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Good survivors are learning to counter the ghoul

Reinami
Reinami Member Posts: 6,611
edited April 2025 in General Discussions

Give it time, 3 games in a row now i lost with no kills because survivors are starting to learn the counterplay.

Comments

  • ControllerFeedback
    ControllerFeedback Member Posts: 559

    I think it's moreso good teams are learning to counter Ghoul. I think Ghoul's macro ability is just so good right now that only SWFs that are on point with the comms and have the perks to counter common pressure strategies are capable of dealing with it. It also just so happens that these groups tend to share their chase counterplay observations (like paying extra attention to positioning on tiles and leap cooldowns so you don't get enrage vault speed'd, for instance), so games against them feel that much different.

    Still needs some minor nerfs to help out solos IMO (map adjustments would go way harder but w/e). I hope they don't completely gut him, but I wouldn't be surprised if they do initially, because the stats have to be brutal.

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 6,611

    So the killer should be nerfed so teams can stomp him even harder? You don't balance games around average skill players.

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 6,611

    So you balance games around average skill players then? That is what you think should be done?

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 6,611
    edited April 2025

    Ok great.

    Now lets take that logic to its ultimate conclusion then. Because you cannot say that, and not have the following statement be true.

    Nurse then needs to be massively buffed, because when BHVR releases data on nurse for all queues (the average player) she is often one of the lowest if not THE lowest kill rate killer in the game, often far below 50% kill rate (when they balance for a 60% kill rate).

    So, if we balance the game around average players, you MUST take it to its logical conclusion to maintain consistency and demand that nurse also needs to buffed more than any other killer in the game given her current state.

    Would you agree with that statement?

    Unless of course you mean that the game should only be balanced around average SURVIVOR players. In which case, all i can say is that it shows extreme bias toward one side in that situation.

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 6,611

    See, you aren't willing to admit the truth. Now you suddenly want to rework a killer who is undertuned based on your logic. That isn't the case here.

    You either balance the game around average skill players, and by definition you must also demand that nurse needs to be buffed

    Or you balance the game around top skill players, and then we can have a real conversation.

    If you aren't willing to admit it, then there really isn't much else to say.

  • ControllerFeedback
    ControllerFeedback Member Posts: 559

    I mean they have to account for all skill levels. And when someone like me who isn't particularly amazing, who plays on console with all the woes that brings, and hasn't played all that much recently can come along and obliterate most random pubs for hours in the first couple of days after release and that seems to be the experience that most people are experiencing, then yes I think there's something that needs to be adjusted here. It just takes so little effort to pubstomp with this killer compared to others.

    Like again, I don't want him to be completely neutered, and in fact there are some oddities about his mechanics that I think could be improved upon to make him feel even better to play than he does now. But if he is harshly nerfed because his kill rate is absurdly high and because most people are having trouble figuring out the basics against him (or if said basics aren't enough in a solo queue environment) I would understand.

  • ChuckingWong
    ChuckingWong Member Posts: 1,263

    •Kaneki:
    …. unsurprisingly (not just you, many do this) you are taking 0% into account on your own skill level. Be humble, the killer just came out.

    From a previous conversation of you not using knights power in chase, I dont know how good you really are at killer. I am leaning on not that good when comments like this come out.

    Should probably make a few vids of your play with Kaneki before we can go further. Theres free software (OBS) thats easy to setup.


    •Balance
    Ill say that yes, we should balance around average players. Not JRM. I dont play dbd as a career and neither do the majority of players. BHVR has been doing this incorrectly though for awhile and have been balancing around the higher end, not the highest, but the higher end.

    My take for awhile has always been. If you want to que up with a full team, you get custom games. Not pub matches. Or there needs to be some incentive as a killer when it happens in your matches.


    •Nurse
    The brief thing about you guys going on about nurse?
    1) Theres a few things they could do to fix her, starting with more cooldown to her blinks. Just a couple of seconds maybe.
    2) Remove bookmark, you are a troll if you use this addon. (used to main her so I judge heavily)
    3) Possibly do testing to reduce distance on blinks as well. Maybe bracelet level (20% reduced)

  • Slurpin
    Slurpin Member Posts: 140

    Honestly a very important thing to say. People would blame anything other than their skill level in this game.

    And let's face it, it's probably the truth in this situation. And a lot of other whiny threads.

  • NewPlayer100102
    NewPlayer100102 Member Posts: 638

    I enjoyed the part of this thread where it was quite reasonably well reasoned that Nurse needs some buffs.

    @Reinami .

    Now all you need to do is rally the local echo chamber behind you and make it happen!

    Anyways, in the world we play in, yes they are coming up with ways to work around Kaneki's abilities.

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 6,611

    Ok, fine, lets take THAT logic to its final conclusion then.

    You think nurse should be made easier while nerfing her for high level play.

    GREAT lets do the same for survivors. Maybe we can nerf some of the really good loops in the game like killer shack, and jungle gym, and remove all of these crazy connected tiles, and make every pallet mindgameable after it has been dropped. Average skill survivors aren't going to be going against top tier killer players who know how to mindgame a pallet properly, and at the top level, survivors won't have guaranteed safety like they do on the majority of maps.

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 6,611

    If you believe the game should balanced around average skill players, it is the only logical conclusion you can come to, unless you are extremely biased.

  • bashfulboog
    bashfulboog Member Posts: 83

    love the people commenting "skill issue" as if the ghoul having an AUTO AIMING FREE FIRST HIT EVERY SINGLE TIME isn't the most BS thing ever. goodnight <3

  • NewPlayer100102
    NewPlayer100102 Member Posts: 638

    Yes.

    But how to get the mob behind the idea?

    Anyways, I appreciate the perspective of the thread, but I get, regardless of approach, this isn't going to move forward today.

  • danielmaster87
    danielmaster87 Member Posts: 10,719

    Doesn't surprise me. I don't feel control when I play him either. There's no killer that efficient gens and looping won't trump.

  • danielmaster87
    danielmaster87 Member Posts: 10,719

    Dude, I've been saying the same for a while. Except they're not balancing for average players, they're balancing for the lowest level. The reason you don't do that, as a developer, is because it makes no sense. Casuals do not care about balance, or at least shouldn't have a say in it, because they have no clue what they're talking about. But this is what BHVR has done, is balance around them, and so any competent survivors who recognize the strength of their tools can just bully the killer, because he's not a threat.

  • danielmaster87
    danielmaster87 Member Posts: 10,719

    That's such a copout. I don't factor survivor win streaks in my arguments, even though I can, especially the "don't get hooked once" streaks. And the killer ones, you're talking about people who can be counted on 1 hand, maybe 2, and who've invested like 3000 hours or more just into 1 killer. And this whole idea is based on assuming that all killers do this. They don't. They're unable to get even a 1-win streak of the survivors play good. I know, because I and others multi-thousand hour players have had nights full of losses, including 0k's. What do those streaks matter to us there?

  • Rogue11
    Rogue11 Member Posts: 1,972

    Statistically absurd winstreaks are way too common on killer for a game that supposedly has functioning matchmaking. Congrats to those who put 3k hours on a killer. They should be able to consistently get wins. They should even be able to win a majority of their matches (70-80%). However, they should be facing difficult competition for those wins, and should not be winning 10-1000 straight matches, most of them without really being pressed at all.

    Meanwhile i have 11k hours in the game and probably 80% on survivor, and would be lucky to escape 3 matches in a night of playing, let alone consecutively. Survivor win streaks are much less prevalent, both in frequency and magnitude, because the game currently lacks effective skill expression for survivors.

  • danielmaster87
    danielmaster87 Member Posts: 10,719

    But again, this is the problem with bringing this up: you don't know how common those streaks are. You might be able to come up with a list of 10 names, that you'll have to scour the Internet for, to find a sizeable pool of people who have done these really big streaks. And there's also a lot of assuming in that they didn't struggle for these wins. Obviously they didn't have to for a lot of them, because the game randomly gives you forced smurf matches. But there's far more where they did have to struggle, almost losing them their streak at 10 wins, or 20 wins, 50, 100, 150.

    And it's funny that your initial point is matchmaking, because you don't seem to connect it at all to your difficulty as survivor. If the matchmaking is messed up, wouldn't that be a bigger drag on your escape rate than anything the killer's doing in-match? You don't have much of a chance if the killer's actually trying to win, and only 1 or 2 on your whole team are doing the same, because of the matchmaking. This is what I've been trying to explain to people. You're conflating constant mismatches with a broken game state.