http://dbd.game/killswitch
Haste and Hinder not stacking is just the beginning. Be prepared
In the future everything will have a hard cap
My predictions:
Healing at 100% (Can't stack We Will Make It with Botany Knowledge, Circle of Healing or any other perk)
Repairing at 50%
Saving from the hook at 100% (if you have No One Left Behind then it doesnt matter if someone else has Leader or if you have Resilience, Desperate Measure or OoO)
Among other speed changes, possibly affecting blessing, cleansing, opening chests and gates as well
Comments
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Things not stacking is not the same as a hard cap, tho.
23 -
"it's just the beginning" I mean for many other changes
-2 -
Maybe. We’ll cross that bridge when we get there.
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I wouldnt be mad, that'd be balanced
-2 -
I think it sets a terrible precedent. I get the fear that new players are gonna face a Haste stacking and/or Hinder stacking combo, and be like, "The killer's way too fast! I can't do anything to get away!" But news flash, they do that anyway, whether the has Haste/Hinder or not. And dude, these people are complaining about killers using their entire build to pull off 1 combo. The strength of these combos is up for debate, but some of them really aren't strong.
Like, I had a friend years ago who we tried to body block a hook for, but because the Blight had Agitation, Iron Grasp, AND Mad Grit, he still got hooked after like 2 people going down for him. "The killer should not be able to carry me for that bleeping long!" and then he DC'd. And it's like, "Dude, had we not gone for a blocks, he would've been a 1-perk killer all match." It was our mistake! Yes, we didn't know he had those perks until it was too late, but that's the point of niche combos like that. The survivors shouldn't get to know them for free. Tangent, I know.
But Haste/Hinder combos similarly deprive killers of much needed other perks. I had a build which was STBFL/Rapid/Superior Anatomy/Unbound. It actually made tiles like shack playable for M1 killers (half the time, anyway). So I was excited for the upcoming Unbound buff, from 5% Haste to 10%. But the not stacking change just killed the build. Just imagine what's going on in the macro. Yes, the killer is using Haste and/or Hinder stacking to down survivors really quick, or make them play so safe they use up lots of pallets in a short time period. But that's simply them fulfilling the requirement of their role. You HAVE to down survivors back to back, with no breaks, to keep your momentum going. And all those perks contributing to better chase times, is at the cost of gen defence, and aura reading, and endgame stuff. Don't survivors WANT killers to not run that other stuff?
I'm just afraid this is gonna be the start of built-in perk lockout system. "You can't use this perk and this perk together, because that's too strong!" That's basically what they've done here. "You're not allowed to use synergistic perks to create strategies!" There's survivor perks as well which get messed up by this change. At least we won't have to deal with Made For This/Soul Pact combos. But survivor Haste stacking was always more problematic than the killer's, because killer going faster at least advances (or at least has the chance to advance) the match. Survivor Haste stacking just makes them borderline uncatchable, which prevents the killer from advancing their objective. The killer having the same just makes survivors have to play safer or loop better, as I've said. But this is all water under the bridge if this change goes through. I just wish the devs had focused on something different to balance the game. Wise man (not me) once said that speed differentials are bad design in this game, and I sort of agree. But now that it's been in for so long, we've become attached to it. It feels like the devs are just taking away fun combos and stuff.
-4 -
I hope aura stacking will be looked into.
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Maybe they will limit the amount of killers in any given match from 1 killer to 1 😲
Gg guys next game
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There would actually be so many different strategies and builds and playstyles killers could be using right now. But the devs nerfed so much, they funneled the players who wanted to get good with killer into playing the same way, because all their options were taken away.
-4 -
Let me guess, you just want all survivors to stand still while you down them all? At least that is what i read from this. Chases are not fun because you cant catch anyone (though killers do that all the time). So for you to actually have fun, the survivors need to be walking around looping points? Would that work for you?
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Weird how as they have added more and more perks, builds have become more and more homogenous. I don't like this direction.
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Because nothing has even come to close to stuff like DS, DH, OTR, etc on the survivor end. In fact, somehow those perks are considered bad, and anything weaker than them are considered super bad. On the killer end, you see way more variety than ever before, because people don't know what's good on killer anymore. The devs have literally kept the survivor meta the same for 7-8 years, and the killer meta is constantly changing because every time a new one arrives it gets nerfed.
-7 -
No. Strawman. People want interactive gameplay, right? I want it for both sides. I don't like survivors having check spots or hold W spots that guarantee 20-40 seconds of wasted killer time. People want chases to be fun, but where's the hype for them if 1) the survivor always gets to simply react to whatever the killer can do and extend the chase, and 2) if the killer only has time do like 5 chases before the gens are all done? Survivor is a super abusable role with all the stuff at their disposal. You just might not see that because the MMR system screws up your chances of being put on a good team, while it simultaneously ensures that the killer you're going against is always better than the average player on your team. So swf eats good, and everyone else pays.
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perk stacking being removed is a good thing
they can actually balance ######### properly without it being overpowered and unfair if it can be stackable8 -
Just the beginning of pushing for good game health overall, and just bad for individual creativity and certain niche builds, but it's necessary.
Half the time it's like:
BHVR buffs something → "Ugh, too strong now!"
BHVR nerfs it → "They're killing my build"
BHVR reworks something →"Why fix what isn't broken?"
People constantly ask for changes, and a quality of life update. When introduced into the public testing phase people just complain as if it will kill the game. They just can't win no matter what.
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Players demand better game balance then change their mind when it means losing their overtuned toys in the process.
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Exactly — players ask for balance, but then lose it when it affects their favorite overtuned builds. Makes me wonder if it’s mostly newer players reacting that way. I’ve been playing since late 2018 and honestly, I’ve seen way bigger changes. The game’s evolved a lot, and most updates — even the controversial ones — haven’t ‘killed the game’ like people claim. I get being attached to a build, but balance has to come first if we want the game to stay healthy.
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That's because killers have multiple versions of equally powerful perks that do the same thing (gen regression) while survivors have only had 2 marginally effective anti-tunnel perks for the game's existence. Survivors have had a grand total of 2 strong perks added since Zarina and both were heavily nerfed. Meanwhile just from the top 20 nightlight most used perks there i see Pain Res, Lethal, Nowhere To Hide, Grim Embrace, Friends Till The End, and Deadlock. You frame this as if the devs are "shaking up the meta" when in reality, they're power creeping old killer perks hard while keeping survivor perks the same or worse.
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^ this. It just makes sense to remove Haste-/Hindered-Stacking. Yes, players say that this limits build variety, but IMO something like stacking several Haste-Perks to be faster than the Killer should not exist. 9 out of 10 games it does not work anyway and in that 10th game a Killer has a miserable experience (and before 9 Survivor Teams had a miserable experience because of two people trying a gimmicky build).
It also helps with future Perk Design. The Devs should not have to balance with old Perks in mind. They should not have to create a Haste-Perk and then have to make it weak because the Survivor could pair it with Power of Two or something like that.
That being said, they can certainly buff more Perks when they remove the Interaction of Hindered- and Haste-instances.
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'At least haste stacking on killer advances the match!'
😭😭😭😭
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I do agree a lot of the current Haste perks should be buffed after the no-stack rule is implemented. They put forth a few in the PTB but there's more that could use more boosts. These perks should be useful enough that they can function properly in isolation without needing to be combined to be effective.
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Fair trade.
-1 -
Bingo. Hope to see it with more factors in the future, and the only issue is whether BHVR will give things adequate value to make up for removing stacking. Removing perk/item/addon/etc stacking allows them to make things more powerful since they will no longer be able to overlap, so its then just up to them to make sure things are worth using individually. They've done it in the past by nerfing addons and making a portion of them basekit, so I feel like they (probably) understand how to find that middle ground. I'd take stronger perks that don't stack over weaker perks that need to be stacked to get a decent-yet-necessary value any day.
…If they keep things too weak after removing stacking, however, I feel like they'll learn pretty quick that goes. Their track record for over-nerfing has me skeptical but hopeful.
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This content has been removed.
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Yup. What they usually mean is they want to be able to compete at levels they don't even belong in.
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I also hope that they do this with more things. E.g. Thana got nerfed not because it was too strong itself, but because it was used in Builds which let Gens take over 2 1/2 minutes to complete. If they would have added a maximum of Gen Repair time, it would have been fine.
Another thing was healing - the problem was never that people were healing faster, the problem was that builds existed which let Survivors self-heal in 4 seconds or so. Having a minimum healing time required would allow for stronger things in the game, but keeps them from being busted.
And this goes in both directions, there should be a min time for Gens and heals which should not be crossed and there should be a maximum time for Gens and Heals which should not be crossed. E.g. I am really not a fan of the Anti-Heal Build which is currently used more often on Killers with 40m Terror Radius (Distressing, Coulrophobia, Leverage, Gift of Pain/Sloppy Butcher). While I would not call it OP, I think there should be a hard cap to how slow healing can be.
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Haste/hindered is a completely different thing than something like healing.
Healing already has built in problems with stacking.
Buff it a 100%, save 8 seconds.
Buff it another hundred percent (200%), you only save 2.7 seconds.
The next 100% (300% total) only saves 1.3 seconds.
The next 100% (400% increase) only saves 0.8 seconds.
If they are to put a hard cap on it, it would be really high, and that is just to present theoretical stacking limits were multiple survivors could dedicate their entire builds to try and get a heal of a survivor before the killer could even recover. But the way each additional increase has less of an effect means this would be a very high number.
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Am I wrong on that? Please explain.
-4 -
This is one of my biggest gripes with the game. Like I vividly remembered when Machine Learning was reworked and it was for a short time really strong - well, not really strong, but you now only had to kick a gen once and if THAT compromised gen got finished, you could zoom over the map with +10% speed for a whole minute. It was stupidly fun, especially if combined with Batteries Included and Rapid Brutality.
During the zoomer moment of course the game was unbalanced and I could brute force literally any loop in the game, besides god pallets, obviously, but even though I played that combo exclusively for a couple of days, it never activated three times in one game, it happend a maximum of 2 two times and I had literally no control over it happening at all, as especially at the last 2 gens the survivors would often focus down the wrong gen.
So I had a combo that was stupidly strong and fun when it worked, but it was literally my whole build and would only activate one time, possibly two times, in one match, with the moving parts like Batteries Included still out of my hands and potentially dead perks.
But still, even though it was already niche at that point, Machine Learning was nerfed again and had its uptime reduced to 45s. It might not sound like much, but with all perks already accounted for, there was little to find survivors and that missing 15s very much meant that the whole combo was only good for one chase and then some.
All this talk was just to highlight, the fact, that niche builds always had a tough time in DBD and the meta was solidified and fossilized in stone for a reason: because it worked nearly all the time and gave value nearly every chase.
BUT this change is also an opportunity, as BHVR could now go all out with some of this niche perks and make them extremely impactful, for when they activate, without needing a whole bunch of other perks to stack. If Machine Learning, for example, gave +15% on its own, that would still allow this playstyle, but also free up the three other perk slots for anything I desired. This is HUUUGE. The problem is just to sell this to the other survivors, ie that a +15% Machine learning that activated a max of two times per match was still better, then the same old PainRes/Pop/NowhereToHide combo that every killer was otherwise running.
If BHVR plays this right, we could outsource the necessary perk stacking of a build and allow niche perks to be viable with one single perk, thus enabling a place in a players loadout much more often
-3 -
counter point
Survivors in mass hate how many anti-loop killers have been introduced. chases don’t last long(survivors love chase, not being down in 20 seconds flat) these maps have gotten so small and the amount of loops that buy any real time have been drastically down sized. So pitching a perk that even further pushes chase more in killer advantage would be a hard sell UNLESS they’re also pushing perks that extend survivor chases to counter that. Because if only one side is getting those kind of chase perks that makes chases more fun, and the other side isn’t well you’re killing the most fun part of the game for most people. Idk not nerfing duty of care would be a start, and buffing machine learning. People don’t like being a piñata one side or the other, they like competition.
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Just because killers have equally powerful perks, which is false, that doesn't mean the anti-tunnel perks aren't effective. They're always effective, because they're either deterring or punishing tunneling. Their existence has out-of-match influence on how the killer plays, leading to a marked decrease in tunneling. Even if no survivors have DS or OTR, the killer is afraid of them and so he doesn't tunnel a lot of the time when he should. None of the killer perks you mentioned are very good. Those are the top perks? Yeah, I don't doubt it, only because playing with much worse than those perks is shooting yourself in the foot. All of those "meta perks" have to all be combined with one another to be effective, and they take a lot of work or luck to activate.
Pain Res is locked to 1 use per survivor, so no matter what the regression amount (unless they change it to something crazy like 50%+, which they'd never do), the perk kills itself after basically 1 use. Same thing with Lethal. It doesn't do anything but show survivors for a few seconds at the very beginning, unless you combo it with other aura perks, which is more perk slot investment. Nowhere to hide does basically nothing, unless a survivor is crouched near the gen for some reason instead of holding W when the killer comes to kick it. Grim is 1 use per person, and then the super blockage. Though not really, because you don't get 4 uses of the regular blockage and then 1 of the longer one. That last one is in place of a 4th use, and if the obsession is the last one you hooked, you get robbed of the aura reading. And what do survivors do during the blockage of Grim or Deadlock? Reset for free, because they can't do the gen, which works to good survivors' advantage because they don't heal to push gens anyway. And Friends Til The End, what the heck is that? I've used it like twice, because the survivors always get away before that measly little Exposed timer expires.
The devs see what they've been doing as good, simply because killers are experimenting more than ever. But like I said, the reason killers are doing that is because they're in scrambles and looking to find something good. Those gen defence perks you mentioned are what people fall back on because historically that's what's always been good, and they're too stubborn to drop them, or they face bad survivors all the time so the perks work anyway. I was using Pain Res/Grim a while back myself, but against the teams that did 5 gens in 4 hooks, it didn't do anything. So how could it be strong? Stuff that only stomps noobs isn't strong or meta; that's an oxymoron.
-4 -
I could probably get behind that.
I don't know that it's the best way to address things, and certain things (like toolboxes) would still need to be adjusted on their own merits, but there's a similar justification to the Haste/Hindered change underlying potential hard caps too— it lets the devs design stronger tools individually for more varied synergies.
If something like this did happen… I could live with it.
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They'll never allow that. They'll do it for the survivor side, as we already see Dark Theory getting buffed, but they won't do it for the killer side, except for Unbound which probably nobody but me is going to try out anyway. Their recent history shows their priority hasn't been making both sides balanced. It's just whoever complains the most/the loudest, which is always survivors, that's what gets buffed nerfed, what they want. And like I said, or rather quoted someone else, the variations in speed that you can't see with the untrained eye is probably bad design for this game. It's why I want all killers to be 115% speed and fix the loops, or make killer 120%. At best, they're using these Haste perks as a band-aid fix for the game's problems. They hate killers having stuff that survivors complain about, no matter how weak or obscure it is. Just look at hex Demogorgon. Literally everybody was playing that, right? Sometimes they just nerf random stuff which nobody complained about, like this recent Pentimento thing. That, or they just don't like killers having fun.
-5 -
Post edited by danielmaster87 on-2
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How about 2nd chance perk stacking? Can't have your whole build be DS UB OTR Adrenaline
-4 -
Endurance already doesn't stack.
ETA: maybe, if they implement meaningful anti slugging, anti camping, and anti tunneling that they've put on the road map we could feasibly talk about caps or restrictions here.
But if we're about to get anything as pathetically weak as AFC is, then there's no chance the game would survive capping or limiting the literal only tools that even attempt to show down these strategies.
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well, one of the new perks introduced with the next survivor is a perk that will literally make rescues and escape during the EGC from nearly any part of the map possible and in most cases even easy. Thats a pretty seizable buff. What I really don't get is how many survivor on one hand lament the stale meta and that nothing moves, but on the other hand aren't willing to let other perks, even extremely niche and situational ones, raise up and shine and allowing them to break the old mold.
You are basically saying that enduring two supercharged chases per match isn't preferable to facing another cookie cutter Pop/PainRes/Lethal/BBQ killer. Of the 130 Killer perks, over half of them have a pickrate of below 2%, with 9 of the top 10 perks having a 10%+ pick rate. I guess "shaking up the meta" is only ever alowed from the top to the bottom, ie nerfing things to the ground, so that the next best medioce one can take the place of its follen brothers, not out of strength, but out of sheer desperation.
-2 -
I mean, with builds that specialize in one thing like healing, you're making everything else weaker. Haste specialized builds were problematic on both roles, making chases take way too long or end way too soon
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I hope this was the first AND last change like this.
Other stuff does not need to be hard-capped.
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I’m pro versatility and buff EVERYTHING to be good and leave people to their own devices really and let people play how they want with standalone good perks or support perks that buff a style.IT DOES NOT MATTER WHICH SIDE. This is basically a sandbox game that’s costumed like a competitive asymm. If it were actually competitive there would be leaderboards that are broadcasted, but there’s not. You can play this game with whatever and whoever you want basically. “Meta” doesn’t control me. You make a lot of assumptions. I don’t think saying introducing a cool haste perk and keep in mind killers that won’t be able to keep up with it is some crazy out of pocket take. If you want survivors to just stand still and not be able to take chase or do gens just say that, I think you’ll be hard pressed to find a player base for survivor that ENJOYS that though is all I’m saying.
also if you’re issue with duty of care is endgame just say that and maybe they’ll put a stipulation of “disables at endgame” on it. Like that’s not some insane ask. Truth be told though watching the ptb killers weren’t that far behind to where survivors could get the gate open while actively pursuing them, and tbh if those gates were already open they probably could get out anyway, and if they didn’t, team mistake straight up.Neither side likes gens-mostly- and both sides like chase-mostly-, if you’re trying to eliminate both options on the survivor side simultaneously across the board as a standard , I just have puzzling questions at game direction from the top down if that’s the goal . While I’m at it I do think they should introduce diversity at the top on the killer side so it’s not just dash killers and traversal killers ruling the roost at the top that do force a diverse meta and contemplation on what to bring. You assume a lot. I’m not saying any joe or jane should be able to pick up killer though and soar all the way up being brainless, and nobody else’s fun matters in that pursuit because you have diversity and are having a good time, sounds like a really good way to ignore newcomer and average experience on survivor side while pacifying average killers at their expense.
Post edited by HeroLives on4 -
Well, I obviously hit nerf there, as you got instantly pretty defensiv. But just in case that I overstepped, the one assumption that I made was that you included yourself in the group of survivors that hate chase cutting perks, and that you weren't talking about that group from the outside.
The other thing is that I explained how the constant attack on perks outside of the meta is counterproductive to perk variety - I might have missed your point, but you literally started your statement with "counterpoint", inticating that it stood counter to the points I made in my initial post. I find that much more reasonable to assume, than that what you do: that I somehow demand or want survivors to just stay in place, let themselves getting killed unopposed and then looking around like a surprised pikachu when no one wants to play survivor.
Indeed, meta should not control us, and my general use builds are pretty much off-meta most of the time and I like using a couple of perks off the beaten path. For 2 years, Spies in Shadows is in nearly every killer build of mine, its definitely my most favorite perk, but just now people seem to be waking up to how good it is as i saw more and more posts mentioning it, in the past most people shot this perk down as weak and borderline useless.
BUT if we want to break open the crusty old mold of the perk meta, we need to make other perks, old and new, viable and attractive to at least some part of the players base. The meta will always be the most played perks, thats the defining feature of the "most effective tactic available", as a surprising number of players outright HATE the concept of equipping a perk that might not help them or give them value in each and every game. As a survivor I love to play Quick and Quiet + Headon, probably the weakest exhaustion perk in the game and it doesn't give me value every game, but when it does its so much fun.
But were I am totally on your side is the schizophrenic identity crisis of DBD: on one hand its constantly flaunted around as this fun game were you are chased by legendary slasher killers or can even play as one yourself and thats a fun, little party game, but on the other hand its constantly evaluated and balanced like a straight esports titel with a hardcore competitive scene.
While DBD HAS a competitive scene, in order to make that one work they have to maintain expansive lists of outlawed perks and add-ons, and ostensibly the list of the banned survivor perks is much longer then the killer one, albeit the banned killer list isn't short by any means.
DBD is as balanced as it has ever been, but right now we are at the cusp of optimizing the fun out of the game, by not allowing the other side to have anything good, fun or effective. While I am what you might consider a killer main, i play a pretty fair share of survivor and pride myself by having completed every achievment and tome challenge in the game - probably impossible if I never touched survivors at all. So I KNOW the pain of getting tunneled out of nowhere at 4 gens, that sucks! But I also know the feeling of the killer when 3 gens pop first chase and they instantly feel the pressure raising, with one survivor with one hook and 3 survivor with no hooks at all greedy to pounce on two of the remaining gens.
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I hear you; we’re in agreement. reworking gen perks addons/items on both sides and introducing a mechanic that operates where it takes longer at the beginning(built in regression) , stabilizes at the middle, and then (progresses) more towards the end based off kill count could be a way to go about it, balance the killer side around hooks and not kills for bp boosts where the longer people are alive throughout the match the higher bp gain and scoring to offset set “work arounds” not my ideas but I read them somewhere, and I do think they are worth a shot.
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I'm so glad they gave up the idea
-3 -
I wouldn’t say “gave up”, more like delayed. Long term, there is not other option than to end stacking.
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The option is to rework already existing perks
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How many perks are there and still growing? The impossible to manage point was several years ago.
1
