http://dbd.game/killswitch
What do YOU think BHVR is going to do to address tunneling?
Comments
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if you’re not supposed to win why even try?? What r f is even the purpose of the game if you’re not supposed to win that is such backwards logic.
-5 -
The only way tunneling can be stamped out completely is either shared entity progression where the survivors share the hook states then maybe first one dies on like 8th or 9th hook or the other method would be to stack survivors with anti-tunnel defence like Off The Record and DS basekit. Would need massive changes to maps, gen speeds etc so prob not gonnae happen.
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What I hope will be implemented? Maths:
Grant the survivor with the most hooks:
1% haste and vaulting speed per generator, per hook surplus. (aka, if there are 5 gens, and 1 survivor is hooked twice while no one else is hooked? 10% haste and vaulting speed. If there are 3 gens, 1 survivor is hooked twice, another survivor is hooked once, 3% haste and vaulting speed).
It will naturally go down as gens go, so by the time you NEED to tunnel, its not gonna be too hard. On top of that, you can counterplay it as killer by hooking someone else.
The only flaw in this scenario, is survivors 99'ing gens, but even that flaw disappears the moment you hook someone else.
The benefit in this, is that if you do manage to get an early kill, no one else gets the protection.
You could hook survivor 1, then survivor 2, then tunnel survivor 2 for a second hook without the haste being applied. A survivor can only get 10% if they are the first to have been hooked, or they are the second to be hooked but used Shoulder the Burden, and no one finished any gens.-2 -
Thank god you arent in charge of balance
Survivors have enough tools at their disposal to counter tunneling and punish killers for doing it.
If you get tunneled and arent able to buy your team enough time to finish most of the gens - skill issue
Also tunneling isnt nearly as prevalent as people make it out to be.
-4 -
- If a killer is following survivor A, and survivor B repeatedly changes directions to get in between the killer and survivor A, then survivor B is intentionally bodyblocking
- To expand on this, the game could detect if the killer is clearly trying to go around another survivor. As in, if the killer repeatedly changes direction to move away from survivor A, but survivor A repeatedly changes direction to be in front of the killer, then survivor A is clearly intentionally bodyblocking
- Also, if survivor B is in a choke point, and stops moving even though the killer is running in that direction, then survivor A is clearly intentionally bodyblocking. The important factor is the survivor is positioned in a way that prevents the killer from traveling in that direction, which means that standing in front of a window also counts as standing in a choke point.
- As an extra note for point #4, the survivor should still be considered as intentionally bodyblocking, even if they are tapping the direction buttons (or slowly moving near the same spot), because they are still preventing the killer from traveling through that checkpoint.
Post edited by Coffeecrashing on-2 -
I can see the vision here, but I also think this would be really difficult to implement and has way too high a chance of backfiring.
Wouldn't it be simpler to just take away the survivor's ability to bodyblock entirely, by having them lose collision? That seems like a safer and easier to implement/balance solution to me.
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That won’t work, because survivors could purposely overlap with the killer, and block their vision.
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They're not going to hurt their own wallets. I highly doubt DS becomes basekit in any form. Perks as basekit are revenue losses for them.
If they're getting really creative, they iterate on 3v1 and 2v1 scenarios so they're not automatic losses for the survivors. Address tunneling by making it less impactful.
It would also be a healthier way of addressing the go-next problem. DbD matches are often over 5-10 minutes before they actually end, but players are expected to stick it out. That's not great.
Of course, we've seen that the carrot method doesn't work with player behavior. So the solution might end up being punitive.
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Killers will always move faster than the Survivor trying to block so that doesn't matter
The real issue I think would be the issue of aim dressing causing Killer's to autolock onto a survivor who they are currently passing through. If aim dressing auto locks Killer's on random bits of terrain it for sure would lock onto a survivor currently hiding inside their collision box
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Okay, give me 1 tool thats basekit, consistent against all killers and that works even if the killer brought perks that slow down gens quite significantly without needing to be there (DMS, Deadlock, Pain Res, Surge, Grim)
Just 1. You claim they have enough tools, I am just asking for 1 basekit tool.
Killers have plenty of basekit tools to slow down gens and speed up chases. Hook survivors in an area you want to deadzone. Down survivors while picking up another chase to go from 3 people on gens to at most 2 people on gens. Tunnel survivors if a kill is absolutely needed.
Also, tunnelling literally happens at 5 gens in 60% of my games. It REALLY is as prevalent as people make it out to be. If it wasnt prevalent, people wouldnt be so loud.
On top of that, even if it WERENT prevalent, a solution is still needed.
And if you think 3% haste and vaulting speed increase is too much to deal with, hook someone else first. Then you can focus both out. If you really think that math is bad, then you rely too much on tunnelling in the first place. It's been generally agreed that the most optimal path for killers should be surv 1, surv 2, surv 1, surv 2 or 3, surv 1.
Based on average generator progression, that would mean you're dealing AT MOST, with 3 gens remaining. Which is roughly the same point where you start needing a kill. If more gens are gone, you're only dealing with 1 or 2%. Both are basically non-existant to vaults, and the value for haste is far too low for that.
If you cant manage to get a kill on someone who is only 2% faster - skill issue
But what about those games where you simply cant get any hooks? - skill issue
What about Made For This? - Nerf the perk-1 -
Multiple content creators have done studies. Hard tunneling only occurs in like 10% of games.
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That's a much easier problem to fix than wrestling spaghetti code for detecting the difference between intentional and unintentional bodyblocks, surely?
Make it so the survivor's model goes invisible if it overlaps, and also just to mention it here, make it so survivors can't use items so there's no unstoppable flashlight saves, and you've covered 95% of possible issues already.
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The thing that annoys me is that you literally can't even control tunnelling sometimes. Like if the surv who was just unhooked sometimes crosses your path randomly a short time afterwards. And killers need to be allowed to punish if the survs go for an unhook while he's still in the area.
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To be fair, you'd punish that by chasing the unhooker, who starts the chase right next to you- and even injured if you can hit them while they're getting the unhook.
-1 -
I understand where you’re coming from, some killers definitely have a harder time than others, and there are matches where tunneling can feel like the only viable option. But not all matches require it, and not all killers are equally dependent on it. There’s a big difference between strategic tunneling in endgame and tunneling someone off hook at 5 gens. It’s not about eliminating tunneling altogether, just addressing its most extreme and unfun forms. Just like anti-camp mechanics didn’t remove camping entirely, they targted facecamping.
If a killer has to tunnel every single match just to get a kill, I’d argue that points more to a design flaw with the killer than a justification for making tunneling the norm. That’s exactly why any killers struggling after anti-tunnel changes should be looked at individually and given buffs where needed. We should all want killers to feel strong without having to rely on specific strategies. And for what it’s worth, current stats show that all killers are performing well, regardless of where they land on personal tier lists.
As for survivor second-chance perks, yes, they exist. (The entire survival role is built upon “second chances” that’s why they have multiple hook states) But those perks are conditional, often single-use, and require setup and pre-planning, and behind a pay-wall. Tunneling doesn’t require a perk, has no restrictions, no cooldown, is free, and is always available. That’s a major difference. This isn’t about “babying” survivors, it’s about making sure the game loop is actually engaging for both sides.The entire game has shifted drastically over the years, and I’m sure you and I would agree that it didn’t change because they were “babying killers”. It changed because killer players became very unhappy within their role and the quality of life suffered. Concerns and frustrations were thankfully taken seriously and the game changed.
Survivor burnout is happening now and it deserves the same attention and care that the killer role received years ago. It’s not fair to say that one role is deserving of QOL and not the other.There’s got to be a middle ground where weaker killers are given support through better base kits, while survivors still have a fair chance to play the game.
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Hard tunnelling meaning that as soon as someone gets unhooked they drop everything and go back to the unhooked survivor. Tunnelling at 5 gens only requires having enough pressure to maintain 5 gens and then still deciding to tunnel someone out rather than just going for someone they havent hooked yet.
And its not that hard for certain killers to have enough pressure to keep 5 gens. Corrupt Intervention on Kaneki, while having pain res, grim and dms can be enough to keep 5 gens on a map like Haddonfield.2 -
They already can, by hitting the unhooking survivor, or hitting the unhooked survivor while they are unhooking. The punishment is a hooktrade.
If they did get nearby, then the punishment for the survivor is basically 0 seconds before the killer found a new chase and a very quick injure. The risk of the survivor there is hoping the unhooked teammate will end up saving more time than they wasted getting into chase so quickly.
Why does "punishing" always come down to "I am free to tunnel the one player who had 0 decisions to make", rather than just accepting the natural punishment of a shorter chase than if you were to find that survivor out there on your own?
I mean, unless you're okay with giving survivors 15% increased generator progress speed if a killer drops everything to go back and tunnel. Yknow, punishing him for tunnelling.0 -
Here's how I look at it. If you die at hook 3, you were tunneled. Hook 4, yeah still probably tunneled. If you die at hook 5, you weren't tunneled. Hook 6 and beyond, definitely not tunneled. You had a chance to play the game and get some gen work and heals in. I don't care if you just got off hook, or whatever. Tunneling doesn't mean "killed me earlier than I would have liked."
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IF you die on hook 6, you can definitely still be tunneled.
Survivor One: Hook 1, 2 and 3.
Survivor Two: Hook 4, 5 and 6.
or
Survivor One: Hooks 1, 2 and 4
Survivor Two: Hooks 5, 6 and 7.
Survivor Three: 3, 8 and 9.
Just say the line already.
Post edited by Pulsar on0 -
Basekit killer features to slow down gens? You mean the kick that does nothing? And then regresses 1/4th every second? Meanwhile survivors have basekit bt wich they can use to body block the killer and then cry to bhvr for more basekit changes?
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"IF you die on hook 6, you can definitely still be tunneled.
Survivor One: Hook 1, 2 and 3.
Survivor Two: Hook 4, 5 and 6."
Survivor two wasn't tunneled.
-3 -
Not really. We can already see how that is with Sadako. Vision doesn't really get impaired.
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Hooked three times consecutively without a break isn't tunneling, you heard it here first.
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They are probably just going to up the numbers on the basekit bt. Maybe they will also make it so that killers can't bodyblock survivors with endurance and vice versa. Though I can already see the complaints now about how they can't take hits with bt anymore.
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Genuinely, how is that not tunnelling? They were hooked three times consecutively, which strongly implies the killer chased them after unhook, which is pretty clearly tunnelling by most definitions.
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Call it whatever you want, it doesn't matter. Survivor Two in your scenario had a chance to "play the game." Isn't that the complaint about tunneling? "It feels bad to load into a match and just get hooked and never have a chance to play the game!" That's the only argument against it.
Survivor Two got some gens in, got some heals in, and got to play the game. Apparently, that's not good enough. So what's the time limit? How long must a survivor be unhooked for in order to be "fair game" again? Five minutes? At least one gen? What's the arbitrary number?
No, what you're really complaining about is that your chases came when you were in a weakened position instead of a ten second head start into God pallets and main building into about 30 seconds of shift+W. You're outing yourself.
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Outing myself as a Killer main with the ability to understand the game, perhaps.
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No. Because it still means the survivor can run in front of the killer, try to make confusing scratchmarks or noises, drop pallets to make pallet saves, an just do flashlight saves after the collision is back to normal.
And survivors can still block line of sight from the killer, even when the character models aren’t overlapping. For example, if the killer is chasing survivor A, and survivor A vaults a window, if survivor B stands in front of the window, then the killer might not be able to see which direction survivor A went.
And it doesn’t address the fact that if a survivor is purposely trying to hinder the killer from chasing someone else, they aren’t being tunneled, and therefore all their anti-tunnel perks should deactivate.
That isn’t true during the post-hook haste, especially if perks like babysitter are being used.
-1 -
I think those are a bit of a stretch, honestly. Outside of maybe pallet saves and the window thing once in a thousand games, I don't think any of those things would really be a problem.
It also does address that last part by virtue of making it so they can't hinder the killer from chasing someone else. They can be mildly distracting but they can't actually get in the way anymore.
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Nice rebuttal. Really well thought out.
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Complaints about not getting to play the game are hyperbole and shouldn't be taken 100% literally in my opinion, but even outside of that, the reason that complaint is made is because of how little agency you have while being tunnelled, not because you're the first person to die/you died too early.
When the killer chooses to target you off-hook in this hypothetical, you still don't have that much agency. Outside of perks, your ability to fight back is extremely limited, which means those perks become must-runs or you risk getting your agency taken away in any given match. It's not great for the game.
It's a good example here of why generally speaking it's a good idea to decouple discussions of game problems from the specific way those problems are commonly complained about, imo. Better to focus on the problem than the complaint.
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Default unhook haste is only 10% for 10 seconds, majority of killers are 115% if not faster with powers. So majority of the cast would be faster by default and the others the same speed. The only killer that'd be slower is Nurse and I really doubt you're about to make the argument that's an issue.
And factoring in perks that might be in play is a bad way to try and counter that argument because the same logic goes both ways. What if the killer has haste perks? What if they have ways to inflict hindered? What if they have STBFL?
It's not good logic imo
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So it's literally, "I didn't have a chance to start chase fully healed at a strong loop."
-4 -
May I remind you off the fact that removing 4.5 seconds isnt "nothing" and that generators were implemented without regressing at all? Or how you ignored the fact that killers can basekit slug or hook survivors to keep them off gens? Or the fact that survivors can in theory die within 1 minute of playing the game despite them sitting in queue for 15 minutes, while killers are basically guaranteed a 10 minute match regardless of their queue time?
Or that killers dont really need any specific perks to win the game? Even with 4 hex totems, all found within the first minute of the match, the killer can still win the game through basekit mechanics. It wont be easy, sure, but they still can.
The basekit mechanics against tunnelling and slugging are far from good nough. Because you cant really bodyblock with basekit bt. If you are blocked for 8 seconds by basekit BT and fail to down the survivor who is blocking you, that's on you, you had 8 entire seconds to hit them and didnt, then failed to down them.
The literal basekit counter to basekit bt bodyblocking is to m1 instantly. Costs you less than 2 seconds, costs them more than 10 seconds(they gotta run to safety before they can mend). Considering with 4 survivors alive we tend to use 1 killer second = about 4.5 survivor seconds, meaning for every second you invest, you want survivors to spend 4.5 seconds. Just hit them ASAP.
If body blocking is also that common to you, bring Forced Penance. 80 seconds of being broken is really strong pressure because you can visit them in 85 seconds and know for a fact they wont be healed up yet.2 -
No, their actual point is if a Killer returns to the hook immediately and you just so happen to have nothing to work with - you're going back on that hook for the 2nd time and probably the final time as well if the Killer is so inclined
Loop strength has nothing to do with it. You could get hooked in the killer shack with the pallet and window all still there but if the Killer bodyblocks you until your endurance is gone or has a power that can stop you from getting there to begin with, what then? Back to square one.
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No, it's the opposite extreme.
When you're targeted post-unhook, you aren't even starting the chase neutrally. You're starting the chase with a huge advantage given to the killer, because you're right on top of them and already injured. That's why the post-unhook Endurance exists, too, so you at least get to have that chase even if it's extremely stacked in the killer's favour; before, you were just downed, no chase required.
Now, the killer getting a chase like that isn't inherently broken if they did something to engineer it, like successfully sneaking up on someone. In this case, though, all the killer did was… be near the hook when the unhook happened. For some killers they don't even have to be that close, with the right kind of mobility.
Even when the killer sneaks up on you as survivor, you often have agency of some kind- hell, you could've seen or heard the killer coming, so at least when you're just smacked out of nowhere it could fairly be considered your mistake. Here, the killer chose to target you when you were animation locked and had no way to avoid it, and gets an easy chase for free. There's no trick you can pull to undo the advantage, you just have to outplay them to a disproportionate degree, in general, for no cost or expectation on their end.
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Hook 5 depends on the order of hooks. If you get off the hook and the killer comes to chase you, you're being tunnelled. Hard tunnelling is hook 3 or hook 4 (arguably hook 5, depending on details, if the killer hooks someone else, then comes back because they know you're about to be unhooked and then chase you, you're still being tunnelled quite hard).
Tunnelling isnt always bad either, you can tunnel a survivor in a 2v1, because exitgates are powered and you know they dont have DS or OTR. Its still tunnelling tho. Basically, if you are in chase with the only stop(s) being hooked, you're being tunnelled.0 -
im on a bus rn, i ain't typing out a huge response.
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Ok. So if we're going to eliminate "killer advantage in chase," then we should eliminate survivor advantage in chase as well, right? No more God pallets, no more exhaustion perks, every tile is a 50/50. That's fair, right?
Sometimes in life, you play at a disadvantage. Adapt and overcome. Or don't, and Behavior will come hold your wittle hand.
-5 -
I don't really get where your survivor antagonism comes from
You realise both sides have it hard in the game sometimes yeah? Killers get 4 man outed and bmed in the endgame chat, Survivors get sent from 1st to 3rd stage before they've even had a chance to touch a generator.
And I'm not even really for full on 'anti-tunnel' changes if they are too extreme because i think "tunnelling" in a certain form is necessary sometimes. It should be a tactic, not a full on playstyle.
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I don't think there's much point in continuing this conversation at this point. Fair enough, man, have a nice day.
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Survivor one was tunneled and then survivor two was tunneled.
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And I'm not ok with hard tunneling. But if we're getting to hook 5 or 6, you weren't hard tunneled. No matter the hook order. You had a chance to play the game.
-1 -
Chance to play the game != tunneling. I think that's the point of confusion for everyone.
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You literally try to argue that slugging or hooking survivors is some basekit tool killers have. Ok.
Looping, dropping pallets and doing gens is the basekit survivors have on top of a free borrowed time.
People play a dozen games or so per day and they get tunneled in one match and thats all they remember from their gaming session.
Its like when killers whine about constantly playing against the top 1% swf stacks constantly - they dont.
Many content creators have done plenty of testing regarding tunneling/slugging and it happens far between.
From personal experience (almost always solo or duoq), i also rarely get tunneled or see someone getting tunneled.
And im currently sitting at a ~60% escape rate.
So yes it is indeed a skill issue
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Complaints != real issues.
The issue with tunneling is that the amount of skill required for the reward it presents is wildly disproportional. Every other complaint with tunneling harkens back to it.
As a Killer, you need very little skill to successfully execute a tunnel out. The game rewards you massively for it as well. As Survivor, it is insanely difficult to counter a tunnel out. There really isn't any preventing it, but wasting time can allow your team to win. However, even IF you manage to loop the Killer long enough (big ask with modern map design, looking at you Haddonfield) you are relying on your team, which is almost always gonna be disappointing.
It seems like you just have a huge issue with people playing Survivor. Even when people like me, who don't really play Survivor and in fact exclusively played Killer for years, give a dissenting opinion to your drivel, you lose your mind and start with ad hominem attacks.
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And yet, Killer's catchup mechanics are basekit across all powers and work at every stage of the trial. And unlike perks or maps, have been immune to nerfs and changes for 9 years now. Even with the proposed changes on the horizon, there's no guarantee they'll be affected very much at all.
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I've been reading your posts for years and you always have your finger on the pulse of Survivor, which is a rarity. I always know that your take in any thread is gonna be spot on, so thanks for that. 😎 Your old sewercidalslut name still pops in my mind every now and then lmao
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Less bloodpoints when you tunnel
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?
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