http://dbd.game/killswitch
Fog vials completely kill the engagement and pacing of trials
Comments
-
I think the issue with limiting their usage, as alot of people seem to be wanting, is that they're not impactful enough to bother bringing in that case. Of course they're inconvenient to go against, but I'm pretty sure that's the point. The devs would likely buff them considerably if they cut down on how often they can be used, and as someone who actually has minimal issue going against them currently, I'd hate to see that.
-1 -
and .. + something else I want to add: the problem is, as killer you simply don’t have the time to play hide-and-seek or engage in "stealth games—at least not against an efficient team. The game used to be slower overall, gens took longer, and survivors didn’t push the pace nearly as hard as they do now.
Back then, killers still felt threatening. Today, most teams know your limits down to the pixel and will use that knowledge against you.
And there wasn’t MMR back then either—you constantly had mixed lobbies where you, as killer, had all the time in the world. But y ..
I feel your nostalgia. I kind of miss the old fog, the old grass, the old atmosphere too…
... but nowadays, if you lose someone against an efficient team, you’re just screwed. You can’t afford that anymore.
but..
The biggest and most significant difference compared to back then is this:
Back then, way more people were new. Even the “good” players from back in the day would be considered pretty bad by today’s standards — and there simply was no MMR.(Back then, as killer, you had so much time—time for everything (well, as long as there weren’t any old brand-new parts in play, of course).
2 -
The Fog Vials should by an unlimited use item, but they should also be balanced as an unlimited use item.
Because right now, they are balanced as if they were a single use item. An unlimited use item shouldn't be blocking audio at all. And arguably they shouldn't be blocking auras either.
3 -
If you want me to be honest, the Fog Vials have already kinda stopped be all that useful. While I managed to save myself and a few others for the first few days, now it's clear that Killers have largely learned how to get past it.
1 -
I have no problems tracking survivors in fog vials, it’s not much different from chasing someone running lucky break (but you can still track the blood). I suspect part of the issue is people who just aren’t good at tracking when stealth mechanics are in play, and the other part being your environment (not everyone can play in a dark environment with no light reflecting on the screen with good visual settings), same issue some people have with dredge.
0 -
So long as killers CAN kill as fast as they do now, gens need to be completable in that time frame or what's the point of queuing for survivor? (Especially in solo queue)
Slower gen completion could be re-introduced to the game for the price of larger maps, nerfed killer aura perks, nerfed killer map traversal, or other balance changes to make sure killers aren't just steamrolling the now further enfeebled survivors.
-3 -
100%. Definitely not just solo queue, but most SWFs too. If the game gave you more time at the current pace, most teams wouldn’t stand a chance. That’s just how it is now. The problem is, if I’m supposed to allow more stealth gameplay and go along with it, I need more time. But with the speed most groups set, you lose if you try. So you don’t even try. But you’re right: if rounds got longer to favor stealth, killer sticking to efficient playstyles would just wipe everyone else out.
It’s a classic balance trade-off.
Anything you slow down in the game to favor stealth ends up making it too easy for players who stick to the efficiency meta
0 -
This is sort of where I'm torn on them. I can see why they could be an issue if they get spammed all at once and break chase from the start. At the same time though, you guys are absolutely right that chase is really just a battle of attrition these days. Killers don't really lose chase too often and there's many tools to help them if they do. Steamrolls are also way more common than they should be. An item like this isn't really that great, but it does succeed at being a mini comeback mechanic. Certainly no more powerful than camping/tunneling/slugging.
3 -
Fog vials either need to be limited or have there cooldown drastically increased.
They could also instead be changed to allow to see Stratchmarks, Auras and Audio.
If we're going back to the hide and seek aspect then we gotta change maps to have less loops and more hiding spots instead
-2 -
I can’t imagine how any killer power can negotiate survivors ability to win.
If killers power can negotiate squads with headon, sabo, power struggle, dh, or ect., well, it’s few killers, they aren’t extremely popular, and again, u still can win.
From killers perspective, if survivor has soul guard, unbreakable and new michone perk, oni can’t even pickup because cool-down lasts longer than 25% recovery progress. Same with fool stack sfw with flashlights and power struggle, why survivor always trying to be get down under pallete. Same with fog vials and range killer, myers, ghostface, and spirit.
In what cases killer power can negotiate skill from survivor and make them simply waste time ? I’m curious2 -
Obviously. And I don't see any problem with tunneling per se. It's just that I usually try to play nice if I can. (I so rarely get to verse competitive teams.)
I enjoy chases and mind-games. I applaud skillful vanishing acts.
Dropping a cloud of smoke ninja-style to avoid a chase goes against that so discouraging it feels like the right move.
But given all the negative feedback I've seen around (not just here), by the time I launch the game again it will probably be nerfed.
-1 -
He s probably about how a lot of survivor perks can be countered through base killer kit alone—and, I have to agree. With the right decisions, you can completely shut down entire perk builds. (full sabo squads with slug etc) DS can be avoided by slugging too. Tons of perks only activate after an unhook—Dead Hard, Deliverance, whatever—can all be denied through full slugs.
So ye: the base killer kit can hard-counter a lot of survivor perks. Whole builds, even.
But it’s wild roulette.
(Tes is describing the experience accurately here. (And ye, the new perk is just aother fun-fun toy stuff for survivors again.)
.. survivors also have tons of counter-perks for every scenario, and the killer never knows what’s coming. It’s a dice game.
Always.
You slug because you expect DS? No DS—but they have Unbreakable.
As killer, you’re constantly stuck in a second-chance roulette, where you just have to hope your current move is betting on the right color.And then you run into a "strong" SWF that has everything stacked for every situation.
So yes: the killer kit can counter a lot.
And honestly? I think it’s still not enough.There are so many situations where you’re just completely powerless—just like tes I quoted here lready pointed out.
0 -
That’s what I’m trying to say.
Yes. I’m playing myself the killer who counter A LOT of builds. Pyramidhead has potential to shut down many “funny perks”.
But still, survivors have option not being tormented and it would require skill from me to force such situation. I also sacrifice being to able to use 50% of meta perks from killers. Dead man’s switch, surge, pop goes the whisle, sbfl, bbq aren’t good option. I really rarely bring scourge + dms combo on him and usually have only eruption as regress perk. And using eruption isn’t that easy, because requires high pressure or 3gen strategy play.
People still can win if I’ll do mistake, or decide to get easy on them and put less pressure/don’t tunnel in actually good game for survivors. Simply, they can simply be better than me in chase ( I personally struggle on rpd a lot). So, yes, it seems kinda…. Fair? I also sacrifice something choosing killer that can counter many builds. Phead is an old killed and was balanced in such term. I’m just unhappy with what they did with his flicks and how his 4.2 nerf was released along with “pre shift W” meta thanks to fog vials. But anyway, I just can adapt and punish survivors for avoiding chases to secure one kill by unfunny strategy.
But I don’t find it fair when oni can’t even insta pick up survivor he put down. Or when huntress with poor mobility just suffer because of fog vials. That’s simply unhealthy
0 -
Oh, I know that name : hello ^_^. Are you « 281/282 DbD achievements » ? (Your name feels pretty unique so I'm guessing it's you.)
I wonder what has made you finally create an account here after all these years.
0 -
If you could see scratchmarks, auras, and hear all audio in a fog cloud - what exactly is the point? Mild vision obscuring? It would be a meme item at best.
1 -
Played against Dredge now a couple times… it seems like Dredge's power negates the effects of the fog vial. Has no effect when in Nightfall.
0 -
oh hey hey :D y, guess u are right. :D ? if that is me? (still need this damn gen @ the new map :/.. )
and y.
I felt like I had to. Like I had to fight. Somehow. There are so many changes coming that I’m not really happy to see. That’s probably why I had to sign up here (and maybe make myself a bit unpopular with some stuff, but.. ).
The biggest problem I see way more is that chases sometimes don’t even start or get interrupted mid-chase. You’re working your way through a loop — window should close right away, but bam: chase gone, nope, window blocker denied.
new chase. Maybe totally fresh shack/main run.
That buys the survivor team so damn much more time.
Sure, you want to win those tiles before the window blocker becomes a thing, but y.. suck sometims
1 -
That is honestly one of the most ridiculous things I've seen on here. Why not tunnel every flashlight user. It would make as much sense.
1 -
Starting the tunnel just because he bring a flashy? Does that really make sense?
1 -
I'm not saying every killer power needs to counter a survivors build. But it makes perfect sense that a killer's power can counter the survivor's perks.
1 -
Yupp.. right.
Killers should be able to counter survivor perks with their base kit, without relying on perks themselves. Otherwise, the survivor team gets too strong and the balance breaks. A killer can’t bring a counter perk for every situation. Flexibility and pressure need to be built into a killer’s core kit.
-1 -
That’s a false equivalence a well-known fallacy. Flashlights encourage interaction and are part of the chase. The Fog Vial, on the other hand, actively undermines it.
As for calling my comment “one of the most ridiculous things” you’ve read on this forum: seriously? It was a simple, rational point about punishing the use of an item that interferes with what I love most in the game.
Given the sheer volume of truly absurd takes floating around here, I find that claim pretty ridiculous. (Unless you’ve got a top 1000 list you're updating daily.)3 -
A line of sight blocker would still be very useful in many cases actually
1 -
Nothing rational about tunneling someone for using an item.
-3 -
Wow, The fog vials are a very polarising item it seems…
Personally, I don't mind facing them as Killer and they've made the Survivor role fun again. Made me care a lot less about running into all the camping, tunnelling and slugging Killers out there. I do think maybe it could stand to take a little longer to recharge, but generate thicker fog as a trade off for being able to use it less often. That's probably the only change I would make to them. Please BHVR, let us keep this silly little item more or less how it currently is.
I also like that they help to create space for different play styles and perk combos to evolve / be viable again. I didn't like that the game was moving in a chase or die direction, with Killers on aura read autopilot and only one or two ways to play the Survivor role (e.g. Slam gens or be Ayrun).
I honestly think it's a good thing that Survivors who are weaker in chase now have something they can bring to disrupt the Killer from tracking them. But the vial is only so effective if they can use it well. So far, my success rate at losing Killers with the vial has been about 50/50 (although there's a bug making their effectiveness vary by map, so it's hard to tell how good or bad they really are just yet).
0 -
I think the spammable nature is fine and so is the refill because the thing about fog vials is that they're the only survivor item that can hurt as well as help. If used poorly they do either nothing or make things worse, as they can confuse survivors too. People also use them stupidly. I had someone hiding from me the other day. As soon as I got nearby they released the fog, essentially telling me where they were. There's no way to harm yourself like this with a toolbox. They also block aura reading for other survivors as well as the killer. I use Emapthy for map awareness and injured people suddenly disappearing is messing up my ability to keep track of things.
I've also yet to see a whole team of fog vial users. Flashlights are still better for more skilled usage. A team of vial users will probably be in it for the clowning (if this is your vibe please let me join your team).
-5 -
"an item" : are you doing this on purpose or is the point escaping you that much?
If you're unable to understand the rationale, that's on you.
I can't help you with that. Honestly, I don't think anyone can.0 -
So spam is fine, cause some people mess up with properly missing such concept?
-1 -
Because the margin for error is massive, yes, and because the item isn't even in the top half tier for useful items. Four people can bring flashlights and chain blind the killer endlessly every time they make a move. They can also bring Built to Last, which would make the flashlight almost endless in the right hands. What's the difference? It's that the flashlight is way better.
So far they've helped me more as killer than hurt. People think they have a security blanket when they release them so they don't think, and they go in the most obvious direction, usually running straight or taking a right. I've lost a total of one chase because of them, and that's because the other three people ran in to cause chaos. It was a good play, but it won't be the common one. Vials are such a none issue that I'm amazed how much people are upset about them (in a normal context, not an accessibilty one.) I barely even see them being used, and it seems p100s are getting basically none in their bloodwebs.
Imagine if the medkit was a newly introduced item. "No fair! You should bring a self-heal perk for that." Any little change and people flip out. These haven't even had time to find their place in the game yet.
-4 -
If error issue is massive, maybe encourage people using this item more wisely by making it limited? Or oh no, if u are good in using fog vials, this is mean u can’t abuse them anymore…
Why mechanic that accept people making repeatedly mistakes should exist even? Because someone find chaos instead of normal play “fun”?
3 -
Much light flashlights, some people are terrible with them and get themselves downed trying to blind, and some people are pros and keep the killer perpetually blinded. These will be the same, except I don't think they'll get that popular. I don't know how good you can really get with a smoke cloud. The best use I can figure out for them is to drop one after an unhook if you hear the killer coming back. In that way, they could be good tool to combat tunneling in a very small and still not good enough way.
It's also possible they're making them less limited for awhile for people to get used to them and they'll adjust it later. If they limit them to charges, then Built to Last should affect them. I imagine we'll see the fog version of Lightborn on a future killer too.
And yeah, I do find chaos fun. The game has gotten a little stale. A new toy is a nice change.
-4 -
But the difference with flashlights u can’t click spamming with them anymore. That’s the point!
Just for example, why I find this item being spammable unhealthy…
In this match where I was killer both Sable and Nea had vials. Sable used them poorly and unfortunately gave me free hooks.
But nea? Oh, she did pretty good job, I wasn’t able to find her. So it was 2 people on death hook before I killed Sable (so some people can’t assume I tunneled her). And because it was basically 3 people in match instead of 4, 2 of them died to quickly.
This Nea was literally sandbagging her teammates by refusing to take appropriate chase herself. Well, her right, but after this her last teammate happily sold her out and showed me her location. I did my job and gifted Feng hatch.
And I had many games like this. Where it’s 3 vs 1 vs 1.That shouldn’t exist at all. Even when it works well for me while I’m playing as killer. BHVR removed stealth mechanic by adding gamma adjust and afk crows, claiming the primary reason is for encouraging teamwork and taking chases that requires some skill.
Now we returned to sandbagging and no skill involving hide and seek era, but they evolved. Don’t find it fun at all. If u simply making them limited use, people will start trying to use them as a way to extract max value. Nothing bad for players who use this item in bad situations. Nothing bad for extra way to prolong time when survivor faces tunneling. Nothing extremely broken for killer so they have valid reasons to whine about it.But damn, it will literally will solve many issues. Less people with accessibility issues having hard time, Spirit, huntress, deathslinger being more playable again, no abuse from good players, less sandbagging from bad players.
Genuinely, just be honest. Do u enjoy it because people are terrible against u using them, and u like this chaos when it’s only bringing some advantage to you, ignoring massive downsides that many people on this forum already encountered? Sorry if that sounded rude. I just want to know the reason why you emphasis that people are generally bad at using the item in your matches and encouraging that by spamming the item is okay.
3 -
My honest opinion is we haven't yet figured out both their optimal usage and their optimal counterplay and we aren't going to do that if they're super limited right out the gate. For a shiny new item, people are barely using them as is. If they adjust them—and I'm sure they will--then cool, but they should figure out what that adjustment should be instead of some rash decision based on a messy week or endless bugs like infinite-refill Streetwise, head-popping Pig, and the addition of zoomzoom Clown. Tensions are high and opinions are spicy right now.
I'm not interested in easy kills. I'm not sweaty. Don't care about stats. I give mercy hatch and screw around with survivors regualrly. I also play survivor. My view as survivor is that I love vials as a concept because they're silly and I can finally take off my sweaty gen build and put on Scene Partner and be stupid again because this game had become miserable as surv. I desperately needed this game to lighten up and, as survivor, these are doing that for me.
-2 -
Before, I’m sorry, u proposed your opinion in other way. Fine then
0 -
Are you really comparing survivors that use flashlights really well, to survivors that use fog vials really poorly? How is that fair?
If you're going to have an example where the fog vials are being used poorly, then you should also be using an example where the flashlights are being used poorly. Like, saying flashlights help killers more than hurt killers, because the flashlight user is wasting time that could have been spent repairing generators, and the flashlight user is always failing the flashlight saves.
0 -
I did mention flashlights being used poorly, in the comment before that one.
3 -
It's a bad argument to say that fog vials are fine, because they work poorly when they are used poorly.
You should be commenting on how fog vials work when used well. And the words "so they don't think" or "they go in the most obvious direction" don't apply to survivors using fog vials well.
0 -
I'm saying there's risk/reward built into them, like flashlights, and unlike other items, which are just reward. And when I actually see this item that's been around for literally days used in an impressive way more than once I'll let you know. My point is the drama around them doesn't match their current efficiency of use.
-1 -
I have a feeling the next killer might come with a lightborn equivalent to fog vials but tbh we shouldn't expect killers to wait so long with no counter. Maybe shadowborn could be changed to counter them.
-2 -
and the fact that they can really lead into a more 'bully squad' type of build. I tried fog vial and duty of care and that went so hard at shack.
0 -
Toolboxes have a risk/reward, because a survivor can mess up a hook sabotage and end up getting hit into the dying state. And keys have a risk/reward when blood amber is being used.
1 -
An add-on is a choice. The key itself is safe. Toolboxes are safe if you just use them for gens. I can go stand in a corner of the map and open a vial and the giant cloud of billowing fog will broadcast my location to the killer. The reward/risk is a little bigger there.
The argument I've mostly seen is to make them limited in use. If that's the case, they probably need a buff because they're not stellar. If they get buffed, they might end up like Void Crystals, which were insane. If they get nerfed, they're utterly useless.
0 -
You can’t break LOS if someone’s seeing your aura. To a lesser extent, the presence of scratch marks can make breaking LOS ineffective as well.
0 -
A 10-12 meter radius circle isn't really "broadcasting the location", especially if the survivor is using a fog vial specifically because the killer knows the survivor is somewhere in that general area. And it's even safer in indoor maps, where the fog vial might not even be visible from far away. Again, you keep giving the worst case scenarios for fog vials, which isn't fair.
Also, having a risk/reward doesn't mean something should be immune to nerfs. NOED is a hex totem, and therefore has a risk/reward, but it still got nerfed.
-2 -
That's if the killer is using aura perks and Stratchmarks being the counterplay to vials is actually reasonable form of counterplay cause as they stand they don't.
1 -
If a killer isn't using aura perks then they certainly don't care if Fog Vials obscure auras, yes?
So far as scratch marks go, they're already there. Fog Vials are meant to be a counterplay to them, not the other way around.
4 -
killer auras have gotten out of hand and survivors lost distortion; something had to give.
these smoke bombs also help with tunneling; doesn't matter if you reward spreading hooks or punish tunneling neither are as effective as removing the possibility altogether by having the killer lose the survivor in chase.
it's about time we got an item like this. I'm fine with a 60% killrate but you're gonna have to work for it and not just teleport to a Nowhere to Hide aura
6 -
You don't like what fog vials do so you plan to ruin the game of anyone who uses them. Wasn't complicated. Just really sad.
1 -
Vials are absolutely miserable for line-of-sight killers with projectiles. I cannot believe fog vials are in the game for 1v4 matches. It was bad enough for 2v8. The density of the smoke and the charge limits need to be balanced heavily!!!!
-2 -
Honestly, I've been playing killer all morning and had fog vials in every game so far and the audio is muffled but not completely removed. I dunno if it's a headphones thing maybe? It's legit causing me zero issues. I'm honestly stumped seeing so many people have issues with fog vials. I cant recall a single game where I've been disorientated or lost a survivor. I even just had a game on Forgotten Ruins now where I hit a Meg, she dropped a vial, I saw her blood pools run into the portal and I saw she Plot Twisted. So I entered the portal and looked down at my feet and there she was. The fog vial was still active too down there (or possibly another survivor dropped one to try hide her friend). It was a clever play but common sense prevailed.
Perhaps we should all share gameplay clips? Maybe it's different depending on our settings or something?
2
