http://dbd.game/killswitch
I feel like BHVR really doesn't understand Macro-play in DBD
This was a a thought I've had since reading Knight and Clown's changes with the upcoming Walking Dead chapter, and while everyone was busy overhyping Conviction and Last Stand (You cannot convince me they are anything other then niche at best) I was looking at the changes to Knight and Clown with a raised eyebrow and a "Why" on my lips.
For those who aren't informed on the concept, Macro and Micro play are a Strategy Game term meant to describe two things, your individual decision making, and your overall strategy, as an example, in a Battle in a Total War game, your Macro is your ability to analyse your army composition versus the enemy's army, as well as your formations and overall battle strategy, whereas your Micro is your ability to manage individual units and their abilities. It should be noted that you can absolutely get away with being deficient in either Micro or Macro if you're good with the other, I am pretty bad at Micro due to my tendency to fixate on one unit instead of keep a eye on the entire army, but my Macro is pretty good, I can make up a strategy on the fly and execute the plan fairly well, however, mastering both Macro and Micro will be how you truly master a Strategy game.
Why do I bring this up? Well, Macro and Micro are a part of DBD, if I was to put a numerical value on it, I'd say it's 70% Micro, 30% Macro. Micro in DBD is your individual performance, how well you can loop a Killer or how quickly you down a Survivor and use your power, whereas Macro is your strategy for the match, how well you as a Survivor manage the resources on the map, How you as a Killer deal with those resources and manage your chases, what perks and items you bring to the match, etc. While this is a lot of different things that fall under Macro, at the end of the day DBD's Macro-play is stuff you don't really think about, you don't load into a map like The Game and think of how you're going to handle things, you're going to load into The Game and immediately shut your brain off because it's just 30 God Pallets, A lot of DBD's Macro play is ultimately in the background and is stuff most players don't really think about.
That being said, there is a good chunk of Macro Play in DBD that players DO have to engage with, mostly down to what Killer they play, this is how I would split them
Killers that lean or are heavily reliant on Micro are the Killers who have minimal to do or think about outside of chases, Killers like Demo, Xeno, Springtrap, and Unknown have things to manage as part of their Power, but ultimately every one of these cares more about and focuses on ending Chases quickly, Killers that care more about Macro are those with a lot of stuff to manage, Sadako for example has to manage her TVs for her teleports, and keep a eye on how much Condemn each Survivor has as well as if they're using Tapes, Freddy has to try and force people to go into Dream Pallets to get value out of them and keep a eye on who's Awake, who's Asleep, and who's protected by a Clock, Dredge has to keep a eye on where he can teleport as well as how close it is to Nightfall, etc.
You might also notice that all of the very unpopular and most of the weak Killers are dependant on Macro and all of the popular and coincidentally strong ones are dependant on Micro, and the simple conclusion I came to is that the player-base just doesn't like Macro-based Killers, people care more about what a Killer can do in chase versus what they can do to win a game, and while I could very easily put on a smug face, push my glasses, and say it's because the player-base hates thinking and would rather play a Killer that ignores all decision making with 4 aura reading perks to minimalize required brainpower and maximise dopamine…actually no I'm 100% going to do that.
Look, lets be real here, the DBD player-base has had a pattern of disliking or outright hating every Killer release if their power isn't something that can ended chases in 5 seconds, and BHVR has seen this and acted accordingly, Trapper has been the worst killer in the game since launch, Hag has been left in the dust for years, Twins were almost turned into a completely braindead chasing machine, Skull Merchant got her legs cut off and has been left in the dirt for 2 years, and the most popular Killers have always been some variation of "Move Fast" because people like moving fast, which, by the way, is completely fine, I'd be lying if I said I didn't also enjoy the Dash killers or play with End/Fury in most of my builds because I just don't want to think when I get home from work. But at the same time…it is nice to be rewarded for putting in some brainpower, which is why the Clown and Knight changes just irk me so much.
Clown is not a Killer that requires a lot of effort to play, but the nerfs somehow managed to make him require even LESS effort to play, instead of making the Pink bottles the best choice in most cases with Yellow being used mostly for flexing, BHVR made the Yellow bottles the objectively best option in almost every case by making them give more Haste and making them activate faster, making Pink give less Hinder for less time, and then nerfing all of Clown's best addons, if you hated Clown because he just made you slower I hope you're prepared to hate him even more when the patch drops because now he's going to be running at 127% at every single loop in the game before even considering stuff like Rapid Brutality, STBFL, or Nothing but Misery.
And Knight? Knight's changes are not only completely unwarranted but also completely backwards, the basekit Call to Arms and better pathing is nice, but everything else? Carnifex does not need a Standard spawn time of 8 seconds because nobody ever uses him for Hunts, and nobody ever uses Carnifex for Hunts because his insta-break is more valuable for Commands and he moves at 105%, and Jailor? Jailor having a standard spawn time of 4 seconds is one of the dumbest nerfs I have ever read, Jailor's entire purpose is finding someone quickly and then Hunting them for a long time, he is designed to either keep a Survivor busy for a very long time or set up for a pincer attack, that is Knight's entire game strategy, use Carni for Commands in chase, Assassin for Hunts to score hits outside of chase, and Jailor for Patrols for Slowdown or pincer moves, That is how Knight is designed, that has been how he has been designed since his release, this nerf takes out all of the decision making of leaving a Guard to chase someone. The Carnifex "buff" is never going to come into play because leaving a AI that moves at 105% to chase someone for 8 seconds minimum or 12 seconds at most is not going to do anything, and Jailor might as well not be in the game anymore for anything other then dropping him in a loop and pincering someone, because all of his value for slowdown (Which, coincidentally, means more Knights are going to be running more Slowdown because they can't rely on Jailor anymore, meaning less build variety in favour of more slowdown) has been removed in favour of letting anybody with a braincell remove it almost immediately, the changes were supposed to make Knight less reliant on Pincer attacks, right? Because all these did was make him MORE reliant on it while getting rid of most of his macro-play and decision making.
All of this just leaves me a bit baffled honestly, while I have a good feeling the Knight and Clown changes will not make it off of the PTB just by virtue of how many people have complained about it en-mass, the fact that they were even considered and thrown onto a PTB in the first place just…why? That's really all I have to ask, why? Clown and Knight aren't even that particularly strong, they can do some pretty cool stuff but against a stacked team they struggle really hard, why change them in a such a way that completely removes most of the decision making behind how they play? Who were these changes supposed to appeal to? Because they aren't going to please people that hate these killers and they sure as hell aren't going to make the people who play them happy.
These changes to me at least demonstrate that BHVR doesn't really get what makes Macro-play in DBD special, and why removing it sucks, it's nice to having each individual decision work towards the end-goal of winning over just picking Kaneki and winning through nothing but raw chase power, what would be nice is having killers with more Macro focus, over having killers that do rely on Macro being either changed to have it removed or being bad.
G'night
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Thank you for literally saying what I've been thinking for days. My gameplay history isn't really in competitive games and mostly sways towards strategy and puzzle games, and I saw a lot of that in dbd. My main is Xeno because he has that strategic potential while still having a threatening chase power, both things my first main (wraith) never had. But the third killer I ever picked up was knight, and he absolutely had that macro gameplay I was looking for. Seeing one of my favourite aspects of one of my favorite characters get so utterly brutalised is so disappointing. Lets just hope we can make enough of a stink before the devs kill my boy.
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They do understand and they don't care about it at best and at worst are actively making malicious changes against it.
They purposefully want to reduce killer's decision making in macro as much as possible, just like they want to rob survivor's agency in chase as much as possible.
As long as they keep changing the game like that, the killer role will just further become the role that's extremely good at stomping bad / uncoordinated players and that's going to get stomped just as badly by good / coordinated players. the game will just turn more into blight by daylight as the only thing that would matter is, as you put it, raw chase power.
find guy, chase them down cuz you cant play strategically, hook them cuz you cant play strategically, ######### off to do the same to another guy because you can't play strategically. do it every time until game over. ggs
If devs cared about macroplay, they wouldve given killers viable alternatives instead of directly and indirectly nerfings available macroplay options instead of just introducing another nerf to skill expression and giving killers compensation in form of more gentime to chase survivors or another uncounterable chase power that you need to pay money for or another nerf to maps and tiles.
Post edited by SpringMyTrap on9 -
Can you maybe restate what you mean a bit more concise? What does this list represent?
Killers you think are micro and macro? Or how you play against them? Both?
Micro and your definition of it describes almost the opposite of what Plague is but you listed her in micro leaning.
Meyers cant even be micro he has to tier up as well. Hes 100% a macro killer3 -
im not really sure what OP means, but commonly micro means mechanical / 1v1 skill expression while macro is strategic / 1v4 skill expression.
aiming your power / making good reads with it to get a hit is micro, understanding you need to stay around your hook because survivors have most of their gen progress on the gen nearby and you can force good trade or understanding you can / cant commit certain chases is macro.
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Micro in DBD means your individual chase performance, Macro is your overall strategy for the match
Most Killers are designed to care pretty much entirely around how well they do in Chase, I.e, they’re reliant on Micro. Whereas a Killer like Trapper or Hag have to consider where they’re going to set up their power to get value, I.E, Macro.
Plague is almost entirely dependant on Micro, her power has some use outside of chases but ultimately you either vomit on someone until they’re Broken or they cleanse and give you a power that can do actual damage, there’s minimal Macro and what Macro there is is pretty passive and entirely in the hands of Survivors being dumb and doing the one thing they should never do against a Plague.
As for Myers, he is entirely Micro, his power is dedicated to nothing but making his chases quicker through Exposed, the only reason he wasn’t in Micro Heavy is because you have to sometimes consider when to Stalk and who you’re Stalking instead of just stalking the first person you see every chance you get
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Then yea this list needs refinement.
No. Plague you have to know what to do with power and when to take a red fountain, thats her macro. Where and who to chase, what to disease, keep disease up etc… this isnt micro. This is all macro and setup.
If you play plague "all about chase" and ignore these things you are just straight out weaker. Youll take red fountain, brain off and make it all about chase, and most likely lose breaking a bunch of pallets and not having another fountain to use.
Can probably get away with playing her like that if you are facing new survivors no doubt.
Meyers again, cant even be micro. His setup alone is all macro. You cant even chase until you have tiered up and its not like TII meyers is killing people left and right. Its TIII.
Not to mention his easily most popular perk picked is play with your food. An entirely macro play based perk. So meyers is not micro in the slightest.
I disagree with your whole idea that macro is a way to lose or is where weak/strong killers are. Nurse/Blight/Kanakei are strong because balance wise they are just fundamentally broken, not really anything to do with micro or macro.
I dont see how you think Artist is macro either. She has no setup, nothing really long game wise outside of personal strategy. She plays the same as Unknown but with no teleport(macro) so youd swap these two on your list places. As you can strategically setup unknowns teleport. You cant really do anything with crows for macro game its "all about chase" with her.0 -
Plague’s decision making boils down entirely to if you even want to bother exercising the effort in Infecting something to begin with, that is it, that is all her Macro-play is, her gameplan is entirely centered around spreading her infection to everything and then fully Infecting someone once you see them, there is no strategy, there is barely any Macro, it is entirely chase-oriented
Myers is also, once again, entirely Micro, just because he sometimes might not want to Stalk someone immediately does not change that his entire power is “make Chase better”,
PWYF and perks in general have minimal baring in this discussion about Killer powers so no idea why you’d bring that up
I also never said that Macro is how you lose in DBD, what I actually said was that the player-base doesn’t like it and most of the killers who rely on Macro are weak, which they are with minimal exception.
Fundamentally broken or not, Nurse Kaneki and Blight all only care about chases, ergo, they’re entirely reliant on Micro
Artist cares about Macro because she has to consider where Survivors are going to go and where lockers are, as well as how many Crows she wants to place down in order to manage the subsequent cooldown, her Crows are substantially weaker if you aren’t at least passable at predicting Survivor movement or try to hit people in areas with lockers.
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Plague’s decision making boils down entirely to if you even want to bother exercising the effort in Infecting something to begin with, that is it, that is all her Macro-play is,
If that was the case then just recklessly take your red puke at the start of the match and you lose. You have to know when to take it and have a bigger plan for it (macro) you dont just flip a switch and go "its red power time". Or if you have multiple of it, due to survivor interaction or bringing apples, when to grab one.
"Bother infecting" is a weird way to say something about her. Im not sure what plague ever would not "bother" to infect anyone. If you dont run addons for it, you cant keep disease on objects even remotely long enough to keep survivors from touching them. Puking only on objects and relying on that, is a certain playstyle based on add-ons. And is still macro in the end.
The only way you could without duration addons is if … you had a grand plan to 3 gen them. Which is … also macro play.Myers is also, once again, entirely Micro, just because he sometimes might not want to Stalk someone immediately does not change that his entire power is “make Chase better”,
Meyers is a macro killer. You dont make everything about chase if you cant even chase or use your power to begin with. He has setup (macro) time before he can even do anything. And you have to manage your Evil Within III once you have it, you dont just use it get a down and thats it. Thats how you waste your TIII. You also have to decide when and where to use it.PWYF and perks in general have minimal baring in this discussion about Killer powers so no idea why you’d bring that up
Perks you should take into consideration. And add-ons honestly. We dont face these killers in a vacuum. You are talking about the strength and weakness of killers in your underlying message.
Micro= strong
Macro= weak
Well if you ignore addons and perks then Meyers quickly becomes weak, but you say hes micro? I thought micro was stronger?
If you want to highlight what killers are strong/weak based on their micro/macro, IGNORING addons/perks then none of this list would even make sense.Artist cares about Macro because she has to consider where Survivors are going to go and where lockers are, as well as how many Crows she wants to place down in order to manage the subsequent cooldown
Artist is macro because where survivors are going and where lockers are? What?
How many crows to place down(resource management your list is now a mess)?
I play artist and you dont have to worry about where lockers are. Thats something a survivor has to know if they have the distance between a crow on them or not. There is no grand plan around lockers for Artist, if you are far away enough its a counterplay, if you are close youll just get grabbed.
Lockers are moment to moment play, there is no Artist player out there who is keeping track of lockers stop it.“where’s the survivor, aim, shoot, chase.” Thats it thats her kit. Thats her play.
Personal play outside of that like "worrying about where lockers are" go ahead and link me any artist, even professional tournament one. Noone worries about where they are when placing crows.Fundamentally broken or not, Nurse Kaneki and Blight all only care about chases, ergo, they’re entirely reliant on Micro
Putting your emphasis on micro and macro is my problem when defining the strength of these killers. Thats what I disagree with, Nurse/Blight/Kaneki arent "strong because they are micro" they are strong because they are unbalanced. As in they cover too much distance, have little to no cooldown, ignore mechanics other killers have to do
Mechanically broken is their strength. Not "Micro" being why they are strong, they are micro played killers though.1 -
It is truly unfortunate that the developers seem to be moving away from macro-oriented killers and towards micro, case in point: the outrageous number of dash killers that we have in the game.
But honestly, what makes the situation even worse is the fact that the few macro killers we have in the game are taken away from their core playerbase and turned towards micro.
Skull Merchant is a prime example with her garbage, genuinely awful design previews, but she is not the only one:
We have, of course, the very first instance when something like this happened: Freddy.
Freddy's rework in 2019 was the very first example of taking a killer who was meant for macro gameplay, and turning them towards micro.
The result? An extremely oppressive killer who was nerfed after little more than a year, then left to rot until early-2025. And the players who enjoyed Old Freddy were never given anything. At best an add-on that does one of the many things his base-kit (not another add-on, base-kit) could do in the past.
And that isn't acceptable. If new releases will be more micro-oriented going forward, fine. It is not a good decision, but okay. However, the killers who do excel at macro-gameplay should never, under any circusntamces, lose their identity.
Post edited by GeneralV on9 -
I'll just chime in with which Killers I would place differently on this list, because I think micro vs macro is an interesting discussion worth having:
- Legion should be bumped down slightly. Feral Frenzy's great information via KI & their power becoming stronger based on Survivor positioning provides them with more macro potential than the average chase power does.
- I think Vecna should be bumped down. Mage Hand is a chase power, but also involves longterm decisionmaking about which Pallets you'd rather break vs using Mage Hand. Dispelling Sphere is a mapwide guesswork & information tool, and Fly is a traversal power with a long cooldown that benefits greatly from being able to make good guesses as to Survivor positions. (unlike dedicated traversal killers who can just zip to the other corner of the map if they didn't find anyone) Even Flight of the Damned can be converted to an Artist-like poke with some addons.
- Unknown should totally be lower because of Hallucination management.
- I'm tempted to bump Pig down because while RBTs are pretty simple, they flip the script on anticipating typical Survivor movements a lot and predicting where they're going when they have RBTs is a big part of Pig's skillcap compared to regular chasing.
- Sadako should be bumped down IMO, she has a full win condition for if she wins enough at macro.
- I'd bump Freddy up, macro elements definitely come into the power but not to the same extent as the Killers around him. He feels more like Doctor's ratio than Singularity's.
- I'd push Twins up, using both twins for macro plays can definitely be a big part of them, but at the end of the day their strength lies in Victor, not really being able to quickly switch between them
How I define both micro/macro, the test I like to work by is how much Killers value information on a Survivor in chase, vs information on Survivors that are far away. And I agree that the macro side of the game has been somewhat overshadowed by the satisfaction of cool movement or strong chase powers biasing Killer selection.
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I'd argue both stalkers, and some Stealth Killers, are more 50/50 or macro leaning than Micro. Ghostface for example ideally wants to get fast downs without chasing and ambush people before a chase starts, he needs to set up for that. Myers' goal is to build his power quickly and strategically and then finish a chase as fast as possible. Pig is more about slowing players down. I don't think those three are Micro-leaning. If you're playing them as micro, AKA chase based Killers, you're not playing them correctly at all and that's probably why people lose with them and then call them weak - because they are not chase Killers and you shouldn't play them just as chase Killers.
Chucky is Micro leaning, someone like Wraith is definitely Micro leaning. Springtrap is a 50/50 and Sadako 100% is Macro based with some light chase. But I think specifically Ghostie, Myers, and Pig aren't as micro as you think.
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I have to disagree the macro heavy killers are disliked because you need to think and plan ahead. Though I'm sure that's true to some extent. I think they're unpopular because they get their teeth kicked in pretty frequently. It's hard to enjoy a killer when you feel like you're the one getting killed.
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To be fair, my friend, I'm currently having a lot of fun with Skull Merchant, and she is among the weakest killers in the game.
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To be fair, a lot of the community doesn't understand macro play either...
It is the hardest skill to develop in the game (I'm certainly not good at it myself, but I'm trying), but its why some players just resort to hard tunneling all the time, so they don't have to engage with/learn macro play at all.
It's also why the most popular killers (and thus why most modern killers) are all killers with insane map mobility that almost never have to really check the macro game to be effective... why bother thinking about macro timings when your killer is lethal enough to down in 30s flat between hooks with consistency, and if all else fails you can always just run back to hook at any time to maintain pressure?
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I feel like the least they could do is give her bidirectional drones back. Single direction is sooooOooooo bad D:
Anything but perma expose and killer instinct really I was fine with.0 -
A bit of a small correction but doesn't impact much until haste addons for PTB clown are brought in. 12% haste bottles makes clown 128.8% movement speed while with both haste addons you're running at Blood Lust 3 the entire match which is 132.25%. But yeah do we REALLY want a clown who's just incentivized to mindlessly throw yellow bottles at his feet to be the best play while gutting any depth the character has?
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Well, my dear friend, I strongly support reverting all of her nerfs and leaving her be.
Skull Merchant 2.0 didn't cause the 3 gen thing, and was perfectly fine as she was. They could make a few minor adjustments if needed, but overall that is what I think she should be.
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You absolutely can still enjoy playing weaker killers. Myers and Pig are still two of my favorites. However if a killer is so weak you just can't win no matter what you do it's going to kill the fun for most people.
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Fair enough, my friend, I agree.
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id be 100% onboard with this idea. And I would offer playing against you in a custom match any time ♥
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i always thought the way to fix her was to make her more proactive and require more aware input.
make her manually activate drones to make the lights appear, buff hinder to like 20% but make it so it lasts for like a second with beam immunity being about same duration as well so she needs to constantly flicker it back and forth to maintain the effect, give survivors a way to remove stacks but in a way that is fair, for example hacking drones adds scan stacks, but if you set off the clawtrap from hacking drones rather than from being scanned, this clawtrap won't deal damage, allowing you to reset your stacks without suffering the hit.
Post edited by SpringMyTrap on0 -
The unfortunate reality with that is, since the more Macro-heavy Killers are weaker on the whole, they’re played less, which means less people are encouraged to play them due to requiring more effort for the same results more Micro-dependant Killers can achieve with less effort, which causes the devs to make less Macro-heavy killers since they look at the stats and see they’re unpopular
Singularity’s the closest we have to a strong Macro-dependant Killer, but even then the easiest and by extension the most popular way to play him is to just launch a Biopod at the first person you see and teleport spam them to death, and maybe hold a 3 gen with Biopods if needed, that’s as far as most people go when it comes to Singularity’s Macro-play because you just simply don’t need to have a good grasp of Macro to play him and do decently well
I think if we got a real A or even S tier Macro-dependant Killer, who’s kit cares less about quick chases and more about outthinking the Survivors, then maybe the community would as a whole appreciate the concept more, but the problem with that is how you make a A or S tier Macro killer that isn’t obnoxious to play against or infuriating to play
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There's one more component to macro that's missing here, which is related to strategy, but not identical. Essentially: how are you occupying the survivors' time during the match? How are you keeping them busy?
Effectively, pressure.
And although there are, unfortunately, a lot of people who think this is "pressuring gens", it's not. It's pressuring the survivors. The gens aren't the killers objective. At best, gens are an expendable resource for the killer, like health states or even hook states for survivors.
Which is the main reason the devs have spent 2 years buffing chase and nerfing maps. Reduced chase times, means more time you can spend pressuring survivors.
Also unfortunately, most killers use this feature to save time in chase with one survivor, to simply waste that time standing around a hook to tunnel them out, or camping because they can't find anyone else (or can't be bothered to look for anyone else).
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exactly.
you have to make survivors do something / be unable to do anything. it isn't fun for them, but this is how the game works.
you can't just expect them to run around and give you time to play the game, though unfortunately, that actually does happen way more often than it should.
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You can't really pressure 4 people at once as single Killer. Unless you're completely dominating all the chase, there'll always be someone on gen.
1 on hook
1 go for rescue/healing
1 occupies killer in chase
1 repairing gen.
This is why tunnelling is extremely effective, since it removes one person from the game, leaving no one repairing gen, meaning you have all the time in the world to kill the rest of survivors. This is the BIGGEST pressure Killer can apply.
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Macro pressure is probably the hardest skill to learn as Killer.
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Glad you agree, dear friend.
And thank you very much for the offer! I'll keep it in mind <3
While this is not a bad idea, my friend, I don't believe that trap killers should have proactive playstyles.
It kinda defeats the point of being a set up killer, imho. Trapper, Hag and Skull Merchant are supposed to get value from the web they created around the map, but they don't "control" it per se, they just create the web.
That is why the design previews for Skull Merchant are terrible. They are literally the same thing as making Trapper manually control his bear traps and having them walk around chomping survivors.
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The list makes no sense. If you mean macro = map presence, eventually good 4v1 and micro = having no map presence then your list makes no sense. Pyramid head for example is decent in 1v1 or Clown but they can't do anyhing against prerunners, along with trapper, pig… while killers like spingtrap, kaneki, blight, billy have so insane macro that you pretty much never escape as last survivor.
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I'm very happy with these changes as solo q survivor main.
Now let's not pretend killer macro is any kind of rocket science here. Hold the best 3 gen and then aggressively tunnel and camp the weak link and then slug for 4k. Most killers focus on the latter which takes like a day to master. Killer role is designed to be easy wins out of the box.
The clown and Knight nerfs require both better chase skill and macro awareness from those killers.
After all, the purple bottle nerf is a nerf to chase ability. Clown can no longer get brain dead downs by never breaking a single pallet and throwing only pinks. He has to actually use two bottles to play well, although most clown mains are so lazy they're just switching to yellow only cause they never learned to combine bottles. Also cigar box proxy camping abuse is nerfed too which is great.
Arinad made a rage video on how he wants to quit clown now which is hilarious. The last vid I watched by him he was teaching clown players how to proxy camp basement with cigar box. What amazingly skillful "macro". /s
As for Knight, also great changes. He's forced to actually have chase skill instead of brain dead zoning with Jailor and Assassin which made grabbing the standard mostly impossible. More challenging chases means these killers must apply gen pressure more effectively and actually commit to chases to win.
As for survivor, it's more like 70 percent macro and 30 percent individual micro skill. First you have your unreliable teammates, often with less than 100 hours when I have over 3.5k. You could run killer for what should be a 4-5 gen chase yet only one pops. Or a 3 gen chase and none pop. So much for micro. Then you have broken OP killer mechanics which limit skill expression in chase. It's very hard to carry in solo q compared to other games even if youre the best player on your team, most killers just avoid you til the end.
Breaking 3 gens and split pressure from the very beginning are essential. So many solo q matches are lost because teammates team up on gens at the start without prove thyself and do safe gens first. I like to run Deja Vu so I see this happen all too often. And it's annoying when my teammates frequently come to work on my gen instead of spreading out, so I move to another gen.
These changes are a great move by the devs. The next step is a global nerf to the low cheese skill tactics like tunneling, slugging and camping. Get those average kill rates down to 50% across the board so killers can be reminded what a fair match feels like instead of having their egos stroked with auto pilot pay to win mechanics. Knight and Clown are notoriously braindead to chase with, the former had AI doing most of the work while the latter just spammed pink bottles forcing pre drops or free hits at every loop. We generally know these changes are great because of how much killer mains are complaining about having to play skillfully in chase. Very good job so far BHVR.
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Example of macro play:
No tunneling, no camping, no movement killer, brought to Eyrie of crows, 4 survivors alive 1 gen to go, all gens found and being worked on, 3 hook stages at 1 gen.
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I just dont think leave and forget killers work well for this game.
The set up killers should still be chasers with difference being the need to prepare the, well, setup for the chase before hand and use it to quickly eliminate survivor.
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"lets not pretend killer macro is any kind of rocket science"
i always found it rather hypocritical to say that because you making this distinction implies that survivor macro is something impossibly hard.
also, as solo q survivor you should ######### dread bhvr gutting down killer macro skill expression because their compensation will rob you of your only way to win the game - winning chases on your own.
the game where killers arent allowed to camp, tunnel, slug or hit&run is the game where killers are designed and balanced to be able to end every chase very fast with little to no agency from the survivor because only this way killer will have enough time to chase everyone.
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lol "macro"...that's just an example of utterly incompetent survivors. early on the guy is just standing still doing nothing until he's hit. it takes them over 7 min to complete the first gen at 4 alive which is terrible even with corrupt intervention. during that time they managed to drink the cool aid several times cause they're too scared to play injured in the "healing meta". they also miss multiple skill checks not even close to killer, can't hold a chase longer than 10 sec and give you vile purge almost the whole match. it's actually a miracle they even powered the gates playing like that. wouldn't be surprised if one of them was immersed the whole time cause they knew the match was unwinnable with their caliber of teammates.
-4 -
I never claimed macro was particularly hard, but it's definitely way easier for killer. it's just tunnel camp and slug for the most part so the devs have done little to nothing substantial to kill macro play for killer. they've put band aid fixes that are a joke but hopefully stage 2 provides some worthwhile.
holding a 3 gen and hit n run is more sophisticated macro but most killers just go for the tunnel and camping in my matches.
the nerfs to clown and Knight nerfs chase ability, not macro play. it's harder for knight to pincer zone and harder for clown to spam pinks at every loop. this means they have to get good in chase, but bear in mind, these nerfs are very light handed.
of course they will still abuse tunneling and camping but that's nothing new. stage 2 is needed to address that. nerf the cheese macro so gen pressure is actually required instead of passive slowdown abuse and nerf the chase ability so survivors have actual counterplay in chase. yes, that means killer role is more challenging but that's a good thing considering the snoozefest it currently is. killer should only receive nerfs until the average kill rate is 50 percent on every killer
-6 -
sigh
the clown nerfs switch one braindead playstyle for another.
knight's nerfs make sure that braindead playstyle (albeit a bit weaker in his case) is the only one.
7 -
Sounds like you dont play or know how to play macro or against plague either. Thats okay though we are all learning
1 -
???
They have an afk, miss skill checks, drink cool aid instead of doing gens, don't know how to loop and give you vile purge the whole match.
obviously the counter to plague is to do the complete opposite of what those bots did
-1 -
They have an afk
Which I left at the start of the match. (Macro)
miss skill checks
Your matches people just hit every single skill check? Huh wierd. I think I watch streamers who play this game as a career and they are about 20x better than both of us combined.
And they miss skill checks.drink cool aid instead of doing gens
You dont get infected needlessly if you dont have to. Thats part of plague macro counterplay. They dont know I have an addon that extends disease 40 seconds though.
This would be like immediately getting on a gen against a nurse at the start of a match. A small bit of stealth at the start goes a long way not giving a fast early down.don't know how to loop and give you vile purge the whole match.
This doesnt track.
If they didnt know how to loop why did I have only 3 hook stages at the end of the match?
Yui and Dwight both knew exactly where to go every time for chase. Becca played the TL just fine she didnt know I had Bam.give you vile purge the whole match.
Corrupt purge is red puke just so you know. Vile is what you have to start.
Cleansing with this strong of a map is not a bad idea as well. The general rule that gets touted on the forums "dont clease until the end" is not something you follow after you have played the game longer than a couple hundred of hours. There is about 40 asterisks that come with that saying, and this match is one of those situations.
Pluss, I dont know if they are all just reacting to someone else doing it. One person does it you may as well all do it.
And they did extremely well given the fact that I had corrupt available to me all match. They are good players and loopers for sure.
So theres pretty much no truth to anything you have said in your statement.Post edited by ChuckingWong on0 -
I wasn't criticizing you about the afk, but afk by itself basically guarantees a loss for survivor.
The pros miss skill checks too but they missed more than one before the first gen popped and that's embarrassing. Streamers aren't inherently better than me, just known cause they're extraverted. I mostly hit great skill checks and rarely miss altogether.
Dude...1 gen in over 7 min at 4 survivors. I don't care what killer you're facing there's no excusing that. It's a guaranteed loss. You have to get sick against plague and gen rush cause she can't guard every gen simultaneously and she's weak in chase without vile purge.
only drink cool aid in corners of the map with finished gens that force the killer to travel far distance to a useless position. if you are scared of vomit the whole match and especially the beginning you guarantee a 4k for plague. especially early game there's no reason to heal that much and be scared to do gens just cause of some green goo. competent survivors do the gens regardless and drink cool aid late game or for hook saves against a camper. it's because of the healing meta too many survivors don't know how to play injured. I do all the time cause resilience is boss, I get so much value vs plague. they need to split up and allow themselves to get sick to complete gens and limit vile purge stacks especially early on.
those survivors couldn't loop for ######### lmao...sub 10 second chases every time. part of the issue was the vile purge but all they did was run to a tile and get downed every time. the reason you had vile purge the whole time is cause they were way too immersed and spending all their time drinking cool aid and hiding afraid of green goo and taking turns getting hooked.
those survivors are low MMR and or throwing on purpose. my teammates are often bad but not that bad. if survivors took your advice and played like these guys you will 4k every match with plague. so never blindly trust a killer mains advice on how to play survivor.
-4 -
Dude...1 gen in over 7 min at 4 survivors. I don't care what killer you're facing there's no excusing that. It's a guaranteed loss. You have to get sick against plague and gen rush cause she can't guard every gen simultaneously and she's weak in chase without vile purge.
Assuming peoples MMR is such a tried and weak argument. Thats not the only way to play this game dude. You need to calm down when addressing others you dont even know or know anything about.
Why dont you post something tangible rather than dismissing something that doesnt align with your beliefs calling "them bad" or whatever massive ###### you typed towards others.
You have managed not to really say anything but "oh they are bad it was a guarenteed win"
If we follow your logic:
1 gen remaining all 4 alive.
If they were so "bad" why is this situation true?
Am I just "bad"? Everyones just bad or "$@#%^#" whatever you typed?
Post something tangible backing up what you say rather than picking apart and selectively ignoring other peoples evidence.Post edited by ChuckingWong on-1 -
I just gave an explanation of all the mistakes they made. They did the gens but way too late once you had too much vile purge and their teammate dead. Most matches are completely over within 7-12 minutes and they only finished the first gen after that. If you don't see the issue there I can't help you. A competent team would have the gates open with all 4 alive if they played well. I watched that match start to finish out of curiosity and i was just cringing the whole time. No individual running skill and terrible strats from those survivors. A lesson on how to lose vs plague. And the results do t lie. if they played so well they'd have at least 2 out.
-3 -
Again its corrupt purge. Not vile.
Stop assuming others skill level at the game-1 -
The names not important and vile purge sounds better anyway. I'm not assuming I watched the whole match and they were completely lost
-2 -
Then explain 1 generator remaining, all 4 survivors alive. 3 hook stages.
I'd love to hear more assumptions
Just to be clear this thread is "you cant play macro, macro is bad"
And I did, and nothing you have said has addressed how I played not being macro.0 -
I'm not sure how Sadako isn't macro heavy. She has zero chase power and her entire shtick revolves around managing the 1v4 and less about 1v1's. It's entirely based on managing condemned, managing TV's, managing who has a tape. That is easily as much macro as the people that are listed as "macro heavy".
5 -
I even watched half of it a second time. Take off 1 min 45 sec cause the beginning was in lobby, still they took 5 min 20 sec to do first gen. Terrible.
gen is 90 sec and there's 4 of them. if they were any good they'd have 2 gens pop shortly after your first hook and if they knew how to loop 2 gens done before your first hook.
even if they're "stealthy" they shouldn't waste more than 30 seconds before holding M1. then if 1 gets chased, you have 3 players doing separate gens and they can be sick because you can only chase 1 at a time. so at least two gens shoulda popped by the 3 minute mark and that's very generous.
but instead, they cleansed 4 times at 5 gens and got hooked at least twice during that time. the only chases you didn't drop lasted 10 seconds before the down. in 90 percent of matches that's gg already against any killer.
they finished the gens cause they finally realized they need to hold M1 to escape. but too little too late and they didn't have talented enough runners to turn it around especially with vile...corrupt purge in every chase. it doesn't matter if you power the exit gates that late you've still lost and lucky to get 1 out.
now I was not saying you didn't play "macro". but 4 competent survivors would have at least 2 out in that match.
-2 -
You still havent answered though.
Why is there 1 gen to go and only 3 hooks, 4 alive, if the survivors are "so bad" or "low MMR" or "#######" ?-1 -
What's wild too is that you can tell that once upon a time, they were concerned with this. But you nailed all of their recent changes. Between the changes to balancing, the rapid fire chapters, and the shift in cosmetics to more cutesy cosplay type looks tells me that they're in the dopamine phase. They're trying to get players hooked.
4 -
I told you , cause after wasting way too much time to pop the first gen, they finally started applying pressure. too little too late. and still they were sipping that cool aid like lean addicts.
4 may have been alive but those gens popped way too late so clearly they weren't getting out alive. which they certainly could have had at least 2 out if they were on the gens early and could hold chase 30 sec (which would be far easier without the excessive cool aid consumption)
-3 -
Thats not consistent.
If survivors are "bad" then they dont get to 1 gen with 4 alive and 3 hookstages.
I would think if survivors are "bad" or "low mmr" or whatever you typed about them. They wouldnt even get half the game done, let alone 4 gens.1
