http://dbd.game/killswitch
Gen stall perks feel necessary to avoid games lasting 5 minutes
I've been playing recently without a full meta build and.. well, it's just a bad experience. On a lower tier killer like Ghostface it genuinely feels impossible to stop the gens from getting absolutely blasted, even against people with no toolboxes and no gen-related perks. If the Survivors know at all what they're doing, they will just constantly be sitting on gens, and unless your killer has enough mobility to disrupt them, you are going to lose.
It feels like the only real option to enjoy the game is run full Pain Res, Grim Embrace, Corrupt Intervention, Pop/Ruin. Maybe not so much on killers like Nurse or Blight, but any killer below B tier without the ability to easily disrupt a gen halfway across the map. It always just feels bad to play against. I just barely had a match on Ghostface where my only gen perk is Deadlock, and I instantly lost two generators at the very start of the game (1 popped, the other 99) purely getting myself in a position to start stalking. Barely a minute into the game, and Survivors had essentially completed 40% of their main objective, while I was still at 0%.
It feels extremely difficult to catch up, especially with how there aren't even remotely any basekit comeback mechanics for Killer. If you get your first hook on 2 gens remaining, well, you just kind of lose the match. I hope you enjoyed the only chase you're going to get this game.
The meta is so stale, but it feels like that without it, there's very little you can do against even remotely competent Survivors. It feels almost like a fundamental game design problem; the Survivors' objective is "hold a button down on a generator, save your teammates, run away from the killer", while the Killer's objective is "find a survivor, chase them, hope it doesn't last too long, down them, hook them, repeat x12, where every chase and each survivor is different every time and a single bad decision could cost you the game." Obviously I'm rather biased, but this is just my experience.
At a certain point in the match, you're kind of forced to tunnel someone out if you want any hope of winning. What incentive is there to go for the healthy survivor on 0 hooks when there's an injured survivor on 1 or 2 hooks right in front of me? And that sucks, because I don't like tunnelling. But if I don't tunnel aggressively, I am actively losing the game in terms of objective efficiency. Any sort of incentive for Killer to spread hooks would absolutely help the problem on both sides, and anything to help the Killer in very rough matches with gens flying and few hooks would be highly welcome at this point.
Comments
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eh, you could take a build to end games within 5 minutes yourself. for example, taking a hex perk will a curse a survivor with -16 seconds of gen progress
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It feels extremely difficult to catch up, especially with how there aren't even remotely any basekit comeback mechanics for Killer.
There are tons of base kit comeback mechanics for killer.
As gens get done, the playable area shrinks, survivor resources like pallets, items, and perk charges are consumed, camping and tunneling are literally comeback mechanics (although people use them at any time), bloodlust is actually free.
You basically always have a chance at a kill, and the game isn't over until the match end screen. It may not be likely, and can require extremely good gameplay and possibly perks, but killers can still get a 4k even if all 4 survivors are alive when gens are completed.
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I generally avoid meta perks on both roles but this problem goes both ways. If I'm the only one on a gen a minute into the match with no one in chase and people cleansing dull totems for no reason, opening chests, and crouch-walking around the map, then I pretty much know I'm screwed.
Part of the issue is also that there's nothing else for survivors to do. There isn't much in the way of smaller objectives and I wish there were. I love hunting for hex totems. I also love invocations, but I don't do them cause the risk/reward just isn't good enough. More stuff like that, but better, would make a match feel fuller.
As killer, I feel like I'm in chase for 6.7 seconds when three gens pop and I'm always wondering where that efficiency is when I play surv. I bring maybe one anti-gen perk to help. I'm not bringing a whole anti-gen build though. That's so boring.
As for incentive for spreading hooks, it would be cool if there was some sort of reward for that. And maybe a penalty for not doing it. Like hooking the same survivor twice in a row boosts gen progress, whereas hooking a new one hinders progress. I'd be down for just about any idea at this point because I'm mid at chase and don't bring speed perks, so if everyone else has meta perks I'm an easy target.
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Well.. I'm right. So there.
But seriously, I get what you're saying. I just feel like that if survivors play with a little awareness they can create a really awful gen spread for the Killer, and then while the "playable area" technically does shrink, there's a massive dead zone in-between those areas that's really tough to manage if you're not playing a higher-tier killer who can deal with that.
Pallets do disappear, but a lot of times, unless you're playing a killer who can shred through pallets, dead zones are often a loss of efficiency. What I mean by that is all that time you spend chasing a survivor and getting them to drop pallets is time the other survivors have spent on gens.. and then that dead zone doesn't mean anything if no survivor is ever going to be there. But of course, if the deadzone is near where the survivors want to be, then of course it will help. I'm just saying that this isn't really something that helps the Killer so much as it detriments the Survivors if that makes sense.
Sure, Bloodlust is free. It also takes 15 valuable seconds to get to Bloodlust 1, which often isn't enough on its own, and that's without being able to kick pallets or use your power.
And you can absolutely get a 4k when everyone is alive when all gens are done. I'm not disputing that. Miracle games can and do happen. It's just very hard, and against Survivors who know what they're doing, endgame saves are impossible to prevent.
So much time spent chasing or looking for Survivors makes it very hard to catch up in terms of objectives and pacing. That's why the gen-stall meta is here, to make up for that difference. Without any built-in comeback potential for the Killer outside of simply "get insanely lucky, hope the survivors misplay, and get your slug wincon", it's hard not to feel like all of these meta perks are necessary, and even then, sometimes it doesn't feel like enough.
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I absolutely agree. It feels like strange, outdated game design that the Survivor objective is so simple ("do gens", although Survivor gameplay is of course more complex than that) while the Killer objective can vary wildly based on the people you're playing against and the map you get. (I'm not saying that the Killer needing to kill people to win is a bad thing. Just that purely from a "what do you need to do to win the game" standpoint, Survivors have it much simpler.)
More side objectives — especially ones that incentivize Survivors to move around the map more and not just sit on their generator — would absolutely be a dream come true for the game's longevity. Part of why I hate playing Survivor is just that the objective is so unbelievably monotonous.
Perks themselves can't fix this problem. There's a whole collection of "open X amount of chests to get this effect" perks, but.. why would I use them? When I can just bring a perk that actually helps me in chase or on generators? Boons exist, but they're really just "find a totem, spend 14 seconds, now your team gets a buff". Invocations seem extraordinarily difficult to balance — make them worthless (like they kind of are now?) and nobody uses them, make them too strong and it's miserable for the Killer. I think Invocations with milder effects, but that don't leave you Broken forever, are the sweet spot, since the downside becomes that you have to spend so much time setting it up.
I hate tunnelling and camping (except in endgame scenarios where it's much more justifiable). Fundamentally, tunnelling is simply the best option if you're trying to win the game — hook everyone twice, the survivors are running on 100% efficiency. Hook 1 person 3 times, the survivors are running on 75% efficiency forever. Some sort of gameplay incentive for spreading hooks would really help issues on both sides, I feel.
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It's not a miracle. I probably die at 0gens more than any other number.
You can also manufacture a 3gen yourself. Look at what gens are super close together and make sure you keep those tightly guarded. I've had many matches where I've done this with 3 or 4 people still alive and gotten a 4k.
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Only slowdown i use is Corrupt, no gen regression, and i mostly play killers without fast map traversal (Chucky, Myers, Pig). My perk focus is mostly on shortening chase. If i can always keep rotating hooks, then it keeps survivors off gens (ie one on hook, one in chase, one going for the unhook/heal, and only one on gens). Pig is probably my favourite killer right now, and she comes with great passive slowdown (traps) too. Knowing when to drop chase is important in this aspect too, as I'll still need to apply pressure on the others in the event that someone is running me too well. The rest won't just sit around twiddling their thumbs.
Gen regression perks and tunnelling is perhaps the path of least resistance for alot of players (and generally hyped as the go-to) but it's certainly not the only way to play and be successful. If map pressure is tricky then by all means stick to what feels best for you. Also, if you don't play survivor already then definitely do so. That knowledge is the best weapon you can have as killer, it makes your opponents movements alot more predictable.
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I disagree a bit about survivor being simpler, for two reasons. One is that your 25% of a whole and, if you're solo, you don't know what on earth your going to get. You might be the babysitter for 3 fresh installs. You might get a duo that only cares about one another. You might get sandbagged or bullied. Or you might get a 3-man of pros who sail you to victory.
The second point is that both roles, on their surface, are equally simple. Killer chases, hooks, kills. Survivor hides/runs, does gens, escapes. But both require strategy. Like what I said above, in manufacturing a 3gen. I do the same as survivor: I spread the gens to avoid a 3gen. But I also only have so much control and my ability to monitor my soloq teammates is limited.
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Gen regression perks are strong dont get me wrong, but stacking them on an M1 killer isnt the best way to go about it imo. 3 of the 5 regression perks you listed at the top (Pain Res, Grim, Pop) all require a hook. Its much more beneficial to run a perk like Bamboozle and maybe another chase perk or info perk to keep chases short and also to push people off of gens is more beneficial to actually make use of these perks.
In short, applying pressure and keeping people off of gens is the best form of regression
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So much time spent chasing or looking for Survivors makes it very hard to catch up in terms of objectives and pacing.
This is where I hard disagree though.
The past 3 years of this game has made maps smaller, pallets, times, and loops weaker. The devs have confirmed that average chase length has gotten shorter.
They've also added a metric ton of information perks, deleted distortion to help give the perks guaranteed value.
The main problem here is that, while people generally understand that like time is valuable (like you say for bloodlust), most killers will spend an awful, awful lot of time doing effectively nothing without realizing it.
By the way people on this forum talk (and even gameplay footage), most people appear to wander the map blindly at the beginning of the game, go out of their way to kick a gen at 5%, and finally get commit to chase with a survivor like 60+ seconds into the match. For most people, it's a huge time waste, just letting survivors do gens because you can't find anyone and are just wasting time.
This gets compounded by camping and tunneling, where even once that first hook is in place, the killer is just standing around waiting and letting survivors do gens. After the first 60 seconds of doing nothing, short chase, then another 50 seconds of camping, 2-3 survivors (who likely haven't even seen the killer yet and are left doing whatever they want) have done 3 full gens, and killers scream "gen rushing" and demand BHVR nerf gen speeds
The issue is the killer being crazy inefficient early game, and not examining their own gameplay.
The game always favors the killer more and more the longer the match goes (this is where those comeback mechanics kick in). People want a guaranteed win, so they will always want longer gens. They could make gens 500 seconds each, and people would still blame gen speeds the first time a game doesn't go their way.
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Except using perks like Bamboozle actually require you to think to use it effectively. A lot of these people slap on 4 gen perks and think that it'll win the game for them.
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Yeah I don't see any reason to play weaker killers at this point. The amount of basekit mechanics survivors got literally feels like you have to baby sit a sibling and make sure they have fun meanwhile any low tier just gets left in the dust. The build agency on low tiers is so obnoxiously bad if you don't want 2-3 gens popping by the end of first chase.
The only thing you can hope for is that they run to a resource dead zone but with like 50% of survivors running WoO its pretty much never gonna happen.-4 -
The first chase is incredibly important. That's just a core part of the game, especially for a killer like Ghostface. If the first survivor you target manages to outlast their stalk, the survivors are in a strong position, but likewise if you get a quick first down with the exposed the killer is in a strong position. That's just true on both sides, though I'm going to echo @AmpersandUnderscore that I'd like my chances of a comeback more in the killer's position off a bad start than the survivors.
To also say what some others already have, I never got the idea of the regression builds for comeback. Corrupt Intervention, absolutely, but the other perks require you to get hooks and Grim Embrace doesn't get much value if you don't spread hooks. If you aren't getting hooks it seems a really bad build to have.
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Corrupt is good but other regression perks are kinda weak/overrated, like grim embrace it's a dead perk if you can't hook all 4 survivors, pain res/eruption/pop are win harder perks they don't really help when you're losing, strongest is probably DMS but you can do better with info or chase perks
bamboozle almost mandatory for m1 killers, and you should try endgame perks it's really fun, I always play wraith with no way out + noed I get free kills everytime
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A lot of people mention more side objectives for survivor but the real issue is that bhvr is already "solving the problem" it just cost money in the form of new power creeped killers with cool powers and high mobility. And because this has been happening for literal years any game wide slow down is going to make games vs certain killers almost impossible. Really they need strategically placed buffs to specific killers. Wether that is trapper just spawns in with an extra 30 seconds on every gen to slow the game down. Or they just give low tier killers jet packs who knows but the game is almost unplayable at high levels with ghost face and Myers and it kinda sucks
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I wish I knew how to quote specific parts of a post, but it’s actually very common to lose 2 gens before getting pressure/snow ball effects going. For any killer without mobility, that’s expected, but does not mean the game is lost. I usually see a strongggggg comeback because survivor resources are depleting, people are pulled off gens for unhooks, heals, etc.
Early game isn’t usually any killer’s favorite time in the match. The issues you’re talking about now are the exact same issues spoken since 2016, sadly. Behavior toyed with implementing killer early game changes a few years ago, but they could never settle on anything and scrapped the idea.
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Thats dbd . The game is mega competitive and sweary for some reason.
Its Impossible to properly balance dbd.
Surv Nerfs Will make A- S tier killers unbeatable.
Killer perk Nerfs destroy killers belloemw A tier etc
Dms is alright on b tiers killers and overpowered on a-s killers
Id say, check your stats maybe you are above 70% kr and loses just feel bad. Yeah you LOSE games on ghosty but average survs are pretty bad.
If you go full gen regresso your looping Will BE BAD Scott jun did a vid about it.
get Chases perks. At least 1
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I do feel that gens fly by way too fast in matches, typically. But if gen speed gets nerfed, then so too does camping, slugging, and tunneling need to be.
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I don't think I agree with this, personally. On my end I never use full-slowdown builds and often don't have any gen slowdown perks at all, and while some games have gens fly by, it's usually the ones where survivors actually brought toolboxes to make that happen.
Broadly speaking I find it's useful to do a sanity check on two things:
- How much time are you wasting at the start of the match? Are you aware of where the survivors are and making a beeline for them, or are you having to look for them? It's a very easy mistake to make and can cost you dearly if you're playing a slower-start killer like Ghostface. If you have access to it, the perk Lethal Pursuer is extremely useful here.
- How much time are you wasting after a hook? Are you aware of where the survivors are and making a beeline for one, or are you having to look for them? This is an even easier mistake to make than the first one, and can cost you for similar reasons. A hook is the best springboard for pressure you have in the game because it can, if played right, force multiple survivors off generators at once— but playing it right requires getting into a chase pretty soon after you get the hook. The useful perks here are much broader than the first bullet point, there are a pretty wide selection of good information perks that can help you not waste time.
More specifically, I want to lightly touch on one thing, which is that I often see people cite Ghostface specifically when they're talking about this, and I think people aren't reckoning with the fact that Ghostface is a killer that is uniquely weak in this regard. His power is designed with a really sharp risk/reward, feast/famine element to it- if Ghosty isn't able to get the drop on people and mark them, he practically has nothing to help him turn a match around. Even Myers, his closest analogue, only needs to build a meter and can't have his power taken away from him- if he pops tier 3 that's a snowball opportunity on any survivor, and he doesn't need to be incredibly on the ball to do that the way Ghostface does + he isn't restricted to only having that shot on the one survivor who activated the power the way Ghostface is.
If you can't stay in Night Shroud and fully Mark someone, you are a powerless M1 killer. That's not really true of other killers, so the phrasing "low tier killers LIKE ghostface" kinda rubs me the wrong way.I'm not saying "don't play Ghostface if you want to win", I'm just saying that matches snowballing out of control is a problem Ghostface deals with even more than other low-mid tier killers. This is a weakness that he has, that you should accept is a risk when you pick him + maybe try and mitigate with perks, since regular chase perks help him out when he can't get a Mark on someone and certain other perks can help him snowball without needing his power as much.
The pool of viable killer perks/builds is larger now than it's ever been, but that doesn't mean just any old perk will work. Identify weaknesses in your gameplan, and pick your perks around that- to either bolster the strengths, or shore up the weaknesses.
Also, y'know. Nothing wrong with running a gen perk. They are pretty good.5 -
Thing is they are going to, but there's no mention about an Anti Gen Rush mechanic.
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I usually don't use gen perks, but since they buffed Build to Last FOR NO REASON and in the same patch they killed Franklin I had to put some gen defense in my builds.
Last Thursday I had five matches IN A ROLL that ended in less than SIX minutes because survs were gen rushing HARD and in two of them they finished 6 gens (finished 5 of course, but there was another gen above 80%)-2 -
Regression perks have been a placebo for quite some time now, most of them have no impact when it comes to turning a game around; they only help making a one sided victory even more so. Part of the blame is in the current instant-healing meta. Survivors no longer spend time on anything else than repairing. They rescue at the last second, heal instantly, and they are back at repairing. Their efficiency far exceeds any type of regression in the game.
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I basically just assume it's a lost game if I haven't hooked anyone by 3 gens.
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The important thing to remember is that the only thing that matters in the match are 2 things:
Objective Efficiency.
Exit Gates.
Firstly, If survivors do all the generators but perish in a heap - the feeling is moot. It's tempting to even say "The only generator that matters is the last one" to reflect the racecar idiom "The only lap that matters is the last one" - but it's not even true. If Dead By Daylight was a race, it would be one where you can stall to 0mph on the last lap and the opponent can cut across the field and instantly win. If survivors throw all of their eggs into getting the generators done as fast as possible but their buddies are still on the ground or hanging, they may not live long enough to escape. There is no free lunch - and if survivors are keen on completing the last generator when you only have 4 hook notches on your ring, that's not the end.
Secondly, most important, Objective Efficiency is what wins Survivors the game. Nothing else.
How many survivors are on generators at any given time. Nothing else matters.
Think of the trial less as a battle over generators and chase. Think of it more like a candle that is burning down a wick.
Your job is not to do anything but prevent that candle from burning all the way down to the base.
at 100% Efficiency all survivors are on generators doing repairs. The candle is burning as fast as it can
You chase one, that's 75%.
Chase two off of a generator, that's 50%. The candle burns at half strength.
Someone is on the hook, one person is going for the save while you chase another, that is 25%. The candle is a flicker.
One's on the ground, one's on the hook, and two are healing for the save play, that's 0%. It is a plume of smoke that might reignite.
The killer's primary objective is NOT to keep generators from completing, it is to reduce the Generator Efficiency to 0%.
Regression perks add more wick to the proverbial candle, but if survivors have high efficiency at 50-100%, they're going to burn through the regression and stalling perks. Saying "I have to add more wick, the candle is burning out too fast!" makes sense at first, but if you know how to snuff out the candle with a couple of licked fingers, the sentiment shifts under the weight of scrutiny.
If you chase one survivor for a ton of time, you let the candle burn down at 75% efficiency. Your job isn't to win chases or kick generators, it is to stop the fire from reaching the base. Every survivor that is not actively repairing reduces that flame by a factor until it is a smoldering ember.
Worrying about generators and 'comeback perks' and 'basekit generator elements' and what not is like stressing about the wick. Your job is not to address the wick - it is to kill the flame. 40% of the objectives done with no hooks is no reflection on you or your abilities; it does not define what your victory or defeat may look like. The primary issue with having a full regression perk is that you've placed all of your effort into playing DEFENSIVLEY - trying to add more wick or have a greater distance between the flame and the base.
But unless you are lowering OBJECTIVE EFFICIENCY by disrupting survivors - chaining chases together, pressuring hooks, proxying generators, forcing heals and health trades, you're going to be burned up in a flash. Survivors can bring things that can raise their efficiency above 100%, and you can bring things to lower it too - but the most important thing is to KEEP THEM OFF AND AWAY FROM THE GENERATORS.
My prescription for you is to play with no perks - or maybe 1 mild QOL perk like Brutal Strength or BBQ. You're going to feel very vulnerable and week for a few matches, but you will get into the flow of things and learn where to place your blades and when to twist it to make Survivors scatter.
Because you're trying to stop GENERATOR EFFICIENCY with REGRESSION - trying to kill a fire by adding more logs on it to burn. If you accept the challenge I propose and take a step back, you will learn how to nurture a candle's flame into smoke, and that is how you win and have fun instead of losing and stressing about it.
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The problem is the variety of situations the game needs balanced around.
Survivors need a reasonable chance to escape against all killers and all killers need a reasonable chance to kill survivors. As an example, take a Myers and a Kaneki.
- Slow things like gens down or shrink maps for the Myers and Kaneki will steamroll the same teams.
- Speed things like gens up or increase map size for Kaneki and survivors will blow through gens faster than the Myers can keep up.
Basically generators need to be realistically completable in the time it takes a Kaneki or Blight to locate and ping pong between gens and survivors. They also need to take long enough that a Myers or a Trapper have a chance to get downs, hooks, and sacrifices. These are completely opposing goals.
Personally I think reducing the effectiveness of stealth, reducing map size, reducing gen regression capabilities, speeding up gens, introducing hyper-mobile killers, etc. has locked us into a situation where there's immense downward pressure on match times and there's very little room to do anything but be hyper focused on your primary objective when you're playing against an evenly skilled opponent. The whole thing is basically balanced on the point of a needle right now.
I'd personally prefer slightly longer matches that don't require the precision of a Dark Souls game to not snowball for one side but that means adjusting both sides. There are no adjustments you can make to one side without having to also adjust the other - everybody would need to have their ability to progress their objective slowed down. At least with longer matches there are more opportunities to turn things around for either party.
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Gen regresso wont help if you take Forever to down someone.
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