The "death before 6 hooks" penalty wasn't thought through
"If a Survivor dies before 6 total hook states, all remaining Survivors gain a repair speed bonus for the rest of the Trial."
Did you guys forget you made a bunch of killers, like Sadako, Pig and Pyramid Head, that have alternate Mori conditions? I main Sadako, it happens fairly frequently that some survivors don't interact with tapes at all and I manage to kill them before I got 6 hooks as a whole. If they play badly, why do I have to be penalized?
Sadako's most interesting thing she has going on is her Condemn, and it works only if the killer plays well and outsmarts the survivors - but now I have to make sure I don't actually do that, else I might get penalized for using the power you guys made for this killer. She was purposefully made for macro play, her chase power is barely there (and that's good! I don't want to play a chase killer if I pick her) but now I have to go against her entire design in order to not be penalized.
I think the anti-slugging changes are amazing and most tunneling-related stuff is great too.
But this change (and the "no more gen regression" one) legit just turns the game into a round of babysitting. Tunneling is a problem, but the 6 hooks change barely even touches it; focusing on 2 alternate survivors isn't tunneling, why is it being addressed?? Killer now has to keep 6 different side effects in mind and play inefficiently, whereas the survivors have less things to think about that go beyond the useful and needed anti-slugging and anti tunneling.
My main and favorite character getting her power kit obliterated as a side effect just makes it even more of a obnoxious change, personally.
Comments
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As killer I mostly play Sadako and Pig and I am worried about this change too. I am pretty terrible but often get Condemn kills before 6 hooks. I can only imagine how often it happens for better players.
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100% agree. This is such a bad change and I pray that they see sense and don't make this go to live. If it does then Tombstone myers might as well be removed from the game cause anyone playing tombstone doesn't hook at all.
Honestly i get they want to address tunneling however all they are doing is making a worse game for survivors. You go from occasionally being tunneled out (be it a killer who wants to hardcore tunnel or…and this is MUCH more common, survivor induced tunneling) and now with the benifits killers are gonna get from not ever tunneling and spreading hook states its gonna make the experience worse for survivors i feel.
I can already see the forum posts now. "Killer buffs to strong"…"Roll back killer buffs just punish tunneling"-3 -
Not to mention there are just regular situations that do happen that make this change bad. What happens if the survivors leave their solo queue teammate (because let's face it no one is leaving their swf to second) who was hooked first to go to second? The killer can go after 2 other survivors and hook them before chasing that survivor again which is not tunneling and they'll get punished because they didn't realize or even forgot that survivor went to second? Like on paper, these changes are good and they honestly will do exactly what they say, but there's still situations that happen often where they will be abused or activated without tunneling or purposefully slugging. Also, about the slugging changes, did we not already do that years ago during the original finisher mori ptb and discover, "Hey this is extremely abusable and shouldn't happen" and the devs even agreed? Why are we doing that again? It's just going to be abused again.
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Killers: Matches go by too fast - why are the survivors rushing gens?
Also Killers: Why am I being punished for eliminating players from matches as quickly as humanly possible?! I want my win to happen fast!
-15 -
I think you answered your second hypothetical with your first question.
Killers typically tunnel one out to make the game last longer in order to get the other 3 survivors.17 -
- Am I complaining about gens being completed too fast? No, I've never done it either, what are you on?
- Did you read my post or did you come on here just to flame? My post is almost solely about killers who have alternate kill conditions like Sadako, getting a Condemned kill before 6 hooks could happen (and happens!) very frequently even when the match has been going on for a while. I would get punished for playing HER POWER well even if the match is reaching its end.
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As for the topic at hand, there is a bit of an irony to this that killers like Sadako and Pig are better off just slugging survivors on death hook instead of hooking them to delay the game enough to get the 6 hook requirement.
Thankfully bodyblocking off hook is being addressed, but as others have been pointing out, there are other flaws we will need to be testing heavily on the PTB.4 -
Tunneling one out right off the bat has nothing to do with making a match last longer and everything to do with drastically swinging the balance of a match to the killer's favor. No one tunnels to extend a match - they tunnel to win.
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I'm guessing Killers like Sadako and Pig that can instakill would have to be opted out of the system or maybe a lessened version like they did to mobility killers when getting unique hooks
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First problem is that Pyramid Head's mori only activates on death hook. So if that happens early into the game you were absolutely tunneling.
Second problem. Sadako can lock in condemned stacks by hooking survivors. So if you got a super early condemned kill one of 3 scenarios played out. You tunneled, you went a cheesy fast condemn build with a map offering, or you're playing against noobs. In the later 2 you probably win anyways given the circumstances. So what are you complaining about?
Post edited by BoxGhost on-11 -
Killers who tunnel every game fuming that you told the truth that tunneling snowballs a game in the killer favor.
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I love how you didn't actually address anything I've said, and just assume I tunnel people, but ok, let's address your points
1) First problem is that Pyramid Head's mori only activates on death hook. So if that happens early into the game you were absolutely tunneling.
Who said anything about it happening early into the game?? The new mechanic just needs Pyramid Head to mori the person who was last hooked, even if it's in the middle of the match and even if Pyramid wasn't tunneling, to give a permanent gen repair speed buff. It's problematic.
2) Sadako can lock in condemned stacks by hooking survivors.
I am a P100 Sadako, I know how she works. And I still don't understand why you keep bringing up "at the start of the game". There can be 3 gens left when you get a mori, and maybe you didn't get 6 full hooks as a whole. At times, as Sadako, you should focus on the condemn progress more than hooks, and it's perfectly possible to not have 6 hooks before you get somebody fully condemned.
Your point also conveniently leaves out that you could very well hook any time you can, but if a survivor plays badly and gets themselves condemned, you can't mori them yet or else his teammates get a buff. It's asinine, and completely unrelated to tunneling.
3) Pig being similar in that its either noobs or tunneling for a head trap.
I believe you genuinely didn't understand the patch notes at this point. Just like with Pyramid, all it takes is for the head trap mori to happen when that person was the last hooked for the punishment to trigger. This can happen when there are only 2 gens left and it just buffs the other survivors for no reason, without even necessarily punishing tunneling.
From your constant bringing up of "at the start of the game" it seems to me as if you don't really understand why I'm criticizing this mechanic, nor how it works at all. And it's fine, but you can at least reread the patch notes before commenting, and without being all smug about it.
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I feel the need to point out that Sadako's power is still fully in the survivor's hand, and if they get max stacks it's because they ignore the TVs which take 2 seconds to grab and negate for 70 seconds. If a Sadako gets an early condemned, it's really on the survivors, especially since you can SEE the TV auras when they're on and you're in their area of effect.
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Both are true. Very few Killers force the 3v1 early not to get the 4k, but it's the 3v1 that gives them more time to achieve the 4k comfortably.
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The further in a match you trigger the proposed effects the less impactful they are. Faster gen progression and not being able to trigger blocks or regression means a lot more at 5 gens than it does at 1 or 2. The proposed changes simply won't be as impactful in matches that have been going on for a while.
Being discouraged from focusing on and killing a single person early in the match - yeah, that's kind of the point. Do you think it's somehow less of a crappy experience for the player you're doing it to just because you're playing a Sadako and not a Billy?
Sadako is not incapable of getting 6 hooks in a match. She doesn't need to kill the person she just hooked in order to win. These are things you might WANT to do, but lets not confuse the two.
-5 -
How does Pyramid Head get a survivor on death hook and then mori them without hooking the other survivors to avoid the tunnel mechanic, and how is that any different than just hooking a death hook survivor?
You can't answer this question because all you know how to do is tunnel.
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by not finding another survivor before running into the death hook survivor?
why would you instantly assume malice?
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They're also handing out a free aura read that works similar to BBQ & Chili - I find it unlikely they'll frequently be unable to find another survivor. Stealth or being able to otherwise hide is facing a pretty strong nerf in this patch.
Aside from that though, intent doesn't really matter - it isn't less frustrating for the survivor if they didn't mean it maliciously.
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Also a very good point. If accidental tunneling is so prevalent, then the game should have mechanics in place to help prevent that.
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It doesn't really apply to Pyramid-head, and shouldn't apply to Pig. For Sadako, it would apply under a situation where it normally should anyway.
And we don't even know what this compensation speed is, it could be a complete nothing-burger.
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Right? Destaice is not even trying to argue in good faith here - I brought up points about all killers, and they just ignored all of them to tell me that I tunnel. I don't even play Pyramid Head…
"The further in a match you trigger the proposed effects the less impactful they are."
Are we arguing that a permanent gen speed buff isn't extremely significant when there are only 1-2 gens left..? That's my main point, it can absolutely be a game changer, and not necessarily deserved.
"Being discouraged from focusing on and killing a single person early in the match - yeah, that's kind of the point."
I never argued the opposite. However, penalizing a Condemn kill before 6 hooks (condemn depends on the survivors, it's not related to tunnelling nor hooks) is just unnecessary and harmful.
"Sadako is not incapable of getting 6 hooks in a match""
I never said that. But at times you might get a Condemn mori before you get 6 hooks
" These are things you might WANT to do"
I also never said that4 -
The buffs to survivor definitely seem excessive, but I think the repair speed bonus that survivors get if someone dies before 6 hooks is a good change imo. It's meant to balance the game when it becomes a 3v1. I imagine that the game will still be very winnable for you if you kill a survivor very early on.
I do however think they should not give the bonus if the survivors have a certain amount of gens done already. Seems silly that they could be on the last gen when the killer finally kills someone and then they get 20% bonus??
Finally, now that they'e addressing the 3v1 killer sided imbalance they do need to address the 4v1 survivor sided imbalance which they should have more options for now since they don't have to worry about excessive tunneling & slugging compounded with/exacerbated by any would be buffs to gen regression perks.-2 -
If they play badly, why do I have to be penalized?I have a feeling I'm going to be typing the following a lot on repeat over the next couple of days:
Unless the speed increase is massive, you still win out by getting an early kill. It's not quite as massive as it is currently.
You aren't being penalized, a certain strategy / game occurrence will be less powerful than it currently is.
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In most matches there is already one survivor dead by the sixth hook, even if the killer is not tunneling.
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Kinda. If noone is dead on the sixth hook, you playing suboptimal. But thats right now. The buffs for hooking different survivors, aims to change that. So we should wait for the ptb before we judge the changes.
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If BHVR really wants this, they can make it a perk.
Especially now with tunneling and camping not requiring your full loadout to be dedicated to it.
-1 -
"Unless the speed increase is massive, you still win out by getting an early kill"
And who says you got an early kill..?1 -
It's hard to split the hairs to find when this wouldn't beneficial for the killer. Even if there's only one gen remaining, a 3v1 is still preferable to a 4v1 (again unless the speed increase is massive).
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this is actually my only pain point with the patch. So if i need to kill someone with 1 or two gen i can't . Even more they can get off the hook and work on a gen in my face . Slugging is not an option and hooking them guarates his team the win because in a stalemate where i can't regress gens the survivors will always win. This i very exploidable.
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I agree, it’s the one change I’m really concerned about since if the no generator regression or blocking as well as repair speed bonus lasts all match it could encourage an extremely toxic playstyle where survivors just let the first survivor die on hook, depending on how strong it ends up being.
In a worst case scenario a SWF could make a 3 person squad and let the random survivor die.
I guess BHVR could make it so it doesn’t activate if the first survivor dies on hook although that could lead to different issues..
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Deaths being beneficial to the killer was always true and nobody is (nor should be) arguing that.
But this is ignoring the fact that the gen repair speed boost can be a game-changer that can be given at any time, and for no justifiable reason. This change has just too many "but"s, and the 6 hook limit doesn't even properly address tunnelling.
"Killing people would still benefit the killer" is not a good enough justification for a change that could negatively impact so many non-tunnelling-related scenarios.2 -
Let's look back to your post and what I originally quoted:
If they play badly, why do I have to be penalized?You aren't being penalized. You are still gaining, just not as much as you are currently. A game element is getting nerfed, its not that unusual and we won't know for certain the impact until BHVR gives us some numbers.
and for no justifiable reason.What is a justifiable reason? It's a video game. What's more justifiable then - we think this will make a better overall game.
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"Let's look back to your post and what I originally quoted:
If they play badly, why do I have to be penalized?You aren't being penalized."
Since my post is explicitly about Sadako, whose mori-fying power largely depends on survivor input, I'll better explain what is implied there:
1) Survivors screw up by not interacting enough / interacting too recklessly with tapes, their Condemn level raises
2) I manage to get the survivor fully condemned and mori them.
3) Their teammates now get a permanent boost to their gen repair speeds.
Points 1 and 2 are already possible in the current version of the game. Yes, when you add in point 3, you are adding an advantage to the survivor side / disadvantage for the killer that was not there before. I feel like that's an objective fact.
"But you killed a person, that is a bigger advantage for you" Yes! I managed to kill a survivor, which is my end goal as the killer, so I progressed on my one goal, and now I have one more thing going on for me. Just like survivors completing gens have one more thing going on for them. But it would be silly to have a non-perk, core mechanic that buffs the killer any time the survivors advance their goal, wouldn't it?
Yet we have it here in this Sadako situation: the survivors now have a random buff that they wouldn't have otherwise and is absolutely not related to the anti-tunnelling purposes it should have. It was explicitly designed to be anti-tunnel, but it punishes this (and many other) non-tunnelling scenarios. It is quite literally an oversight that affects something beyond what they planned. Hence I'm calling it not thought out well.
"What is a justifiable reason? It's a video game."
huh? First of all, when did I ever imply it's more serious than that? We're discussing the balance of a videogame on the videogame's forum. You're arguing that this change makes sense - you're literally providing what you think are justifications for its inclusion. And on my part I'm saying there are no valid justifications on a balance standpoint. What's the point of bringing the "it's just a game" card here..? I know..?"What's more justifiable then - we think this will make a better overall game.""
… yeah. and I'm saying that it wasn't thought through, because the change affects many situations beyond the ones that they planned for it to work on, and they were very explicit about it being an anti-tunnel mechanic.1 -
Ok what do you think about the Sadako thing that my post was about
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"The only way that Sadako or any of the other killers is getting a kill that early in the game is if they are tunneling someone out"
No, she can get a kill without ever hooking anybody with her Condemn. You can get to mori a survivor on your first chase with them if they played their TV tapes really badly, and it can happen quite often. That's how her power works, that's why I'm bringing her (and a couple of others) up specifically.
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the survivors now have a random buff that they wouldn't have otherwise and is absolutely not related to the anti-tunnelling purposes it should have.And whenever you hook a unique survivor you get a buff even if you weren't ever going to tunnel in the first place.
Basically, its not a penalty which is a word that is getting thrown around a lot. A nerf? Well, we need to see how powerful the unique hook benefits will be and compare the frequency of their occurrence vs when something like this would happen.
I have difficulty seeing it as a significant issue even for the killers listed, but even if it does become one its a relatively easy fix.
First of all, when did I ever imply it's more serious than that?You used the word justifiable which, to me, implied there was some deeper meaning then 'create the best possible game'. If that's what you meant, then great.
-2 -
"one in a thousand games that could happen"
You mean getting condemn kills when somebody isn't on their death hook? If you play well it's super doable, I often get Condemn kills when I have less than 6 hooks (and it's not the start of the game, usually 2-3 gens are gone by then). With Sadako you can apply deadly pressure even outside of hook stages (although obviously the optimal way is to mix them together)
"in reality every other game has the killer camping and tunneling"
Every other game? :)
Tunneling is a problem that needs to be dealt with, but I just can't believe you if you are genuinely telling me every single game of yours is against a camping AND tunneling killer. Mind you, I play survivor way more than killer, I always run DS because I hate tunneling and I have the DBD stats site to prove it as well - but people actually aggressively tunneling and camping since the start are undoubtedly a minority. I still think it's annoying as hell, and anti-tunneling/slugging mechanics ARE a good addition, but this specific one simply isn't, because it affects too many different situations and punishes the killer who doesn't tunnel in way too many occasions.
"I don't really care about some improbable scenario where the killer in all likelyhood is still going to win"
I mean at least you're saying explicitly that it doesn't matter whether it's fair or not to you - if the killer was winning, it's ok to add an unjust mechanic (also, it's not improbable at all)
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Yeah, that's exactly what I said, sure lol
There's no point arguing in bad faith, have a good day
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"And whenever you hook a unique survivor you get a buff even if you weren't ever going to tunnel in the first place."
Which Sadako doesn't get when she kills with her power. And yes, she'll get hooks as well and this temporary lack of the basekit BBQ is minimal, but my point here is that her progress towards the killer goal (killing everybody) during the match, will inevitably be different from every other killer's, because how her power was created.
Again, while I do have my criticisms with the change decision as a whole (another one I haven't written about is how these 2 changes are extremely specific, counterintuitive and particular that it will be a hellish source of confusion to new players), my post is 99% about this character (my favorite in the entire game, my most played killer), because she is a bit different to everybody when it comes to hooks and this new mechanic will affect her specifically in ways that do not seem intended/taken into account. My second killer main is Pig which is in a similar spot, although she's not affected as much as Sadako is.
I mean, I'm really confident they simply forgot this fact about the Onryō when making this change, after all she's not that widely played. Because just like the high-mobility killers won't get the basekit BBQ thing, or just like Oni got a change to his blood system after the slugging changes, I feel like (if they keep this 6 hooks change at all in) they should make an exception for special condition kills (this way, stuff like Sadako's Condemn and Hex: Devour Hope aren't affected in a unique, and most likely unintended way). I still think 6 hooks is a bit too much to solely and properly affect tunneling, but if they have to keep this in I just want them to take into account these special scenarios.
Regarding the justifiable thing, I understand what you mean now - but no yeah, I basically meant that word as "there are reasons that make its inclusion in the game make sense (from a balancing perspective)"
-1 -
Points 1 and 2 are already possible in the current version of the game. Yes, when you add in point 3, you are adding an advantage to the survivor side / disadvantage for the killer that was not there before. I feel like that's an objective fact.
But what you're missing is the overall picture. Yes, this situation is not as slam-dunk beneficial as before, but as long as the situation still favours the killer, you're not being punished.
This is happening a lot right now, where killers are arguing about positions that heavily favour the killer, but because they don't favour the killer as heavily as they used to, they're being framed as though they now favour the survivor.
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Perhaps her intended playstyle when they last updated her was to add stacks of condemned, hook, add stacks of condemned, hook, and so on, so that by the late game people are easier to get condemned kills off of more like pyramid head rather than just turbo condemn avoid hooking completely like most sadakos try to do.
To each their own ive never played sadako spamming tvs to get moris, i just use her on off stealth and tvs for mobility, which is why i loved the old version of sadako because thats all she was with a chance to condemn people to death very rarely.
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If the goal is to prevent players from being singled out, wouldn't the newly implemented Base Kit Babysitter be sufficient? Imposing penalties for eliminating players within 6 hooks would impact normal gameplay too. Just like the 3gen system.
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Damn, we have reach peak levels of survivor main mentality here. You can now tunnel without actually hooking someone.
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Yes a lot of things was ok or good but this one is just not good. Often it's hard even finding some players so ignoring the survivor you find just to avoid being punished for this "before 6 hook states" come on!
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This is one of the changes that I wouldn't be surprised gets dropped before going live
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I don't think this will be an issue at all. They could double survivors repair speed and a killer would still have an advantage in a 3v1. Unless the repair boost is extreme, a 3v1 is still an almost impossible to lose scenario. Like, genuinely ask yourselves, how often do survivors even complete a single gen in a 3v1?
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In games where there's only 1 gen left?
Depending on which gens were completed first, survivors can have fair chances of completing all gens at 3v1 when certain conditions are meant. 1v3 isn't auto-win or auto-lose scenario in DBD.
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There should be opportunity for the game to turn around.
-4 -
Well, with 4 survivors alive for longer the matches will go even faster since more people on gens = sooner they are completed. Also, if no one is hooked or slugged means there is even more free time to do gens.
If its not a hard tunnel - focusing entirely in one person until he/she is out of the game - there should be no punishment for killers.
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You're the second person to tell me I'm missing the overall picture without telling me why the picture should look like that.
This change (the 6 hooks thing) is a proposed anti-tunneling mechanic that disproportionately affects multiple cases where tunneling is not involved at all. The Sadako condemn example is one, but every single killer could get caught into this new mechanic without tunneling (very banal and common example: the killer hooks Dwight, Meg, Dwight, Jake and Dwight in this order. No tunneling involved BY DEFINITION, but this "anti-tunneling" mechanic activates anyway).
In this case, since this mechanic affects many cases that go beyond its intentions, why should it go into the game unchanged (either removed or tweaked in a way that it actually only affects tunneling)? You're not the first person to respond by saying "the killer still has an overall advantage" (which, by the way, is not necessarily true - imagine this happens 3 gens in and it's the first death. The killer is at an even bigger disadvantage than they would be in the current live status of the game) but you're actively dodging my question.
And if you do want this mechanic to go unchanged and affect these non-tunneling situations, why? What's the reason it would make the game better? And most importantly, why are you not advocating for the same mechanic that would affect the other side to get into the game at the same time?
A killer that gets no kills before 2 gens are done gets a permanent speed boost or reduced M1 cooldown. This is pretty much the equivalent of this 6 hook change with the roles reversed. The survivors still have an overall advantage - just not as big as before. Would you be fine with it? I think both this killer advantage example I made and the 6 hook change would be bad for the game if implemented, but at least if you advocate to add both at around the same time it's a coherent position that I can get behind. Otherwise it just feels biased, sorry.
I never advocated for spamming TVs without hooking, I even said that it's better to hook whenever possible earlier in this thread.
I understand you prefer to use her TVs for mobility, but one great thing about her is the you can in fact use her TVs strategically to quickly add in Condemn stacks (without spamming, which is brainless and in most cases just turns off the TVs while survivors smartly get away from TVs/turn them off). I always hook whenever I get a down, but if a survivor isn't playing their tapes in a smart way (and has some stacks locked in thanks to hooks) if played well by the killer it's really easy to get them out of the game before getting six hooks total. I just don't see why an anti-tunneling mechanic should affect this thing
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