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Should fog vials have infinite charges and pre-nerfed opacity, but be weaker in other ways?
Should fog vials have infinite charges and pre-nerfed opacity, but be weaker in other ways? Something like below? If not, then are there any nerfs that would have been acceptable?
NEW SURVIVOR ITEM: FOG VIAL
Press the Use Item button to release a cloud of fog, decreasing visibility and suppressing scratch marks. Recharges over time.
Each Fog Vial shares the following parameters:
Has 1 charge, that recharges over time.
Has 40% opacity.
Has an 6-meter radius.
Suppresses scratch marks.
FOG VIAL ITEM VARIANTS
APPRENTICE'S FOG VIAL (COMMON):
Reaches its maximum size after 2 seconds.
Lasts 8 seconds.
Recharges 70 seconds after use.
ARTISAN'S FOG VIAL (UNCOMMON):
Reaches its maximum size after 1.5 seconds.
Lasts 10 seconds.
Recharges 65 seconds after use.
VIGO'S FOG VIAL (RARE):
Reaches its maximum size after 1.2 seconds.
Lasts 12 seconds.
Recharges 60 seconds after use.
FOG VIAL ADD-ONS
Volcanic Stone (Common):
Decreases recharge time by 5 seconds.
Reactive Compound (Uncommon):
Decreases fog cloud expansion time by 1 second.
Oily Sap (Rare):
Increases fog cloud lifetime by 2 seconds.
Mushroom Formula (Very Rare):
If you use a fog vial while crouched, it throws the fog vial 10 meters in front of you.
Note: The fog vial magically reappears in your hand afterwards
Potent Extract (Visceral):
Clouds of fog also suppresses survivor auras.
Discussion: The two most important things for survivors, is the infinite charges and the opacity. So the best solution is to keep both those things intact, and make the rest of the effects weaker, to justify having an infinite charge.
Comments
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They should have pre-nerfed opacity and 3 charges. I think infinite use was a problem and shouldn't return, but the opacity wasn't and nerfing that made them a LOT worse. All they had to do was add limited charges, not a nerf to the actual effect (except Potent Extract which was too strong originally).
8 -
I think so, yes, but I wouldn't necessarily nerf them by as much.
Fix the opacity across maps, adjust the aura blocking to only hide players, and maybe remove footstep muffling. That's really all that's needed, Fog Vials weren't crazy oppressive before in the first place.
A lot of people freak out about the infinite use, but that's only a problem if the effect is too strong to warrant it. If we have a comparatively only decent effect, the item is balanced around infinite use, and everyone wins- killers never have to deal with crazy potent versions of these effects, and survivors get more opportunities to use the new toy.
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All they need to do is revert the item to its PTB state (add-ons too) and add a charge cap, that’s it.
Furthermore, problems relating to opacity on the various maps need to be fixed, as there are maps where the fog is more intense and others where it is practically useless.8 -
Nah. Let this "I Win Chase" button die
-14 -
They shouldn't have an infinite charge and nerfing that was the way to go. BHVR didn't need to try and reinvent items, limited use was fine, people just wanted more options for what survivors could bring that would be useful.
If after that change they still overperform (or underperform) then additional changes would be fine to discuss.
3 -
Current ones are ok with 4-5 charges imo, but like many people said it's just bloodweb junk at this point, maybe adding them at all was a mistake
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This is why I don't like the idea of limited charges.
I don't think I've ever seen a survivor use a fog vial more than 5 times in the same game, so asking for 5 charges isn't really a meaningful nerf, because most survivors wouldn't run out of charges.
I don't think survivors are ever going to like the concept of limited charges, because the number would have to be something really low like 2, in order for it to be a meaningful nerf, and 2 feels bad.
-4 -
I think they should have pre-nerfed opacity with limited charges.
2 -
This is mainly why I'm pushing for 3 charges, as I feel that would strike a balance between imposing a meaningful limit on uses but also still giving ample opportunities to use the item. I agree 2 feels bad to play with, and also agree that 5 would be too many for the reason you described.
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I would maybe keep the auras and trade them for the old 33% opacity.
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Make them identical to the Fog Crystals from the haloween event in opacity, etc. Maybe a little less severe to make addons bring it to that level.
Give the vial 8 charges. Slow survivors as they use the vial. Every second the vial is HELD this way, increase the charges expended when activated - activates when use key is released.
For each charge (second) used, the expansion rate, opacity, duration, and size is increased.
Survivors can use it for 8 quick little "tufts" of wafting gas that last 2 seconds or so, hiding an activity or juking the killer. They can also hold it for 8 seconds and release to make a massive 16s cloud that obscures everything. Everything in between.
Uses charge system like other items, can be used once - several times - modular.
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I feel like that's nerfing them for the sake of nerfing them - not because they actually need less than 5 uses a trial. Each use isn't guaranteed to be effective at anything other than making some pretty smoke - not feeling like you need to be protective of your charges is part of what makes it usable (at least to me).
1 -
Remove the fog all together. Give it (sound suppression stractch mark removal, aura blocking.) make it infinite use and be done with it.
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I find it interesting that people even say "give it 3-5 charges instead of infinite" and call it a nerf, while on reality i think 3 times is the most number of uses a survivor has used the fog vial on my games.
First, fix the opacity between maps and make it consistent. Its funny how people keep saying that the fog vials were "trash" or "overpowered" before while in reality it was both.
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Its effects were fine. The infinite charges was a problem tho, but thats been overnerfed to the point where Fog Vials are useless.
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It never really had infinite charges - the cooldown placed a limit on how much you could use it in a trial.
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The item itself has unlimited charges, because it does not list a finite number of charges on the item.
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Then 'Unlimited Charges' is a meaningless phrase that has zero bearing on the power of an item. Do you suppose so many people would be complaining about 'unlimited charges' if the thing had a half hour cooldown but still never showed a number on the user interface?
1 -
Rewrite the below definition, with as few words as possible:
“An unspecified number of charges, with a relatively short cooldown, where relatively short is currently defined as less than 90 seconds”
0 -
Why - did I make an incorrect statement in the post you were responding to? You are ignoring the fact that the words 'unlimited charges' are being used as if to suggest there are no limits to the item at all when in fact there is indeed a cooldown which very much imposes restrictions on the number of times it can be activated in a trial.
If you want to get technical about it, the item had no charges at all - much less unlimited. It was limited by a cooldown but it had no more charges than Unknown's UVX bouncy ball.
So if you want me to type a short phrase describing the old fog vials then this is it:
"An item whose activation caries a 60-90 second cooldown."
1 -
Great!
Whenever you see someone write "unlimited charges" on these forums, pretend they are saying "An item whose activation caries a 60-90 second cooldown". Because that is what they mean. It's what they are referring to.
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... I've had this argument before. The game says it has infinite charges. Idc abt the fact that match lengths are finite, you should not be able to use the vial each time you're chased or unhooked. Thats super unbalanced and unfun to vs.
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Why? The language being used is incorrect, clearly designed to make something sound big and scary, and doesn't reflect an item's actual strength or even mechanics. If my statements are going to be pedantically picked apart then I'm afraid that's going to go for everyone. Remember back when YOU were the one complaining about exact language being used?
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When I'm playing survivor I can only be unhooked twice a match - right now I can literally use it every time I'm unhooked. Are you suggesting 2 charges are unbalanced?
So far as chase goes, unless you're constantly dropping chase and waiting a minute for a survivor's cooldown to cycle it's not going to be that frequent either.
Fog vials are not get out of jail free cards. Maybe it's because I've played this game since before killers had every aura reading perk under the sun handed to them but it's really not that hard to chase survivors down or figure out where they went. Fog vials helped them escape sometimes sure - that's the point. However the number of times I've gotten a down despite the use of a fog vial greatly outnumbers the times someone managed to slip away using one. If they guarantee they get away then that would be unbalanced - but they simply don't.
1 -
The language isn't clearly designed to make something sound big and scary. There have been multiple people in these forums, arguing that fog vials should have unlimited charges. Do you honestly think they are purposely using language that makes "something sound big and scary", when they actually want the infinite charges to happen? That doesn't make sense.
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Who was I responding to in my post? Those people you're referencing who I presume totally exist or someone who was using 'unlimited charges' in a way that clearly denotes it as a bad thing?
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The item itself literally has unlimited charges. The fact that trials have a maximum time limit, doesn't change the fact that the item itself has unlimited charges.
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Incorrect. Something that doesn't use a charge system can not by definition have charges - limited, or unlimited.
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So you didn't read the first message I made. Noted.
The problem is you can keep making killers lose you in chase, and they often don't find you until your cooldown is already halved. Any good survivor is gonna last long enough to use the item again, wasting even more time.
This is incorrect. The item is literally a manually activated Lucky Break, plus Distortion and Iron Will, as well as slightly impaired vision (used to be far stronger, which it was fine that way.) The item shouldn't have been averaging 5-6 uses per survivor. Thats way too much for the effect you get and it should be made to 4 charges tops. The effect nerfs should be reverted, since the item does almost nothing now other than the temporary triple perk effect it has now, your vision is barely impaired.
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I feel like the Iri should be old Opacity with 2 charges (plus additional via the add on), and the regular should have current opacity with 4 charges (plus additonal via the add on).
Gives 2 distinct variants, the iri one easier and more reliable to get immediate valuable from but with fewer attempts, and the standard one has more uses but requires more careful usage with additional supporting perks to reliably get value.
Ofc their different performances in maps needs to be addressed regardless (if possible).
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Actually, the patch notes said the fog vials were on the charge system, when they had infinite charges.
Anyways, I stopped caring about this conversation. There isn't any risk that a lot of people are going to agree with you, and I really don't care if you agree with me.
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