http://dbd.game/killswitch
Will MMR ever be a public stat in game to see? How does it work?
Answers
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It's a assymetrical multiplayer game with licenses and they have no competition. It's literally a monopoly at this point. That's the biggest reason they been able to retain their audience because if there were no licensed chapter, this game would have died a long time ago.This is a common argument. Do people really put thousands of hours into a game because it has a certain license? Lots of games are licensed properties, it doesn't mean they succeed, much yet get 9 years.
i don't think anyone in the DBD community were positive about the SBMM test's when they were first introduced much less when they dropped MMR into the game, Otz, one of the biggest content creators for this game made 3 videos about this when they first dropped SBMM. Scott jund has made numerous videos about it, most recently in a video titled Top Ten Worst Decisions in Dead by Daylight History where SBMM was at number 1, Dowsey left the game partially due to SBMM and Tatariu as well.Now you're just changing arguments. DbD's player's count is healthy, there's no evidence that the introduction of SBMM had any noticeable impact on that. Those are just what the numbers indicate, whether certain people like it or not is a different issue.
Post edited by crogers271 on5 -
- Again, don't know OR care
2. Now, we're going to explain this again as clearly as we can.
When people see MMR, theres a very good number of people who will base people's "validity" (Defined: "how much credibility one's argument holds") on MMR. This is despite the fact that multiple things factor into how they got there. Such examples include the killer tunneling their way up despite their own lack of skill in any other area or a survivor hiding all game doing nothing helpful but manages to keep getting out the door. Both of those increase MMR.Examples from the other end is the chill killer getting SWF squads back to back with gen builds or the expert survivor who basically caried the team but was left for dead at the end. Those lower MMR.
These examples and similar show that MMR does not equate to skill or validity in arguments. People can be both knowledgeable and skillful while being in low MMR. The problem then becomes that people would dismiss others thoughts based on their MMR and that is wrong for multiple reasons shown if MMR were visible.
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- DBD has multiple licenses, not just one like TCM, Killer Clown From Other Space, Predator Hunting Grounds or Evil Dead. You are not going to beat a game like DBD with only one license. That is a fact. My argument is that every time they release a licensed chapter the number grows, that is fact. Look up steam charts when they released SBMM, the number significantly took a dip. the old numbers had DBD in the 50's, nowadays it's in the 30's, now granted this is only on pc.
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We're going round is circle but on the dip
DbD experienced an unusual summer in 2021. You can't just quote the image from that period without looking at their overall history. Three of its best months are in the summer of 2021, July, August, and June are the first, third, and fifth best months in DbDs history. However the 2nd, 4th, and 5th through I think 13th best months are all post SBMM.
Or look at this way: there have been 10 months post SBMM where DbD cracked 40k players, it happened 7 times before that.
And given you are talking about licenses, these best months are because of the licenses DbD was getting through that period. You can't credit the licenses for the games success at some points and ignore it at others for why there was a player drop off (people coming off the anniversary high / Resident Evil release)
If SBMM was a problem, then the numbers for late 2021/early 2022 should be worse than late 2020/early 2021, but the post SBMM numbers are generally better or roughly the same.
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People are already being nasty about anything in this game adding something that a lot of players have asked for is not going to increase or decrease it in any way shape or form. People are always going to be toxic about anything no matter what in a multplayer game, that is a just a fact people are going to accept at some point. It's not a good excuse not to put it into the game, same with communication for solo queue players. The only reason i can see why BHVR would never implement visible (which they have clearly stated that they won't with legal actions) MMR is because it would show the public how bad the MMR really is.
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I see more red than green tbh. June 2021 was the biggest spike in the playerbase and the Wesker Chapter then it has started to flunctuate up and down. Licensed chapters is the carrot for both new player and veteran players of the game. SBMM on the other hand was by all stretches of the imagion a bad mechanic that a lot of players including content creators for this game didn't want in this game, Licensed chapters will draw those players back.
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SBMM itself isn't the problem. It does work as intended, but the problem stems from backfilling of lobbies, where the algorithm does not take SBMM into account, and turns it into a free-for-all, where players from any skill level may show up, expect for the protected bracket.
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Actually, its a pretty solid excuse since there's little point in adding more ways for the players to be ****s to each other. (And yes, it would increase people being nasty to each other, by how much everyone can only guess).
If you'll indulge a little experiment, can you list your pros and cons of showing vs not showing MMR for each?
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The truth is, the moment that there is a ranking there is a need to stop cheating. One thing Behavior isn't interested in doing, it's stopping cheating. The more you don't know, the less you know what to complain about that they have to answer for. I'd love this game to have stats or even public rankings (are you in the 10% of Killers? Top 20% of survivors for gen rushing or escapes?) it would be awesome to know, but it's never going to happen because then they have to be accountable for that being accurate.
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It'll never be a public stat. I will take stats like how many times did I vault a window/vault? How many pallets did I destroy in a map? How many times did I hit a survivor? How many times did I condemn someone. (In total) I would love to know the number.
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Pros are as follows. We would stop getting people who say "you are just facing scrubs and you are not really at high MMR" when they have no grounds to say so because MMR is visible, it would stop the confusement between players who think their MMR ranking and their grade are the same, the competitive scene would get better cause you could see the mmr of these players instead of people just starting up a tournament with random people with 500 restrictions on 1 side etc etc. The big con i see here is that a lot of people find it stressful about the idea of seeing your MMR ingame whether it raises or lowers depending on wins and losses which is why they should add it as an option in the menu if you wanna see it or not. Toxicity is also something that people that are against visible MMR say this will bring out which is true but toxicity will always be in a multiplayer videogame especially in a competitive one like DBD. The only difference here is that they will now use MMR as an excuse to be toxic to other players.
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For those pros:
- While this is true, it comes with a mirrored con we have been repeating.
- …which is usually easily solved when someone brings it up to begin with? But very well.
the competitive scene would get better cause you could see the mmr of these players instead of people just starting up a tournament with random people with 500 restrictions on 1 side etc etc.
you might need to explain this one to us as we don't quite understand how you mean it would get better. Do you mean "better players" in the comp scene? If so, MMR wouldn't work as we've pointed out prior that MMR does not quite equate to skill. It also would probably lead to things like "only X MMR allowed" tournaments, though whether or not that part is a pro or con is variable by person.
For those cons:
- True, didn't even think of that one.
- The thing with the toxicity is "why add more ways to be toxic to ppl?" Its not even about having to get use to it, its just more and more and builds up. Sure people can get use to it, but why keep adding it up for, to us at least, a dumb reason?
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- The competitve scene as a whole in DBD is completely mixed in terms of which players gets allowed into which tournaments, some tournaments for instance you like Hexy's Best Of the Best 5 years that had no barrier for entry so you had Otz being matched up against scrubs in a bracket and then you have Tournaments like Wwispy1's for instance where there were no restrictions on either side and DBD content creators like Scott Jund was saying that it was decently balanced at the high level which anyone with half a brain would know especially when you could bring in a Ebony Mori and kill someone of 3rd hook negating a DS and also that whole tournament was based on hooks so killers was actually losing as the MMR system as it is currently is based on kills/escapes but yes my point is that we would have players with high MMR in these tournaments instead of completely random people that just start up a tournament on Twitch. 2. Like i said, Toxicity is always going to be in a PVP multiplayer game such as this. Choy, another content creator that shares my opinion made an exact video talking about the pros and cons of a visible MMR and has talked about visible MMR for years. BHVR Just Randomly Shadow Dropped MMR For The First Time! - Dead By Daylight The sad reality is that i do not think that BHVR would give us visible MMR just because of the fact they brought out their lawyers when people were asking for it through the support system and their reasoning for it was that it was a "trade secret" which is not true, dataminers have found out that it's based on the Glicko system, a system that is based on Chess and widely used in the majority of games that uses some form of skill based matchmaking system.
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This is, OP, exactly why they don't do it, Hex_Ignored is right.
And MMR in fact for this reason alone should never, ever be shown, ever.3 -
We assume this is for us yes?
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my point is that we would have players with high MMR in these tournaments instead of completely random people that just start up a tournament on Twitch
This is literally the only thing you needed to say without adding all the unnecessary fluff. As we said before:
Do you mean "better players" in the comp scene? If so, MMR wouldn't work as we've pointed out prior that MMR does not quite equate to skill.
How did someone get to "high mmr"? Currently killers have a pretty easy way to get to "high mmr" via tunnel the weak link with stacked regressions while the only thing a survivor needs to do is get out the door, don't matter how to go up.
2. You didn't answer the question. "why add more ways to be toxic to ppl?" Just because people will always be people doesn't necessarily excuse adding more ways to do so, especially if the positive isn't worth it. Does the 1 or 1 & 1/2 pro outweigh the cons?
…and for the third bloody time, we don't give a F about whomever this Choy is, especially if your trying to invoke them with it having nothing to do with this conversation…
3. For ease of reading, we ask if you'd please use spacing/separating paragraphs/whatever the proper term was called. Its hard to dig through anything against a wall of text.
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- Tunneling weak links in a team is going to be a thing of the past with the new Duty Of Care perk and new buffed Babysitter. 2. With the new Abandon feature, there is literally no way for a survivor to lose MMR unless they get tunneled out at the beginning of a match thereby making it damn near impossible to get to low MMR. 3. They literally showed the MMR numbers or atleast the highest and the lowest MMR on their latest stats update. 4.Choy literally explained the reasons why people would think adding visible MMR would increase Toxicity starting at 2:54. My own reasons why they hid it in the first place is because they know if they would show visible MMR people would know that it's flawed and possible by design, to push bad survivors up to good killers inflating the killrates. Choy is literally the only content creator in this DBD content scene that has a voice in this matter and has actually spoken up about this, that's why i am bringing him up.
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- Yay one part helped…how bout the rest?
With the new Abandon feature, there is literally no way for a survivor to lose MMR unless they get tunneled out at the beginning of a match thereby making it damn near impossible to get to low MMR.
What does any of this have to do with "why add more ways to be toxic to ppl?". If anything its more an argument to use in point 1.
3. From what we recall they did not show any individual players MMR. If you can point to official stats saying otherwise we'll happily eat our words.
4. You really seem to be trying to push this random guy on us. At least you explained the relevance of why you added whatshisname but ultimately:
My own reasons why
This is what matters to us more than whosit. Gotta say that parts to us sound a bit like a conspiracy theory. We don't deny the MMR system is flawed in many ways (which is why we got soooooo many things to use for point 1) but we don't think its directly picking bad skill to face good skill at first. That said, wouldn't then this be more of a con showing it as it would have people's MMR mean nil while causing the above head aches?
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Watch the video i posted and then come back
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Another thing
I just wanna ask something, do you play this game competitively or do you play is casually like with your friends and stuff? Because what i have noticed when people bring up visible MMR is that the people that want visible MMR are usually very competitive minded while the people that don't want are more of the casual players.
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My own reasons why they hid it in the first place is because they know if they would show visible MMR people would know that it's flawed and possible by design, to push bad survivors up to good killers inflating the killrates.Wait, so they're lying about MMR to push up kill rates?
If you believe they are just willing to lie why wouldn't they just lie about kill rates and cut out a step?
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Not likely happening
Due to our definition of "competitive" (playing in a league/event/etc with some form of valuable stakes on the line, such as cash or other prizes) the three of us play casual.
Your assessment of people is mostly correct. We also see that more "competitive minded" people are desperate to see mmr more than your average person. Doesn't change the flaws that come with it though.
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That is true which is why the devs needs to make their minds up of how they view their game. Do they see the game as a competitive game like a lot of people that play in comp tournaments do where they break every perk and add-ons into a science or do they view the game as a casual party game like Mario Kart that you play with you friends and just have fun and don't care whether you win or lose. IMO putting people against each in a competitive PVP multplayer is competitive in nature whether or not the devs admit this or not is a different story altogether. When TCM (another assymetrical game) came out for the first time, the devs themselves said in their first livestream that they didn't view the game as a competitive game but instead wanted it to be like game you just chilled with your friends but like i said before, a multiplayer PVP game is competitive in nature. When DBD first came out, looping as whole wasn't a thing and all the players back then were hiding instead.
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Huh, most games show their MMR lmao Most PVP games have visible ranks or have no discernable SBMM. Even DBD at first showed MMR, because MMR was your season rank and so you were going to be matched with that unless you were player SWF. DBD wouldn't do it currently because it would just highlight how they actually don't use any sort of SBMM lol
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How does it work? The neat part is that it actually doesn't work, as matchmaking almost completely prioritizes queue time speed over more even matches. Blame the community, who voted for that when the devs last asked what the player base preferred.
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ranks are literally not the same as MMR and some companies even had to confirm that those two are completely different things. And you are not matched exclusively based on rank, but based on elo/MMR
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Honestly, we disagree on that. The devs don't need to cater to people of a specific mindset as long as it's fun for a majority of their customers, especially when if they cater to one the other is very likely to stop playing. We all can argue how well their doing that but the main point is that it's their game.
IMO putting people against each in a competitive PVP multplayer is competitive in nature whether or not the devs admit this or not is a different story altogether.
We'll hold our snarkiness on the wording of that to point out that the mentality of the players has an impact on how a game evolves. We've been here since Doc and saw for ourselves how it slowly (metaphorically speaking) it went from looping being a last line of defense to becoming the go too for many. The devs saw and adapted to how looping became more popular and a lot of those survivors who loved to loop were the competitive minded types and attracted more (yes we know this sounds judgemental but for once it's not). Now we got both types and another division of us v them with bhvr practically needing both groups currently.
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The game is not fun at high level going against the same perks/items over and over again, the only way you can have fun in this game is to lower your MMR so you can have a fun time beating on new players.I never said that they have to cater to one side, i said they have to say which demographic they are balancing the game for, is it the casual side or the veteran side? The TCM devs immediately said in their first livestream what playerbase their game is for. NetEase, the company that makes Marvel Rivals and Identity V (Clone of DBD and actually balances the game around high level such as camping and tunneling) and is still one of the most played mobile games in China. Trapper, the mascot for this game denies looping by definition, he literally put down traps next to loops. Looping was a just an evolution in this game, it was inevitable that it would happen at some point.
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Apologies for the delay, we've been busy.
the only way you can have fun in this game is to lower your MMR so you can have a fun time beating on new players.
Well, can say that's untrue, especially when fun is subjective. We're quite capable of having fun as killer or survivor in spite of what they run. Though we admit it's incredibly dull that we can predict ppl in the first minute, what happens in the trial makes or breaks the fun.
I never said that they have to cater to one side, i said they have to say which demographic they are balancing the game for, is it the casual side or the veteran side?
Your previous words imply that they need to pick a side and balance around what they pick.
That is true which is why the devs needs to make their minds up of how they view their game.
After all simply stating how they view it wouldn't change much. If you're pointing to the other games to try and reinforce that we think it kinda falls a little since we've never seen NetEase state if either of those was casual or party game (we've all played both and last we saw, Idv didn't explicitly balance around high end players)
Looping was a just an evolution in this game, it was inevitable that it would happen at some point.
You say that, yet the devs could have removed that and instead emphasized stealth. They chose to adapt and more incorporate looping.
Lastly, we've indulged the off topic enough as this has strayed far from mmr
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Getting stomped by survivors using all meta perks for 4 hours because you picked a killer that isn't Nurse, Blight or Hillbilly is not fun period. Nobody enjoys losing in a multiplayer PVP game, that's just a fact. If you are a survivor main, i can see why you wouldn't mind that considering you don't play killer and the same could be said for solo queue players being stomped every single game. What do you mean by dull exactly? Survivors and killers using the same perks? That's exactly what i meant, just like TCM and Friday the 13th did. Them stating what kinda game they are balancing the game around would give us a lot of insight into the devs minds and how they view their game but it would also make a huge potion leave the game no matter which side they are balancing for. Identity has a competitve scene and it is balanced around the "unfun" mechanics such as camping and tunneling instead of nerfing it and making it easier for the casual players to keep up. How exactly would they have removed looping. Friday the 13th had looping and that was with a stamina bar. My point is that casual players do not want visible MMR because their reasoning for this is toxicity which is not true, the toxicity would not increase. The only thing that would happen is that those same players would use MMR as an excuse to be toxic and the veteran players want it because of how exactly the MMR works, people who say they are at high MMR when they clearly are not due to visible MMR and smurf accounts which is a thing in this community on both sides. They could just give the players the option to have visible MMR, that way if players don't want to see their ranking go up and down, they'll have to option to disable it.
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For the love of **** mate, SPACING please
Nobody enjoys losing in a multiplayer PVP game, that's just a fact.
If you keep trying to group everyone in your "facts" then it's by default false, case in point we Rulebreakers don't care if we lose as long as we lost in an interesting way. There's others who think this way as well (we're in a discord server with em). Journey vs destination, we pick the journey.
If you are a survivor main, i can see why you wouldn't mind that considering you don't play killer and the same could be said for solo queue players being stomped every single game.
Ohh look…more trying to group us... for the record, we play both ends and prefer the killer (don't need to rely on anyone else that way). The reason were playing survivor more currently? The new achievements (and technical 2 of us are also Vecna hunting). Got 1 killer achievement and that's jumping off cliffs.
What do you mean by dull exactly? Survivors and killers using the same perks? That's exactly what i meant, just like TCM and Friday the 13th did. Them stating what kinda game they are balancing the game around would give us a lot of insight into the devs minds and how they view their game but it would also make a huge potion leave the game no matter which side they are balancing for. Identity has a competitve scene and it is balanced around the "unfun" mechanics such as camping and tunneling instead of nerfing it and making it easier for the casual players to keep up.
Ok first: "Dull" as in "we know exactly what they're running, what they're going to do, same ol same ol and there's no surprises".
Second: We have not seen any official statements on "what kind of game" those are in regards to "competitive" or not. You may have some of a case with idv since it does have an official competitive scene but them not nerfing things doesn't mean they don't want to keep casuals (and if we remember correctly, the survivors in that have a thing to make camping less desirable by making the timer take longer)
Third: If saying what type of game the devs want it to be would, in your own words, make people leave...why should and would they?
Fourth:
Survivors and killers using the same perks? That's exactly what i meant, just like TCM and Friday the 13th did. Them stating what kinda game they are balancing the game around would give us a lot of insight into the devs minds and how they view their game but it would also make a huge potion leave the game no matter which side they are balancing for.
Hoooow exactly do these line up? Genuinely confused.
How exactly would they have removed looping.
Emphasis on stealth over running. More ways to hide or disappear like the smoke bombs or Vecna artifacts compared to say lithe and DH.
My point is that casual players do not want visible MMR because their reasoning for this is toxicity which is not true, the toxicity would not increase.
Took awhile to get to the point...
Your words from a previous post:
Toxicity is also something that people that are against visible MMR say this will bring out which is true but toxicity will always be in a multiplayer videogame especially in a competitive one like DBD.
Well...which is it? Our bets that it will increase. We all can argue how much, but it will.
The only thing that would happen is that those same players would use MMR as an excuse to be toxic and the veteran players want it because of how exactly the MMR works, people who say they are at high MMR when they clearly are not due to visible MMR and smurf accounts which is a thing in this community on both sides.
Well, we should have read more through but kinda hard against a wall of text
So your contradicting yourself with what we put in bold…
They could just give the players the option to have visible MMR, that way if players don't want to see their ranking go up and down, they'll have to option to disable it.
This wouldn't work as well as you think it would. What do you think...lets just say a vocal majority, of people here would ask when questioning others? We believe it would be something like "What's your MMR?"...and a hop and skip later we come full circle to the problem we repeatedly point out. Since it's optional: if you can get it and if you don't give a number, your dismissed. If you give an "unsatisfactory" number, your dismissed. If you lie about it, they call BULL and your dismissed (probably what happens now but moving on). If you can't get the number after hiding it: dismissed. Currently with it hidden, this can't happen.
Look, despite irking us, we'll level with you. It doesn't need shown, it adds more negatives than positives, and generally will be used as another way for people to be ****s to each other and this game and forums don't need that especially.
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High MMR doesn't mean it's easy mode. People can struggle at any MMR. Even professional DBD players struggle in matches.That bring said, the old visible ranks literally had nothing to do with skill determination. It was just how much people played during a month.
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Yeah, but sometimes it is pretty clear that they are really challenged at the game. And well… If you are bad at the game even a mediocre player will look good for you.
And sadly I have to disappoint you - the Emblem-System lead to quite good Matchmaking when the Rank Reset was strict. When they watered it down, all went downhill.
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isn't this only steam numbers? What about console players/windows store/Epic?
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Disappoint me? Not sure what you mean. All because someone was iridescent 1 didn't mean they were a pro player, all those ranks meant was how much someone played within a month. Even a mediocre player could reach iridescent 1.
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If you enjoy losing in a multiplayer game like this then you are a a casual player and don't have any say in any kind of balance discussion.
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Please tell us you don't see the irony in this. It would be the most hilarious post we've seen in a long while.
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I hope not. This game has become too competitive already. And it is not even a comp game lol.
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