http://dbd.game/killswitch
When will killers stop tunneling??
Comments
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Survivors don't care about killer's fun, so why should killer care?
So not really a reason…
Just reward for unique hooks, where progress stop when survivor die. Not really difficult to do imo.3 -
There is already basekit anti-tunneling.
Which Survivors abuse to bodyblock, get downed, and then mald that they are being tunneled.Why should they get more basekit BS to abuse?
And what will happen then? Hint: Survivors will abuse it like they do basekit BT, then mald that they are still being tunneled.-1 -
True but we have to wait for antitunnel and more anticamp, antislug changes and see how much impact they have on the game for killer and then maybe in 2+ years devs will react.
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Killers always tunnel for "added challenge", so that makes sense.
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Tunneling is always going to be a thing. They'd have to change the whole game from the ground up to get rid of it.
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That is a different thing though, I go extremely out of my way to not tunnel as killer and if you get unhooked in front of me I will go out of my way to let you get away. However if you force me to eat the BT hit (endgame is a bit different) then I assume you would like me to tunnel you and I have no problem with killers doing so in that case. But we all know this scenario is not what people are complaining about
Yes, of course they will complain about hard tunnelling and understandably so, I already implied that. Survivors have always complained about it but it does seem to be getting worse and if the majority of the player base/paying customers (survivors) is having their experience ruined consistently by hard tunnelling killers, they will complain and it will force the devs hands.
You can get bad at me but I am just the messenger here; killers/streamers/content creators encouraging and promoting constant tunnelling will force extreme anti tunnel base kit mechanics into the game. Simple as that.
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There has to be a way to make the game fun for both sides, and bhvr should know by now the path forward to achieve that. they really need to test these changes more and incentivise people to test them more, coz people just run onto the PTB to see the new shiny stuff and that's it.
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Eager to see what they have planned for "anti tunnel" changes. Since they alredy made shoulder the burden, all i can see them doing is giving incentives to avoid tunneling, or the classic "extra protection added" when it comes to being unhooked lol
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"When will killer players stop ignoring our rulebook?"
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Killers will stop tunneling at 5 gen when they become more experienced and confident in their skill.
Don't expect them to stop tunneling if you do 2 or more gens when they only have 1 hook done. At this point tunneling someone out may end up the most effective way to secure the win, unless killer has some end-game perks loaded.
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(Sorry for the late answer.)
Oh they would be different. At this time it ends with an extremely hard/skewed match.
If this "hook pool shared by all survivor" would be depleted by one really weak teammate the game simply ends for everyone.
In the first case the other survivor have the chance to still play and hopefully have done enough progress, while the weak link got eliminated, to escape themselves.
But when the weak link is inevitably bringing the end of the whole match closer and closer, they would need to focus their efforts into protecting and/or hook denying, which isn't feasible while also making necessary progress.
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When gen regression equals progression so killers arent pressured to remove a survivor ASAP because every means of pressure is being nerfed and getting basekit counters.
When the game actually rewards for spreading hooks (which requires slowing the game down) and it isnt a detriment to the killers objective.
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This is an important point, that a lot of killers don't even realize it's crappy because the game doesn't tell you. When I started the game I played killer only and didn't understand the survivor end at all. A lot of rude messages made me realize I was acting poorly, and a lot of googling of terms helped, and I changed my ways and will now run right past a recently-unhooked survivor. But you shouldn't have to read up on a game to realize your sportsmanship is bad. The game could easily tell, reward, or punish you for various actions instead.
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Because they should care too. This is an equivalent trade.
Sure, would be nice. Not realistic tho.
"I give you the opportunity to have fun by adopting a fair (even sometimes dumb) behavior, so please provide me the same"
As long as people will remain selfish and be focused more on the win than on the game, minds will never change
I personally rarely tunnel unless survivors really asked for it and in most cases simply stop playing as soon 3 survivors die, so last survivor is free to get hatch, or sometimes even finish gens.
In my almost 3k hours, it happened only 2 times, where survivors were what I would call nice, while in winning position. It's very rare to see, yet they expect killer to do it basically in every game…
Being nice is rarely rewarded, often not even thanked. I usually do it more out of laziness tho.
That doesn't change the fact that only reason to not tunnel as killer is, if you want to be "nice", which I think is an issue, because you simply can't expect that from majority of people overall, not just in DBD. It may be sad, but it is what it is.-1 -
But survivors call everything tunneling. I was just accused of tunneling in my last match. The first survivor died on hook 6, and I hooked people in between all of his hooks. However, gens started getting done, and I had the chance to take him out of the game and I took it instead of going after the Meg that was trying to get my attention. "Tunneling."
Not only that, but if I've downed and hooked someone else since I've hooked you, you're fair game. I don't care if you only just got off hook because your buddies took their sweet time to unhook you.
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If the Killer's objective gets changed maybe. As "tunneling" (as you call it) is the Killer's objective, to kill.
Just like survivors "rush" generators. They have to repair generators.
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Theres alot more to it than that. What if they don't know if they have no choice or not but to tunnel? Cus thats how I think. Atp killers are scared of gen speeds and have no idea what survivors will run to end the game asap. If gen rushing gets nerfed, then tunneling can go, but otherwise killers need to tunnel against any competent team of opponents if they want a chance to win
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I don't know about that. In the last few days alone, I have a 90% win rate with an 85% kill rate. My only losses were against a good group that got gens done quickly while I was playing a memey Obsession build, and a group that had at least one "subtle" hacker (which I don't really count.)
Then again, I'm using Spirit. Would probably be a lot worse if I was playing, say… Knight.
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Even with nerfs to the repair speed, as long as the objective is a battle against the clock, the situation will not change.
It's about time to start thinking about removing generators from the game, they are not fun and never were. Performing skillchecks is a pitiful gameplay and totally lacking in interaction. I don't know what other objective could be introduced, but the current one has clearly lasted longer than it should.
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I think that making generators be fueled as well as repaired would go a long way. Make it take 60 charges of repair and 30 charges of fuel to finish a gen. Put the "fuel pump" right smack dab in the middle of the map. It would force survivors to be more interactive with the killer, as well, by making a high value area right in the middle of the map. It would also slow down generators without adding in a bunch of "hold m1" time.
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When they can't, I would say.
Because if even the strongest and most powerful killer metas in DBD's history weren't enough to stop killers from tunneling, then nothing is.
The "carrot" doesn't work here.
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Pulsar is correct. New people also have a tendency to do what is easiest. Going after the unhooked person naturally "feels" easier in most cases even if it isn't. Of course it's not the most efficient thing you can do, but that won't stop new Killers or even seasoned Killers from doing it when it's necessary. BHVR is in control of how these things work. Never expect players to play a certain way if not even the developers do… :/
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funny enough, there was an issue with bots tunneling in 2v8 that the Devs patched.
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But that wouldn't change the underlying problem, it's still a battle against the clock. If I want to gain an advantage or recover from an unfavorable start, I resort to tunneling.
Nowdays I clearly enjoy the most those matches against 4 trolls who try to laugh at the killer but don't repair. I deal a lot of hits, they have some laughs trying to pull their stuff and everyone is happy whoever wins.
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See, I hate those matches. Different strokes, I guess.
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There is a reason to spread hooks though: None of us should ruin the entire match for other players by tunneling.
It's always unreasonable to look at one person playing a game with other people and tell them "You don't get to participate in this game because I'm afraid I won't win if I don't do this."
If I tunnel out the first person I hook and then get a 3k or 4k as a result of that, I'd say that's a 'loss' for me, if there is such a thing as winning or losing in this game. In doing that, I ruin the experience of one of the other players by making them essentially not able to participate in the game. And the match is likely ruined for the remaining players also since if this is done well, the other players have little chance of finishing all the gens as a result of me treating a person poorly and engaging in what is essentially a cheap, easy way to get one player out. I don't see how that's not the best reason by far to not tunnel as a primary approach to the game.
As @AmpersandUnderscore also very accurately pointed out, there are times when tunneling can make sense. If you're in egc, it usually is expected and probably reasonable for the killer to camp and tunnel people. And at that point, everyone has played the game, had the chance to lose their chases for real, and had a chance to enjoy the game. But it's never reasonable to play a game with other people for fun and then essentially make them unable to participate in the game. I genuinely don't understand why anyone would tunnel as their primary approach from the start of the game, knowing the impact it has on the people they're sharing the game with.
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There is a reason to spread hooks though: None of us should ruin the entire match for other players by tunneling.
So only reason is that killer is supposed to care about survivors, while most survivors don't care about killers…
I never first hook tunnel, unless survivors really annoyed me, which is rare and I don't like when killers do it, so I try to play in away to not annoy them as well.
I think tunneling at 1-2 gens left is reasonable tho.
That doesn't change the fact there is not any logical reason for not tunneling. In many cases, it's simply best thing you can do to win and game gives you no reason to act otherwise.
Sure, it would be good if players on both sides were nice to each other, but they are not. You either need to punish killers for tunneling, which is unlikely to end well for multiple possible reasons, or reward killers for going after fresh hooks before killing a survivor.2 -
I'm not sure I understand what people mean by 'survivors' and 'killers'. Are we talking about players who play both roles and just happen to be playing survivor or killer? Or are we talking about the small number of players who are disproportionately playing one role? It's a genuine question because I think most of us play both roles :D
Either way, I guess my experience is vastly different to what you described. I drop survivors at hooks if they've been unlucky enough to get found repeatedly near the beginning of the game. That way they can get picked up and keep playing. And I find that survivors pretty often want to play around with me as killer, boop, or sometimes show me something in the environment. Maybe that's because I main Pig though.
On the other side though, I'll bring items or perks just to interact with the killer. Most often it's Bardic, Pebble, or a Halloween flashlight :D
I think it is logical though to consider the experience of other players. I've definitely had games where I'm nice to someone that later tries to bm, but most of my killer games end in ggs and glnm style comments.
Post edited by smurf on3 -
There is a reason to spread hooks though: None of us should ruin the entire match for other players by tunneling.
I genuinely don't understand why anyone would tunnel as their primary approach from the start of the game, knowing the impact it has on the people they're sharing the game with.
Have you ever watched a new player stream their first matches as killer?
As I said in a previous comment, DbD doesn't teach killers to spread hooks or pressure gens. The most intuitive way to play an elimination game is to take each opponent out one by one.
New players don't think of it as ruining anyone's game, they're just playing the objective. I've seen this in action watching new killer players stream. They're trying to figure out the basics: DbD isn't like anything else, skills and knowledge from other games don't transfer over. In one case, when some people who were long-time players started telling him how to play in chat, to spread hooks, he did try it out. And he lost badly, with fewer kills and a much lower Bloodpoint earning. So he went back to going for each survivor one by one, because to him it made no sense to play to lose.
DbD is not designed for intuitive and/or efficient play to be fun for the opposing side. It's a game design problem made worse by the fact that there's no tutorial to teach people to play un-intuitively (pressuring gens and spreading hooks instead of focusing on the objective of taking each survivor out one by one). The game doesn't give new killer players a thumbs up for getting more hooks. It used to give an "Entity displeased" message for no kills; now it's just "The Entity hungers", which is less morale crushing for new players when they lose, but there's still no glowing praise for prioritizing hooks over kills.
When the game rewards new players for playing a certain way and doesn't even attempt to teach them otherwise, it's only natural they keep playing that way.
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That's very true :D
I actually remember when I first started playing and felt a little jarred when someone said "camping is insane!" I didn't know exactly what camping meant, but I guessed correctly and stopped doing it because I realized what experience it might cause for players on the receiving end.
I think a small but useful adjustment would be to decrease bp for hook trends characteristic of tunneling, and increase bp rewards for not tunneling.
But I find it weird that when people learn about tunneling and camping and how it feels to be on the receiving end, they don't adjust their playstyles :(
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According to Behavior, tunneling is a legit strategy. As long as it is never made a bannable offense, killers are going to continue to use strategies like tunneling to help them win.
Invalid report reasons – Dead by Daylight
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But I find it weird that when people learn about tunneling and camping and how it feels to be on the receiving end, they don't adjust their playstyles :(
My best guess there is that it's a matter of what feels worse to a person: does empathy for the other side make winning when tunneling feel lousy, or does it feel worse for the player when they lose? Survivors themselves may have a hand in which way the killer player leans: the more a killer player experiences bad winners who gloat when the killer tries to spread hooks, the more likely the killer player will have less empathy for survivors.
But that's a guess based on personal experience and observation, not a statement of fact.
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I'd guess that's most of what plays into it 🙂
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usually if you play killer long enough it's just survivors t-bagging going gg and ez if you play by the rule book and getting a 0k and getting t-bagged at the gate isn't fun for me
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as someone who started as a survivor main then became a killer main
i do feel empathy towards the killer when i'm playing survivor since i can abuse tiles like shack or t-wall i understand how to run the killer just loses gens
when i play killers against survivors i do feel pity if i 2 stage someone too quick so i'll just ignore them and then that pity goes straight out the window since they act toxic and start taunting me when the gens go too low
so you're right in this statement
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If it’s possible then it will be done. Nothing to do with it being necessary or not. The first 2v8 had no reason to slug. Hook were instant with a teleport, no flashlight saves, no pallet saves, no sabo saves. But it still happened , so much so that they had to change the game in the next 2v8 to try and counter the slugging. Players will (usually) always take the path of least resistance. The only way to stop tunneling is to make it not possible, or to make it harder to do than hooks.
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Again when Gen regression is improved Killers will be able to handle the 4 Survivors V 1 Killer
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Well sure, there are always those people who consider the most absurd things tunnelling but I think the vast majority of us know what hard tunnelling is.
I am talking about killers who the second you unhook, they return to hook and even if I try to block them and take aggro away from the survivor I unhooked, they absolutely will not hit me unless I completely block their tunnel and they have to hit me to get past but even then they will continue to target the survivor who just came off hook.
This kind of hard tunnelling is the problem, not the delusions of survivors who think they should be immune from chase for the next 5 minutes after an unhook.
I say keep it up, doing this will just contribute to the devs being forced to implement base kit anti tunnel measures. All the killers relying on tunnelling to win matches will be in real trouble then, as they will have to actually learn to play the game and how to pressure gens rather than rely on tunnelling (and NOED) to compensate for poor plays.
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As someone who has quite literally not taken Bardic off any of my builds since getting it (except to do spiders meme builds), it feels extra miserable when I'm just playing off spawn or near a gen I am near and the killer goes and hard focuses me for just trying to have fun, is the perk mid? Yes. Does that mean I deserve to get tunneled because I chose to not immediately cancel it so you could chase me? Not at all. Is this fairly uncommon? Sure, about 1/4 games, but I know for a fact when someone is playing that silly instrument I am leaving them alone or walking up to them to nod at them in agreement. Everyone deserves to have fun playing the game.
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'You deserve to have your fun ruined because you didn't play into the arbitrary rules that the killer wants to follow'. So I as a survivor have to play into the killers power fantasy and ego trip because I wanted to have fun instead of sweating with exclusively meta perks?
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I think there's a good compromise when the killer doesn't want to be playful where the killer waits and watches the song finish before chasing. But when we act all silly, I think we also have to acknowledge that there's a risk involved.
I'll usually try to boop at some point in any match against a Pig. But I have to accept that I might be giving the Pig a free hit if I do it before endgame. Similarly, I kept doing the indoor gen on the new map for a while and would run up on the stage to play a lute for the killer. Sadly, no killers have applauded my efforts :(
But you're definitely not the only one who tries to lighten the mood with the killer. I did get a Xeno to watch me play the whole song outdoors before he hit me and chased earlier. Also, 100% of killers have spared me when I open the secret room on Nostromo and play a lute in there for them :)
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So you stand out in the open, get out an instrument that makes a bunch of noise, and sit still for a lengthy period of time… and don't expect to get slapped?
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The thing is… I don't think many survivors know what "tunneling" is anymore. Sure, you have the people on the forums and the like who know, but I have a feeling that a lot of the people posting, "I can't stand tunneling every match!!!!!" threads aren't getting tunneled every match. "Tunneling" has become a catch-all for "killed me quicker than I would have liked."
The fact of the matter is, hard tunneling only happens in about 10% of games. Multiple content creators have verified this independently over thousands of combined games. If you pay attention to your own survivor games, I'm sure you'll notice that in most games, nobody is dead before hook 5 or 6… which by definition isn't hard tunneling. So if BHVR only goes after "hard tunneling" in their "anti-tunnel" update, I have a feeling that A LOT of survivor players are going to be upset that they didn't go further.
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Ah, yeah. As someone who plays Killer pretty frequently, I can tell how much Survivors care about my fun and the game's health!
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Well, that's why they have a little dance party in the exit gates every time you lose. It's to show you a good time!
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How about killer getting increased breakin speefs if they've hooked four unique survivors?
+30€ on breaking or other things and once a survivor dies the killer loses the buffs?
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Or slower gen speeds or like 10% kick regression
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I disagree, I think most of us know very well what hard tunnelling is, it isn't rocket science and we all see it regularly.
As I said, sure there are delusional people who have warped ideas on what constitutes tunnelling but they aren't part of the honest conversation and I do not believe the issues being brought up are just people who don't know what hard tunnelling is.
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Give killers a 5th perk on 3 different people hooks 🪝
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