Letting Survivors Leave, Forcing Killers to Stay: What a Perfectly Fair System
Comments
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Oh absolutely, getting picked up multiple times wouldn't constitute as a checkmate, but again, the game can continue without that survivor continuing to play. I've got my own opinions about some of the abandon conditions and how they have been implimented. My point was more about how if the killer abandons, its just a hard cut for everyone out of the match. Thats why it would need to be more strict for killer than for survivor in terms of the required level of futility in resuming. Thats why I also went into exploring other ideas in how to achieve parity if sticking with these mechanical changes that clearly favor one side in both their implementation and considerations.
Allowing endgame to be skipped entirely is a bit much, but it could be done with some type of caveat. Like if the gates are powered within too short of a time limit, or like zero hook stages or something. It would have to be pretty extreme to completely remove a stage of the game, especially when multiple perks on both sides revolve around it. Just like with many elements of the game, its important to respect time and acknowledge removal of agency while understanding the realistic limits of both.
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We don't have these kinds of conditions for survivor abandon when all slugged.
Survivors could have unbreakable, no mither, etc and they can still abandon. The final survivor can abandon mid-mori.
Just let killers have no condition free abandon in EGC. It's a 2 minute time save for pointless to play out games.
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We don't have these kinds of conditions for survivor abandon when all slugged.Survivors could have unbreakable, no mither, etc and they can still abandon. The final survivor can abandon mid-mori.I already addressed that. Again, I am no fan of how the abandon feature was implimented. I'm more focused on the difference between necessity of player retention for the match to continue. As someone who wants there to be more ability to avoid endgame helplessness and toxicity and feels killers are being shafted in that field by how things work, I acknowledge how the same thing wouldn't work for killers directly. That isn't to say that either a smaller killer focused solution to complement the abandon feature, or scrapping that and coming up with something that directly addresses the issue in a way that is even for both sides, wouldn't be much better than what we have now.
There are just considerations in the game's structure itself that make a copy paste solution not really viable as it would potentially remove an entire stage of the match in an instant. If the killer was the only one who could have anything endgame focused, it might not be as bad, but the entire point of the EGC is to add tension to the endgame just as much as it is to add a time limit. I would like the problem to be fixed, I just don't think a carte blanche solution would improve game health.
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I am always buffled for what reason Survivors get the abbandon button. Some times when I play with friends I am even confused why it showed up in the first place.
My all time favorite will be:
I am the last on in the Trial, both exit gates and the hatch is open. I am full health and the Killer has no clue where I am and this is enough to trigger the abbandon button.
Another funny one is the following. I get downed early but get picked up because the Killer tried to get the survivor who was trying to flashlight save me. Then I got picked uo after 4 gens got completed an I could abbandon?
For Killer there is an easy solution. Give the Killer the abbandon possibility when 3 or 4 survivors are in the Exit area. You can´t argue with "but the challenge wants me to get hatch" because the hatch won´t spawn in the Exit gate Area and if you try to abuse it by standing outside the Killer has atleast the chance to get you even without abilitys which block the exit gates.
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I can only speak from subjective experience, yet in most trials as killer I've found much more often than not – once the gates are powered – I'll get at least 1 extra kill in that time. Were I to quit once 5 gens are done, I'd have a far poorer record.
I can understand, once the gates are actually open, it's mostly game over. Yet even then there is an opportunity; the "just leave" moments are examples of that.
The abandon feature, as it currently exists, I feel needs some adjustments. You certainly shouldn't be being recorded as "escaped" when you abandon the game. It should also be counted towards statistics. I'm not sure of all the conditions that set it off, but if there is one that allowed somebody to abandon because they were knocked down 3 times in a trial that I heard about, then that absolutely shouldn't be a thing.
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The main, and valid reason why Killers want to be able to abandon during EGC is because Killers don't want to waste their time. However, standoffs during EGC are often a huge waste. It's often a bitter choice between wasting their time and humiliation. Either try to find activities around the map while you could be queing up for a game or go for a celebratory t-bag and flashlight in the face before the verbal abuse in the endgame chat. Both choices suck because one has players wasting their time pointlessly, other one forces them to interact for toxicity (and subtly blames them for feeling horrible after such matches "It's your fault because you let it get to you").
Not wanting to waste your time in a game you paid for is a good enough reason. Forcing players to choose between being held hostage or face toxicity (because let's be honest, if survivors stand at the exit gates for almost entire EGC timer, they aren't doing it to compliment the Killer) is bad gaming experience — and telling players that they should play another game if they have bad gaming experience in this one is a horrible practice. This is why I'll never say anything bad about Survivor Abandon features and bot implementation — these are good changes and something can be done for Killers as well.
It's not techically possible to let Killers Abandon during EGC? No problem, just give Killers something else to do during EGC. Launch a glyph-seeking quest for extra BPs, let them go to the Void dimension and interact with sprites or carry essence around the altars, come up with some specific tasks that match the Killer's bio — there are many options and any of them better than simply waiting or interacting with players Killers don't feel like interacting with. But what if the Survivors run out of the exit gate and interrupt the Killer's quests? Well, then the game ended and the Killer can go next. Time is not wasted.
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Survivors could have unbreakable, no mither, etc and they can still abandon.
Force them out is base kit for every killer in the roster.
Remind me which of these options is base kit for survivor? Because they pulled anti slugging, remember.
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I ask it the other way around.
What are you as Survivor losing if the Killer leaves the match when you are staying at the exit gate?
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You know this wouldnt be a thing if killers werent slugging and bleeding out excessively when the game was over, but i disgress.
That was probably the only good thing we got this year for survivors that luckily wasnt reverted or removed or nerfed.
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Thankfully Survivors can´t be sore Winners and waste the Killers time or trying to be as toxic as possible so that Killers would demand a way to abbandon.
Oh wait…
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Which unlike survivors being bleed out or being slugged, without any way out or forward.
(Unless with extreme situational perk loadouts)
Killer CAN end the game and move the game forward,
Without even needing to use any perk for it.
They arent held hostage, their powers arent just magically disabled, they cant be t-bagged, they arent even forced to watch survivors leave as they are forcing them out of the gate.
the many extreme situations that killers have zero control over but are essentially in a stalemate,
They already have a surrender option for that too.
(Example : survivors hiding for eternity and not doing the objective)
So unless killers for some reason get head-on stun-locked in EGC or get a similar treatment as such, this wont happen and it makes no sense to do so.
This isnt double standart, thats just how bhvr unfortunately desisnged their game and the surrender.
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So I ask you the same question:
What do you lose when the Killer abbandons the game instead of forcing you out?
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That isn't my point. These aren't equivalent scenarios. You might as well ask "why are the flavor texts in italics then" for all the relevance that has.
I'm not a huge fan of abandon, for this exact reason. I find most of these posts to be on the edge of (and some cross the line) of promoting bad behavior by telling people to disconnect, which is explicitly against forum rules.
Almost everyone pushing this is trying to conflate two very different things, where killers have options and agency, and survivors have literally nothing while slugged. It's a false equivalence.
And when I try to point that out, people ignore it. I'm in this exact thread from before it got resurrected asking why not give survivors the option to "hit the killer out" while slugged instead? That would make them equivalent scenarios, but people don't want to look at that, they want to disconnect from a match in progress.
Which is against forum rules.
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So I make it more even.
Why can a Survivor Skip the Mori animation with abbandon. It is just another way for the Killer to force you out of the gate.
If Survivors are willing to wait 2 Minutes in the Exit gate and demand the Killer to hit each one twice before they crawl out they can watch the short clip of a mori or not?
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why not give survivors the option to "hit the killer out" while slugged instead?
I'm still waiting 6+ months for an answer to this. You first.
Edit: actually. Sure. Make them watch, the current implementation is wrong. Now your turn.
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The problem is Killers do not have bots.
If killers did have bots when they dc, or heck even just stood there afk we could give the killers more abandon options
But since when a killer leave the match ends they need to stay strict for the killer side until there is at least a afk bot left for the survivors (and survivors could abandon if they wanted like how killer can abandoned when its all bots)0 -
Survivors got the abbandon button the second when they get slugged like this. Because they don´t want their time wasted or see the Killer pressing W and S.
Killer still must tolerate the much longer Tbag and Clicky Click party.
Your turn
What do you lose when the Killer abbandons when all Survivors are at the exit gate?
You win either way so what are you losing when we give the Killer the option to abbandon?
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According to the design philosophy of the game, the main role of the killer is to entertain survivors, and the killer can't quit until every survivor is properly entertained. So it's obvious why the killer can't abandon during EGC, because this way survivors lose a mandatory end-game teabagging session, which is an important part of the event program. However, the killer can abandon when all survivors have already abandoned or DC'd, because there are no more customers remaining to entertain and the killer can no longer serve their function.
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We are talking about abbandon when nothing else is to do than hitting survivors out.
Is hitting a survivor out such a cruicial part of the Survivor gameplay?
If they want to donate the Killer extra Bloodpoints and the Killer doesn´t want them still no one loses something. It is only time wasted and cutting toxicity out of the game.
So I can not see the Problem with this.
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Survivors got the abbandon button the second when they get slugged like this.
Only for final survivor and the Mori, which I said was wrong.
Abandon only exists when all remaining survivors are slugged, so it's not always available. You seem to not understand how this system even works.
much longer
No, 2 minutes of EGC is not longer than 4 minutes of slug. Not to mention the agency involved, which is the exact point you keep ignoring.
Your turn
No, your turn. I made a good faith response with my edit and answered your question. You ignored my question to throw out irrelevant info and a red herring:
I'm done with this conversation unless or until you answer:
why not give survivors the option to "hit the killer out" while slugged instead?
Since you seem to be completely convinced these are identical situations. They aren't, you're just ignoring that they aren't and refusing to examine the obvious reasons that they aren't. That's disingenuous.
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If it only went off when all survivors where at the exit gate then it would be ok but then imo it would rarely work.
If we just go with three, one of the survivors could be still out in the map doing a totem for a cleanse totem challenge or the green glyph challenge that is easier to do at end game due to it showing you the location of them.
The reason I'm so against it is because the match just ends, if it was just a afk bot it would be fine imo.
where as for the killer the match just stays active and they can decide to leave after they have done challenges or objectives they may of wanted to do.-1 -
Easy as that.
If you are Slugged and the Killer is willing to stay on you Bming than all the other Survivors do Gens while you crawl to the open gate. You win or the Killer must pick you up. No reason to abbandon there since you still able to win by just letting your team work the gens.
I didn´t talked about the Endgame timer there. I talked of the time difference between getting hit and instant abbandon and hitting up to 4 survivors 2 times before they decide to leave.
You made an Edit to an post after 4 new posts have been dropped. Thats not good faith. That is just trying to blame someone else and by saying you are finished with the discussion without answering a simple question which seem really important to you you didn´t win the discussion either.
Just be honest with yourself.
You want the Killer to get shamed at the exit gate and this is your only point.
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This is sounding more like you just want to quit when the game doesn't go your way.
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Yeah thats the part we are talking about and I often said so.
Give the Killer the option to abbandon the game when 3 or more survivors are at the exit gate area.
Because if you run out of it to do a glyph or search the hatch the game continues. You go for the risk and the Killer has a chance to do something. But when 4 people stay at the border of the exit. There is nothing to do and if the Killer belives he can do something he doesn´t need to abbandon right? So a Deathslinger can still punish you for staying in the trial.
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I don´t play Killer that much, since I suck at dashes and hitting something without crosshair.
So I would say I understand that a Killer doesn´t want to do a walk of shame at the exit game while still looking for excpetions like @random1543 called out.
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You made an Edit to an post after 4 new posts have been dropped. Thats not good faith.
I made an edit 2 minutes after I posted it, after considering. The time stamp is there.
I also clarified in the response you read. Which isn't edited at all. To be clear here and for the third time: it shouldn't exist, make them watch the mori.
You haven't answered my question, not once. You keep deflecting and dodging.
The reason I ask "why not give survivors the option to "hit the killer out" while slugged instead?" Is the same reason you won't answer it and push for anything else, including personal attacks now:
They aren't the same scenario. That's the reason. You don't give survivors that option because it's a bad idea, and shouldn't be in the game. Period.
But you can't say that, because your stance is "they should have the same options, make it fair".
So you're stuck. You can't admit they're actually different scenarios, because that undermines your entire premise.
You can't request "equivalence" and then agree with me that they aren't the same.
Others are also calling you out because the reality is: you just want to disconnect, but recognize how entitled that sounds.
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My hottest DbD take is that the abandon system should never have been implemented, or at the very least not without a timer before it becomes available. Textbook definition of the phrase ‘opening a can of worms’.
They can’t add a timer now, ‘cause then it creates another storm of “you just hate survivors” and “killers only want to gloat” comments, which assume so much bad intent that it’s frankly asinine. I just want to finish the game in a normal fashion, but for whatever reason they chose to allow it in the most inelegant, immersion-breaking way.
The original intent was to prevent hostage situations. Surely, surely, having to wait 8 seconds for a mori animation to finish isn’t holding you hostage?
If the killer leaves the final survivor on the ground for over 30 seconds to find hatch, sure, let them abandon. But now killers can’t even finish a normal match where nothing underhanded occurred, and still be left to clean up the mess because the survivor can’t be bothered to wait 8 seconds.
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As I said both scenarios.
Beeing slugged and forced to hit the others out is exact the same in this scenario.
Not the Slugging is the bad part neither getting hit by the Killer but that "IF" you don´t want to waste time or don´t like to getting bmed you can leave the game. Easy as that.
One side got the possibility for more than one reason. You can abbandon if all Survivors are slugged even if someone could have unbreakable. You can abbandon when all Survivors are hooked even if someone could have deliverance or slippery meat. You can abbandon when you get downed twice and healed up no matter in which time period this occurs. You can even abbandon when both exit gates and the hatch is open while you are still healthy and the killer on the other side of the map.
The only thing I ask is that the Killer gets the abbandon option if nothing else is to do than hitting the survivors and watch the tbag parade.
But it seems that one of these is okay, even if still possibilitys exist while the other would be a total disaster for survivors if this "shaming ritual" would be cut short.
Why is that?
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This forum lives on drama I tell you…
My all time favorite was seeing that people claimed BHVR is Killer Sided because the added tally marks on the Survivors. Because a hard tunneling Killer could forget that he went for Dwight all game long and it is now much easier to tunnel for no reason at all.
The problem is in my personal opinion that you can "as you said" always demand more and never row back.
Good example was the new anti tunnel. Most people claimed "turn the hooks down. If you sacrifice after the fourth hook it is no hard tunnel. But the outcry was enormous and now we got it gutted completly.
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Not sure I understand your point. The anti-tunnel changed never made it to live. People never got to get used to those. The abandon system has been around for a while now, and people will not like it if it’s reined in.
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My point was.
BHVR does something like the Anti Tunnel.
People say "Yo BHVR that is to strong turn it down a bit"
BHVR does so and gets the crapstorm of hell.
Maybe not the best example. I just wanted to agree with you on the can of worms.
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Ah, gotcha, I thought you were talking about the other part, my bad.
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I mean everyone always says that, but the point of these features is to make lost matches feel better from a QoL standpoint.
The whole "watch me leave" thing is a common point of frustration.
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I'm still waiting for months for someone to tell me how having to participate in a humiliation ritual is agency any more than running around after defeat in a game like TF2 is. I remember in that game the losing team would have their weapons disabled and could only run while being slaughtered by the winning team. Hitting survivors out is the same as running into the winner purposely to get out of the match faster, its just shortening the duration of a loss you're forced to bask in. Its always talk of false equivalences yet no survivor is happy with situations where they are checkmated but the killer refuses to finish them off in a timely fashion and wouldn't accept it as an alternative to being able to abandon, especially with as many concessions as it has.
And again, its not even about how it affects me, its about how it affects player mentalities. You can't control the mindset of your opponent who is bitter about a previous match, and even if your temperment is good enough for it to not bother you, it will affect others. Which in turn then affects that next batch of survivors who they take it out on. Its the same justification a lot of people use to be toxic toward killers, that they're essentially taking out a previous player's BM on the next killer.
Isn't that what most of the abandon conditions are? Few people have complaints about things like 4 man slugging being a condition, but do you really need to be able to skip moris? Leave a match early because the Twins didn't take Deerstalker and your build helps with pickups? Abandon is a slippery slope which is already closer to a sanctioned form of going next than it is a proper solution, especially with its lack of necessity for checkmates instead of just checks.
Abandon only exists when all remaining survivors are slugged, so it's not always available.Yet they added the ability to do so after getting picked up a few times, not even remotely a checkmate scenario unless the killer is literally playing whack a mole overtop of them. And even then, its assuming that no endurance effects like soul guard can be present. And even then, that means the killer is doing nothing to pressure the rest of the survivors, meaning they are actively throwing to do it. Meanwhile:
The killer equivalent requires 10 consecutive minutes without a gen being finished or regressed. While understandable, that also means that it forever hiders can force a much longer wait. The considerations aren't even remotely even in terms of both realistic application nor exploitation potential. Both aspects favor the survivor, mostly because of the game's design around the mechanic, but it just means it was a bad solution, particularly how it was implemented.
No, 2 minutes of EGC is not longer than 4 minutes of slug. Not to mention the agency involved, which is the exact point you keep ignoring.And +/- 10 is more than 4. Not to mention that, again, being able to move or even shorten your defeat is not inherently agency. Otherwise throwing oneself at the killer and going next would be considered agency instead of, you know, just quitting.
why not give survivors the option to "hit the killer out" while slugged instead?They do, its called running into the killer. Like smacking survivors out, its not instant, but guarantees a shorter duration before being able to accept defeat. Its also considered against the rules because it sacrifices the integrity of the game for the other players, which is also why I feel giving the killer the ability to abandon similar to survivors wouldn't be the right move. But that's not to say that the reasons why a killer would feel the need to abandon aren't valid and shouldn't be addressed.
Post edited by Ryuhi on1 -
Others are also calling you out because the reality is: you just want to disconnect, but recognize how entitled that sounds.Unfortunately the abandon conditions for survivor, paired with the elimination nature of the role, make it just that. Stuff liek the 4 man slug situation are perfectly fine for it, but adding the multiple pickups clause basically turned it into a sanctioned way to go next. The consideration for an extreme situation isn't invalid, but the ability to force it is considerably realistic. Even as a false positive, like in the case of killers who have minor slugging as part of their kit, and a perk like Conviction being even decent. Anything that makes it so survivors have more ability to relocate while slugged makes the killer less likely to find them and pick them up, so it creates a funnel effect to make that condition much more directly accessible.
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Here's my unproven prediction.
Killers would be afk and then dc the moment the gens are done.
If the killer doesnt dc, most likely endgame perks which survivors will always be able to see comming, which will indirectly nerf endgame perks...besides noed.
Not only that, but the developers would waste resources on something that killers can live without.
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I just dont see the point why they would even need a surrender in the first place, since they are never in a position to ever needing it besides those extreme scenarios.
Survivors for years had no choice but essentially be afk.
Which didnt even work since killers carrying survivors stopped the bleedout timer.
Why would the "power role" surrender when they lost 5 gens when the game is yet to be over?.
If you really wanted to surrender, you technically could by just opening the gate, pushing the survivors out or be afk and wait out the endgame collapse timer.
At most, i can reasonably see bhvr adding a endgame collapse timer speed up if survivors are hovering around the gate.
This would accomplish your goal without giving more give ups when the game isnt over yet.
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The Killers didn´t ask for a abbandon when all gens are finished or the gates are opend.
They ask for an abbandon when the Survivors are all at the exit gate so that they don´t get the walk of shame.
If all 4 Survivors are standing at the finish line there is nearly 0% chance that the Killer (if the survivors don´t screw up) can do something else than hitting them out while they tbag or click their flashlights.
So I ask again and maybe you can give me an simple answer. What are survivors losing except to bm the Killer when the Killer has the option to close the trial when these conditions are in play?
The Survivors escape except they screw up or the game ends and the survivors escape. So why are Survivors acting like it would be unfair if the Killer won´t need to see them escape?
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"The Killers didn´t ask for a abbandon when all gens are finished or the gates are opend."
Literally the first post in this thread from like 7 months ago is asking to abandon when all gens are finished.
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But we are discussing the point right now if it is okay that Killers can abbandon when all Survivors are at the Exit gate are we not?
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Not the Slugging is the bad part neither getting hit by the Killer but that "IF" you don´t want to waste time or don´t like to getting bmed you can leave the game. Easy as that.This is the right mentality. I don't agree with giving the killer the ability to abandon outside of extreme cases, but that is what prospective solutions should focus around. Like the abandon feature was proposed to target, it should focus on preventing absolute loss of agency, respect the player's time, and minimize one sided BM scenarios. Even if abandon isn't it especially for the killer side, that isn't to say it shouldn't be a more mindful system.
The only thing I ask is that the Killer gets the abbandon option if nothing else is to do than hitting the survivors and watch the tbag parade.Thats why I feel directly addressing the exit gate's virtually non-lethal zone would be the best place to focus efforts. Since abandon would cause issues for match integrity, a more considerate solution would be to incorporate something that targets that instead. People already used powers and addons that block exits as an excuse for people to use, yet they are extremely limited among the roster. They could easily explore things like that, exposure effects when staying too close to a powered exit gate (could even make it scale in speed or duration based on partially powered gates, to make 99ing to prevent EGC more risky,) AoE effects in the gate itself like The Savior Mankind Ill Needs can do, etc. Its an entirely untapped portion of every map thats supposed to be a hopeful finish line more than arguably the safest spot on any map.
Not sure I understand your point. The anti-tunnel changed never made it to live. People never got to get used to those. The abandon system has been around for a while now, and people willnotlike it if it’s reined in.Youre right, and I don't know if it was related to their point, but its an interesting point that most killers weren't vehemently against a system like that, but more that the threshold was far too strict based on the laughably obfuscated definition of "tunneling." I'm pretty sure most would be fine with it if the minimum hooks were brought down to a lower number than 6. It could have been tested around lower values so that it wouldn't affect things like juggling multiple survivors or tunneling later in the game as an adaptive comeback mechanic. The main issue was that situations that weren't early game tunneling could very easily get lumped into that depending on the flow of the match, and the goalpost-on-wheels that is "defining tunneling." Did we ever get to hear what the third form was?
But yeah, if there's anything that we've seen time and again with this game, its that overshooting on a mechanic or idea to help one side tends to lead to a lot of negativity when reigned in or scrapped. Many people want their personal advantages more than a healthy game, so that will always be an unfortunate side effect of most nerfs just in concept.
Not only that, but the developers would waste resources on something that killers can live without.That is the literal definition of QoL. Improvements that aren't necessary for the game, but improve the experience for the end user. If that was used as a dismissal we wouldn't have gotten the majority of the improvements the game has received, the issue is more with them wasting those resources on things that don't even pass the conceptual phase, yet get pushed to PTBs (and sometimes even straight to live) anyway. If we want to trim some fat, they should focus on considerably more theory crafting and smoke testing to make sure both concepts and proposed solutions are more concrete before dedicating resources enough to put them in our hands, even for further testing. There are arguments about salvaging bad ideas and repurposing them into good ones later, but thats more an exception than a rule.
I just dont see the point why they would even need a surrender in the first place, since they are never in a position to ever needing it besides those extreme scenarios.Is the implication that survivors need a surrender outside of extreme scenarios? They're an elimination based role, so they only have to stick around to the end if they are the last survivor. Otherwise they get to leave a match before the killer, which allows them to get into another match faster. It was the entire premise behind go next advocates, being able to get out of a losing game faster and into another one where they had more potential. You can absolutely have a bad game without it being some extreme hostage situation.
Survivors for years had no choice but essentially be afk.Same for killers who refuse to swat survivors out. They just get the added bonus of loud noise notification spam from across the map. Survivors could at least be eliminated, preferably by just playing out the game like usual and dying since it is apparently inevitable, despite the potentials of both hatch and sneaking a cheeky exit gate if you end up being last.
Which didnt even work since killers carrying survivors stopped the bleedout timer.Likewise, if two survivors forever hide and finish at least one gen every 10 minutes, or force a regression event within the same cadence, they can theoretically go all the way up to the server shutdown. Not realistic, but if we want to talk about extremes that exploit oversights, this game never lacks them for either side.
Why would the "power role" surrender when they lost 5 gens when the game is yet to be over?.If you are playing chess, do you need to actually take the opponent's king, or just put them in a situation where any move they make would result in it? Likewise, why does the abandon feature on survivor side disregard "its not over yet" elements? Even on the individual level?
If you really wanted to surrender, you technically could by just opening the gate, pushing the survivors out or be afk and wait out the endgame collapse timer.Thats like saying you could just walk away or alt tab and do something else while waiting to bleed out. Oh, with the added bonus of constant
LoudNoiseNotification.wavandStevegull.ogg.People want solutions that respect their time just as much as their agency.At most, i can reasonably see bhvr adding a endgame collapse timer speed up if survivors are hovering around the gate.The target of loitering in the exit gate is good, but it needs to be more forward thinking than just that. You also don't want to punish regrouping in exit gates too hard, as it would reduce last second play attempts considerably. And believe it or not, that greed can easily be better for the killer than the survivor, so its a good element to keep. Thats why I feel like it should focus more on increasing risk (within reason) rather than reducing gameplay.
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Of all the threads that discussed the abandon issue, why did this one get necroed?
For the record, I'm pro giving the killer a surrender option, but
1: Right now, the game would just end, so it depends on whether its a hypothetical world where BHVR has fixed that issue.
2: Is the issue fairness (i.e., the survivors have this, so the killer should), or is it jus something that should exist (a good idea)?
The fairness issue is that BHVR's approach is agency - how much can the player do at this point in the game. The killer agency is still relatively high in these situations compared to the survivor equivalents.
The is it just a good idea - the difficulty is where to draw the line. Make it standing in the exit gates, survivors just stand slightly outside the exit gates. It's very easy to draw a line for the survivors where they are highly unlikely to advance their position (everyone slugged for example), then it is for the killer (as many people have said in the comments, many kills are obtained after gates opened). So you create the situation where BHVR puts a lot of work into coding an additional abandon option, only for survivors who are interested in bullying the killer to easily sidestep it.
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I would give you more than 1 upvote if I could.
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The Survivors escape except they screw up or the game ends and the survivors escape. So why are Survivors acting like it would be unfair if the Killer won´t need to see them escape?This is the biggest commonality across the isle. Nobody likes when their agency is entirely (or even mostly) dependent on the mistakes of your opponent, especially revolving around a game's outcome. Its a necessarily evil in micro play, but it stings the most in macro and endgame play. Even against a survivor standing just outside the exit gate, the killer still has more agency than against one who is positioned so that they will fall out of bounds when hit. The current abandon system's iteration protects exactly one side from being stuck in that situation more than necessary. People hate lose/lose scenarios, and the devs have acknowledged both that and the desire for maintaining direct agency, yet here we are.
So I ask again and maybe you can give me an simple answer. What are survivors losing except to bm the Killer when the Killer has the option to close the trial when these conditions are in play?Validation in their win. Its the same reason the jackass on a sports team would spit in their hand before the GG handshake. You just have less of a chance of the other player cracking you over the head with their helmet for it. Its not always that sinister, but in the end, a win cut short is far less rewarding. Its also the same reason killers would w/s and 4 man bleed survivors. Unfortunately some people just want to overenjoy it, opponent be damned.
"The Killers" aren't one person. The danger of us vs them attitudes is that it leads to grossly conflating arguments between anyone you deem as an "other."
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But that is kinda my point. If you stay outside of the exit gate and not the finish line the Killer has a chance.
I give you an examples:
Killer has noed and hits you at the exit gate line. You drop out. But if you are out of the gate even before the gate and the Killer hits you than the game is going on. Thats what I ment in my posts by saying the Survivor needs to screw up.
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Out of curiosity, since we agree on things like the load bearing structure of the killer role, what alternatives do you think would be fair to cut down on the varying degrees of hopelessness for killers in situations where they would want to abandon?
that said:
The fairness issue is that BHVR's approach is agency - how much can the player do at this point in the game. The killer agency is still relatively high in these situations compared to the survivor equivalents.That heavily depends on the situation. There can absolutely be plenty of dead man walking scenarios for killer, they just tend to get ignored due to a misplaced attribution of agency. Recycling my previous comparison, do you believe losing players in TF2 have agency during the endgame cooldown? They could always try to do things like dance around and goof off with the winners, but that usually gets ended pretty quickly followed up by kill screen taunts. They're kinda eerily similar the more I think about it.
I just really want to know how people define agency. I've seen it defined a few different ways, but I've always attributed it to
An individual's ability to impact the outcome of the game they are playing in a meaningful way,which usually focuses on progress toward their objective and/or a positive resolution. Having a "lose sooner" out (which both smacking out at the gate and abandon fit, to various degrees) respects the player's time more than without, but it doesn't do anything for their actual agency. They still can't do anything meaningful to improve their outcome, just mundane distractions like breaking pallets or cleansing totems, when they'd much rather be in a potentially more reasonable game state (aka next match.)If you stay outside of the exit gate and not the finish line the Killer has a chance.Selectively. There are easily situations where the survivor can be quite far from the gate at all and still not be able to be downed and picked up before they would reach it. The distance potential relies heavily on the game around it, via perks/addons/bodyblocks/instadowns/heal tech/endurance/exhaustion perks/killer/etc. Some killers can punish people inside the gates themselves if they don't position right, 3 allies heal teching can allow someone to crawl a lot farther than you'd think, a bodyblock congo line and a well placed dead hard can cover a good deal of distance and a lot of blade wipes. Nurse can literally be waiting in the exit gate as you open it, etc. Exit gate safety isn't really a static distance, so its important for any attempts to address it to recognize and account for that variation as fairly as possible.
But yeah, things like survivors falling out of the exit gate during the blade wipe are checkmates in all but the most extreme scenarios, like a gate already blocked before they get hit, or the survivor giving up their position for some reason.
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Go pour another drink? Toilet visit? Just do something else for a couple of mins if a toxic group is waiting around exit gate to t-bag. I don't understand how small things is such a huge problem for some people.
Back in the days getting facecamped by Bubba put a smile on my face as survivor while some just went nuts. Relax it's just a game!
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Then you can say the same to a 4 man slug just go pour another drink? Toilet visit? Just do something else for a couple of mins if a toxic killer is waiting around you to press W and S.
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Necrod thread but still holds valid concerns. agree with what GentleManFridge said. Wished the abandon system was never implemented. Its clear example of catering to the demands of one side while completely ignoring the other. Survivors are given the privilege to abandon the instant it's inconvenient for them but killers are forced to wait out he entire EGC on toxic Survivors tea bagging at the gates. Its also be shown that it completely ruins the data on escape and kill rates.
It needs to be reworked make it so it only becomes available after the last survivor is slugged for let's say 20 seconds which resets after a survivor is hooked or turns off after a survivor gets back on their feet. It forces them to stay for in to let killer finish the mori or hook everyone. Gives time for a survivor to pick themselve up if they have the right perk on and it still gives Survivors a chance to abandon and avoid the 4 min bleed out.
Edit: in case anyone says 'killer can just pick up and drop to avoid the 20 seconds.' Wiggle can be reworked slightly. Carried Survivors are still considered slugged and killers can no longer drop Survivors on their feet when pressing the drop button. Instead it stays on max of 99% and it must be the survivors physical manual input to instantly wiggle free.
Might be better what we have now, but would rather get rid of the abandon system entirely.
Post edited by BlackRabies on1 -
I wouldn't even necessarily say it's "catering to the demands of one side while ignoring the other". I am against the abandoning system as it is, and not in favour of expanding it further. I'm not all that invested into the whole 'let's make this equal' debate.
My point is that it's a luxury that should never have been granted to any side.
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I agree. Even before learning how much the abandon system was screwing up stats and MMR, I didn't use the option. I don't like the idea of just leaving a match that's not over. I'd rather a faster bleedout for really toxic slugging situations than the abandon. That would also pressure killers to hook instead of slug and risk losing the kill. I'm exhausted with the boring finisher moris like you wouldn't believe but I still put up with them because it's part of the match.
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