this myself would not be a automatic "you did this so DC penalty". I'd likely attribute weights that accumulate to then give a ban.
E.g. A player on their first hook who immediately unhook attempts and misses 2 skillchecks looks like an easy ban... but what if its 8 mins into the game, 4 gens are left, everyone else has 2 hooks and 1 survivor is dead? Now this is much more reasonable to try and kobe, and in the event of failure choose to sacrifice.
So instead of being 1 question with an automatic "detection = ban", I'd look to applying weightings based on context. So on a 10 mins of thought system, I might consider: -
- How long has gone by in the trial?
- Did they try to kobe and miss 2nd stage skillchecks? How much time did they spend on hook before they attempted?
- How many players are dead/in the dying state when they died?
- How many score events does the player have relative to their time in the trial?
- How many hooks does the killer have, and how many gens have survivors completed?
- How much chase time does the survivor have relative to their time in the trial minus time in the dying or hooked state?
- Do they have AFK crows?
You get the idea. Any individual measure on this list is flawed by itself, and any simple system will only factor 1 or 2 of these measures in. However when you combine them all together it becomes pretty hard to misidentify someone. The common part of all of these things is that time spent making genuine effort in the trial, even for a newb, gives a reasonable measure of their participation. The main issue to tackle is the immediate DC/SoH at the start of the trial.
The major problem of players quitting is when players quit a perfectly winnable game cause they throw a tantrum... but after the game has been going a while, the likelihood someone quits drops substantially. There is a nice correlation between that and how early in the trial they die, but there are these other factors to consider. So if we run some scenarios: -
- A player who gives up just because its Wraith, or they got a dodgy hit on them over a pallet in the first chase will score poorly on 6 of these points...
- A player bad at looping who gets tunneled out from first hook may score poorly on 3-4 points... but will score well on at least 3 points, and may even score well on up to 5 points.
- A player who unalives to give hatch may score poorly on 3 points, but will score well on others.
- A player who is AFK is likely to fail on 5 of these points.
The point is the really agregious players will not just score badly on a number of these points... but they will score REALLY badly in the offending points... and that ties into the weightings. Trying to not score badly on a lot of points before they quit, basically makes it so it's more effort to try to reach a threshold before they try to quit than just eat a penalty, or play the game.
So even if we only hit the most blatant of first and last scenario players, and the system is otherwise quite forgiving, the lack of clarity on how much you have to participate becomes something not worth a players time to try and figure out.
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I don't think the game is in the right spot for Go Next Prevention. Not until you really diagnose why players are going next and address that. Not until you implement quality matchmaking and drastically reduce the amount of throwaway trials. And not until you smooth out the gameplay loop between a 4v1>3v1>2v1. Because there's functionally no difference between a 1k at 3+ gens and a 3k. And if you're really going to tell players that they have to wait 10 minutes to lose a game they've already lost, you're going to start to hemorrhage players.
This is my other main beef with the system, along with all the potential "false positives." All these plans for punishment, while making no effort to understand, let alone address why so many Survivors are going next.
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I'd say a potential long term problem is the impact on people who don't play that much. You have two reactions, neither of which is good:
1: A player every now and then receives a 1 minute penalty. They don't know why, nor do they care, and continue to behave in the same manner.
2: A player every now and then receives a 1 minute penalty. They don't know why, but they are extremely angered by what has happened.
Because if you have weights and a player is only playing occasionally, its going to take awhile for those to add up.
Take the example of player who always quits against Wraith - that might happen 1 out of every 25 matches. If they play ten games a week as survivor, you're looking at a 5 week period for this activity to happen twice.
It also seems a less than optimal use of developer time to design and manage a system of weights when there seems to be pretty significant agreement about what are the biggest problems.
The major problem of players quitting is when players quit a perfectly winnable game cause they throw a tantrumWhich I agree about. I think the solution to that is relatively straightforward by removing/limiting early game kobes. We can worry about the other less major problems later.
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Yeah I suppose I get where you're coming from as I've thought about the complexity, the offence itself now is no longer clear.
I guess I'm fundamentally against adding arbitrary restrictions on mechanics. I don't like solutions that place rules on players for an undefined arbitrary amount of time, because there will always be an exception.
For example what if a hacker instantly Nurse teleports everyone on hook? Players can't try to kobe to kill themselves because not enough time has passed.
Or for a legit (yet extreme) example, what if a bunch of newbies group up vs. Leatherface and all get downed rapidly from his charge resets by his iri add-on? Or even if it's just 3 get caught and the last one gets found after everyone has been hooked? Because enough time hasn't gone past, they are basically forced to sit on hook while they loose hook stages, and can't attempt to kobe...
The devil is in the details with this kind of thing, and I don't think blocking the feature arbitrarily is the right way to go.
I guess it boils down to how much faith you'd have in the implemented system. To me a DC penalty system that weights an offence between a single blatant/egrious instance and/or consistent patterns of high scoring instances within a short time frame seems the less intrusive of the 2 options.
The "simplify it" argument of yours can apply to the DC penalty system too. Simply ask:
- What were the hook stages/states of the other survivors at the time?
- Was an attempt to 3x kobe made with a follow up of 2 non attempt checks?
Just hitting players that fail on those 2 points with penalties would hit a substantial number of SoHs, because now trying to escape the trial by bypassing this system is at the mercy of the killer... and plenty of killers don't take kindly to SoHs either... if the risk is slugged for 4 minutes or take the DC penalty... most people take the DC.
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Exactly. They are so selfish. "I'm gonna queue up just to rage quit. And if you tell me that's bad, you're in the wrong!"
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My biggest question is why did they even make a self unhook achievement? Have they completely forgot about that? Come on someone from bvhr answer this please.
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My guess is that BHVR listened to a reasonably popular streamer, who has a theory that the removal of depipping is the cause of the current level of 'go next'.
It is not, in my opinion it is entirely caused by something that happened right around the same time as the removal of depipping, the punishing of disconnects. That's it, plain and simple. DCs started getting punished, so instead of DCing and not being able to play due to the punishment, those people that regularly DC and already used up their free 5 minute DC punishments for the day, will now attempt on first hook and fail second hook skill checks.
I've suggested a similar solution to 'go next' before, but OP's idea is basically the same and it would work too and probably better. My idea was to just remove 2nd stage skill checks and make the self unhook attempts that fail do nothing to the hook timer. So if you failed your self unhooks you sit on the hook for the full timer of first stage.
I actually like OP's idea a bit more because making them wait to take attempts will mean that players who are going for their unhook have less chance of losing their unhook to a self unhook, unless they wait until the last few seconds. They could even program the self unhook attempts at the end of the timer to actually be automatic attempts.
The only problem I see with making it happen at an obvious time is that killers will learn the exact time frame to return to the hook for that self unhook/deliverance. Maybe change deliverance to work any time and make non-deliverance self unhooks get the full borrowed time effect.
The other part of my idea is punishing afkers who have been gone for three birds or so with automatic disconnects and the corresponding DC punishment and replace them with bots. They really need to make better bots, though.
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Not Today was released as part of the Shattered Bloodlines chapter, which brought Adam with the perk Deliverance.
It's why a lot of suggestions tend to say "ban kobe attempts unless Slippery Meat, Deliverance or Wicked are equipped"
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I guess I'm fundamentally against adding arbitrary restrictions on mechanics. I don't like solutions that place rules on players for an undefined arbitrary amount of time, because there will always be an exception.To me, its a video game. Everything is arbitrary mechanic.
Like if 4%ing just never existed, it never crossed BHVR's mind, I really doubt players would be like 'something feels like its missing'. Or if from the very beginning it had a limitation on when it could be used, I don't think anyone would really think the idea of it having a limitation would even be weird.
I think 2v8 is kind of a good example of that. No one can attempt a kobe and it doesn't feel like anything is missing.
Or for a legit (yet extreme) example, what if a bunch of newbies group up vs. Leatherface and all get downed rapidly from his charge resets by his iri add-on?If I understand the new changes proposed, they can just surrender and get out of the trial.
But let's take the worst case scenario - 3 survivors downed quickly and hooked, final one hides. Normally these 3 survivors try to kobe. Now they have to wait an extra minute.
I'd gladly trade the mild inconvenience of that rarer scenario for the more common scenario of players rage quitting. We're not going to have a perfect solution or a perfect game, but I want the one that has the least amount of "bad" games.
To me a DC penalty system that weights an offence between a single blatant/egrious instance and/or consistent patterns of high scoring instances within a short time frame seems the less intrusive of the 2 options.So I guess my post is a twofold issue.
1: It is better to prohibit certain action than to punish it. If we/BHVR can agree on a metric whereby a player should not 4%, just don't let them 4%.
2: The most straightforward approach should be taken to implementing that and adding layers as necessary.
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Yeah fair enough, even if I don't completely agree, it's a very well reasoned and respectable argument.
Just as a closing thought, I'm not completely convinced by the removal of the 4% beimg better than a penalty, because although it is rare in 2vs8, I have had (and seen complaints about) scenarios where survivors don't move to save people on hook in 2vs8. It's rare cause of the number of players, but it has happened to me at least once.
You as the player on hook are stuck there with literally nothing you can do about it, ypu can't even try... which is the same complaint slugging and slugging for the 4k has going on right now. This is why the option to kobe is there, to try and save yourself if no one else will.
If you attempt to kobe, and fail, no one gets upset, cause they knew it was a long shot... but they still had a shot, and taking that away is not a small thing. Kobe doesn't give you much agency... but it does give you some agency to at least try and still keep playing.
Plus I am a little "you get what deserve" regarding punishment. When I play liller, I make a point of slapping down sandbaggers and slugging quitters, (I otherwise almost never slug)... I believe there is a Gentlemans agreement as survivor to try and help each other win, and going so selfishly against that implied agreement is a big trigger for me... so I am absolutely biased cause I definitely want to see quitters get harsh punishments. 😅
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This is the answer wish more games forced them to play with clones of themselves with the same mentality so they can see how it feels
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I agree. Group them all together for eternity. Or..at least until they start trying to escape trials again as well as the limbo of getting paired with people who play just like they do.
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I get curious that maybe it already is being implemented but we don’t know it.
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I don't see it working, tbh. If they get frustrated enough to leave matches, they'll know that other players are feeling the same way. I've had many teammates give up in my matches, and in about 90% of the cases, I absolutely cannot blame them.
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It's so surprising to me that people get so burnt out over a game, continue to play it, kill themselves, call the game trash, and continue to do it.
Sorta like a person addicted to a drug, but don't know how to stop or get help.
I get burnt out sometimes, I just go hop on a single player game, and come back when I feel like playing.
It makes me wonder how often people play daily or consistently to get to that point and I say that as someone who plays pretty much daily.
I get burnt out, I'll go play Mass Effect or Fallout 4 and come back itching to play. Today, I had two people kill themselves on hook (brought Badham and Autohaven) because of a Nurse and a Trickster like lol.
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My issue with what's going on is I'm tired of being punished for leaving a game where I'm being tunneled out anyway. Devs are trying to force us to stay in game so the killer can get their rocks off.
Tunneling also doesn't mean directly off hook. Tunneling also looks like leaving chase with 1 to go for another or hunting down the 1 survivor who didn't scream when your scourge hook activated or targeting the 1 survivor afflicted by your power. Especially within the first 3 minutes of the game. It's better I at least DC and leave a bot to help than leave only 3 survivors.
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If you place all people who quit together that means half the survivor players will quit DBD actually that is a great idea. Lets go with it. Then there won't be anymore players
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Who can blame them? Nurse is annoying to face but she is at least not a common killer to see as for Trickster he is just not fun to deal with nor fair. He is literally just spam your power until you kill everyone. He does not need to use his brain and he gets free heal states without any thought. Who wants to play against such a trash killer I absolutely understand their pain I would end myself too. I only don't kill myself when I am with friends. That is kinda it but nah alone no way am I dealing with such an annoying killer.
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What perks do you normally run?
I'm only asking because typically, at least what I find — killers either tunnel because they found the weakest link (I don't use "second chance perks" as often as I used to as I don't normally get tunneled in my games often) or it's simply you were hooked first, healing at hook, and the killer comes back to rehook the person.
It's why I've gotten into the habit (even did this months ago when I played solo-queue) to just run away from the hook. I actually like to run all the way to someone on a gen, finish the gen with them, and then reset. Healing at hook is something that I do not like to do, but for some reason randoms will get mad if you tell them to move away and reset elsewhere — especially if a mobility killer is in the match.
Sometimes I outright don't even like healing against Hillbilly as he typically always tries to zone you with his main power, he rides you down, and you can find yourself in a dead zone easily — so, I just pressure gens injured and reset at the end. 😊
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Same if I get burned out I just take a break and do something else that I enjoy. I read like 30 books and completed like 5 other video games in my last break. Video games are supposed to be fun and not feel like a second job, people should be kind to themself. It's okay to leave feedback on what burns you out about it, but like don't let yourself get to that point.
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That is simply not true, lol.
I have many, many, many games where I have a competent team that will actively "play" the game. I can name off hand (I have a little tally system that I do for funsies) about the worst randoms I come across - right now oddly enough it's Feng Min and Sable.
However, I have played with other Feng Mins and Sables who play the game fully, don't give up on hook, and play the game because that's what we all queue up to play.
When I get tunneled, happened earlier today with an Unknown as I played Renato. Did I give up? No. I had given her long chases to ensure that when I died, one gen was left remaining.
If people want to kill themselves or DC, they will do it regardless. Only time I DC is when I have another teammate DC because the game is dead at that point. If a killer decides they want to tunnel me, camp me, slug me, or whatever decision some random randomly DCs for, I will make it a purpose to waste that killer's time just like they are doing to me to give my team a fighting chance.
I hardly if ever go out of my way to be like, eh - I'm in basement with a Trapper or Hag (hardly happens but let's say an example) and think, game is over, let me just die and make it absolutely frustrating for my team to be steamrolled — what a selfish mindset.
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Killer first came immediately back to hook, I started running, he followed until I happened to run by an almost complete gen so he left to go after the one repairing (who he originally dropped chase to come for me in the beginning). Hooked her and triggered a scourge which the screamers were together working on a gen close to my old hook on the other side of the map from where I was when he came hunting for me. Calm spirit always. Im not the best at loops so it's best I hide and crank gens. But nope, getting hunted on the far side of the map.
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Oh yeah, I get incredibly burnt out because one of my friends always asks me to play because he gets tired of randoms and sees me as "reliable".
I just take breaks, I'm a single player girl at heart and Dead By Daylight is one of the few multiplayer games that I actively put time into because I'm passionate about the game.
However, I won't lie and say I don't get burnt out over the game. Even though I can say I like to waste the killer's time like the above, it gets exhausting for me to counter specific things — a slugging Blight I had about a month ago killed my energy to play (even though we got a two man out, I was in a full SWF) I still was burnt out over dealing with such a conundrum. I get that people get annoyed and frustrated with survivor, but at the same time, if you feel that way - take a break.
Like you said, read some books, catch up on some other hobbies, come back with a refreshed mindset because bringing others down with you isn't healthy, in my opinion. Once I feel like I'm repeatedly losing, I take a break. I don't feel like playing? I don't play, I go play something else, or invest my energy elsewhere and I come back with a better mindset.
People who play all day, everyday, go into a game, go down first I went down first, let me kill myself on hook or DC is just odd to me. At that point, just get off spreading all that negative energy elsewhere.
Tired of seeing people DC, kill themselves on hook (I had a Claudette not too long ago attempt to kill themselves on hook when she was found, during my chase, because she was hiding in a locker, injured - just comes across as children to me.
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Sounding like my duo partner with the Trickster comment, lol.
Regardless, I don't DC or anything against any killer because I opt to learn and adapt. People say Nurse is hard to loop, depends on the map, skill level of said Nurse, and if the person in question is good at looping. You giving up to a Nurse on Autohaven (Blood Lodge) or Trickster (Badham) one of the most survivor sided maps in the game with so many LOS blockers is just a cop out answer for me. In order to get better at specific killers, you need to face specific killers, and learn to go against them.
I don't like Wesker, Hillbilly, or Blight at times — does this mean I go in with a negative mindset and just outright give up? No, I try my best and my best typically ends up providing good chase times for my teammates to do things.
Me going up to those 3 and just standing still because I didn't get my way via the map, killer, or my chase lasting less than a minute is just petty. Even then, I still enjoy going against them because all three of them all have the same counters and similarities with one another that I learned through facing them and not giving up. You will not get better by simply queuing up, hearing a Nurse shriek, and DC - but it's you at the end of the day, people can eat the DC penalty while I for my logical DCs get 50 second DC penalties and can easily play a game that I enjoy.
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Well I don't disconnect when its nurse I simply just hide and don't let her see me which is literally the best thing anyone can do against her. And yeah your friend has the right idea because it is the truth Trickster is fundamentally braindead killer. He is just spam and your friend is not incorrect. Before that buff he received you had to actually put in effort but nah they removed every part involving thinking. As for me I know what killers suck to face because I have faced them and I have played an entire game with them and I damn well know they suck to deal with to the point of annoyance. Xenomorph hitting you on windows and pallets for free, Knight guards going through walls, Trickster stupid knife spamming, Singlarity spamming cameras during chase until he slipstreams you and even if you use a stupid emp he slipstreams you within 5 seconds again anyways cause infinite cameras. Literally the people whom I tell the problems of these killers keep telling me I am dumb. I dunno IT IS LITERALLY THIS these are the problems and why nobody wants to deal with these killers. The killer will lose only if they are a moron who can't aim whatsoever and has no idea how to use the killer.
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letting people attempt unhooks when there's 20 seconds left on the timer
Something to this effect sounds like the best solution, imo.
However long it takes to complete 3 unhook attempt animations + 3 seconds = time remaining in stage 1 when you are allowed to unhook. Slippery Meat then doubles the time window in which you can attempt unhooks.
Remove the penalty for attempting unhooks, and then we collectively acknowledge that attempting to unhook yourself when a teammate is running to unhook you is detrimental as it prevents certain teammate perks from activating (Deliverance, We'll Make It, etc.)
It feels bad to be left on hook until Stage 2, knowing you may as well have attemped to unhook immediately. And it feels bad to have a teammate determine the outcome of a trial for everyone.
Kill two birds with one stone.0 -
I suppose, I guess from my experience I just look at the killer I go against and I just change how I play depending on who I'm going against. I don't play the same way that I play versus let's say, a Dracula compared to a Singularity.
I change how I play depending on what it is I'm going against, so some people might not like Singularity (I don't mind him). I actually don't mind any killer in general.
I typically hate Weskers a lot, but I still like being in chase with him. I go against many Hillbillies, still don't like going against him, but I still can generally loop a Hillbilly. I just don't think it takes much skill to ride a survivor into a dead zone but that's just me personally speaking — I still will try my best and loop how I do against anything, but I've been playing since 2020/2021 and to me, Trickster and a Singularity is very easy to loop. Same for the other examples, Xenomorph where I crouch repeatedly to avoid his tail attack, Knight (I watched OhTofu) counter them, so I know how to counter them (a guard is on you, just push your survivor body against a window or a downed pallet (don't take the vault) and you can trick the guard into weird pathing to prevent being hit).
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Yeah exactly. I was thinking about getting back into swf but not like a sweat squad because like i want to relax and not take this game so seriously, but at least people you can depend on and coordinate with, because solo is just insane right now, alot of the strats the killers are using once you go up you gotta have coordination on some level to have like a chance. like at this point they don't even have to be super good. just like someone i know isn't going to stand in a corner while other people are pre-occupied for various reasons or dc because something didn't go their way or as an f-university to the killer out of spite, sending hates messages to the killer, and shouting over comms. I'm also a single player girly at heart. I totally get that, I love a good story game or a good strategy game. I like multiplayer looter shooters. I wish there were more multiplayer story games though to play with my friends. I think with solo you feel like you have to be okay with accomplishing nothing most of the time, and I can see and totally understand why new player retainability is so hard because if you don't know anyone this game is really difficult to learn, and with no sense of accomplishment(losing mostly) I imagine most people burn out pretty quickly because they aren't getting that dopamine hit.
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Pretty sure the thing with the vaulting is just a bug and yes I am indeed saying that I have seen the damn guards walking through a wall out of the blue and hitting me. Singularity's problem is how easy it is to spam the cameras until he gets a slipstream which is very fast and as for Xenomorph pretty sure crouching does not counter the tail. Literally all xenomorphs aimg either when you are vaulting and placing a pallet or into your body not above your crouched head so that does not work at all. But yeah you are right you gotta think differently for them but still your thinking does not help. You cant counter singularity powers cause emps take so long to print xenomorph has turrets that you gotta find a strategic place to put them but eh most people got no idea where and even if you do after they are destroyed there is not much that can be done.
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Oh yeah, for sure! I played solo-queue for pretty much my whole time of playing Dead By Daylight believe it or not. 😂
I actually like solo-queue to a certain extent over a SWF or duo sometimes. It's nice to like, hm - shut your brain off and just focus on the game without having to do xyz callout. You're primarily focused on yourself, yeah I'll do protection hits if someone is on death hook, I'll pressure gens when needed, etc, etc, etc. Solo-queue is a whole vibe for me, so I don't mind it because sometimes I just wanna play without having to talk, lol. I just relax and chill basically, haha.
SWF is nice, I'm a competitive player - but at the same time, I'll laugh and crack jokes at the same time. I do want to learn clock callouts, I have a friend who plays comp who does them but it's just a lot of muscle memory and knowing orientation of maps. 😭 I like outplaying, outsmarting, looping, doing gens, making risky plays (that aren't dumb lol), the whole nine yards. I don't normally get upset or mad with people, I mean - years ago I was on the DBD forums, a certified lurker as you will, and I'd just add random people from the DBD looking for group section or whatever and I used to play with this one guy who would urban evade everywhere and even though I would get frustrated with it now, I just dealt with it with him. ☠️ I never try to tell people how to play, what to do, etc. The only time I offer advice is when someone asks me for it, I don't really backseat game (I found it annoying when I played Fortnite yeaaaars ago and an old guy friend did it to me, so I try not to do it to others!).
But if you want advice, I give it. I play with less experienced people, so I have the patience of a saint for the most part. I take the game seriously but not too seriously!
What type of single player games do you like? Multiple choice related ones?
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No, I have a video of me literally looping Xenomorph - injured, mind you - of me continually crouching under a pallet and avoiding his tail attack - just need precision and timing.
What I like to do against Singularity - let's say, someone is on hook and typically Singularity likes to put cameras down near the hooked survivor so I make sure I always have an EMP on me at all times.
If you don't take the time to get an EMP and actually interact with Singularity's inherent counters, of course you'll have a horrible time. I went against a Singularity last night, knockout slugging Singularity on Coldwind and got a four man out in a duo SWF. Singularity is manageable, but if your mindset is just I'm going to hate going against xyz killer and not learn proper counters, yeah, sure it'll be a rough time for anybody.
I like to put Xenomorph's turrets near pallets and jungle gyms instead of routinely directly on the gen like others do. It allows for ease of looping, Xeno gets slowed down due to the turrets, and even then you need to set up many turrets with Xeno. Again, if you take the time to learn proper counterplay and adapt to the situations in front of you, you will have a more fun time in the game.
Sure, I'm upset I can't crouch tech a Blight, Hillbilly, or Demogorgon but I still fundamentally know how to loop them without depending on it. I found out about the tech months ago and for years, I looped all three without relying on it. It's removed, guess what? I still have the fundamental skills to outplay them because when you play hundreds to thousands of games against these killers and don't DC or give up, you learn a thing or two and they're not hard to deal with even if I myself dislike them. Do I think they're strong? (Wesker, Blight, and Hillbilly)? Yeah. Would I ban them from my matches if I had the option to? No. Would I delete them from the game? No. I just play against them and have the mindset that I know anything I will do is better than dying, giving up, or dcing and I wish MORE people had that mindset instead of kill me, I'm done like ?????
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@HeroLives , I responded to you but I'm gonna give Behavior some leeway because I edited it and got an error lol.
If it doesn't show up, I'll retype what I said as I don't want to make a duplicate comment in the forums. 😂 Always rushing to type and I barely proofread, but if you wanna play I'd be down to play! I play on PS5, but I don't mind Discord. Always nice to play with another girl and I'm quite inclusive and open-minded, I don't mind playing sometime if you wanna exchange information. 😊
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don’t worry I read it all before it got error’d away. Yeah same I don’t like to back seat game either. Mostly just giggle and be also that reliable person. Like my idea of playing with someone is “yeah nobody is coming to get me, can you come get me? Is anyone coming for you? Where you at I need a heal?” My main goal isn’t to chase until caught I mostly try to lose line of sight and break chase. I can confirm I don’t run urban evasion, nor self care. I usually come with stealth/chase/sometimes info, and usually a brown Medkit with no add ons for emergencies, or whatever whacky build my brain came up with that I want to try out bc it looks like it gives synergies. No clickies or bangs though, and may the entity spare you if you ask me to use them(I try not to be evil). Solo is super nice though when you don’t want to talk and just want to clear your head, I agree and totally get that.
Comp looks cool, I watch some videos sometimes, it would be neat to learn call outs, I think. I’m not a looping god though, I’m decent but yeah, I don’t think I’d ever make the cut tbh.
I have a massive collection of games but these are games/full collections I’ve played and enjoyed:
Detroit become human, the sims, mortal kombat, final fantasy, nigh, Elden ring, tiny Tina, midnight suns, destiny, resident evil, the evil within, silent hill, baldurs gate, Diablo, Skyrim. Fallout, mass effect, the dark pictures anthology, spider man, Batman, god of war, stray, dark alliance, need for speed, vampyr, dragon age, the forest, ark survival evolved, freed fall, outlast, tomb raider, black ops, the last of us, days gone, the wolf among us, the outer worlds, heavy rain, South Park, metal gear solid, until dawn. I’m all over the place to be honest. What about you?
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Yeah, it's honestly crazy because I usually get the error and it posts anyways but the forums just decided to delete my comment I guess. 😂
Yeah, I try to be as logical and efficient as possible (sometimes I make mistakes, but that's us for humans anyways. 🙃) I'll heal when asked, I always try to hook rescue before someone reaches second stage even if it means I will go on the hook instead, to me - extending your teammate's time in the game is invaluable so I really try to go for unhooks as 1v3s are hard to manage. However, if I simply cannot get the save, I will just leave and let the person die (an example being a camping Hillbilly and I'm already injured) it's physically impossible for me to do it, so I sadly had to let the random die. 😔
I also do unique builds, I try to find small little synergies with specific builds. My most recent little experiment was with Object of Obsession, I know, tunnel target lol but I typically do well in chase! I actually paired with Scene Partner, along with my usual two perks Deja Vu and Sprint Burst and I honestly was having a blast. 😊 I slapped it on my Dwight and you just hear him go - "ooouh", lmao it's so funny.
I think that's why I'm not as burnt out or prone to go next, I always have different builds on all of my survivors and it freshens up the game for me. I don't run the same build over and over again because honestly I get bored, so that's why I love Dead By Daylight a lot - the amount of synergies you can make it quite interesting to me. Reminds me of Mass Effect 3 Online, which I played a ton of haha.
I'll respond to the one about video games in a DM because I saw you give me one, but we share similar games in common.
I would definitely recommend The Witcher 3 if you haven't tried it, don't be deterred from thinking you need to play the prior ones (even though I want to play them myself, you can easily get into the Witcher 3 as it recaps the story if you're a Playstation player on your end, as we don't have a way to play the prior entries. 🙃 But it's really good and definitely up your alley!
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yeah exactly we play similarly. I make whatever call I have to in order to stop it from becoming a 3v1 as long as possible. If they’re snowballing too fast though sometimes I just let it happen instead of become the snowball(I don’t really run second chance perks, I suppose I can throw on one though if I need to because back to back matches or something with hovering nearbys , I think deep down most of us are a little boosted sometimes 😂 I don’t claim to be a god, but I do know some things about some things. There’s a lot of miles on these survivor tires. Also yes absolutely without saying If im not building other emblems the lightbringer is strong in me 🫡 I’ve been known to be yoinked a few times due to dedication of the cause in dire situations. Sometimes every second counts , sue me 🤷♀️ I know exactly the kind of Billy’s you’re talking about. I saw they buffed him back and I heavy sighed bc they were right back to that strat on crack. It’s so rinse repeat and they’ve got that timing down to a science. It’s really hard to not get sucked into it as solo, you kinda have to let them die or feed the beast, unfortunately.
That actually sounds like fun, I’ll probably try that build, see how it goes. I was having a lot of fun with light weight, light-footed, lucky break, and overcome before 2v8. That fourth one you can use whatever exhaustion you want, or quick and quite goes really well with it too, or finesse.
Okay yeah cool I’ll check my messages!
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Yeah, I really try my best at the game and I'm what I like to call an analytical nerd lol. I've been playing the game for so long, so I have built in rules ingrained into me for playing solo-queue so much, haha.
I really do think there is valuable skills you can learn in solo-queue, it's really like you're tossed into the wild when you first start. Luckily for me, before I played — I watched a ton of Noob3, Probzz, Naymeti, and many others with a dash of killer content creators on the side (Otzdarva, Scott Jund, Zubatlel ((even though he started as a survivor main I believe)), and even Hens). Probably why I try to be as nuanced and balanced as I am with my takes, plus I played killer for a few months and recently (an Onryo lover over here). I just don't really play killer as much because I personally find it boring for myself, I really don't know why to be honest. I think it's just you can relax and do your own thing in solo-queue and even though it's like you're babysitting randoms, especially ones that do questionable things it's always hectic and random making me get out of my comfort zone.
When I play killer, I get a little bored I'm not gonna lie - I already know the basics of how to play killer because I started by watching both sides from the very start. Granted, I never played killer years and years ago, but I have played it recently and I still can 3k/4k easily as Onryo. I struggle with some killers, but that's to be expected - I really enjoy Trapper even though I'd argue him and Myers are down there in low tier.
I used to run Off The Record, Deja Vu, and Sprint Burst a lot in my builds back before Distortion was nerfed - I wasn't a huge Distortion player typically, I did use it, but I like to have my build play into one another so it would have to be a specific build lol - think of like Poised and Distortion or Hope and old Wake Up and Distortion (obviously don't use Wake Up anymore). If I have a build that's specifically designed for me to get ######### done, I just would slap Distortion on it.
Distortion to allow me to render BBQ and Chili useless, Poised to pop the gen and go incognito.
Distortion to do the same from above, Wake Up to allow me to help my teammates get out by opening the door faster (I replaced Distortion with Wake Up, but you get what I'm putting down) - I put a lot of thought into my builds 🥲.
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