http://dbd.game/killswitch
Why does behavior almost always release perks in an underpowered state?
This repeats itself for years now. The last strong perk was MFT and one other decent perk was friends till the end. Most of the others aren‘t worth running.
Let‘s look at the The walking dead perks as an example: Party pallet perk really bad, because of how limited it is. Window vault stun perk, also too limited. The teamwork perks kinda pointless because of the activation condition. The unbreakable perk is alright, but not great either. The anti tunnel/chase me perk is okay, but I don‘t see reason to ever take that, probably for YouTubers.
From a business perspective I don’t understand it either, why behavior doesn‘t make them strong or at least good? It would most certainly bring them more money. They don‘t even need to be overpowered but good which most of the new ones aren‘t. I for my part haven‘t bought any of the new licensed survivors for a very long time because I realized by the time those perks received buffs I get them from the shrine without spending money.
Another aspect is that behavior takes way too long to buff perks and when they add more and more perks to the need buffs list, they won‘t ever reach a point where most perks are usable.
What are your thoughts on the topic?
Comments
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I would agree that new perks often end up too weak.
I assume this is a product of CoH and MfT metas, which forever scarred the devs and the trauma keeps them from releasing strong perks.
The community outcries don't help either.(sometimes they are justified, sometimes not)
In the last year and a half, Orela Rose is the only character with 3 good perks. The rest has at least one awful one, sometimes even all 3.
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they literally just dropped conviction thats new meta for anti slugging.
before that they released shoulder the burden that's incredibly overpowered against tunnelling even if you dont intend to do it.
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Eh, I honestly prefer Perks being too weak over Perks being Cashgrabs. Even tho, for this Chapter they would not have needed to make Cashgrab-Perks which get nerfed a month afterwards like CoH or Mettle of Man since TWD is big enough of a license to carry it on its own.
But yeah, Perks in general, especially Survivor Perks, are just outright bad. This includes the TWD-Perks, you will not really see those outside of Adepts after a while. Killer-Perks have the advantage that they can be good on certain Killers, but even there I would say that the quality of Perks did drop, because usally you got a weak Killer Perk, a situationally good on certain Killers-Perk and a good Perk. But this also stopped.
But Survivor Perks are usually never worth taking, which results in the Survivor Meta basically consisting of Perks which are at least 5 years old.
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Two good perks imo Rapid Response is garbage.
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- I say it's fine, we're used to this standard of "mediocre/situational" perks, or perks that MANDATORILY need other perks to be at least somewhat useful. However, I get annoyed when I hear the complaint in this forum that "Survivors always use the same 20 perks!!!" Guys, what do you expect? If mediocrity becomes the norm, players will adjust accordingly. It's not normal to see certain perks ONLY for adepts and then never again. For example, Orela, I ONLY see "do no harm" used, the other two I never, and I mean NEVER, see in a single game.
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very well said. thank you for your perspective
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I'd rather have weak perks that can be buffed later than op perks that take months to nerf. I do agree that out of the 6 perks we got, 5 are not worth running at all, but I hope they receive necessary buffs later on.
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It's a frustrating trend, for sure. Players will complain about a stale Survivor meta, but then something new like MFT comes along to shake that up and they'll complain about the new perk even more. I liked OG MFT because it was a solid alternative to the standard exhaustion perks. It was harder to get real value from than Sprint Burst or Lithe, but you wouldn't have known that from all the complaints about the perk. Of course, after the nerf everyone just went back to their usual old exhaustion perks and so nothing ever changes.
While I think BHVR should listen to player feedback, sometimes I wonder if they listen to the feedback of the loudest, grumpiest voices in the community a little too often. It's honestly really hard to imagine a strong perk like Sprint Burst being introduced today without it being nerfed into the ground within months because of negative feedback.
The only perk from the current chapter that interests me is Rick party pallet one, because it would fit in well with the kind of fun but gimmicky build I enjoy. I would probably run it with Smash Hit / Chem Trap / Any Means Necessary. But I'll wait until it's in the Shrine because I think the activation requirements are way too much for a single use party pallet.
Post edited by tjt85 on0 -
are you going to act like this if they add a new killer perk thats like old eruption or something? or are you going to acknowledge that stale healthy meta is better than new unhealthy meta
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I'm really glad none of you are working on perk design honestly.
I will be short, perks I use since Singularity chapter:
– On survivors:
Often: Drama, Clean Break, Do No Harm.
Sometimes: Troubleshooter (was my favourite back in the days), MFT, Scene Partner, Plot Twist, Chemical Trap, Lucky Star, Champion of Light, Mirrored Illusion (just to have giggles), Finesse, Eyes of Belmont, Shoulder the Burden
– On killers:
Genetic Limits, Rapid Brutality, both are very killer dependent.
Jagged Compass just to make whole SH mechanic works.
Unbound was on a list for two weeks before they nerfed it again.
So 14 perks on survivors and barely 3 on killers. Yeah, survivors are no doubt underdog here, clearly all their perks are bad.-2 -
I am glad they do this now as it shows they learned their lesson.
I suspect you probably did not experience the first version of DS (it got changed not long after I started), or even worse, the first version of Mettle Of Man, which was so unbelievably game breaking and unfair it is hard to believe it existed in that form.
Clearly BHVR know that adding insanely strong perks to the massive number of existing perks, has often dramatic and unpredictable consequences that create unintended metas and break the game. It results in them having to be nerfed or completely changed, or a whole lot of additional balancing work to compensate.
Thank God BHVR don't release super broken perks now
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That is the better solution. A Perk can always be changed, so releasing it weaker will not create any problems.
If you look at original Mettle of Man, original Decisive, original Made for This.. they were released in a brokenly overpowered state so they created a huge problem for a while.
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I agree, I don‘t want cash grab perks either that get nerfed immediately but I want useful content for the game and not filler content. Most of the newer perks are mostly filler content that aren‘t played by anyone.
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Maybe some have misunderstood what I tried to say. I don‘t want perks to be op (original DS, object…) or anything like that but something that is worth running and interesting when it releases. At the moment most of these perks are not worth running and need like 3 buffs before anyone plays them. I just want that we have more perk variety and not that whenever a new perk releases everyone says „Oh a new perk, well let‘s just stick with the old ones“.
Aside from that behavior is so damn slow at buffing perks that they will never be able to catch up to buff every perk that needs buffs. We currently still have insidious with only one effect that is not really good and calm spirit with the stupid slower chest opening/cleansing speed.
We should be hyped for new perks and get some that shake up the meta or how the game is played, but whenever a perk releases nobody really cares about them except some Youtubers for their content.
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Agree but the thing is people complain and then still buy the survivors so why would bhvr care ? They make money and weak perks don't cause problems it's a win-win, I skipped these ones because I'm just not gonna use any of the 6 perks, only last stand is okayish for my playstyle it's not worth it
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We've just had a string of very strong Killers added to the game that can make very good use of the best Killer perks that are already in the game. Personally, I think the current Killer design philosophy of creating high mobility Killers with multiple powers is also very unhealthy for the game but that's just my opinion.
Is the current meta really "healthy" as you say, or is it just a case of better the devil you know? I'm not really a meta gamer and I tend to run whatever I like. But you can't deny that seeing the same perks over and over again is something that a lot of players complain about.
As for MFT, I think it was the haste stacking with Hope that was the most unhealthy thing about it, not so much the perk itself. BHVR were going to do something about haste stacking, but players reacted badly to the planned changes so now we have to deal with Sonic the Hedgehog speed Clown, I guess. I get it, haste stacking builds are fun, but are they healthy? I'm not so sure.
So who gets to decide what's healthy or unhealthy? The players that shout the loudest about the things they don't like? Because to me, that's how it feels sometimes. Is being able to run 4 slowdown perks on a top teir Killer healthy? Is being a SWF on comms able to make the best use of certain perks (and get every info perk for free) healthy? Both of those are part of our stale but "healthy" meta right now. Everyone has different ideas about what's healthy or unhealthy for the game and the community will never be able to fully agree on what that balance is.
I'm just saying that sometimes I think the game might be better off if BHVR didn't always listen to us.
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I wouldn't agree that new perks are, on the whole, outright not worth running. I went back and checked on the wiki, and in order to find a survivor whose perks are all genuinely not worth running I had to go back to Haddie, and that's only with the caveat that it was on release since two of her perks got buffed since then.
On killer things are a little worse - you could honestly argue Kaneki's perks all aren't worth running, but prior to that I'd say Skull Merchant had the most recent all-bad crop on release - but there's still a good chunk of viable, decent perks across recent releases.Most new perks are actually in that camp. Most new perks are "fine", "decent", "worthwhile but not flashy". There's commentary to be made about that, sure, but it's important not to drift into acting like the perks are worse than they are.
Skipping TWD since those are very new and thus more contested, let's look at previous releases. Starting with survivor:
- Orela doesn't have any outright bad perks, though Rapid Response can feel a little middling. Her other two perks are just good, though- good with an asterisk or two, like Duty of Care only really being strong in SWF, but still good.
- Taurie does have one outright bad perk, her Invocation, but her other two are very solid to make up for it. Shoulder the Burden is a very situational perk and hard to use, but undeniably has the potential to swing matches if used correctly, and Clean Break is just flat out a really solid and worthwhile perk.
- Trevor has three perks that don't quite clear the "decent" bar, but none of them fall under it either. Eyes of Belmont has good synergies and a solid effect on its own, Exultation imo wasn't buffed in the best way but does undeniably provide a noticeable benefit, and Moment of Glory can be finicky to use but isn't outright bad.
- Lara may have released with the very mediocre Specialist, but Hardened is a perfectly decent perk and Finesse is outright strong.
- The Troupe I considered over Haddie for "all of these are bad", but really I think they're all just middling. Still Sight now is a lot more usable, Mirrored Illusion is more of a meme perk like Blast Mine so that one's fine, and Bardic Inspiration is… fine, too, really. Nobody really runs it for its effect though, I feel like.
- Sable's perks are all very solid now, though it's worth mentioning Weaving Spiders was bad on release. Wicked and Strength in Shadows have both been solid upper-mid/lower-top tier contenders since release, though.
I'll stop there so this post doesn't get too long, especially since I'm tackling killer next, but you get the point. If you stop and evaluate each perk over the past six survivor releases, you only really get two outright bad ones— though admittedly you do also get a good chunk of just "okay" ones. These are all perks that'd hit the "good but not OP" bar in terms of strength, they're all just unpopular for a variety of other reasons.
Briefly, let's look at killer too, because while I do think it's worse over there I don't think it's that bad.
- Springtrap has Phantom Fear, a deceptively good perk that has a pretty solid set of use cases. Haywire is okay but not incredible, and Help Wanted is… synergy fodder, not great on its own but not terrible overall either.
- Kaneki, as mentioned, kinda does have bad perks. I like Forever Entwined and it doesn't do nothing for you, plus Nothing But Misery does at least do something useful once it finally does activate, same with None Are Free, but let's face it. None of these perks are good.
- Houndmaster released with the potent Scourge Hook support perk Jagged Compass, and her other two perks aren't bad either- All-Shaking Thunder is finicky to use but potentially very good, and No Quarter is a perfectly reasonable self-heal counter.
- Dracula does, undeniably, unfortunately, have Wretched Fate. I think that perk is badly designed but it's not because it's bad. His other two perks in my opinion hit the "decent" bar, but I could see arguments for them being actively weak.
- Vecna does have Weave Attunement, and the strength of that perk is fairly debatable (I think it's still very good, but I can see the counter arguments), but let's not forget Languid Touch has been a pretty great perk since launch and Dark Arrogance, while weirdly designed, is still useful.
- Unknown, bottom text. Well, Unforeseen is pretty good, at least…
In short: I don't think perks are released intentionally underpowered. I think BHVR skew weaker because they're worried about another MFT or CoH situation, but even then some slip through the cracks, see release Weave Attunement or arguably Ultimate Weapon— and even outside of that, skewing weaker doesn't mean the perks are actually outright weak themselves, it just means they're not meta-busters.
Which, imo, is a good thing. You don't want stuff that challenges meta perks on strength alone, that's how you get power creep. Right now we have the largest pool of viable perks we've ever had, most of them just aren't all that popular. It's a difficult problem to fix, from BHVR's perspective.0 -
and we should balance the game around ghoul or what? ill let you in on a secret, even though ghoul is a popular killer, not everyone plays ghoul. lots of people play killers like springtrap who, like it or not, are not feeling well in the meta balanced for average clueless survivors playing against ghoul
current slowdown meta is way more healthy than previous alternatives, it's an objective fact - it encourages committing to chases, spreading hooks and doesnt require killer to rely on a mobility power to get value out of it. it could be better - not rely on chase efficiency as well yet it's far more preferable than ######### like ruin/undying meta that only really benefitted blight and was mediocre for most other killers, overbrine eruption that benefitted low tiers well and made up the most mindnumbing boring gameplay and so on.
mft was unhealthy because it was 1) free value 2) two perks in one 3) breaking killer's perception of timings 4) specifically targeting already weaker killers. haste stacking was hardly top 5 of the issues, just the most blatant example of the perk being stupid because it was two permanent haste effects combined together.
So who gets to decide what's healthy or unhealthy?
people who understand why it is not okay to have a constant stream of perks specifically targeting fairplay, skilled play, interactive parts of the game, soloq, bad players or offmeta killers
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I think Phantom Fear is pretty decent even though cool-down might be pretty long.
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Phantom Fear has a potential, but currently it's pretty bad perk imo. Like In 90% of cases it just works on survivor that you're already chasing or seeing. And 2 seconds is barely enough to even see who is screaming, so I would prefer almost any other info perk to this one. Even my favourite Spies from the Shadow gives me x10 more value, than Phantom Fear.
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- No guys, one thing is the really powerful old "MFT", another is the perks that require Saturn to be in opposition with Pluto on Christmas Day 2037... to have a mediocre effect.🤣 There are also "middle ways", don't try to minimize the problem.
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