http://dbd.game/killswitch
sprint burst, lithe, finesse, there is no game anymore (rant rant rant rant)
they are all stains on the game and this meta is slowly becoming my least favorite one yet
sprint burst does literally nothing but artificially increase chase time, it's a crutch for bad survivors that let them hold W away from any potential interaction they might have with the killer
zero skill perk, zero fun for anyone, you aren't playing dbd if you're literally never interacting with the killer at all, please just take a chase for once. there is no way you actively WANT to hold your mouse button down on 5 generators the entire game while never having to deal with the primary antagonistic force that makes your game, an actual game
im not even saying sprint burst is op, too good, needs a nerf, whatever, i just think its a fundamentally ridiculous perk that hurts the gameplay experience for everyone involved, ESPECIALLY if you're playing a non-ranged killer that can't keep up, you basically have to let that survivor go every time without fail because in high mmr lobbies the extra distance you have to spend chasing a sprint burst abuser literally isn't worth it when you could be pressuring gens
to me without fail sprint burst exists in a vacuum, its only here to say "no, just kidding, i dont actually want to play dead by daylight." i hate sprint perk from every conceivable angle
as for lithe and finesse i just dont see the point in having perks in the game that make vaults even freer for survivors than they already are, i dont think we need perks that just make vaults better, they're already a consistent win for survivor when it comes to looping
i honestly just think vaults should just be vaults. i really dislike the idea of lithe and finesse both making vaults even more free when they're already the best thing a survivor can do in a chase with killer- a competent survivor shouldn't get punished for vaulting properly. you either hit the vault window and don't get hit, or you fail, skill issue
its just monumentally frustrating playing against any 3 of these perks, there's no thinking involved. something like balanced landing is so situational it's hard to get mad at- you led me to a drop, you dropped, you got away in a situation that otherwise would've led to me probably getting a hit with a lunge as soon as we were both down.
getting value out of balanced landing at least requires some level of practice, and then it's something the killer can notice and plan around in the future
getting value out of dead hard is literally a skill check for both the survivor and killer. can the killer predict or guess out the dead hard? can the survivor hit the small window to get the endurance? it's a mindgame, it's great
but there's nothing like that with SB, lithe, or finesse, there's no mindgame, and there's nothing to really 'keep in mind' either, you can't play around these perks,
you just have to know for the rest of the game that the survivor that has that perk is going to get such free distance on you every single time you see them, either by 99ing sprint burst/just running away from the gen they were at with it, or by turning an already very advantageous position for the survivor into an even worse lose scenario for the killer
i get the idea of endurance perks, they're tied to an endurance meter for a reason, giving a survivor any kind of haste is just absurdly powerful even in small amounts (remember the original made for this? lol)
so why let survivors get such a drastic amount of free distance for perks that require literally no skill or input beyond just playing survivor? like if you're getting value from lithe or using finesse as a crutch since you have bad vault timing, you're just getting free value out of a situation that was already good for you
it's not using a perk to mitigate an otherwise bad scenario (like balanced landing since survivors don't win the drop battle if the killer lunges)
and it's not a skill check that requires some kind of thinking or input from the survivor (like dead hard)
all sprint burst does is give a crazy amount of free distance
all lithe does is make a good situation even better
all finesse does is act like a crutch and make loops even more abusable than they should be
they all feel like total doodoo to play around, and are all in my opinion anti-interactive
not in the sense that a survivor is being stealthy and hiding from the killer and staying out of their line of sight, keeping it under the radar, oooh yeah look at my tailored build meant to keep quiet and in the shadows, that's my tactic, i'm the stealth guy
but non-interactive in the sense that you can slap these perks into literally any survivor build and you will always ######### get immense value from them just by playing survivor like you're supposed to
i get that there are already perks like these but you have to keep the context in mind
a conditional perk giving you free repair speed by doing something like repairing while injured or only doing gens close to the one you just did is simply not the same as how much SB or lithe can beef the only part of the game where the different sides of the game are actively supposed to be playing around and interacting with eachother, both of which you can activate with no prior conditions that need to be fulfilled beforehand
and yes, they're exhaustion perks, but it doesn't matter, that doesn't count as the condition; you get the value before the perk is placed on cooldown, it is not nearly the same as dead hard's precise timing for instance, so i do not see the fact that they're exhaustion perks as enough of a reason to call these perks balanced OR fun and healthy for the game
by the time you've put 20 football fields between you and the killer those 40 seconds will be up by the time the killer finds you again (again, if you're a competent survivor)
long post, but long thought, wrought by the frustration of seeing multiple survivors with these free artificial chase extending perks in many games in a row
lithe is the 2nd most picked perk in the game
sprint burst is the 5th most picked perk in the game
there is a 21.95% chance that i'm going to have to deal with lithe every single ######### time i see a survivor
there is a 14.54% chance that every single time i see a survivor they're immediately going to racecar zoom away from me to an entirely different part of the map
there is a 12.05% chance that every time i get into a chase with a new survivor that isn't all that good at looping they're going to get crutched to safety anyways by finesse
i don't care about the high pick rates on
windows (because it's an absolute meme perk),
resilience (you have to be injured to get the speed buffs that's fair),
deja vu (i'd genuinely rather get gen rushed and find a new game than spend 20 hours chasing sprint bursts),
dead hard (skill check, im never mad when i get dead hard'd by a competent survivor, they got my ass it's fair)
or adrenaline (whatever, run this situational ass one time use perk if you want)
but sprint burst, lithe, and finesse, existing in the way they do, and being present in so many of my ######### games, is absolutely destroying any motivation i have to play killer. my previous least favorite meta to play in was circle of healing and i had such a vitriolic hate for that perk on release and it's extremely questionable design choices but this whole era of playing killer is slowly starting to feel worse and worse as it goes on and i genuinely do not know how much longer i can sit through this
i know i'm not the only person complaining about this, but just for frame of reference, i'm not ######### playing kaneki or springtrap like most of the killer audience right now and i'm sure those two killers deal with these perks easier so i feel like if anything the grievances with these 3 perks aren't being aired enough because the killer population is revolving around the more recent killers that don't struggle as much against them
but there is a massive section of the killer cast that seems to just get totally ######### by these
there is no counterplay, it is literally free value for nothing in the most vital and interactive part of the dbd game experience, and i hate it
please end this ######### 'free distance' meta you can have old decisive strike back you can start dead harding for distance again i don't care anymore man im just so tired of playing the game in it's current state
its like there aren't survivors that actually want to play the game anymore, there's no looping, there's no chasing, there's no interacting with the survivors or the survivors interacting with the killer, there's literally just running away at lightspeed to infinity and beyond
and if you don't have looping, chasing, mindgames, or anything, then you don't have a ######### videogame because it's the only time the sides get to actually interact with eachother
can we please just recognize how unreal it is that with how many people are playing this ######### game to the point where the fnaf and subsequent anniversary events literally broke active player records that somehow still nearly 22% of every single ######### survivor playing this game right now are all running lithe
holy ######### dude
end rant
and addendum, yes, killer side have annoying perks too, i genuinely couldn't care less if pain res, pop, surge, all get gutted at the same time as sprint burst, lithe and finesse get nerfed, i'd be more than willing to make that trade
Comments
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I don't know how many games in a row i've had to deal with sprint burst. Just last game 3/4 survivors had it. The. Entire. Game. was just survivors slow walking in front of me and then immediately zooming into the next solar system. It's such an awful way to play DBD. Ended with a 2/4 draw and I still hated every second of it; just the most unfun ######### in my entire DBD career.
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TL;DR but I will say, that yday I played bubba against 4 finesse - I was so unlucky. On mothers dwelling aswell, hard map.
But fortunetely I won!
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Not every survivor perk should require a ridiculous amount of set up for one niche use. Survivors already have perks that require some combination of chest opening, totem cleansing, and it being a day with an even number of vowels in order to get any value out of them. These are likely picked because they’re useful and don’t require a stupid amount of conditionally available setup, not because they’re OP.
I never run sprint burst - it’s too uncontrollable for my tastes. You either have to walk everywhere until you need it or just let it fire off whenever it’s up and potentially get less value from it, or have it missing when you actually could use it.
I almost always run lithe, and if you want it you can pry it from my cold, dead hands. It might help a survivor chain loops, escape dead zones, or just put a little distance but they aren’t uncatchable.
If someone’s running lithe and finesse then they’ve burnt 2 perk slots on 1 effect so yeah, it should be a good one. I don’t consistently run finesse but do occasionally mainly because I like the hop animation and feeling a smidge more zippy (usually I prefer kindred in that slot I’m only ever on solo queue). Again, this has not made me uncatchable by any means.
There are killers that can zoom around maps with dashes, tentacle leaps, or literal teleports in addition to just plain being faster than a survivor at base speeds. Lithe never hurt anybody.
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Sprint burst usage has shot up massively due to springtrap it feels like. Perks like these is why i only really play dash/teleport killers now.
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Your entire post is rendered moot by your opinion that there's somehow something wrong with a killer being slightly faster than survivors at 'base speeds'. You are by design not 'supposed' to indefinitely loop a killer with unplayable, uncounterable gameplay; which is why the killer gets Bloodlust, and why vaults get blocked after 3 jumps.
Finesse is the lesser devil out of the 3 but my criticisms stand; and yes, with such a large amount of the survivor playerbase abusing lithe (2nd most picked perk in the game) i'm sure BHVR is inevitably going to pry it out of your hands eventually.
I don't think that Lithe should have some kind of minute requirement or further behavior tacked onto it, I simply don't think there should be a survivor perk that turns an already favorable situation into one that's just a complete stopsign for the killer.
No lithe, survivor vaults, makes distance, killer has to go around or take slower vault, survivor gets that chance to either keep running the loop, or make it to the next spot.
With lithe, survivor vaults, gets distance, gets more free distance, killer can't catch up.
What's wrong with lithe isn't just that it requires no thinking or conditions, it's also that it's attached to a situation that should already be very favorable for a competent survivor, and ruins interactivity because at that point the chase should more or less just be over.
The time sink that goes into chasing someone running sprint burst or lithe typically just isn't worth it, especially on the more obnoxious vault locations that are already insanely good for the survivor. Now, when these picks are picked so often that you're seeing multiple of them in a single game, every single chase between the survivor and killer gets an arbitrary amount of time added on because of the crazy free distance these perks give you.
It's just lazy, both in perk design, and use by survivor.
And I noted it in my initial post but perhaps it was too long to parse that specific element of conversation, but i'm fine with perks that just make you better at stuff. I don't care about Deja Vu letting you slam gens and rush down a killer having the exit gates open before they've even used their power.
But when it comes to anything survivor sided that impacts a chase, I think you have to be very careful when balancing perks that impact it- and at very least, focus on perks that are either conditional and lessen an otherwise unsafe move (like Balanced Landing making the fall favorable for the survivor), or require some level of tactics or skill input to use effectively (like Dead Hard.) Those are my 2 examples for perks that impact the survivor side of chase that I think are more or less fine, but there are more; if any other perks were so free and useful as Sprint Burst and Lithe, then they respectively wouldn't be the 2nd and 4th most ran perks in the game.
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I don't know, I was seeing it plenty before Springtrap was added to the game. There's no killer that it isn't useful against; (which is fine), but it's so oddly skewed to either make you better against killers that can pop up on you at a gen (like Springtrap) or make you practically untouchable to killers that can't, which is a majority of the cast. That's part of why it feels like an unhealthy perk.
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- Exhaustion perks have always been considered among the strongest in the game, they are perks that allow you to extend your chase, a fundamental part of the Survivor gameplay. They are the equivalent of "Bamboozle", "alien instinct", "machine learning", etc etc etc ... these perks allow the killer to shorten his chase. DBD is like playing chess, move and countermove, this is the most fun part of the game (for me). If the exhaustion perks bother you a lot (absolutely legitimate), use "mindbreaker" , "languid touch" or "blood echo"….from the killer's point of view they don't seem to do anything, in reality they completely "kill" all the exhaustion perks🤣
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But my issue isn't with exhaustion perks as a whole and I already list some exhaustion perks I think are well designed for the sake of comparison. Something being an exhaustion perk doesn't give it a free pass to be broken, or unhealthy. I don't think you read my post.
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the mischevious perk known as Mindbreaker:
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Does not have anything to do with my post. Sprint Burst can be 99'd and used away from gens, and in my game, that's how it goes down like 70% of the time. It also has nothing to do with Lithe.
Respectfully, Mindbreaker existing doesn't really impact my post at all, and on top of that; a perk in the game that's otherwise unhealthy or too powerful can't be considered okay just because another perk could possibly counter it. I don't think that's good game design mantra.
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- You didn't read my post either, i literally gave you the countermove for the perks that bother you (except finesse)
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You just did the same thing twice, you still didn't read my post. Why are you talking about a 'countermove' when in the post you're replying to I explicitly tell you that I don't think a perk is healthy just because another perk can counter it?
Why do I have to write the same post twice to make you understand what i'm saying?
Let me break it down for you to make it easier to digest.
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Thesis:
The perk Mindbreaker existing does not retroactively justify other perks being unhealthy just because you could possibly make those perks easier to deal with if you happen to bring Mindbreaker.
Additionally, Mindbreaker, which applies Exhaustion while someone is working on a generator, doesn't have anything to do with how I see Sprint Burst being commonly used; which is away from generators.
You can 99% sprint burst and use it mid-chase. You can slowly walk towards killer, baiting them into a chase, just to run to the other side of the map with your sudden Sprint Burst.
If you hear the terror radius, you can stop doing the generator, wait for the exhaustion to tick down, and have Sprint Burst ready by the time the killer arrives.
And on top of all that, Mindbreaker has next to no interaction with Lithe at all, so I don't know why you're pretending the 'exhuastion on generators' perk is somehow a 'countermove' to getting free distance after vaulting.
And again, just to say it for the 3rd time so it's clear,
One perk potentially lessening the impact of an otherwise unhealthy perk, does not justify the unhealthy perk continuing to be overpowered.
That is not how good game design works and should not be a way to justify unhealthy gameplay mechanics.
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i don't mind lithe, tho sprint burst and finess has become one of the perks that make me go like, yea cool…what a fun interaction
especially with finess still being bugged giving way more value to the point that vaults (especially with pallets) are broken now, u sometimes wiff even if it was suppose to hit
sprint burst is really painful on indoor maps, otherwise its somewhat fine, no i don't wanna run the same perk over and over to counter it, killers thrive on creating new builds and build crafting not running the same thing over and over and being sore winners like their perks didn't carry them the whole game
this is why i love going against survivors who don't run the "meta" perks, they are confident, good, hell even i start enjoying the chase and they usually get hatch from me or i just let them out because THEY EARNED IT
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Talking about how they 'earned it' I would like to say I am literally never mad if a survivor gets value out of Dead Hard.
If I get hit with a Head On i'm like oh wow, they got me, they got value out of that, they tricked me, well played.
On the extremely rare occasion someone stuns me with Power Struggle I just sit there amazed.
I know Head On and Power Struggle aren't super related to the conversation, but still; perks that encourage interactivity are fun, and better for the game. If a survivor dunks on me with Dead Hard i'm like damn, they got me! When a survivor suddenly just gets to win the chase and disappear from my field of view because they hit a regular ass vault, something that's already supposed to be good for them, it makes me want to abandon the match.
At the end of the day DBD is a game. It's supposed to have gameplay. Sprint Burst and Lithe isn't gameplay and Finesse only exists to let bad survivors run loops they shouldn't be, it's a bandaid crutch perk that ######### up the chase because it gives the survivor a big window window to excuse awful vault timing.
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the only thing i dislike about head on is the fact its uncounterable and has the hitbox of a truck
power struggle is one of the only perks where i get hit by it and be like, THE FUNNY PERK, so i literally don't even get annoyed im just you know, go for it lol
dead hard on the other hand….if the survivor uses it perfectly, i will compliment them, those who use it near pallets tho…yea that is just boring, and just gives me ptsd from the old dead hard…
but yea perks that just give u random speed boost to cross half of the map are so boring to play against, especially with sprint burst players, like just i know u are holding it, otherwise u wouldn't be letting me get that close while u are walking, at least try to make it less obvious….
and don't even get me started on balanced landind heads, actual crutch perk not even joking, everyone i played against so far who uses this perk goes instantly down if there is no high area
i always love how people go like, oh camping and slugging and tunneling stops your learning, but using a crutch perk is fine?
i mean at least with those, they ain't a perk they are things u need to do and depending on the killer sometimes they don't work, not just slap a perk and call it SKILLS.
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I personally have no problem with Head On and Balanced Landing.
For Head On, it's a fairly niche and conditional perk; and more importantly, it's something you can actually play around. When a survivor uses Lithe or Sprint Burst, I just have to deal with the crazy free distance they get no matter what.
But if I know a survivor has Head On, I can try and bait it out, or swing myself into the locker and open it before they can react fast enough to actually fast exit and trigger the perk. It's at least something it feels like you can actually play around. I typically respect Head On stuns.
And Balanced Landing isn't a crutch perk to me; Finesse is a crutch perk because it lets you take bad timing vaults you shouldn't have gotten away with. Balanced Landing is something you have to actually plan to use as Survivor, and it turns an unfavorable situation (falling down a height with the killer who typically gets a free hit with lunge) into a favorable one (you might actually get away.)
Think about it from the survivor POV- they have to actually think. They have to sit there and think about how they're going to make plays with these perks, because actually planning around their perks is the only way they can get value out of them.
Meanwhile, Sprint Burst and Lithe are literally free; Sprint Burst 99s are obnoxious and you will always get that free distance no matter what. You are not outplaying the killer by literally just running away from them at lightspeeds.
And you can make an argument that you have to 'plan' a vault to get value out of Lithe, but the greater issue is that the Survivor is getting rewarded for free extra distance on something that should already be very good for them; it's doubling down on an already advantageous situation and is basically just a chase ender.
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Addendum; would you rather play against 4 survivors that bring Sprint Burst/Lithe and have to deal with every single chase being arbitrarily wayyy longer for zero planning or conscious thought and effort?
Or would you rather play against a team of survivors using Dead Hard, where every chase is actually a mindgame on top of a mindgame, where the existence of Dead Hard forces the survivor and killer to interact with eachother?
Apply this to any other perk in the Survivor library. Lithe and Sprint Burst are, in my opinion, the absolute worst perks to play against right now by far.
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Why, I’d love to see where I said there’s SOMETHING WRONG with a killer being slightly faster than survivors at ‘base speeds’. What I said was that they ARE faster. That is all, end of statement. Perhaps you should re-read.
There are not vaultable surfaces falling from the sky on every map. A survivor is not so close to a vaultable surface that you could not close the gap before they get to one in every chase. If a survivor with lithe does fast vault a vaultable surface while in chase with you they are not so far away that you can now NOT catch them. I play killer too when queue times aren’t miserable and can say that I may CHOOSE to break chase when I feel applying pressure elsewhere would be a better choice time-wise, I don’t HAVE TO.
If 3 seconds of haste means you are unable to catch a survivor, how did you get to them across the map in the first place? That’s way farther than those 3 seconds got that lithe using survivor, and now their perk is unusable for 40 seconds.
You make an assumption on why they’re the 2nd and 4th most ran perks in the game when you.
So long as you’re looking at statistics, tell me - since killers have pretty good kill stats in the most recently reported numbers, how exactly do you think wrecking survivors primary chase perks is going to affect that?
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Thank you for your response. I'm going to try and break down my own response into sections since it seems like we're both bringing up a few different talking points and it'll help keep things understandable and concise.
>I’d love to see where I said there’s SOMETHING WRONG with a killer being slightly faster than survivors at ‘base speeds’. What I said was that they ARE faster. That is all, end of statement.I'm willing to concede this if you're willing to acknowledge that bringing it up in the first place meant something. We're having an active discussion; that's not something you mention unless you wanted it to mean something. We aren't saying things just to say them. This is an ongoing debate. You specifically say,
"There are killers that can zoom around maps with dashes, tentacle leaps, or literal teleports in addition to just plain being faster than a survivor at base speeds. Lithe never hurt anybody."
To me, when I hear you say "in addition to just plain being faster than a survivor at base speeds" that sounds to me like you're noting it as some kind of problem. But if you aren't, and you don't think anything is wrong with that, then that's fine; but I don't think killers that have some sort of teleport or mobility power should be not as quick as killers are supposed to be with their base movement speed.
Unless you're the Nurse, if anything Nurse should move even slower.
>There are not vaultable surfaces falling from the sky on every map. A survivor is not so close to a vaultable surface that you could not close the gap before they get to one in every chase.Yes, vaults from a height are more powerful than ones on the ground, but grounded vaults are still very powerful. Every map has a killer shack, for instance; but on top of that, I would wager most of the vaults across every map in the game are survivor sided regardless, because that's the point of vaults. Unless it's one of those really weird small ones, like on the edges of Dead Dog Saloon that just super suck. But still.
I'm not having any of this conversation with the idea of height vaults in mind, that to me is just a different category. Everything that i'm talking about to me in my mind is within the context of a 'normal' grounded vault, one that a killer would have to either take a walk around, or take the slow vault to get past it.
Additionally, I don't really know what you mean by "not so close to a vaultable surface that you could not close the gap before they get to one in every chase." As a survivor, you typically aren't trying to take a vault knowing the killer is going to get a hit; you should vault when you know the killer is too far away to swing at you mid-vault, and you take that vault so you can start looping the killer. Some gyms you can play mindgames, some gyms are better than others and are next to impossible for the killer unless you're playing a killer that specifically has anti-loop built into their kit.
So generally i'm just not really sure what your saying. The normal chase flowchat for survivors is make distance, find a gym to play around, loop the killer as much as possible by abusing pallets and vaults, and move to the next gym if you've exhausted your resources (like you've thrown the pallet already or you've used the same vault so many times it's blocked.)
The chase typically goes until the killer gets you, gives up, or loses track of you. I don't like Lithe because it turns the normal chase structure into the survivor just getting away for free and typically ending the chase then and there. It rewards a survivor for doing something that's already advantageous to them in a chase, and typically stops the interaction completely instead of following the 'normal' chase flowchart that dictates a majority of the interactivity the sides have with eachother.
>If a survivor with lithe does fast vault a vaultable surface while in chase with you they are not so far away that you can now NOT catch them.My response to this is twofold.
Firstly, yes, there are some very strong or stragetic vault points that become basically unwinnable by abusing Lithe's speedboost; like the vault from height spots we already talked about. A killer can theoretically hit one of these and still chase the survior; i've caught up with plenty of survivors from that one vault drop in The Game, for instance. Not impossible. But with Lithe, spots like that become insanely valuable for survivors.
Secondly, yes, even if you can theoretically keep chasing the survivor, just like Sprint Burst, the insane free amount of distance they get on you typically just isn't worth it to chase because it's such a massive timesink. At some point it becomes more strategically viable to drop chase, either to go after another survivor that isn't as good in chase or doesn't have those perks, or to go pressure gens elsewhere and try to stagnate the game.
I typically play this way often, ignoring the survivors that I know have really tough perks or are really good in chase/want to be chased or are constantly trying to make me chase them. It makes much more sense for me to go after their teammates. If I know you have Sprint Burst and your going to burst away from me at 99 mph then i'm not really keen on investing all that time it takes just to catch up with you and actually start the ######### chase properly. That's what I mean by free arbitrary distance.
Lithe is the same way. If you speed off after doing a vault, it's doubling down on something that's already bad for me, and makes it less worth it to keep the chase going because we're adding a lot of time on an already rapidly draining clock for next to no effort by the survivor.
So, ultimately, there are some situations where Lithe can genuinely just end a chase verbatim; and a lot of times, the time it takes to catch up to these survivors really just isn't worth it, and it feels worse that it's 'unearned' time the survivors get. But if the entire team are running these perks (i'm getting 2-3 sprint bursts/lithes a game) then the killer's time is constantly getting stretched out with less and less actual chase structure or interactivity with the survivors at all, and then it just gets so insanely obnoxious to play against.
See, you even seem to agree with me with your next statement here;
>I may CHOOSE to break chase when I feel applying pressure elsewhere would be a better choice time-wise, I don’t HAVE TO.That's kind of the crux of the conversation. You either break chase or dedicate even more time to chasing someone who got a large amount of free distance on you for very little effort.
Now, if the entire enemy team is doing that, then there's no point in breaking chase since every survivor is going to do the same ######### thing to you, and then every chase you have in that match is arbitrarily extended. It just gets ridiculous; and let's face it, with these pickrates, that is going to happen way more often than you only encountering a single survivor running one of these perks.
Let's face it- they have high pickrates for a reason. If they were reasonably balanced, they wouldn't be present in every single ######### game. (I use swears for emphasis; not to imply hostility.)
>You make an assumption on why they’re the 2nd and 4th most ran perks in the gameLet's pump the brakes here a little bit. Metas are typically defined by perks that are overtly effective. Balance changes happen around the meta because the meta highlights things that are too powerful if not straight up broken. The only thing that doesn't fit here is Windows because Windows is the default suggestion noob perk and a lot of people are running it that really don't need to be.
It's worth saying that in some way, every other most picked perk (on BOTH sides) are probably just really good perks. I'm not 'making an assumption' by saying these perks are picked extremely often because they're very good, i'm just running off the basic definition and understanding of what a meta in a videogame is.
Like, every single meta in DBD's history has been centered around perks or perk combos that are just very good. That's why people use them. That's why they become meta.
Even if you initially disagree with some of my points and don't think these perks are inherently unhealthy for the game it stands to reason that you could at least recognize that they're simply good perks you will basically always get value from.
>since killers have pretty good kill stats in the most recently reported numbers, how exactly do you think wrecking survivors primary chase perks is going to affect that?I don't think this is really doing what you want this to do for your argument. Killers are pretty much always going to have good or acceptable kill rates because the game is insanely non-noob-friendly with barely functioning MMR and despite all these twitch streamers and tiktok-clip-farming bully squads a large majority of the survivor player population just suck at the game.
Like, that's not a bad thing to say, it's okay to recognize that, and i'm fairly certain that's already an understood metric whe n it comes to trying to analyze DBD numbers. I think you're just failing to recognize that you need to see the context behind statistics to make the statistics mean anything.
Here's one for you- The Nurse has the 5th lowest killrate in the game. Is she still the best killer? In this instance; it's the killer players that suck. In terms of killer kill-rates, it's a majority of the survivors that suck.
If you actually need Sprint Burst and Lithe to stand a chance in a chase, look at what that actually means- you have no idea how a chase works, or what you're supposed to do in one.
If you are literally just running away, you have not yet reached a point of familiarity with playing Survivor where you can effectively loop the killer in a chase. Which is fine- I can't loop for ######### either, i'm awful at Survivor. But using these perks to offset your skill imbalance doesn't retroactively justify the perks existence. To be as direct as possible; I don't give a ######### what removing these perks do to any single statistic. Survivors should learn how to function in a chase instead of relying on blatantly unhealthy non-interactivity focused perks to get ahead.
Also, just as a final addendum,
>and now their perk is unusable for 40 seconds.Does not matter. The exhaustion perk working on an exhaustion cooldown does not matter when you are getting the value of that perk up-front. You get the value and then the perk goes on cooldown. I'm not writing all this out like i'm thinking survivors are getting back to back lithe's off in a single chase. In fact, many perks on both sides have cooldowns. Mentioning that the perks are exhaustion perks does not mean anything to me in this conversation.
TL:DR no you don't get a TLDR actually read my post if you want to engage in the conversation.
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I'm willing to concede this if you're willing to acknowledge that bringing it up in the first place meant something. We're having an active discussion; that's not something you mention unless you wanted it to mean something.
Yes, the meaning I intended being that the killer has the inherent speed advantage for the majority of the match. Situationally removing that advantage for 3 seconds every 40 seconds at absolute maximum, assuming completely ideal conditions for a given survivor does not negate that advantage in my opinion.
Assuming a 10 minute match and assuming a survivor is chased into a vault precisely when their cooldown is up every single time their cooldown is up, at max there will be 13 3 second windows of 50% haste for a given survivor. 6.5% of the match all together will be spent zipping around for that survivor, split between 13 instances. This is assuming everything goes as perfectly for the survivor as it could possibly go - something very improbable.
To me, when I hear you say "in addition to just plain being faster than a survivor at base speeds" that sounds to me like you're noting it as some kind of problem. But if you aren't, and you don't think anything is wrong with that, then that's fine; but I don't think killers that have some sort of teleport or mobility power should be not as quick as killers are supposed to be with their base movement speed.
My point is if there are going to be killers in the game that can close long distances extremely quickly, there needs to be perks that can give survivors a chance against those high mobility killers. I'm not commenting on their speed one way or the other - I'm just saying that IF they're going to be able to speed around the map then a survivor that isn't already at a jungle gym or building is going to need a way to get there without it just being a free down every time a survivor needs to wander over to a gen that isn't in a loopable structure.
Now, if the entire enemy team is doing that, then there's no point in breaking chase since every survivor is going to do the same ######### thing to you, and then every chase you have in that match is arbitrarily extended. It just gets ridiculous; and let's face it, with these pickrates, that is going to happen way more often than you only encountering a single survivor running one of these perks.
If the entire enemy team is running around, then they aren't doing gens. Heck, sprint burst is exploitable as a killer there - they scatter from a gen fast but have to take a long walk back and aren't going to be very fast anymore if you come right back.
Even if you initially disagree with some of my points and don't think these perks are inherently unhealthy for the game it stands to reason that you could at least recognize that they're simply good perks you will basically always get value from.
I agree Lithe is good - it's why I run it and not something else. (That and most other perks are too situational to be worth anything) I don't agree it's overpowered nor do I agree that it's unhealthy for the game. One point I would like to make here is that just because a perk is frequently chosen, doesn't inherently make it overpowered or a problem. Correlation is not causation.
If you actually need Sprint Burst and Lithe to stand a chance in a chase, look at what that actually means- you have no idea how a chase works, or what you're supposed to do in one.Conversely, if you actually need a survivor to not run any exhaustion perks to stand a chance in a chase, look at what that actually means.
To be as direct as possible; I don't give a ######### what removing these perks do to any single statistic.
How about your queue time? Do you care what removing those perks do to that? Few enough people want to play survivor as it is that there's constant blood point bribes in place, you want to make it more frustrating?
But using these perks to offset your skill imbalance doesn't retroactively justify the perks existence.
Love that phrasing. I could counter with - demanding those perks be removed to offset a killer's skill imbalance doesn't make the argument correct or good for game balance or health.
Mentioning that the perks are exhaustion perks does not mean anything to me in this conversation.
Then you are intentionally ignoring or disregarding the limitations that are present on the perks you are complaining about. Having a cooldown mechanic is very much a part of how balanced something is.
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I’m curious to hear your opinion on Smash Hit.
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I see 4x Lithe+ Finesse a lot. like, a lot. it's not OP, but playing against it is a serious chore. then again, I don't play Nurse so self inflicted problem
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I honestly don't usually mind it because getting a pallet stun is still an actual mindgame you have to play with killer and is nothing like the absolute barebones requirement of just vaulting
Survivor haste is tricky to balance but I can't think of anything other than SB/lithe that really feel like bullshit, no other survivor haste perk gives so much free value
Even being able to 99 sprint burst alone makes the perk insane
To me Smash Hit is both just a little more situational enough for me to be okay with it (like balanced landing) and also requires at least some level of skill/input from survivor (landing a pallet stun)
Eating a pallet and breaking it while the survivor gets away already feels kind of normal if they manage to break chase off a good pallet stun regardless if they have smash hit or not that's fine, pallets are a limited resource they're supposed to be used like that
In comparison Lithe doesn't permanently block that on vault spot, know what I mean?
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I personally think it's 'OP' because it gives way too much value for way little effort
But even if you don't think it's overpowered it's fair to say they're still badly designed
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>the killer has the inherent speed advantage for the majority of the match.>Situationally removing that advantage for 3 seconds every 40 seconds>does not negate that advantage in my opinion.Sorry but this just feels like bad faith arguing. The killer is ever so slightly faster than the survivors by default to ensure that the survivors can't hold W away from them eternally. But, the survivors can extend chase theoretically indefinitely by abusing loops, pallets, vaults. That is why the killer gets bloodlust, and why vaults get blocked; chases are simply not actually supposed to last forever.
I think you're just intentionally overselling the whole 'killer faster than survivor' bit when it only exists to encourage the game of tag the entire game is built around. You will get hit eventually, every chase is just about how much time you can waste for the killer.
Every second the killer isn't chasing you, your teammates are doing gens. When a perk like Dead Hard increases chase time, that value is given to the survivor by extending the chase, either letting the Survivor get away and heal in ideal conditions, or simply buying their team more time.
The Survivor getting any more time throws the vanilla gameplay out of it's set marching pace. Which is fine; the Killer has perks too and can do the same thing. But you have to be very careful when you design perks that influence this; when something like Sprint Burst or Lithe is giving so much free time, constantly, it feels lazy, both making the game more of a slog by artificially increasing that chase time without any effort on the survivors part, and becomes 4x worse when 4 survivors are doing the same thing.
The entire meta right now revolves around unearned free time with these perks being used so, so often. Even bad survivors who get caught as soon as their haste is up still got their hands held by zero effort perks and gave their team enough time to do gens. The lack of skill and lack of any actual ability to loop the killer is getting crutched by perks that give the survivor too much free time & distance with no real input required from the survivor.
Your random numbers and math don't mean anything. You are trying to over-quantify a part of the game that does not have a predefined time limit because you don't understand chases; not what they mean for the game and how they're intended to function, and not how to do them yourself.
>if there are going to be killers in the game that can close long distances extremely quickly, there needs to be perks that can give survivors a chance against those high mobility killersThe intended counterplay against killers with mobility powers is to just be better than them and chase properly. Dodge something. You aren't outplaying them by bringing a perk that lets you run away from them faster.
It's not a valid way of seeing game balance, and this totally ignores the fact that a majority of the killer roster simply do not have mobility based powers. Even 'lunge' attacks like the Demogorgan still have a cooldown and recovery time. If these perks are so effective against mobility killers, what do they do to the rest of the cast? To the otherwise majority killer roster who don't have mobility?
And what even constitutes as mobility? You don't like killers that are fast, or have some kind of teleport, based on your previous replies. So you just don't like killers with map traversal and need these crutch perks to deal with them because you don't know how to chase.
The only things i'm willing to concede here is that Kaneki and Springtrap are badly implemented for different reasons, but we can't use their questionable design to validate perks like SB and Lithe existing the way they are. These killers are an entirely different discussion and are 2/40.
This entire conversation just more and more sounds like "I don't know what i'm supposed to do in a chase and would rather run away from the killer instead of play the game", when the perks specifically being so uninteractive is a crux of my criticisms in the first place.
Sure, some perks can exist that are probably better against some killers than other ones. That's fine. But pretending these two obnoxious free distance perks get a reason to be 20% of the survivor's pickrates just because some killers are fast is ridiculous. That's quite simply not how the game is meant to be balanced.
>a survivor that isn't already at a jungle gym or building is going to need a way to get there without it just being a free down every time a survivor needs to wander over to a gen that isn't in a loopable structure.Actually, you're supposed to be punished by bad positioning, which pretty much any killer can do. There are supposed to be deadzones in maps. If you run yourself into a corner it's literally your fault.
Also, most gens are literally in the middle of a gym or loopable structure. Even gens in middle buildings typically have vaults right next to them. I don't really get what you mean by 'isn't a loopable structure'. What gens are you looking at that don't immediately have lockers, vaults, pallets near them? What are you talking about?
Even in the rare cases of a 'bad' gen location spawn, which I know can sometimes happen, then it's just a harder gen to pop. Either take the risk or do a different gen. I think a lot of your complaints you use SB/Lithe as a crutch to avoid are just facets of intended gameplay. If your entire thought process is "I never want to even see the killer or be in a single chase because I don't know what i'm doing and can't loop" then that's just not a valid way to excuse SB/lithe being so abusable and it makes me wonder why you play the game in the first place, no offense.>If the entire enemy team is running around, then they aren't doing gensYeah you just aren't thinking on this one me saying "the problem becomes infinitely worse when every survivor has free distance perks" does not at all imply i'm somehow starting a chase with every single survivor on the map at once
The process against a team of competent survivors who properly spread out on gens and bring these perks is that you chase one, realize they have SB or lithe, decide to turn around to pressure a gen or chase another survivor, they also have one of these perks, the next one you find has one of these perks, the next one you find has one of these perks
Yes, you just have to deal with it at that point, but you can only chase one survivor at a time, and knowing that every single chase you get into is going to have an arbitrary free number of additional seconds tacked on while you're catching up to a survivor just to start the actual chase itself will never not feel ridiculous
The problem only gets extrapolated when the entire survivor team can waste your time for zero effort for the entire match
You cannot pretend that i'm talking about this situation like every single survivor is running away from me at once because that is an intentional misrepresentation of both what a normal game of DBD looks like and isn't the situation that i'm already describing in my posts
Do not make up a different situation where you assume the survivors are playing as bad as they possibly can be playing just to make it easier to disagree with me
>One point I would like to make here is that just because a perk is frequently chosen, doesn't inherently make it overpowered or a problemYou don't need to note this, I already said it in my post when I was talking about windows, and metas are still defined by the most powerful perks 99% of the time, unnecessary comment
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if you actually need a survivor to not run any exhaustion perks to stand a chance in a chase, look at what that actually means.I never said that in any of my posts and repeatedly gave examples of exhaustion perks that I thought were fair and balanced specifically to compare them to how I thought sb/lithe were unhealthy, if you're going to engage in this conversation from such a bad faith angle then don't respond at all man
>How about your queue time? Do you care what removing those perks do to that? Few enough people want to play survivor as it is that there's constant blood point bribes in place, you want to make it more frustrating?Right because the too long killer queue time hostage situation gambit is a valid take and has a lot to do with what i'm saying here dude come on
>demanding those perks be removed to offset a killer's skill imbalance doesn't make the argument correct or good for game balance or health.this also doesn't make sense given that there's zero skill involved in using the perks i'm complaining about, you aren't outplaying someone by getting a huge amount of free distance on them before the chase even begins, the lack of effort is a part of the problem
>Then you are intentionally ignoring or disregarding the limitations that are present on the perks you are complaining about. Having a cooldown mechanic is very much a part of how balanced something is.Literally all I said is that a perk having a cooldown doesn't justify it being broken which is going to be true now and forever
You have raised no valid points or counter arguments
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