http://dbd.game/killswitch
Why people claim Killer got suddenly hard to play?
Comments
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The problem with this theory is it's not just Killer Mains making videos about this. It's people who play both sides, and people who also play majority Survivor commenting on it. They're all saying the game has gotten tougher for Killers and Escapes are easier for Survivors. Some of these are people who have been in the community since 2016 and are well respected.
The other issue is, a SWF is not just a four stack. If you include 2 and 3 stacks, yes, odds are you're probably encountering someone SWFing with one or more friends about 70% of the time.
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The problem is Blight's power has a limit - as you get better and face better people, just running into them at Mach Ten doesn't cut it anymore; people can and do dodge you like a bull in a Toreador Ring. I've done this to MANY Blights, and even Kanekis. That's the big weakness of these dash and micro-based Killers; you make them whiff once and they whiff HARD. If you're just hoping for his power to save you "because it's oppressive and strong as hell" and you never back it up with the rest of your play being good, you will still be stomped nine ways 'til Sunday.
This is true. I think the issue comes when both the game and community themselves though INSISTS that the path to being considered "good" or "winning" is a 4k, all the time, always. And then the game punishes you for doing it too much by slapping you with stronger and stronger opponents that will knock you down a peg regardless of who you play as. Like, guarantee a ton of those Blights and Kanekis you see at high level play aren't actually that good; they're boosted and are probably having a rotten time. Playing a strong Killer doesn't save you from feeling like crap when you get a good team, and never will.
It also, contrary to popular belief, does NOT make it more likely you will win in sequence; those people who pulled off those crazy Blight streaks did it by playing the absolute sweatiest with tons of slowdown or aura. That isn't skilled play of those Killers, that's playing a basic M1 Killer with extra steps and a ton of slowdown. Anyone else who tried that was NOT streaking anywhere near as long, I promise you. The majority of other Killers too during the killstreak fad were hitting 50-100 games in a row even on the weakest Killers and not every Nurse and Blight was ever hitting the 1500+ streaks these streamers were; it was ONLY Nurse and Blight with specific playstyles and builds going on those streaks.
This is what I'm talking about when I say that the new Killer experience suffers sometimes but nobody seems to care. It's not "anxiety" in the clinical sense, people are not scared of playing Killer. The problem is the pressure to perform and look good without being made fun of if you lose, which let's face it… some Survivor players REALLY like to do. I have had slurs, death wishes, and general horrible treatment thrown at me even if I lose, all because Surv players are generally miserable right now and need to take it out on SOMEONE. It's really that bad. In comparison I can count the number of times a Killer has been a miserable little jerk to my friends and I on one hand. It's a big issue, and it contributes to this anxiety.
That's what bullies do when they feel insecure, they whine and bully to make YOU feel as bad as they do. And often, it hits the least skilled newest players of all. Killer is always a lonely role (unless you're playing an AI Killer or something), so the feeling of several Survs backed up by their friends all mocking YOU specifically for not performing well enough or doing something they deem unfair? Even when you DC out of justified frustration? Even when you simply go stand in the corner and wait, or open the gate for them to leave, or they aren't ACTUALLY mocking you but you feel like they are? Well. It grates. It gets to you after a while. It hurts. You might brush it off or learn to ignore it but the effects are still there, and eventually you just get tired of chasing the same sweaty builds over and over and over and you burn out because it isn't fun anymore. You grow paranoid and soon easily believe ALL Survs are mocking you in secret. And that just isn't a fun feeling.
Because try as some people might to dismiss those feelings in others, even if you don't react… that feeling still hurts a bit. It still gets under your skin and sits in your brain. It's actually psychologically painful and, if actual harassment is involved, even actively harmful. There's actually studies on both ladder anxiety in gaming and how online harassment in gaming can cause psychological effects that can damage a person, this stuff is real.
The other thing that causes this anxiety? The game itself. The game encourages always playing to 3-4k. The game gives increasingly better results in the endscreen for killing more Survivors. The community as a whole has taken 3k+ = win to its logical conclusion and actively blames any player who cannot meet that consistently. But, it isn't always the player's fault if they lose. Sometimes the map is bad, sometimes their perks were outmatched, sometimes the other side was simply BETTER. But the community always seems to infer "lose more = less skill" when these players ask for some reassurance, so of course they feel left out and like they're the problem.
After a while all this pressure to perform and bad experience with Survivors that actually DID mock them for losing, it takes a toll. Some quit. Some play less frequently. Some chase an endless dragon of 4ks they cannot possibly keep forever. If they stay long enough and find their niche they grow out of it. But the fact it occurs AT ALL and then when they go "hey this feels bad" people in the community dogpile them for it? Shameful. Just shameful, no wonder Killer players sometimes doubt their own abilities, grow a perfectionist complex, and play sweaty. Both the game and the community go out of their way to try and scare Killer players off by any means it can.
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Yep, that's one of the biggest issues with the game. I'm lucky to be on console, as there is not text chat post-match, so regardless of which role I play, I don't have to deal with the usual toxicity that persists in online games. However, I have seen plenty of screenshots of Survivors and Killers being toxic - though most of them have been from Survivors who were either upset at losing or being sore winners. If I had to give a percentage, I'd guess, of the screenshots I've seen, 80% were from Survivors and the other 20% from Killers.
This toxicity, and pressure, definitely lends to a sense of anxiety when playing the game. I personally don't understand the apprehension to the idea of pointing out something that happens to every player at least once. And it's not like it doesn't happen to Survivors, either. I mean, most Survivor players can understand the pressure of trying to not screw up and become a burden to a team, the pressure of trying to loop the Killer, the pressure of trying to escape, etc. So I really don't understand why it's controversial to say that Killers go through something similar, even if the pressure is different.
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A lot of this happens to both sides, but I'd still argue that Killer takes it more to heart. Survivors will always be pissed about diminishing returns when it comes to gameplay, especially post 6.1.0. But I've never seen Survivors complain about endgame chat or being smacked on hook or bled out in the same way that Killers describe the Survivor equivalent of the same behavior.
You really would believe that t-bagging at the gates will trigger an episode, and I've never fully been able to understand why. The stress to perform makes sense, but I really think it's more egocentric. Like every loss, micro or macro, is a mental wound so severe it feels physical. Which sounds really silly to claim, but I genuinely see the same complaints with that level of severity all of the time. Like having a balanced game would be harmful.
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Because when the Killer who failed to kill all the Survivors gets held hostage by the end of the game, repeatedly being given only two choices (waste their time and wait the EGC timer out or come to the gate for the final spit in the face), not to mention continously receiving verbal abuse in endgame chat, in their Steam profile, in their DMs — this is NOT the experience they come for. Moreover, the amount of times players get abused simply for playing the Killer Survivors don't like is overwhelming. Survivors get out of their way to act like trash in game, then sprinkle some more abuse in the post-game chat while excusing their actions with "That's what you get for playing Plague//Skull Merchant//Ghoul!"
The difference? Survivors get all the handholding they ask for (my Survivor games have never been easier and I couldn't care less about trying hard or relying on SWF), while Killers are told to suck it up and endure being Survivors' punching bags — unless they literally spend most of their productive hours in the game like it's their job.
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Being harassed is never okay, especially over a video game.
As for some of the other things in your comment, first - while I doubt this is a 100% fix to the issue of Survivor's staying at the Exit Gate, I do have a trick that makes Survivors not bother waiting - I simply don't show up. If the Exit Gate has been opened, and I've looked everywhere for them, I assume they're at the gate, so I don't bother going over there. Usually, this makes them just leave. Not every time, but most of the time. I find that, when dealing with bullies, the best option is to not give them a reaction - all players like that want to do is get a rise out of you, so if you don't let them, they won't bother.
However, you also mentioned that Survivors receive "handholding," this is simply not true. The game is currently Killer sided, with Killers receiving perk after perk that allows them to completely negate things Survivors can do. If your Survivor games have been easy, either you're better than you're giving yourself credit for or your MMR is not at the level where you encounter decent-to-pro level Killers. Regardless, one person's experience is not the whole truth of the situation. For example, I'm really good with Killers many others call weak - should my skill alone determine the power of those Killers? Of course not. By that same token, just because you have an easy time with Survivor does not mean the role is having its hand held.
In fact, while these can and are greatly inflated due to various factors (slugging, tunneling, camping, letting the Survivors leave, etc.) you can look at the average escape rate and average kill rate for proof. You can also look at the patches from the previous few years - yes, some Killers have been nerfed here or there, but for the most part, the patches have favored and benefitted Killers, while rarely benefitting Survivors.
Now, if you're struggling with your Killer matches, odds are that you've gotten to the point that the matchmaking thinks you're that good, or the matchmaking simply doesn't like you (lord knows we all know the feeling), but it doesn't mean the Survivor role is filled with really skilled, extremely toxic players. The majority of Survivor players, frankly, aren't skilled enough to pull off having everyone, if anyone, escape consistently.
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The source he used for that 70% stat is very old, from when SWF first released. Using the same stat distribution, you encounter solo Q players in 82% of matches, and 51% of players play solo Q, and 49% of players play in a 2/3/4 stack SWF. It's a misleading claim because it makes it sound like 70% of matches are against 4 stack, which is definitely not true, but killer mains act like it's true.
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They're all saying the game has gotten tougher for Killers and Escapes are easier for Survivors.But there's an alternative explanation to the survivor and killer experience. There are lots of new players (by the standards of the community) who are playing killer. They've probably worked themselves out of the beginner MMRs but aren't nearly as strong as the other killers in the broader, higher MMR ranges.
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I must have missed your response here, but I'll expand:
The kate hasn't touched a gen all game and is trailing the killer with a flash light, could be a 4 man, could be solo queue but it's all too common.
Well, the game is designed this way. The game largely used to be "casual" or "party game" where, sure, people could mess around and have fun, but in the past 3 years or so has been switching over to a more "serious PvP/competitive" mindset. There's still an ongoing debate in the community as to whether this is a "casual experience ruined by hyper-competitive balance and mentality", or "a competitive PvP experience that is ruined by people who don't take it seriously."
And when I say the game is designed this way, I'm not just talking about the lack of any competitive features. In basically any other competitive PvP game, you know your teammates kit, can natively (through the game) actively communicate through voice, text, or pings, and in some games you can even see your teammates' cooldowns. Those are all lacking features in DbD, for better or worse.
But on top of all that, and separately, the game actively encourages, rewards, and incentivizes this kind of gameplay. In most games, the "daily" quests boil down to "play the game" or "win", or "complete X by trying". So you can complete those for rewards simply by doing what you would normally do: play the game. And, for killer, this is largely the case.
DbD quests for survivors are at least half the time "choose between completing this quest or winning", or "actively throw the game". The literal design of the game encourages some of this behavior.
There has been no base-kit buffs after 6.1.0 that why I am so obviously focused on perks.
Uh. This is just flat-out completely wrong. Even if, if, I accept that you're talking exclusively about things that affect all killers, it's still wrong. And maybe I haven't gone into that list in this thread, but here's why focusing on perks is completely missing the point:
Even if I limit the list to only your extremely limited, blinders-on, "it has to involve all killers or it doesn't count" viewpoint, you still have: hooks respawning, base kit kick buffed to 5%, bloodlust buffs, survivors spawning together by default, base kit lightborn on locker grabs, map offerings effectively deleted, maps made smaller, pallets and tiles weakened, tile and pallet spawn logic reworked to prevent chaining, entire maps and realms reworked.
And that just is a partial list off the top of my head, limited to things that affect "every" killer, post-6.1, because you put those artificial restrictions in place. That doesn't include the fact that they've been touching 2-4 killers individually basically every major patch to improve their kits, ranging from simple QoL buffs, to partially making add-ons base kit, to making entire Iri add-ons base kit. It also completely ignores anything nerfed on the survivor side either.
And all of that contributes to increased kill rates that have successfully been driven higher over that same time span.
Most of the time, when people focus on killer perks, it's because they don't want to look at any of those details, because regression is the only thing they desperately want. It amounts to "well, all of that is nice, and don't ever consider taking any of it away, but give back gen kick meta levels of regression or we won't be happy".
Freddy being the most deadly killer in the game only backs up what I am saying about kill rates, EVERYONE knows he's not strong. Actually feeding into him being strong means you think a beyond whatever killer is worth anything strength wise. Do you really think freddy is stronger than nurse, blight, artist and P-head? You'd have to be essentially a silver player to actually agree with that statement.
This is partly what I mean by cherry picking. I never said Freddy was "strong" or "the best", because that's all subjective. I use the wording "deadly" because we have that data: In every MMR, every rank, and every level of play, right now, Freddy is topping the kill rate stats at around 70%. And I say "deadly" also because I can recognize that isn't a complete picture, nor does it make him an easy kit to use. But the roughly 70% kill rate is hard data, and not subjective.
But for a killer who is generally considered "weak" and "M1", it's interesting that people are producing these results. There's obviously something else going on there, but it's not just a "skill issue" or "survivors aren't bothering to learn counterplay", since it's the same thing at "top MMR" also.
But if you can take a "weak" "M1" killer and kill 70% of the survivors you face, there's not really a ton of room to argue that killers are overall struggling, or in a bad place. The kill rate is an indicator, and specifically one that BHVR uses to balance. You can't just ignore it completely, and it's healthy to acknowledge that there are other factors as well.
I seriously doubt anyone who says "kill rates don't matter", because those same people would burn the forums down in the rates were reversed right now, and killers were pulling about 40% kill rates instead of 60-70%. In fact, if you continue with this line of thinking, I'll just have to assume you're perfectly ok with reducing kill rates. Y'know, since they don't matter.
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This is exactly what I'm talking about though. The role you're less invested in will always be "easier", regardless of what the actual balancing looks like. You're going to be far less inconvenienced if you don't care. Likewise Survivors let each other down or turn on each other all the time and Killers bring the trial to a stand still so often that it's actively harming the game. Yet despite all of that, abuse is a very heavy word. It implies something much deeper than a game being unfair and annoying.
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No it's not. When survivors are sacrificed, they leave the game. That's it. They can go next, move on. There is literally nothing to care about, especially when they have a way out of every trap Killer can set for them — and can gang up against Killer.
Killers, however, can't go next when there is even one monkey dancing at the exit gate and demanding attention. They are forced to either wait it out or do the walk of shame and get humiliated one last time — because Survivors aren't happy with just escaping, not until they tbag, then call the Killer a dog or trash in endgame chat, and then stalk their profile and suggest self-harm because they're "so bad". If that's not abuse…well, news flash, it is.
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It's not abuse. You can private your steam profile, you can turn off chat, you can avoid gates, and most of all you can turn off the game if it's causing you genuine anguish. Every PVP game has smack talk and banter, so every time you decide to get invested in one (especially one as tilted as DBD) you are exposing yourself to that. Again, Survivor deals with all of the same stuff. Are we going to pretend that Cannibal's Claudette mask or Survivors being targeted for pride charms aren't/weren't a thing either? I'd wager those were more harmful overall than getting bagged at the gates. But they're not complained about the same way and likely never will be.
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One night I 4k team that wasnt sef only one duo and one guy from duo had 10 k hours in the game. What killer like ghostface needs is onorganized team if you get team like 3 swf that are constantly revealing you forcing you to be only m1 then your best chance is tunnel one out asap as hard and fast as you can (you will have hight chance if they will try to help each other and dont die if they are swf so tunneling one can help you create preasure). Ghostface is only good if you can 99 survivors and sneak on them to get fast downs or hit and run plus stalk them for later if he is forced to be m1 than he is supper weak and smart teams know that same with dissarming trappers trap (they know he has nothing without traps and he cant fo anything same with ghostface when you reveal him constantly). I had 4k with him against good survivors but xou need stalks on them and good perks to buy you precious time that you loosing when stealthinh around on map corners, he is weakest around last gen or gates when are survivors playing on smaler area.
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Tbh most toxic are swfs they have easier time to shame the killer way he played and survivors in general (they feel like victims and think killers cant be victim, more people on one side against one means higher chance to be toxic). When you rush gens against killer with chase build he will be like that was fast but if you slugg against swf that has sabo builds and flashbang they will cry how toxic you are and ruining their fun.
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Blight is hard to doge when he knows like his power works and he knows shoulderflick this trick will make blight hit prettymuch anything and leave almost no counter for survivor. Blights kit offers great mobility and antiloop thats why he is still second best killer in the game and his place hasnt change even when hug tech was removed from him, his op addons were nerfed or ghoul arrival he was still at his place. Ghoul is just easier but blight kit had more options in the chase and if you master him there arent many teams exept were good swfs to beat you with meta build.
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"You can get attacked or mugged at the streets, such is life, so each time you decide to interact, you are exposing yourself to that. If you don't want to be harassed, don't leave your house because you will get harassed and that's on you. We absolutely don't have measures and laws against the people who decide to attack or discriminate against you. You're not being abused, you're just taking the risks and you're the only one responsible"
This is how it sounds.
Also, given that BHVR removed the Claudette mask from Cannibal to punish such behavior, these complaints actually were taken into account. Same goes for ensuring anti-tunneling, anti-camping, and anti-slugging. However, the Killers are just supposed to "suck it up" and be humiliated.
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But again, you're comparing it to something very heavy. Do you truly think that a social interaction, that you have full agency in, is comparable to being attacked or mugged in the streets?
That's the point though. People were being actively discriminated against and it feels as if that had less weight thrown behind it than the complaints of getting bagged at the gates. Why is that?
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Theoretically, people have full agency in not getting attacked or mugged on the streets — not going out to the streets, not provoking the interactions they can't handle. However, for some reason this led to pushback and the term "victim blaming". I wonder why? /s
That's the point though. People were being actively discriminated against and it feels as if that had less weight thrown behind it than the complaints of getting bagged at the gates. Why is that?The only reason why it feels as if that had less weight thrown behind it is because BHVR actually addressed it and did something about it. There is nothing more to complain about. People keep complaining about tbgagging because it hasn't been addressed and players have to deal with this issue consistently while being told that, in fact, they are the problem.
There is a reason why most multiplayer games work on measures to punish or negate most of BM during gameplay — because they are selling positive experience to new players.
Therefore if new players join the game, get treated like dirt and are met with a response like "Yes, the community sucks big time and your opponents will see you as subhuman if you lose to them, and it's honestly your fault for deciding to have some enjoyable experience in this game, learn to love the abuse, lmao" — it's not a viable game model and these players won't be retained.
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The problem is the pressure to perform and look good without being made fun of if you lose, which let's face it… some Survivor players REALLY like to do.
This is not just survivors that do this. This is killers as well. You need hump videos? Killers still do it today. GGEZ they still do it, threats and general over the top ____ yourself as well.
This is not relegated to only coming from survivors.
Ive had survivors gang up on other survivors as well in terms of "performance and looking good" and had to defend them from themselves as killer lol.
Its not this whole only killer is getting bullied by survivors story. I have footage and ticket submissions of this as well.In comparison I can count the number of times a Killer has been a miserable little jerk to my friends and I on one hand.
Not my experience. Not the friend part of this, I play soloQ only. But there is a pretty even split from what I can tell from the "miserable little jerk" perspective on who is saying what to whom.
Obviously there is 4 survivors and 1 killer per match.
So you have to math this as a 1:1 ratio for each interaction.Killer is always a lonely role (unless you're playing an AI Killer or something), so the feeling of several Survs backed up by their friends all mocking YOU specifically for not performing well enough or doing something they deem unfair?
Lonely role? Thats an odd way to describe your situation when you are against several opponents. Like you arent the "victim" in your matches as a role.
This is a pvp game its not that deep. When you 3v1 or 2v1 in games or sports you dont describe yourself as "lonely".
I dont call MJ "lonely" when he charges the rim 3v1 and breaks through guards and STILL scores.
Im not sure why you are using "lonely" when describing killer play in an asymmetrical video game. Its a very victim and depressing way of describing something.Because try as some people might to dismiss those feelings in others, even if you don't react… that feeling still hurts a bit. It still gets under your skin and sits in your brain. It's actually psychologically painful and, if actual harassment is involved, even actively harmful. There's actually studies on both ladder anxiety in gaming and how online harassment in gaming can cause psychological effects that can damage a person, this stuff is real.
The other thing that causes this anxiety? The game itself. The game encourages always playing to 3-4k. The game gives increasingly better results in the endscreen for killing more Survivors. The community as a whole has taken 3k+ = win to its logical conclusion and actively blames any player who cannot meet that consistently. But, it isn't always the player's fault if they lose. Sometimes the map is bad, sometimes their perks were outmatched, sometimes the other side was simply BETTER. But the community always seems to infer "lose more = less skill" when these players ask for some reassurance, so of course they feel left out and like they're the problem.
After a while all this pressure to perform and bad experience with Survivors that actually DID mock them for losing, it takes a toll. Some quit. Some play less frequently. Some chase an endless dragon of 4ks they cannot possibly keep forever. If they stay long enough and find their niche they grow out of it. But the fact it occurs AT ALL and then when they go "hey this feels bad" people in the community dogpile them for it? Shameful. Just shameful, no wonder Killer players sometimes doubt their own abilities, grow a perfectionist complex, and play sweaty. Both the game and the community go out of their way to try and scare Killer players off by any means it can.
No one should be harassed, I’ve reported people myself.
You have a couple options though:
1) if playing Killer for you or whomever this is describing ; is causing that much anxiety and pain. Like real world mental health reactions at THIS level, it might be time to take a break.
You have to set boundaries in these kinds of things. Not re-feed them and blow it off like it wont happen again, it WILL happen again, its a PVP online videogame. There is no perfect online game or perfect report system. Thats just the reality of things.
And again, this is not just survivors, I have had a pretty even split of this kind of stuff come from both sides.
Report anything over the top that is beyond game taunting; and then move on to the next match.
2) Another option you have that fixes most of this is just closing the chat. Problem solved you dont even see it. Its available to everyone.
Last though and kind of important:If someone is that emotionally shaken by how strangers in a video game perceive them, it’s worth stepping back and asking:
Why do you care so much?Unless you’re trying out for a pro team or entering tournaments, this is a hobby.
Videogames are supposed to be fun, not a defining characteristic on your self-worth. If you’re not having fun anymore, that’s your mind telling you to reassess what you're doing and why.0 -
You can be sarcastic about it, but it's still true. My argument is that Killer players tend to add a harder mental/emotional slant to issues with the game and here you are comparing it to getting mugged and now victim blaming. I don't know what else could solidify that argument more.
I could agree with the point of BM, but even that is very disconnected. We have the equivalent of spawn camping left almost entirely unaddressed in the game (aside from band-aid fixes); objective camping has been addressed, but only in favor of one side; and the hill we're meant to die on is t-bagging, which the recipient of has the choice to ignore or to punish? Without a lot of resistance? You mentioned communication as well, which is a little slippery because it's out of BHVR's hands if it happens outside of the game. But it's perfectly avoidable both in-game and on Steam. Idk about XBL or PSN.
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This is not relegated to only coming from survivors.
Yep.
Ever since I first started playing DBD I've encountered toxic survivors AND toxic killers.
Toxic players exist on both sides. The only reason people think survivors are more toxic than killers is because every match of DBD has 4 survivors and 1 killer, meaning you're more likely to encounter a toxic survivor.
If the game was 4v4, you would see them in equal measure.
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Because your logic can be applied to these scenarios. This is why I am comparing it to them — to show how much sense it doesn't make.
and the hill we're meant to die on is t-bagging, which the recipient of has the choice to ignore or to punish?
The recipient doesn't really have a choice to punish t-bagging — because most of the time tbaggers are doing it in the safety of the exit gate. The choice is to waste your time or to be spat at.
The reason why Killer players add a harder mental/emotional slant is the same reason why Killer anxiety is mentioned. People would like to play and make mistakes without getting abused. However, it's too much to ask.
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I don't understand why DBD is a PVP game, and why did people decide that at all?
Did the developers even say that they would make it a PvP game?
In it, each map is generated randomly, sometimes it will give you 5 pallets, sometimes 2 HGs, sometimes idiotic or overbuffed tiles
What kind of PVP game is this, where it is not your playing skill that decides, but randomness?
In Dota 2, mountains are also generated instead of trees from time to time?
In CS, instead of boxes, trees or stones can appear from time to time?
In the LoL, for example, there are no "addons" that make one character into another? Or am I missing something?
So the Nurse can become 4.4 or 4.6 killer instead of use blinks
/ Shape can kill instantly or see auras
Tournaments for this game have restrictions on the use of perks, offerings, addons and killers (I think the reason is clear)
Even if in a tournament everyone plays on the same map, which is more similar to a PVP game - the random spawn of all this crap that I wrote about above is still random
Plus DBD is a game where you don't have a class, except in 2v8, because of this you can create a super fun / random / boring / sweaty build
P.S.
And as far as I remember, CS and Dota have voice chat, whereas in this game you have 2 emotions, which God knows what they mean and what message they carry in different situations-2 -
One-hundred-thousand percent. 2v8 brings out those really gnarly boyfriend-girlfriend duos. They're really annoying when you stumble upon them in solo, but they're a whole different beast as Killers.
I don't know what to say anymore, so uh… blessed be )O(
It is PVP, but at its core it's very much a casual game. The game peaks when you have 5 players that don't take the game very seriously and wanna mess around. Custom games with 4 other friends where you pass around Killer has to be a blast.
The issue is that for years now, it's been balanced as if it's a competitive, tourney-level game and it's not nor will it ever be. You can't have a successful nor fair team game with such limited communication and resources for team play; consistent ranking with such heavy RNG (not like ranks exist anyway); or a reliable MMR system with so many variables at play. It's just not that kind of game.
DBD is essentially the spirit of Mario Party, the joy of hide and go seek, and the roster of Fortnite. But it's treated as if it's League or DOTA.
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But these aren't new players saying this. It's long term Killer Mains like Otzdarva and MintSkull. It's even brought in Survivor mains, long term ones, like Scott Jund and Ayrun.
And they are all saying Killer seems to be harder, or Survivor seems to be easier. Now, they don't all agree it IS harder for Killer/easier for Surv, but they are all saying it FEELS that way. If these big names are saying it, then what does that feel like for Average Joe Deebeedee?
What is the explanation for this when BIG NAME creators well out of the softcap or beginner MMR are saying this?
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And surely that means that updated data would show SWFs being more popular than ever, because there are many more players. Your point is moot. Reminder, this doesn't just count 4stacks. It's 3 and 2 stacks as well. Most of these groups are not good, but they are all groups that exist, probably about 70% of the time. Maybe more than that now because again, MANY more players. I know I for one almost always play SWF, that is, with someone else.
There is no "Killer Mains acting like it's true" because the statistics do not lie. It's just true. The majority of Survs probably are playing with at least one other person, because it's fun to play with friends. Whether or not they are good, well…
I'm sorry you got a bad team. Ghostface does indeed struggle against really good teams. However, even if you have a team, it's not likely they'll be GOOD. Just because 70% of games are SWFs doesn't mean they're all GOOD SWFs. Many aren't.
Frankly I think it's just time to remove the chatbox feature entirely, the good it can cause is outweighed by the sheer toxicity of the bad. And profiles should be hidden by default.
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Well can you blame Killer for taking it to heart? They're against four other people all saying they suck. That feels really bad, that feels like bullying, that feels like being ganged up on.
If a group of people is saying you suck, you must suck right? That's a logical fallacy of course, but the brain makes that connection. It's a psychological wound that can and does lead to self doubt - and that's what causes that anxiety.
It's a real, real problem, and IDK how we solve it.
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Calling people slurs for their pride charms because the Survivor feels tunnelled isn't abusive? Being told to end yourself because the Survivors are mad they lost isn't abusive? Someone telling me they hope my mother gets cancer and dies because they're salty they lost isn't abusive? Stalking profiles to leave nasty comments or send nasty messages isn't abusive? Being told to go do horribly inappropriate things with a dog because I won a round as a weak Killer isn't abusive? Being called things like "pathetic" and "sad" and "a baby" and "awful" and all these negative words because the Survivors are being sore winners rubbing it in isn't abusive?
It sure is when Killers do it, so why isn't it when Survivors do?
This sort of behavior, from either side, is beyond the pale stuff you would never say to anyone on the street. That's not "smack talk and banter", it's verbal abuse. It's abusive.
This is abuse and the brain reacts like it's abuse. Go read any study on online harassment and what it does to people.
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Honestly that'd probably be for the best. While I understand the point of communicating, the community is a tad too toxic for it to make sense in keeping it. As for making profiles private by default, I wholeheartedly agree. While I don't care if someone looks at my profile and think that pointing out my stats would hurt my feeling before finding out I don't allow strangers to message me on PS5 because of how often I get hit with those thirst trap spam messages, making their toxic behavior pointless - I understand that I am not everyone. Words can hurt people, and I don't think I need to bring up the statistics to show why.
I know some people say "Just turn off the game," but that doesn't really undo the emotional damage. People need to remember that, for every adult who plays the game, there are still teenagers and other children playing. Should they be? No, but that doesn't mean they don't or won't.
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Hello and Blessed Be friend! )O(
I agree the game is definitely a casual game at its core that waaayyyy too many people have decided is competitive, creating a rat race between Devs and the players to make it more competitive. This is why we still have "weak Killers" - they're not actually weak for casual play, they're fine for casual play. Just not comp play.
This game isn't competitive in spirit and never will be. It's too RNG to be truly comp.
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A game that has MMR-based matchmaking, a ranking system, years of balance patches, developer Q&As about perk/meta balance, and constant feedback loops with the community, that’s not a “casual” game at its core at all.
You don’t go through that much effort to maintain fairness and responsiveness if you’re building a chill party game.
It might not be truly competitive in the strictest esports sense (like CS or LoL), but it’s definitely intended to be competitive at its core. You dont have all this development and balance over the years on something that is "casual at its core"
So calling DBD a “casual game at its core” feels like rewriting the game’s own structure and trajectory. It’s asymmetrical PvP of course it invites competition. That’s literally the genre.
Examples of truly casual games with a pvp untertone are like.
•Mario party mini games
•Wii sportsIf DBD were truly a “casual party game,” you wouldn’t have daily posts demanding perk nerfs, map reworks, or killer/survivor buffs. Casual games don’t live and die on meta shifts and patch notes. Its a live service PvP game, whether people want to admit it or not.
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My problem with ghostface is if the team you play againsed is good and will keep revealing you then you are killer with no power, he is obe of the most hardest killers to keep your power hooked people can reveal you, downed can reveal you everyone can reveal you and as game progress the area gets smaller and smaller which means more survivors are around you and situations like one of 3 genst you have to pretect (survivors last gen) is in the open pushed by two survivors prerunning and revealing you covered behind objects with third person so you have no idea from where (reveal time is very short and thers delay which makes it even more frustrating). In endgame you cant use your power to secure kill as other killers like mayers around hooked survivor or imagine situation gates are powered you downed one survivor he is under palett in the open and other guy is there to save him, best option would be to mark that saving guy and make him drop then pick the downed but can you when theres two survivors revealing you so you must loop normaly knowing he will drop and the pick him up before you can run him and hit him and his other teammate will be near gate offering another bodyblock, ghostface is unique killer who offers best stealth gameplay in my opinion but his power is very easy to counter and if you think you are 99 then bodyblock him while hooking force him to hit you or just casualy look at him and he wont do much without strong perks and sddond like driving license or that purple knife that should be basekit(5% haste when you mark survivor). Thats why he is d- tier and even his mains saying that normaly.
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Mario Party might be the worst comparison if youre trying to paint dbd as fun little party game.
Dota and League didnt have people blister their hands while playing, Mario Party 1 or 2 did. Nintendo had to offer gloves.
I had it happen to a friend too, its not just internet trivia for me. Pople have fun in MP, but theyre definitely playing to win.
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1: Scott isn't a survivor main, he's a killer main. He had a video out saying the opposite of this, that he hasn't been seeing any harder games. He had another video that said this might change with the upcoming patch if it goes through with the changes as listed.
2: You're missing the explanation for the survivor side. There are a lot more killer players who don't have thousands of hours yet. Some of them have likely managed to get up above the softcap while survivors are lagging behind (given that killers can gain more MMR per match than survivors).
I've noticed a lot of killers, both in playing and watching streamers, who don't seem nearly as cracked as they were a few months ago. This isn't a surprise given the influx of players around the killer role.
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Sure, but why is it so dire? Why should it take priority over game balance?
It's not abusive in my opinion because it's purely voluntary and has no greater impact beyond the game (i.e. one's quality of life). It might exacerbate existing problems, but it's not the sole cause of them.
Although given that stance, I would agree that it could fall under the category of S/H if you willingly expose yourself to things you know you cannot handle, despite having countless measures to soften your exposure or to cut it off entirely.
Also my point with the charms and the mask is that those players were actively being discriminated against and seemed less upset about it as a whole than players getting bagged at the gates. At least from my experience.
Agreed.
I said it has the spirit of Mario Party, which is to say that it's like a fun game between friends. It's not something you're supposed to sweat over or take to heart. That is at its core and is why the game suffers so much when players don't respect each other.
Now whether the devs or the players treat it that way is something else entirely.
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Simple: If Killers feel the game is unfair enough Survivors can bully them, that would suggest a game balance issue right?
Also, when things like THIS death of a child and THIS study about how online harassment in gaming affects people are a thing, I'd say it's definitely dire enough for BHVR to do something about it in their game.I could list you more resources about this. But we'd literally be here all day. Basic psychology and multiple studies say you are wrong - the brain views this behavior as abuse and as painful, this behavior is abusive, and this behavior has a real effect on peoples' wellbeing. And it usually strikes minority groups, young people, and already vulnerable people the hardest.
It's NOT just "gamertalk" or "friendly bashing" when someone calls you slurs or threatens to harm you. It's 100% NOT just silly banter when you don't know what someone may have been through, and no. The solution is not "just don't play PvP games." The solution is coming down hard on it and treating it like the abusive behavior it is. Abusive behavior should never be tolerated towards anyone, anywhere, ever. As a victim of sustained and vicious online harassment myself that nearly led to my own suicide attempt when I was 16 years old, I can and will die on this hill.
This sort of behavior has a real, tangible, serious effect on people. People have been harassed to suicide in online games. People have been given real mental disorders such as PTSD and anxiety disorder over harassment in online games. Occasionally, harassment online has spilled over into physical aggression in the real world including murders outside of games.
It's for the good of everyone overall mentally and physically if BHVR takes it seriously.
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Those links are about the effects on children. Like I said before, we're adults with personal autonomy and the likelihood of it creating anything new is low. It might exacerbate issues, but that's not something that is anyone else's responsibility. You have multiple ways of opting out of these situations without even leaving the game. There's no voice chat and you can prevent players from communicating with you over text. There's even an anonymous mode. So again, I fail to see how it's abuse or what could be done that isn't already being done.
At some point we have to come back down to Earth and remember that bagging at the gates and smack talk in endgame chat is what spawned this conversation. Equating that to extremely abusive behavior, which is being implied if we're pulling real world physical harm to one's self or others into the equation, is more than a little wild. In my opinion.
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Oh, would you like the effects on adults?
Here you go. It's a video about how people of color experience a lot more harassment in gaming online. These are adult people experiencing this.
Here's a video on how one in ten female adult gamers feel suicidal over online abuse in video games.
Here's a study by ADL about how 80% of adult gamers have experienced some form of online harassment in gaming, and the effects of it.
Here's an article showing some interesting facts about the kinds of minority gamers targeted in online games by this kind of harassment.
And oh look - here's a PubMed article that comes from actual psychologists discussing the effects of hateful and abusive online harassment in gaming, and why that's an issue.
Again, I could uncover MORE articles, videos, and research on how harassment in online gaming is a form of abuse and often includes hate speech too. Still convinced it's just a problem for children?
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You can keep going, but my points stand.
- Killers present a disproportional amount of emotional arguments about the game, despite the reach or severity of said arguments.
- It is up to the individual player to determine when something in a game is too much for them to handle, especially as adults.
- DBD utilizes a host of features to prevent negative communication, including the ability to shut down communication and to privatize one's identity entirely.
And finally
- Nothing will ever be enough to satiate the wounded egos of said players.
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You do realize I am not at all arguing about a quick teabag at a pallet, right? Nobody is harmed by that. I am STRICTLY talking about in game taunting that then spirals into things like stalking, slurs, and actual suggestion that the player it's aimed at end their life. You know, things any sane human would see as unacceptable beyond the pale behavior. I have been arguing the negative effects of that this whole time and you are still doubling down on the idea that somehow, demonstrable abuse isn't "real abuse" because… why? Nobody gets physically hurt? You do know that abuse isn't just physical right?
At this point I am forced to assume you yourself are either an abuser, or an abuser sympathizer. I have provided evidence and you STILL don't care. In fact you keep doubling down insisting it's "Killer mains being emotional over ego".
Dude. Dude. Look at what you're saying here, you're literally defending people stalking others, spewing hate speech, and driving others to suicide over how they played in a video game. You do understand you're defending some absolutely awful stuff here, right? Is it somehow worse when Killers do it to Survivors than if Survivors do it to Killers? It would seem so judging by how you keep doubling down on this idea that harassment is "just a silly bit of gamer banter" that "only wounds egos".Killers are played by human beings. All Killer players are not narcissistic ego robots just because you have had bad experiences with a few, any more than all Survivor players are little gremlins who want to hurt others. And NO players in ANY game ever deserve to be harassed simply for playing a video game, I don't care what tactics they use or how hard they win or lose.
This is a truly disturbing position you're take about human beings. TRULY disturbing and troubling. If you said this about anyone else or any other group, you'd be rightfully shunned for it, but because it's the antagonist role in a video game somehow it's okay? Are you hearing yourself right now?
Your points do not stand, because they're abhorrent points that defend harassment online, the effects of which I have demonstrated with evidence multiple times over. Your first point paints all Killer players as emotionally immature and therefore acceptable targets, your second fails to understand the basic limit between what is "too far" in general - forget what it means for a given person, some things are always TOO FAR - and your third doesn't take into account how the harassment can occur outside of the game, in a place where BHVR can do nothing about it. And your fourth is just another particularly callous Us versus Them trying in vain to gin up sympathy for your argument by strawmanning Killer players as a whole as "egotistical narcissists" who just wanna hurt "poor widdle Survivor Mains" all the time instead of human beings playing a friggin' video game to have a good time.
You can't be convinced and aren't arguing in good faith. I'm glad you have the privilege in life to never have to have experienced hatred online over your gender, race, ability, or anything else. I'm happy you're so privileged you have never had a mental illness, disability, or any other sort of thing you can't control occur in your life. That isn't most people.
I'm leaving this argument before I actually get angry, because everything you're saying is so incredibly gross in how it defends actual online harassment, it's starting to raise my blood pressure.
Absolutely shame on you.
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If you wanna blow it up way beyond the scope of the argument, bring in things that haven't happened with DBD, and then get mad at yourself then be my guest.
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ahahahh this person got 7 vote ups saying nurse didn't really get nerfed going from basic attacks on blink to special and all her add-ons beside a few being worse. Blights add-ons as a blight main got gutted in terms of power and freddy is not strong. What am I witnessing. Alch ring, c33 or iri tag are all stronger on their own than any combination of current blight add-ons.
It's so hard to take this forum seriously when I see these replies being upvoted 7 times and downvoted 1 time. We really think blight is the same strength after the add-on changes? Did we think about it for 2 seconds? Did the people who upvoted this banned individual think for two seconds before upvoting or have they ever even learned blight? Probably not.
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I don't actually don't care if kill rates go down, I am an anti-killer player at this point because majority have such a bot play style. There are just far too many things in dbd that make these numbers irrelevant as someone who tracks and understands WR/BR/PR to an extremely high level in games where numbers matter.
Again, freddy isn't good. There is no world where his low skill floor makes him have a 70% kill rate. His slowdown is bad, his tp is ok and his chase is ok, WE BOTH KNOW THIS. Also I never said killers are overall struggling they are most definitely not, the point is even when survivors were objectively op with god meta they still had less than a 50% escape rate in every mmr. Old nurse and blight didn't have close to a high enough pickrate for a 4 man swf to make sense having less than a 50% WR in that meta in particular when that patches stats were released.I have literally never kicked a gen and other than ruin and pops previous nerf I've never disagreed with a regression perks nerfs. My opinion on that topic is not skewed by the fact that I was maining blight for a long time as I mained several very different killers before and after him.
The top killers have been objectively nerfed, the killers that are buffed up until p-head have not been top tier. Killer meta isn't even close to top 3 strongest perks right now.
It's unfortunate but due to the playerbase this game will not have viable numbers to balance off of unless they are extreme. There are an infinite number of changes the devs have made that didn't make the game more balanced they just felt like it or the infinite number of casual players(I say this cautiously because good players are not good at this game in respect to most games) cried about something they don't know anything about.
Whatever though, freddy is op and the B- tier killers getting nerf and buff adjustments at the same time equate to a killer buff.
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Only way Killer is "hard" to play is because you need to be efficient. You are playing 1v4 and your result is fully upon you. In comparison with survivor, you can't slack and play lazy, they will run away.
On the other hand as survivor you can be carried by team and play like potato.But since Kaneki and Wesker release, on those two you can faceroll your keyboard and still get kills. I checked few streams and honestly don't understand why those killers even exist. It's so easy to the point it's boring to watch.
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