http://dbd.game/killswitch
Let's talk gens and healing
Or more specifically, the impact healing buffs have on gens. Healing is a passive slowdown to gens. The more time spent healing = less time spent on gens.
But now that healing has gotten buffed, and the plethora of healing perks that exist, it comes out too… less time spent healing = more time on gens. People can get unhooked and be full health in 2-3 seconds.
Botany knowledge at just a flat 50% increase to healing across the board for free, is egregious. The highest botany ever was before is 33%. It got buffed to 50%, BECAUSE of the efficiency decrease it had on medkits. If it's going to not have the efficiency negative… it shouldn't still be 50%. And the more people figure out just how busted resurgence is, the more you'll start to see that.
So that comes to my main point. Gens haven't gotten any slower to do (and in fact have arguably gotten faster due to less of that passive slowdown from healing), but gen regression perks… have only gotten worse. A LOT worse. And who does this negatively affect? All the killers not named blight and nurse.
Like… there's one viable gen regression perk, that being pain res (which even THAT is a shadow of itself). Everything else needs to be stacked with multiple other gen perks for it to be meaningful.
I fully believe it would be healthier for the game, if there was just a straight up cap put on how many gen regression perks you can have in your loadout. You block off the ability to have things like cob, overcharge, and pop again. BUT, you actually let perks be useful because you don't have to fear creating another 3 gen meta situation. You don't need to make them broken, you just need to make them meaningful.
They've all been butchered, but gens haven't gotten slower to compensate.
Comments
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People will down vote you without backing it up but you're right.
The healing meta is here and you mention botany but desperate measures also got a massive buff and people haven't caught on to how nutty it is yet.
We're at the point where everyone can have old CoH healing speeds and it basically means hit and run is dead again.
We literally nerfed med-kits for this reason and I feel like BHVR forgot why they did that.
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If healing is such a problem, why not switch from Gen Slowdown to Heal Slowdown?
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To be fair, Botany at 50% with the penalty and Botany at 50% without the penalty really aren't that different as far as I can tell. There are basically three use cases for Botany that are different now:
- You can actually use a medkit you got from a chest now. This is good, but not broken, they still spent time opening the chest.
- You can actually get two heals via addons from the healing action as opposed to one healing action and one heal from a syringe. This is… consistent, now, but not really better than before.
- Altruist builds got a bit better. Nobody uses these so it doesn't matter.
While healing overall is really good right now, I don't think it's problematic. Resurgence builds for 3 second heals only work twice and take up a good few perk slots/item slots depending on how they're allotted and everything else isn't so fast that healing downtime isn't meaningful anymore.
I also heavily disagree there's only one viable gen perk. It's already questionable to only look at regression and not other slowdown - as Grim Embrace, Corrupt Intervention, and even arguably Deadlock or DMS are actually the strongest slowdown tools right now - but even then, viable is a lower bar than top tier, so you can go as weak as Eruption before tripping it. You also don't need perks to manage gen speeds, and haven't done for years.
That said, there should be something to limit regression perks within a build so each one can be a bit more impactful without worrying about things getting out of hand. I'd definitely support that.
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The problem with old CoH was SELF heals being stupidly fast, and we're nowhere close to that right now. Altruistic heals being very fast can still be scary, but it's not as damaging as self heals being very fast by a long shot.
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Botany Knowledge can probably be tuned down a smidge meet it the middle between the 33 and 50. Ngl it’s kinda nuts. Don’t get me wrong I very much enjoyed it while I’m going through my a-z perk challenge, but it’s yeah. I would definitely tune it down before or when introducing the anti tunnel/slug changes for sure.
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if you want to complain maybe complain about the right thing, people are healing quick mostly because of we'll make it and resurgence… and medkits with add ons are very strong, minor buff to botany doesn't change anything
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Healing is not buffed
a couple of healing perks got buffed but when survivors run these perks they are bringing less perks for aura reading, gens, saving, supporting teammates, chasing etc
Apparently what a few people want is for healing to be completely gutted and every survivor will bring No Mither with Resilience and rush gens. At least not a single second will be wasted on healing, a pletora of killer perks will have no effect anymore and killer won't be able to slug anymore.
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Because most of the heal slowdown perks are awful… and when you switch to heal slowdown. Congrats, you don't have anything to fight against gens.
I'm talking strictly gen regression. Gen blockers are alright but grim embrace is pointless until the 4th hook where it's meaningful and DMS is only useful with pain res because it will force them off the gen… which is the one viable regression perk.
But in terms of regression perks? CoB even at 150% is trash. Overcharge is trash. Eruption is a straight up detriment to use. Undone was dead on arrival. Ruin has been dead for god knows how long at 100% regression. Jolt is only usable on M1 killers and even then it's dependent on smaller maps (on top of it triggering on low progress gens which eats up a regression event you didn't need so it can also be a detriment at times). Oppression is a fun gimmick perk that basically becomes useless against survivors that can hit a skill check (which is most of them).
And even IF we want to talk about deadlock, grim, and pain res + dms. That's still a part of the problem. We're talking about the top of the top. It's the top perks or nothing, because the other ones aren't just "meh", they're terrible.
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Yea if we're calling the botany buff "minor" then we're just being disingenuous.
I also did say resurgence.
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I find posts like this hilarious.
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Right, but my point is, why limit yourself to just regression? Even if all of those perks were terrible… they're not the only kind of slowdown, there are other types of perks that perform an identical function within your build that are much, much better. Outside of something like Undone, I can't think of any gen-blocking perks that aren't good off the top of my head— limiting yourself to just regression makes it seem like your options for slowing the game down are dwindling and worthless, but they're not.
As for regression perks themselves, they're doing okay. There are some genuinely weak ones like Undone or even arguably Pop, but most of them work in the right build or on the right killer- for example, while Ruin's by no means top tier, it does work pretty okay if you support it with other hexes, or with something like Surveillance. Similarly, Eruption's pretty decent on very mobile killers that can kick gens quickly, like Wraith or Blight. There are options, they're just not as crazy, no-effort impactful as Pain Res is.
Which, for the record, they shouldn't have to be. The bulk of your slowdown should be coming from your gameplay and these perks should only be enhancing it.
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Because most of the heal slowdown perks are awful… and when you switch to heal slowdown. Congrats, you don't have anything to fight against gens.
Because you only have 1 Perk Slot? Also, nobody said it should be 4 Perks against healing. In the end, healing is the current flavor of the month why Killers are losing games. Before it was Duty of Care. And before that it was Shoulder the Burden. And so on, because it has to be something which Survivors have.
But - if you run 4 Gen Slowdowns (as an example) and think they are bad, why not switch up the build? Gift of Pain is a really strong Perk for example, provides healing slowdown when needed AND on top of that reduces repair speed.
I just dont understand why whenever Survivors complain they have to adapt, but when Killers complain about >current thing which makes them lose games<, they cannot adapt. Weird.
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Even if Killers start using Anti-Healing perks it wouldn't help much cause there's a couple of Perks that help repair Gens while injured so it's just one thing or the other
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I feel like @ScottJund did a good job discussing this.
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I mean you can delete the perk botany right now, and you will still play against instant heals with we'll make it+ resurgence +med kits, so yeah complain about botany if you want
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We've got Huntress' bloodlust perk and Alien's no bloodlust one which already proves that there can be perks that prevent one from working.
BHVR could make it so Pain Res has a secondary effect where for 45s any gen or just the pain res'd one starts regressing if the killer comes near them, so PGTW/kicking perks cannot be used on those.
It's already been done back then where Ruin & PGTW were the Meta, until Ruin got cleansed you couldn't use kicking perks.
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I actually had an idea myself a while back, there's a thread for it I made still floating around - I think the healthiest way forward would be to make it so gens that are currently regressing can't be affected by generator blocking or by instant-regression explosions.
That sounds like a bigger deal than it is, because gens are only regressing if you made them regress. Meaning, if you bring perks for blocking gens or taking progress off them… you'd just not kick gens you think are likely to be affected, and you'll be fine. It'll mostly only affect you if you have multiple perks that would start a gen regressing, and/or you're out there kicking gens for the sake of kicking gens.
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I actually tried with weeping wounds and leverage and it honestly does not make a noticeable difference when survivors are already 70% healed off hook.
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Can you decide what is the problem? Is it healing or not healing? You act as if Killers are always losing games, because they cannot injure Survivors and they cannot have them healthy.
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Except they don't enhance it. Ruin at 100% sucks. Eruption is a detriment to use, it's not about what killers can use it or not. Any killer can use eruption, the problem is the regression it gives DOES NOT make it worth the fact that it eats up 2 regression events for one use out of it. The only time I ever see the regression events start kicking in, is when I use eruption. It's a detriment.
I never said I only limit myself to regression my point is the only other options you brought up were the gen blocker perks that are the same thing as pain res. The top of the top.
Because again, it's either the top or nothing because the other stuff is woefully bad.
Why are you acting like the only thing I pointed out is botany?
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I also find ones like yours funny.
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Just go back to hook immediately and tunnel
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IMO Weeping Wounds (I need to remember that it is not Gift of Pain anymore…) and Leverage together is not good. Because the Slowdown is too big so that Survivors are more inclined to hop on a Gen and only heal after the Perks expired. So you dont really get much value from it, only really bad Survivors would actually heal against any form of Mangled while they also have slow healing speed tue to leverage.
And well, Weeping Wounds at least changes the 70% to around 50% when unhooking someone with Resurgence.
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More time spent on healing = less time on gens is only really an effective argument in the first place if survivors are actually spending time healing which they arent. Not really. When you can full heal someone right off the hook in the killers face so fast it happens in like 3 seconds, thats not slowing survivors down at all.
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Yea that's my point. Healing (especially off the hook) is entirely inconsequential because you can do it in 2 seconds flat.
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The problem is Gen progression V regression in the 4V1 situation
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Ruin doesn't suck, it just requires active gameplay to get consistent results out of, and keeping survivors off generators can be pretty hard for a lot of killers. That's why I say it's for the best to run it with other hex perks - where you're getting value no matter what - or Surveillance - where you're getting very up-to-date info on when survivors touch generators again.
Eruption does have that issue, yes. It's why I don't consider it very strong where otherwise it would be, on the right killers. I will say, while I do see the warning spikes pop up while using Eruption, I've never actually seen a gen get blocked outright. If you don't wanna risk it, fair enough, I'm just pointing out it has its own use case.
As for gen blockers only being the best of the best…
There are, by my count after consulting the wiki, six good blocking perks. Corrupt Intervention, Dead Man's Switch, Deadlock/No Holds Barred, Grim Embrace, Merciless Storm, and Thrilling Tremors.
Admittedly, Thrilling Tremors is sorta more of an info perk but it does block gens and that is useful for slowing gen repair a little, so it counts. It's also just still outright good overall.
We can add Pain Res for seven, and for the sake of meeting you halfway, we won't include any other direct regression perks.
However, we will add Gift of Pain/Weeping Wounds, Pentimento, and Wretched Fate for ten, because those perks are genuinely good slowdown as well.
If the best of the best is a total of ten perks, and we have less useful but still viable perks like Jolt/Surge, Ruin, sorta Pop, and sorta Eruption as backups… is that really a problem? That's quite a reasonable variety of tools, especially considering there's no real reason to run more than one or maybe two depending on what kind of build you're going for.
Add in that each of those nine perks has a whole suite of supporting perks that work really well for them, with only a little overlap for similar perks, and variety is really good overall.
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Okay but you can get like a 17 second heal with a medkit with botany and desperate measures now potentially faster if you bring heal speed add ons. So we're actually not as far as old CoH as you suggest.
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Old CoH was ten/twelve second heals on average, with eight second heals being very doable iirc. It was considerably faster than someone else healing you, and seventeen seconds is one second slower than someone else healing you.
You also needed far, far less investment to get those heals with old CoH. It was a regular medkit and a lit boon for ten/twelve second heals (one of the two, I forget how the numbers broke down to the exact second) and a green medkit + lit boon for eight second heals. Add in the right addons for the medkit, no extra perk investment, and it was even nuttier.
This was also back when medkits allowed you to get multiple heals via addons, moreso than they do now, which made those ultra fast heals happen more frequently than they can now.
Don't get me wrong, you can get pretty speedy self-heals right now… but it's both slower and with more investment than it was before.
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yeah I watched that, and while I don’t always agree with Scott, I basically agreed with him on every point on this video, and think incredibly similarly. Not only that but I ran the perk, and had a friend that was running the perk, at separate times. We both were like this is good, I hope it doesn’t get nerfed, but laughed yeah this is going to get nerfed.
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Ya'll just find the next thing to complain about. Suddenly healing is a problem when not too long ago there was a massive outcry on syringes and orela haste perk but those are not talked about anymore. Map offerings got nuked, survivor always spawn together so less gen efficiency but gens are going faster than ever? Mmm
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Ruin sucks because the amount it regresses is inconsequential. It's the difference of saving 2.5 seconds of needing to kick a gen. But the regression itself, is abysmal.
Merciless storm isn't good. Thrilling tremors is nothing but an info perk. Wretched fate slows down a singular person. And pentimento has also been nerfed.
No, I don't think it's right that with the amount of regression perks there are, that somehow only 1 is actually good. That is not okay.
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Well if you would read the post… gens are going faster, because healing is going faster. Healing wasn't being complained about being healing didn't just get fresh buffs. But they did now.
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This happens every time healing comes up. If survivors are spending time healing it's terrible because of the health state.
If survivors aren't healing, then it's terrible because they're just spending time on gens.
Solutions to this problem have all been rejected also. CoH was a side objective that took survivors off gens to have to go heal (this was unacceptable, circle was nerfed, and people went back to playing injured).
The devs also tested making healing suck base kit with 24 second heals in one ptb and then decided not to when nearly everyone said it would kill the game.
Survivors could all start the match in the dying state and people would complain about the "unbreakable meta".
And, as always, clamor for gens to take 5 minutes each.
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^This is why I bring resurgence. Because they want to get the free hit while someone is stuck in animation. It’s honestly some of the most mind numbing gameplay because a lot of people will do this the entire match and slow downs going off left and right, so you’re either giving a hit or stuck on generators while a killer doesn’t leave a small area of the map the entire game until they have to. So I run resurgence so hopefully we have some time to get away from the hook. I don’t feel bad about it, thank the entity for resurgence.2 -
None of the perks I mentioned suck and I'm happy to back that up with some arguments, but the real thing I want to ask is: Why does regression get this pedestal?
I don't get it, sincerely. Even if only one regression perk is any good… why does that outweigh the multiple other slowdown perks that are good? Why does it have to be regression specifically having multiple options, and not other kinds of slowdown? The list I gave you only contains one regression perk and it still broke double digits of good strong tools. Why is it a problem that only one of them is regression?
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The buffs are botany for medkits and felix perk. Resurgence and we'll make it insta healed you before this patch so nothing's changed when it comes to that.
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I haven't been seeing a bunch of healing perks in my games. Obviously that doesn't mean it's not happening at all but it just doesn't seem to be the issue it's being made out to be. If healing is an issue in your matches I suggest bringing Sloppy Butcher. At a minimum it will slow those heals down a bit and with some luck it can decimate Resurgence.
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Because regression actually sets BACK the progress of the survivor objective. Blocking doesn't set them back, it just means they'll go to a different gen. There's also the problem that most of the blockers don't actually do that. deadlock is really the only one. Grim embrace is inconsequential up until the 4th hook. DMS requires pain res.
Wretched fate only slows down one person and even then it's slowing them down compared to forcing them back. it's a large difference imo.
yes so it's a healing buff…??? A self healing buff at that. And then you have the buffs to desperate measures on top of that.
I've started to see a WHOLE lot of botany. regardless the shift isn't going to happen immediately, it'll take time for people to realize just how busted it is. Especially resurgence. immediate 70% progress off of hook is ridiculous, it makes healing off of hook instead of taking the usual time, it's like 2-3 seconds. It shaves off SO much time.
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I mean, what's the difference?
They both have the same goal: Increase the amount of time until the generator's finished. Blocking and removing charges have the same effect there, I don't see why removing charges should inherently be better than blocking.
Historically the regression perks were better, but that's just how the perks were balanced. Now the blocking perks are, arguably, better- at least overall, Pain Res is still the best slowdown tool. Either way, same result, the generator takes longer to finish.
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From the perspective of someone who only plays survivor in solo queue and doesn’t have a streamers full time job worth of high tier med-kits and med-kit add-ons to waste in every match, healing feels fine. It’s fast enough to feel worth bothering to do vs. just hopping back on a gen, wounded. I only run botany knowledge with desperate measures personally.
In my killer matches I haven’t personally noticed survivors healing abnormally fast. Sometimes gens seem to go a bit fast but slugging a survivor or two generally breaks that up.
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The difference is that only one of the block perks actually means something. DMS requires pain res to be useful. Grim embrace isn't useful until you 4 hook. Deadlock is the only one consistently providing something and doesn't require the already best regression perk in the game to provide it's use.
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Hasn't Resurgence been 70% for quite some time though? I would think if it was having the effect you believe it does we'd have seen it before now.
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But isn't your position also that there's only one good regression perk?
It still feels like you're putting a lot of weight on regression as a subclass over blocking, or repair speed penalty. If there's only one good one for each, aren't they equal and shouldn't we be talking about all slowdown?
For the record, while I don't think any of the perks I namedropped are bad, I have to push back against saying Grim's only good at the fourth stack. Grim Embrace for the first three activations enforces nobody working on generators while you get into your next chase, which is very impactful if you're actually capitalising on it.
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Let's be real. It's 10 seconds. It's barely anything.
I don't talk about all slowdown, because the post isn't about all slowdown… it's about regression, because regression is the subclass of slowdown that I've seen actively get butchered over the years. Blocking and repair penalty were never the top dog and never really that relevant up until the more recent years of DBD, so I have no reason to speak on them.
Same thing happened with CoB. It was 200% the whole time and didn't start seeing use until later.
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Ten seconds is enough time to be pretty close to getting into your next chase on a lot of killers. On the slower killers, it also guarantees much less gen repair while you're getting into your next chase.
Then, obviously, you're in your next chase, so gen repair slows down by default anyway. It's quite useful.
I see where you're coming from regarding regression, then, that makes sense. I still think it's important to remember that other slowdown exists and is quite good right now, so you don't fall into the trap of thinking all slowdown is worthless, but I see what I was missing about your position now.
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It saw use when the entire meta shifted to gen kicking. A Resurgence heal (assuming someone else is healing you) takes 4.8 seconds. With Botany it goes to 3.2 seconds. 1.6 seconds isn't enough time to shift the entire meta. I'm not saying these aren't good perks. I'm just not seeing the massive shift you are. Maybe I'm wrong and this will be a problem. Either way I feel it's too early to say for sure.
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Killers just need to learn how to apply pressure better. If they weren't just staring at the person on hook all game, they'd do better
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Perks like Resurgence have been buffed the way they are for a long time. Botany gets a small quality of life buff, and people go insane acting like this is the reason they can't win their matches now.
The game needs to give killers better BASELINE gen regression and slowdown so they don't feel forced into playing 4 gen regression perks every game. Survivors got much needed baseline changes to camping and tunneling and they've worked out fine. The only thing killers got for gens was a small buff to their kick regression and no more 1-tap to stop regression.
They need to do more for this that isn't just "make gens take 120 seconds to repair" because that would be hella boring and solve nothing.
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Resurgence buff happening a while ago doesn't change that people are starting to now catch on to it. I'm seeing multiple resurgences EVERY game. Leverage doesn't even do anything against it, it's completely unnoticeable. It's like with CoB. When it released, no one gave a damn about it even though it was 200% for the longest time. And then it caught on, and then it got nerfed.
I'm not saying I'm losing every match on planet earth. I'm not saying all hell has broken loose. I'm simply saying, they are starting to create a heal meta that can very quickly get out of hand. Because people stopped using botany since it would directly effect their own medkits. Since that is gone, people are just going to use it for the free value 50% increase in healing.
I'm sorry, but I am of the belief that heals off of hooks shouldn't only take 2-3 seconds. That is busted to me imo.
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