http://dbd.game/killswitch
Map variants have been removed.
Comments
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Yeah, because dead sands isn't a variation of eyrie of crows, it's a separate map in the same realm
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It is definitely iconic, that is true. I've just never really liked Suffocation Pit 1 because of its layout. It encourages 3-gens due to its shape and strong center, never found it fun on either side tbh
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I didn’t say RNG would be removed - I said it needs to be improved and I doubt it will be.
There may be ‘randomised elements’ to maps but not enough and there are maps which I know there will always be consistent spawns. A fantastic example is the cinema map in the garden of joy realm. There is always two generators close to each other in the middle, there is always a generator by the statue and there is always a generator in the upstairs projector room, the shack is always to the right of the map and the basement always seems to be in it, there is always two ‘double pallet’ loops quite close to each other and the parking lot is always devoid of anything useful. This has not changed and it’s (this level of predictability) the same for other map variants too. Even the multiple Badham variants had a predictability to gens, hook sand resource spawns.
If you’re going to go down to one variant of map per realm it needs to be completely randomised each time.
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Less Badham → good
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I got bad news for you bout Coldwind
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I am very happy to see them removed. I am tired of playing on multiple Badham maps, every night, in both roles. The maps were bloated. Map design should rightfully indicate SIGNIFICANT changes. Minor changes never belonged in the game in the first place. I should feel I am exploring another area of the same realm. Not on the same map, but slightly different.
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About time. The only thing they did was make learning the maps harder, and in the case of Ormond, borderline impossible to get the Mine (I've literally only been on it ONCE since it released).
I never did figure out which Badham was which, and I was around to see their creation (and hated their inception even back then).
All they did was serve as bloat that made the game less accessible to players. No one asked for them, so many people outright called them a hindrance to game accessibility, and they were just a downright bad idea from start to finish. Maybe now they can actually balance the maps as they are instead of band-aid fixing them by making them less common (okay, we know that will never happen, but my point stands: instead of having to balance multiple variations of one map, they can focus on what makes that map bad IN THE FIRST PLACE!)
Post edited by Rizzo on3 -
Sure ill take you up on that challenge, You could just @ me if you want my attention, instead of hiding behind "to the person who"
- The Maps were fine to play, about as equal to other maps in the game. There were no leaning to one side to be worthy of note.
- If you felt like the bloated the map system, then BHVR could have made the choice of selecting Map types in a Realm before picking Variants. There is absolutely no need to waste 100s of hours of Map Team team time. BHVR has not answered this question yet.
- The claim that was less accessible to new players is not something that has been proven, I find it much more likely that new players are somewhat always confused about where they are, even on maps that have 1 version like RPD.
I would like BHVR to pull out the proof for this, but I dont think they have it I don't think new players are magically going to improve their playstyle from this update forward, seems very unlikely to me. If you think overwise please demonstrate it. - You double down on Point 3 like 4 times, I refer to you to point 3.
- No one asked for it, is such a weird argument. Because indeed many things in this game isnt exactly asked for, so we should remove anything that someone didnt directly asked for? I dont know why people make this argument, or why they think its worth mentioning. Like BHVR isn't a restaurant, they make changes they themselves ask for.
- "Maybe now they can actually balance the maps", People treat the removal of Map Variants as a new paradigm for Map Balance with like 100% evidence that will happen. I dont even think BHVR is under the impression that the maps, where awful balancewise they dont even say so.
- In your final point you say, that removing Map Variants will reduce the things the map balance team has to do. I would refer you back to point 6, you have no proof this will happen. But a better counter is actually, the more map variants there are the the more places BHVR could change a map for the better with minimal effect on overall balance to see whats better.
That being IF the Map Variants where unreasonably balanced which does not seem to be the case.
Indeed now BHVR has even less ways to train on map balance.
To me its simple why you are wrong. Refer back to points 1 to 7.
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Map tweaks and reworks have been happening for YEARS, so there's no reason to believe that changes won't continue to be made, as you seem to be implying. As stated before, if and when they finally decide to make maps like Badham less Survivor-sided, they'd only need to rework one map rather than five. Map variants also don't actually provide variety as you believe. Instead of getting five chances to get Badham, you only get one. That means a better likelihood to get a different map entirely. That is variety.
Your comments are just your opinions, which is absolutely fine. But it seems weird to me that you only counter others' opinions with "you have no proof," as if trying to invalidate their opinions. You don't have any proof for your opinions either, but that doesn't make them any less valid.
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Now we just need to get rid of Badham I, and we'll be in good shape
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You seem to ignore the me addressing that the problem of Treating Map Variants as full maps instead of Variants could have been addressed by making changes to the way Realms are selected. I don't want to have to keep repeating myself, but it seems I have to:
it should work like this:
Roll for Realm. Ormond won.
ormond has 2 maps, 1 with 3 variants.
rolling for maps. Ormond Lodge won.
Rolling for Ormond Lodge Variant
variant 2 won.
to game.Ergo no reason to remove the, we could keep both for even more variety.
Honestly If you have a problem with me demanding proof for claims made in defense of the Map Variant Removal, I find that weird too. Things ought to happen for good reasons, so provable and demonstrable reasons have to be present to justify its removal, I hope you can agree to at least that. The second being I don't make wild unsubstantiated claims to defend the things I talk about and if I do, I make it obvious that it its a guess by me, by saying that.
I know I know, it sucks to get asked to demonstrate why your beliefs correct, which is why I don't try to offer feedback based on what I believe is a good idea, I do it based on if it makes logical sense and has good reasons justifying it. Which is why me analyzing comments for logic and good reasons.
But honestly, you are right, BHVR are the ones who should supply the good reasons why they are doing things, that would be much much much better for discussion, most of the time I just get spitballed by someone who think they are correct about everything and instead of justifying their ideas to me, they just end up repeating themselves. Luckily I do find it entertaining to sort through someone's logic for a suggestion.
Maybe my approach is bad, but I dont think Game Design should be a democracy, I still think BHVR should make changes for a good reason rather than, Oh people dont like this. Which is why I took issue with Mandy's response, people not liking something is a reason to dive into it and figure out why its not liked. Not just removing it.
But @CrypticGirl if you think there is a part of my discussions where I made bad logical sense or made a claim I could not demonstrate without making clear it was unfounded, then please point it out so I can correct the record, its what Im all about.
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Hmm, it's clear I won't be able to change your mind and you won't change mine (it's kind of why I DIDN'T tag you, since I knew it would get us nowhere, though you also failed in your own logic by not pinging Mandy earlier), but I'll humor your points for a bit.
- In a game where maps are so rarely truly balanced without leaning to one side or the other, I find this hard to believe, ESPECIALLY when four of those were Badham. The fact that the feedback they got, as Mandy said, was "inherently negative, with the majority of players disliking them," as well as they weren't as good as the originals tells me that most people DIDN'T think they were fine to play, for one reason or another.
- That's… how map selection ALREADY works (At least, how I thought it worked given their previous statements, but now I'm not sure given that Reddit statement. But I already typed this whole thing out so I'll keep it, fully expecting you to dismantle it and throw it aside like you seem to do with everyone else's points). It's the whole reason why map offerings bring you to a realm (with the irritating exception of the Dvarka maps). However, for the map repeat prevention, they counted as different maps, so it was entirely possible to get THE SAME MAP, with a slightly tweaked layout, several times in a row (it happened to me with Ormond. Multiple times, and not once during those streaks did I get the Mine). And if they're going to go with realm repeat prevention, that would just make it HARDER to get a map you want if it's in a realm with a variation (I again point to the Mine. I would love the get that map since it looks really cool instead of multiple Resorts back to back). I will say though, your statement to Cryptic does have some validity to it, but I'm not sure DbD's spaghetti code would be able to manage it considering the game was never built with variations in mind.
- Unless you're able to pull a new player out of a hat, I'm not sure what kind of tangible proof you're looking for here. However, I can apply basic theory and common sense. Every 1.5-3 months (depending on whether or not they want to throw a Survivor only mid-chapter in for some reason), up to 6 new perks, and entire new character, and potentially a new map get added to the game. And when you add map variations, that only compounds how daunting it all gets. The loops are procedurally generated, and could perhaps be more procedural, but you're still able to learn the main layout of the map over time, which is good game design. But suddenly, you get a map that has the same name as another map and all of the same structures, but has an entirely different layout. Not only do you have to learn this entirely new layout, you have to figure out how to differentiate between them when you do get them (especially since I don't remember seeing any of the Ormond maps being numbered like Badham was, but that could be me being annoyed at not getting the Mine… again). That is the exact opposite of good game design. And since BHVR seems to actually be trying to improve the new player experience for once, not having 13 tweaked versions of other maps to memorize will only benefit newcomers. The rest of these issues I don't think can be addressed (kind of a natural part of being a live service game), but it's something.
- Maybe it's just the autism speaking here, but I'm not sure why this needed to be a separate point. So… refer to point 3.
- Perhaps I worded this wrong, but the fact that you are one of only THREE people I've seen complain tells me all I need to know. I suppose I will concede this one though, since I sure as hell didn't ask for D&D and still wound up with my favorite Killer and Survivor out of it.
- After my initial statement you quoted, you're just putting words into my mouth. I never claimed that BHVR WILL better balance the maps (although, as we'll get to with point 7, I do believe it will be better than the nothing it currently is). What gives you the idea that BHVR is under no impression that the maps were awful? You keep asking for proof for everyone's claims, but unless you work on BHVR's map team, I don't think you'll be able to provide proof of your own. Absence of evidence (in this case, not directly saying the maps were bad) is not evidence of absence.
- Having more map variants would actually make things harder for BHVR. Instead of, say Badham, having 5 versions to constantly check and update, they have ONE, singular version to monitor. That puts CONSIDERABLY less work on the map balance teams and does allow them to more quickly change maps that are problematic rather than trying to figure out if changing something on one structure to fix one variation winds up screwing up all of the other variations (since they're the same tiles, any change to one would affect the others). Whether they will or not remains to be seen, but again, BHVR does seem to be trying to listen to the community for once.
Personally, I think the way they're doing things with Forsaken Boneyard, having Dead Sands be a "variation" of Eyrie while still having its own unique identity, to be the correct way to go about variations (whether Dead Sands is actually any good balance wise right now has yet to be decided).
I understand your perspective, and normally I'd agree that removing content is the wrong way to go. This is just not one of those times. But again, I don't expect to change your opinion and I don't think you'll be able to change mine, or really anyone else's, since you're basically off in your own corner on this.
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The Community Manager does not respond to everything she can, this is not how developer feedback on us works, she read it anyway cause its her job to read it, even if I screw up pinging her. Mandy clarified the position of BHVR and I still think its worth the critique. Which is ironic because you say I cant change your mind, yet in the end of your reply you say we basically agree on the same thing. Removing content is bad. There is no question about this.
- Take a look at the unofficial map stats trackers then, none of them are more grossly unbalanced than the current map pool.
We also lack severe confirmation from BHVR that the maps are considered unbalanced by them, its not a point BHVR has brought up so its up to others to demonstrate it. - (You dont need to make a point to make a point if you find conflicting evidence, just acknowledge the point.)
Yes. the point about not treating Map Variation as Map Types of a Realm. It has gotten a good response on reddit too.
Idd like to see BHVR respond to that. - "Unless you're able to pull a new player out of a hat", I can infact, I just recently added 4 new players to the game via the 2v8 from before the RE 2v8. We have been playing since then. And it really stunned me, 4 adult men, cant even remember basics when it comes to where anything is in this game. Small sample sure, but they play well enough that I dont believe the claim that, New players need to learn where everything is and that Map Variants somehow makes them so confused that they cant play anyway. I don't think it is so confusing as people have made it out to me here.
- Its because you repeat yourself, dont float any diagnose about here. please don't say others are things like that here.
Name-calling is the worst. - "the fact that you are one of only THREE people I've seen complain tells me all I need to know." what is this supposed to mean? There is nothing wrong with me, this just seems to be a jab at me rather than making a good faith discussion here.
Yes, good you concede it its a very bad argument. Why even make it a point then? Great you enjoy Lich, I do too. - I am not putting words in your mouth, I didnt say you claimed heaven here. I said others had, because its all based on that BHVR COULD fix all the maps according to you, but It falls over when I ask, well how do you know that will happen?
6.2 "What gives you the idea that BHVR is under no impression that the maps were awful?" When you say Awful do you mean unbalanced to the point they need to be removed or just "disliked" to the point of being removed, Cause I think there is a very meaningful difference. Additionally, Yes I ask for the reason what people say. I even asked BHVR they have not agreed. I agree "Absence of evidence (in this case, not directly saying the maps were bad) is not evidence of absence" but that isnt evidence for anyone and I was not the one who claimed the maps were unbalanced. That was someone else. - Considering how they have not made many significant changes to the maps over the years, It clearly isnt very hard to maintain. Ofc that assumes that BHVR does their job, which I am fine with assuming. But since you don't you still have a burden of proof. Furthermore I am responding to points most of the time
If someone claims a map is unbalanced, they should provide evidence.
If you claim the map is balanced, you should provide evidence to counter their argument.
If you just say "I don’t think so," you're expressing doubt, not necessarily making a claim.
(You're questioning their assertion rather than asserting the opposite.)
And honestly, people love expressing unbalance without providing evidence on these forums.
Even if I assume BHVR is doing their job, its still up to anyone else to prove that its unbalanced. Not me.
Thanks for the Tango, tho you dont need to respond to humor me, I am on these forums clearly as both a excise in logic and love of the game. And I know the developers do enjoy seeing discussion here with a bit more logic structure. (They told me.)
Ill also slam BHVR when I think they do something wrong, because that is what feedback is all about and BHVR still responds very well to logical and reasoned arguments in regards to their plans, maybe they find I make really good points and revert it.
Mostly Im just hoping for deeper explanations of what's the reasons for its removal, because I certainly think I challenged the given reasons well so far. It could also be that they double down and say, "no really buddy, map variations were really bad for us"
which is fine, Im not demanding perfect logic from BHVR here either.-5 - Take a look at the unofficial map stats trackers then, none of them are more grossly unbalanced than the current map pool.
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Not a fan of the loss of some maps, but…getting rid of the Badham variants is a 10/10 move and worth the loss of the rest.
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I didn't expect I'd change your mind, and I'm not exactly the best at expressing myself (you have no idea how many times I rewrote things trying to get across what I wanted to say before basically giving up and sending it), so I'll leave it at that. Just one more point here:
"Its because you repeat yourself, dont float any diagnose about here. please don't say others are things like that here.
Name-calling is the worst."My dude, I wasn't diagnosing anyone. I'M autistic, hence "Maybe it's just the autism speaking here". If I'm calling anyone names, it's MYSELF.
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Don't feel bad about not changing my mind, I don't write to do the same, to me its more about a process, a process of giving an idea a fair chance to be criticized. See it as an exercise in expressing yourself, you will get better at it. It also helps knowing a lot about logical structure, arguments and those logical fallacies.
Sorry, I didn't realize exactly what you meant by your point 4, that fact that called your that and then took a jab at me in point 5 was kind of suspect and confusing. I would have written, "my autism" honestly referring to it as the and not who has it, don't leave it up to me, so I shall refused the whole subject no matter what.
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That is correct. This change also helps to weaken the advantage of the “Windows of Opp.” perk a little. Because we have fewer variants and this is also a welcome change for new players like me
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it doesn’t weaken it - it just makes it less relevant as you’ll be able to learn where most things are as there are a tonne of consistently placed resources on every map variation.
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yes 👍️
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I'm very glad they removed them. Instead of making variants, devs should put time to make a new maps. Something that is actually interesting and far more exciting.
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This'll go a long ways to helping newer and returning players learn maps faster. Badham II is gone, rejoice!
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Suffo Pit II was fine, imo. Can’t say I had strong feelings for the other Macmillan variants tho.
The Badham variants I will certainly not miss, however.
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