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Fog Vials - Things with minute long cooldowns are not "Unlimited Use"
Fog vials are not unlimited use nor are they spammable.
In a situation where there is a limited amount of time in which to use an ability and that ability has a minute cooldown time, it cannot possibly be "unlimited use".
The maximum number of times something with a minute cooldown can be used in any match is 60, with a first use in the first second and the last use in second one of minute 59. This is unrealistic of course because it requires a match to last unrealistically long and for the player to be available, uninterrupted, and hyper focused on triggering this ability, but theoretically - the max is 60.
Most matches being between 10 and 15 minutes likewise work out to a theoretical max of 10 to 15 uses. This again requires the player to be available (not hooked, not downed) every time the cooldown is up and to trigger it every time they can possibly trigger it.
The likelihood of a fog vial actually being useful EVERY time the cooldown is up, the very moment the cooldown is up is extremely low at best.
So, say you aren't on top of things and only trigger your fog vial once every minute thirty seconds. That gives you between 6 uses max in a 10 minute match and 10 uses max in a 15 minute match. Say you don't trigger it just for funsies because your cooldown is up, but only when you actually could use it. Starting to get pretty close to 4 or 5 charges if not right on.
Cooldowns are just charges wearing a trench coat and a mustache as a disguise. It's a nice disguise. It makes me feel freer to use an item instead of being paranoid and wanting to hoard charges because I never know if I might need them later and I've got a number in the HUD staring me in the face. It's still just a disguise though.
Comments
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While I agree that, definitionally, a cooldown is a limit and thus the usage is not 'unlimited', I also don't think 60 seconds is that long for a survivor cooldown. Survivors have down-time every now and then (Or they're supposed to, anyway), so they can shoulder a 60 second cooldown decently well. I don't think it's wrong to point out that a 60 second cooldown basically translates to it being up every single chase on that particular survivor.
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Bull-#########!
use is 1 time per 60 seconds. Given that most matches average at 10 minutes, that's a maximum of 10 uses of an item that lasts between 8-12 seconds on their BASE and not Add-on enhanced versions. Multiply that by 4, and you've got a maximum of 40 uses per 10 minute match, each lasting between 8-12 seconds or a total of 320 seconds (5.33 mins) minimum, and 480 seconds (8 Mins) maximum uses in an average 10 minute match! At minimum with everyone using them every time they recharge that is slightly more than HALF of the match duration, and at Maximum, that's everyone using them every minute of the match with 2 mins of downtime! and if they Stagger the usage, wherein the team communicates over comms, and only releases them 1 after another instead of around the same timeframe, they can effectively activate them every time one of them is in a chase with the killer for the ENTIRE match!
D0 you have any idea how playing a killer in a match like either of these scenarios feels? Did you even PLAY killer when they were first released? Hell, Survivors pop them in the begging 11 seconds of a match just to defeat the possibility of Lethal Pursuer, and still have up to 9 more potential uses of them!
Unlimited uses/current recharge rate Has GOT to go. While I sympathize in that the devs have Over Nerfed them this last hotfix, I can't stress enough how much they are 100% correct on nerfing them to be "Limited" use only in the next hotfix. You guys got your new toy, and proved to everyone how much it needs "fine tuning", and yeah, the devs overreacted a bit, but when it comes to limiting their usage frequency, they're moving in the right direction.
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So, this paranoia u described is justified. Maybe that’s WHY it’s worthy to give every item charges?
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So a one minute cooldown is not enough for you? When killer cooldowns are much less than that.. just another example of killers, wanting everything handed to them.
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It is unlimited even with the cooldown as it will never runs out. Still there is also no reason it to be unlimited when no other item is and in the end matches are not that long so usage amount makes sense for it. It also makes its usage more tactical and not just "I get into chase I pop this thing if its out of cooldown" as it was mainly used.
Then the biggest reason is just simplicity's sake it makes sense to it to have the same charge system as all items. This will make it easier to understand and makes it also easier to corporate with new perks. Having four different item systems in this game is just not really needed and because this game in the end is meant to be game with finite resources on survivor side an item that is not finite just goes against the basic idea of the items.
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Actually yes, I played killer against them quite a bit when they were released. They're easy enough to work around and the panic about how strong they were is in my opinion based on my experience with them, grossly overblown. I found them easy enough to play through most of the time. A few times the survivors were able to evade me which is kind of the whole point of the item. Overall, working as intended. Otherwise it sounds like it might be a skill issue.
Do you know how many matches I ran across more than 2 people running fog vials? Zero.
Do you know the amount of coordination it would take for a 4 man SWF to cycle fog vials in the manor you describe? Why would they bother? That much coordination - why do you need fog vials in the first place?
So long as you are basing your call to nerf something on an unrealistic, never happening outside a custom game scenario then yeah - I'm going to disagree. I actually have more hours on killer than survivor although I do play both so I'm not sure who you think you're talking to when you say "You guys got your new toy, and proved to everyone how much it needs "fine tuning"".
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My point is that it IS already finite and switching to charges isn't going to reduce the realistic number of times it CAN be used where it has any bearing on the match. I'm not saying it shouldn't be limited, my argument is that it already is.
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You're correct on the "spammable" aspect, and I totally agree that, even before they were nerfed, the opacity wasn't a problem.
I would disagree with them not being unlimited, because through the trial they are not limited to a select number of uses, ergo they are unlimited.
In general, they were not an issue, although they were imbalanced in terms of a few Killers being weaker to it than others. Some alteration to the sound may resolve that.
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Fair enough… But to avoid the Dick measuring contest that you are inciting, not to gate keep but I've been playing this since 2016, and have… WAY more hours than you, primarily as killer… does that make my playing for over 60 hours since the release of the patch more meaningful in my experience as a killer main? No. Does it emphasize how much more often I've had against the new Fog Vials? Yes. However, Much of what you say is true, and at the same time horrendously false.
I've played enough that most, if not all of my killer matches, are in the high SBMM range, and let me tell you… those turds NEVER hold back on any of their builds or tactics! The moment they got this "new toy" they made sure to make me, and everyone else at my level HATE IT! Because while we can and often do deal with them with our instincts, when employed on EVERY chase by our target or their teammates, and so often, we even forget what MAP we're on… it gets tiring if not frustrating. Not every team we go up against is 4 player swf, but at my level, more often than not, it's within the 2x2 man, 3x1 man, or 4 man swf's, because a full team of solos is nigh unheard of! Yeah, there are times we come across the rare instance of a 2 man x 2 solo… but that is few and far between.
Look, I'll level with you here. Some of what you've said is right, in that survivors aren't yet used to the fullest potential Fog vials offer, that I can agree on, BUT once survivors at large get wind of how useful they actually can be, and what HELL they can reap upon the killers… They'll become the most used item hands down, even after the devs limit their charge count.
We're talking about 1 item that grants the effects of: Light footed + Poised + Iron Will + Distortion for up to 12 meters and for 12 seconds here. On top of that, survivors literally do NOTHING to recharge it since it recharges every 60 seconds on its own. The thickness of the fog it generates was NEVER the primary issue, to me, the issues were the overbearing noise, and the unlimited, and "unearned" amount of uses.
To put it in perspective, Flashlights, medkits, toolboxes, even Flashbangs have limited uses. This makes survivors have to plan when, where, and how to use them to get the greatest benefit. Fog Vials on the other hand, can be used every freaking minute, and due to the loss of perks that could defeat them like Franklin's Demise, or even Overwhelming Presence, The killers have literally NOTHING they can do to counter them in any way.
You're trying your hardest to argue that they don't pose a threat as much as the killer players are saying, and that would be fair considering that they're brand new and no one really understands how impactful they can be, but I counter by saying simply that you're not seeing the bigger picture here.
I've tried to explain it to you, but hell, let the devs decide to go with you, just don't come crying to them when you realize your queue times have gone up because there are less killers playing.
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Fair enough… But to avoid the Dick measuring contest that you are inciting, not to gate keep but I've been playing this since 2016, and have… WAY more hours than you, primarily as killer… does that make my playing for over 60 hours since the release of the patch more meaningful in my experience as a killer main? No. Does it emphasize how much more often I've had against the new Fog Vials? Yes. However, Much of what you say is true, and at the same time horrendously false.
Actually I was responding to you treating me like I was only a survivor player and could only offer survivor biased opinions. The only person measuring anything here is you. My screenshot demonstrates I play both sides - not sure why you find that threatening or challenging in some way but you do you.
I've tried to explain it to you, but hell, let the devs decide to go with you, just don't come crying to them when you realize your queue times have gone up because there are less killers playing.
Sounds like you're happy with the 10+ minute killer queue times that have only just just been alleviated with the release of TWD survivors. Don't worry, I'm sure it'll get back to that soon enough because no one wants to play survivor and you'll just be dumbfounded as to why you have to wait so long in queue.
To put it in perspective, Flashlights, toolboxes, even Flashbangs have limited uses. This makes survivors have to plan when, where, and how to use them to get the greatest benefit. Fog Vials on the other hand, can be used every freaking minute, and due to the loss of perks that could defeat them like Franklin's Demise, or even Overwhelming Presence, The killers have literally NOTHING they can do to counter them in any way.
Flashlights and Flashbangs can also be used "every freaking minute". So can toolboxes theoretically, but that's just being pedantic.
You're trying your hardest to argue that they don't pose a threat as much as the killer players are saying, and that would be fair considering that they're brand new and no one really understands how impactful they can be, but I counter by saying simply that you're not seeing the bigger picture here.
Who are these killer players? And are you really going with 'No one understands but I do, just trust me bro' as an argument here? No thank you.
All that said, you're clearly just trolling me. No one is that tilted about fog vials no matter how much of an entrenched, biased, killer main someone is.
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All this talk about charges vs unlimited use are mute points if the fog vials stay as nerfed as they are. They could give these items 10 charges and Survivors still won't be bringing them to trial, because every other item is more useful than a Fog Vial.
I think I probably got about 4 or 5 Fog Vial uses per trial on average. So if the vials are given a similar number of charges, then it's not going to feel much different to the "infinite" Fog Vials. Plus, Built to Last is a thing. So I agree with the OP on that point. That said, they might end up giving the vials less charges but for a much stronger effect. This would probably make the item something you would avoid buying in the blood web, but it might still be worth grabbing if you found one in a chest.
We also don't know if the Fog Vial will still go on cooldown even with charges, which will make them unappealing compared to a beamer (which you can use anytime). If I don't have Lightborn equipped, beamers are a lot more effective than fog vials against me because I don't use headphones. So if I get blinded at a pallet, then I often don't know where the Survivor has gone to and that will be enough time to reach the next pallet. There are more Killers out there playing casually like this than people might think (I can often tell which Killers are playing with headphones on and which ones aren't).
I don't know why BHVR didn't think to do something simpler like increase the cooldown time on the vials. Or they could even add a fogborn perk to the pool of general perks. I liked the idea of an item that recharges itself.
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Would you feel better if people used the words "severely limited" instead of "limited"?
Because when people are asking for Fog Vials to be limited, they are referring to "severely limited", but they aren't being hyper specific with their language. And if you want a hyper specific definition for that, it's "significantly less than the average number of times a survivor currently uses a fog vial, when they bring a fog vial to a match"
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Phantom Fear is the Fog Vial of Killer.
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