http://dbd.game/killswitch
DBD is a ONE vs FOUR game
Across the internet in the discourse that is the PTB changes a common argument against the changes is that every killer except the top 5-10 will be unplayable as they cannot win games without forcing a 1v3. This is a confusing point because it's a 1v4 game. Being able to consistently force a 1v3 is inherently unbalanced and unhealthy for the game. If you aren't skilled at using your power or survivors are simply playing better, then you are supposed to lose.
It's okay to lose. Your priority as a killer should be figuring out how to effectively use your power to win the match. And sure there are a few killers who desperately need buffs or a rework. But if you cannot win vs 4 players with most killers then you're just not good at that killer. That's okay. Instead of freaking out about not winning, focus on getting better at using their power. Learn from the survivors who outplayed your power like how survivors should learn from killers who outplay them in chase. And at the end of the day, if survivors are the better players, why shouldn't they win?
Most of these discussions also included arguments about high MMR and that is confusing because they seem to think MMR is a mathematically perfect match maker and not jank. But if you want the game to accurately reflect your skill as a player then you should be playing on even ground as the survivors. Exploiting a broken design flaw to make the game near unwinnable for survivors regardless of their skill expression is not a reflection of your skill as a killer. If your MMR is low as a Hillbilly this may hurt to hear but that's where you should be.
You should be able to agree that consistently snowballing a game with little effort in your favor isn't fair gameplay. I'll agree that it's also unfair and unfun when you get genrushed into a lose first chase. Let's give catch up mechanics a chance to smooth out the experience without jumping to the conclusion that you'll never win as killer again.
Comments
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”Being able to consistently force a 1v3 is inherently unbalanced and unhealthy for the game.”
???
DBD is an elimination game. The goal is to eliminate people. In what world is doing so unbalanced or unhealthy?
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Sorry but your argument that this game is 1v4 can be used exactly to criticize those changes: Slugging and Tunneling ( and camping) can be countered easily within the assymetrical nature of the game. The best survivors know how to counter tunneling and slugging properly without the need of these changes, just with teamplay. Although this will help survivor in the lowest of the MMR, against medium and experienced players match will become hell, specially now that playing aggressive will reward survivors even more.
On higher MMR/experience levels, survivors and killers need to play on a macro strategy - considering the whole match, not a single chase or a survivor alone - to win. If you see good survivors, even when they play solo, they always try to mind what other survivors are doing while they are being chase to plan ahead how the match needs to go. Against good survivors you won't have time to spread hooks on the whole team, you will need to focus on 2 or 3 people to get a kill before the gens are done otherwise its a loss, most of the time. Having the killer to play "badly" on purpose - now you NEED to spread hooks, otherwise you will lose - while survivors can play optimally will just move people to quit killer or play Nurse, Blight and Kaneki.
Being able to consistently force a 1v3 is inherently unbalanced and unhealthy for the game. If you aren't skilled at using your power or survivors are simply playing better, then you are supposed to lose.
Sorry, but this is not true. With the Exception of Nurse - and maybe even her - you cannot simply force a 1v3 situation, you need to WIN some chases to get to a 1v3 situation against survivors. If you got to a 1v3 situation probably a survivor lost a chase or played badly/risky, didn't have any anti-tunnel perks to get seconds chances or - the most probably - their teammates screwed rescue, healing or even getting the aggro of the killer.
Currently, i agree that survivor has a problem but this is mostly due to lack of information on SoloQ. If we could see the perks of our teammates and have some sort of basekit info (see the perk of other teammates, Kindred, etc) i think the survivor experience would be in the perfect spot.
TL;DR : These changes hurt the assymetrical nature of the game, turning the survivor experience closer to a battle royal (1v1 against the killers) than a teammate action horror experience.
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"Being able to CONSISTENTLY force a 1v3…"
Stop filtering out words please. Not saying that's what's currently going on but It is a huge issue if most killer players are able to force a 3v1 consistently.
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The game is designed to get down to 1v3. Then 1v2. Then 1v1. That will consistently happen. It’s. An. Elimination. Game.
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And sure there are a few killers who desperately need buffs or a rework.I think this is an important point.
Any large game change is going to affect killers differently and inevitably there will be some killers who will slight to moderate drops in their kill rates. Those should be addressed.
But people seem to be acting like C/D tier killers are going to have a 7% kill rate after the patch.
The best survivors know how to counter tunneling and slugging properly without the need of these changes, just with teamplay.Great news then, killers are getting buffs when they are not tunneling.
Against good survivors you won't have time to spread hooks on the whole team, you will need to focus on 2 or 3 people to get a kill before the gens are done otherwise its a loss, most of the time.You don't have to spread hooks to the whole team. Even going to 2/3 on the hooks will give you a 3v1 and just one more hook for the 2v1 while the survivors just get a, almost certainly, a moderate gen boost.
Having the killer to play "badly" on purpose - now you NEED to spread hooks, otherwise you will lose - while survivors can play optimally will just move people to quit killer or play Nurse, Blight and Kaneki.Which is it for high MMR? Do survivors know how to deal with tunneling, or is tunneling the only way to win?
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You could at least try to engage with this honestly and in good faith.
In theory the gameplay dynamic is 1 survivor in chase, 1 is on hook, 1 is running to rescue, and 1 is working on a generator. You remove 1 survivor from this equation and the balance shifts drastically in the killer's favor. Obviously games don't play out perfectly like this but it is how the game is "balanced." Survivors doing well in chase get more gen pressure, killers doing well in chase stop gen progress.
Tunneling somebody out at the start of the game results in a completely 1 sided match that most survivor teams are incapable of recovering from. This is mostly due to survivors lacking any real communication. I think it's fair to say most people find 1 sided games unfun to play. And because it's a consistent play pattern is why I argue it's unbalanced and unhealthy.
You are not engaging in normal eliminations when you force a 1v3.
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That's where you're wrong. The game is designed to play like tug of war. Both sides have two opposing goals that is constant push and pull with each other. Killer isn't designed for the game to inevitably dwindle down into a 1v1 nor is Survivor designed for the game to eventually end up in a 4 out. If all Killers are able to consistently get to the 1v3 especially so early on in a game then you would be playing an elimination game.
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If you aren't skilled at using your power or survivors are simply playing better, then you are supposed to lose.
By that logic all survivors who complain about killers killing them are massive hypocrites cuz the killer was simply their better by killing them. After all, if you arent skilled at evading getting killed, you're supposed to lose.
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Yes survivors who whine and throw a fit when they don't win are annoying. What does that have to do with gameplay balance?
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- Killer will just get the bare minimum while survivors get a lot. I wouldn't think this would be a buff, specially considering you will need to lose time kicking gens to get some value of the "buff" (lets see how this will be implemented).
- Yeah but if you kill someone with 6 hooks or least you will be punished. There will be plenty of scenarios where you could kill someone with 5 hooks without tunneling but you will need to avoid it depending on how strong the gen buff will be.
- Experienced survivors know how to play around tunneling, that's why they don't need these changes. Good survivors will know how to delay a death - or even prevent it. What doesn't mean the 4 will be forever in the match, considering the objective of the killer is to take people out of the match. I'm not advocating that hard tunneling is a good strategy - never said that, LOL -, but there will be a point in the match when people need to get out. Getting someone of the game before all gen ends is the natural course of the match. What is not natural is getting out of your way to spread hooks to avoid a penalty. If you get to the last gen with the 4 survivors alive most of the time you will lose.
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According to the devs themselves it's not a 1v4 game it's actually 4 1v1s so this argument actually doesn't hold according to the devs themselves. A killer tunneling someone out is actually the killer winning one of the 4 1v1s according to the devs.
Here is them talking about it: https://youtu.be/Pz7f_WPutq8?si=VjNqFkdhFPIPPgDx&t=1521
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What we're seeing primarily, in my opinion, is the ripple effect of trying to force the game into a competitive box. The game has always been PVP and therefore has always been competitive, but not competitive. MMR set the tone for how to play and then the 6.1.0 patch enforced it. All the way up to anti-go next, they've enforced that. I think this is the first time in over 4 years that they've truly made an effort to say that there's more to the game than kills. And you know what, I'm not at all surprised that players are finding it incredibly hard to adapt.
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Killer will just get the bare minimum while survivors get a lot. I wouldn't think this would be a buff, specially considering you will need to lose time kicking gens to get some value of the "buff"We'll see in a couple of day.
But saying you don't get value out of the gen kick buff is like a survivors saying the heal buffs aren't buffs because its better to just stay injured and slam gens. It's a discussion of value sure, which gets a lot more complex on different playstyles.
Yeah but if you kill someone with 6 hooks or least you will be punished. There will be plenty of scenarios where you could kill someone with 5 hooks without tunneling but you will need to avoid it depending on how strong the gen buff will be.And even if this happens the killer got buffs for the unique hooks even if that was the way they were going to play.
If you get to the last gen with the 4 survivors alive most of the time you will lose.Broadly speaking, you should, but you still have a chance.
If the survivors lose someone early they will still almost certainly lose. Which is fine. But these changes will give survivors a chance. Which goes back to the OP's point about about needing to play all four survivors. Just eliminate one and win is not a good game.
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A lot of killer mains cannot accept that "it's okay to lose" part, yet survivors are expected to just die over and over and be fine with it. I'm totally cool with losing to people who were better than me, regardless of which role im playing. It's impressive and they deserve the win.
Yet as killer, I can often beat better players with just luck, perks, or a small map. As survivor, beating a genuinely better killer is damn near impossible. More often, my team gets wiped out by a killer with worse skills than all of us. But killers seem to feel they deserve kills just for existing.
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No, the problem is that Survivors want to have their cake and eat it, too. They don't want the killer to be strong in the individual 1v1 chases, because "it feels bad. What about muh counterplay! Every power needs a 5 second chargeup complete with visual and audio cues that make it easy to dodge!"
They also don't want the killer to be strong in the overall 1v4. Gen regression? "Gens are boring. Having to redo lost gen progress feels bad." "It feels bad to get taken out of the game early!" "It feels bad to get slugged on the ground!" "It feels bad when you get proxy camped!"
The problem is, 90% of the killer roster is too weak in the 1v1 to win in the current DBD meta against decent survivors without slowing down the 1v4 in some way. They literally cannot get downs fast enough in the 1v1 to keep up in the 1v4 macro gameplay. Maps are too strong, survivors have too many second chance perks, and their powers have too much counterplay for experienced survivors to get hit with consistently. So these killers, like Dredge, Legion, Demo, etc, have to make up for their lack of power in the 1v1 by playing well in the 1v4. However, BHVR has systematically gutted every slowdown perk over the past couple of years. Now, they're removing the other two methods killers have to slow the game down.
The mid to low tier killers will be unable to compete with decent survivors if the 9.2.0 patch goes live. They will have to rely on survivors making massive mistakes in order to secure wins. The people playing these killers will either swap to better killers that can compete, swap to survivor, or will leave the game altogether. Nobody likes to play a game that they're predetermined to lose.
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And killers are always crying about OTR, DS, DH, every exhaustion perk, parties, bully squads, comms, items, gen rushing, syptics, big maps, etc. Everyone complains constantly. It goes both ways and this us vs them stuff is mad tedious for those of us who like both roles. I like doing gens and have no issue with regression but yeah, I've had killers make me lay on the ground for four minutes until I die. I've even had killers AFK with me laying at their feet. There's no equivalent stripping of agency for killers by survivors.
But are you actually arguing that powers should have no charge up and no sound notification and just be free hits? Like of course counterplay needs to exist.
I kinda feel the devs have better data about where the numbers are than random people on the internet. They're reworking Myers. They'll likely rework others to shift things more evenly if it's needed.
No one likes to play a game they're predetermined to lose? That's how survivors have been feeling forever. Just look how people talk about the role on this forum. The general consensus you see here is everyone prepares to lose every match. That's how I feel too, but I don't feel that way as killer.
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Something has to give somewhere. Killers either need more power in the 1v4 or more power in the 1v1.
They're not going to buff every killer up into S tier, which is what they'd have to do if this patch goes through.
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yet survivors are expected to just die over and over and be fine with it.One of the best recent changes was the abandon system were survivors were thrilled that they could lose without it being so boring.
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This is almost certainly going to be an evolving process. And a much needed one because much of the gameplay has become stale. They will likely keep doing what they're planning to do by buffing some killers basekit but not the stronger ones.
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And how long will that take? How long will it take so that 90% of the roster aren't "I Lose" buttons against survivors with more than 100 hours?
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The amazing survivor buffs lol. No chance to come back from the four-person slug but you can just leave, I guess.
There was quite a bit of excitement about the very mid fog vials and we've seen how that went.
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That's a really drastic number assumption. You think 100% of the players playing 90% of the roster were tunneling and slugging? Because that's not my experience.
The only high mobility killer I use is Dracula. Otherwise I play Wesker, Plague, Doctor, Myers. I wasn't tunneling or slugging and I'm not worried about any of them. I'm just getting buffs.
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Good post. I play Pig, Myers, Freddy, Chucky, and (to a lesser extent) Wraith, Demo, and Xeno. A few of which are generally referred to as weak in the community. I dont tunnel, and I win most, draw some, and lose some. Of course I get very difficult games at times, of course it is disappointing to lose, but the better player/s come out on top and that's simply what it comes down to in a game. When you acknowledge this fact, it's actually incredibly easy not to tunnel. It doesn't even cross my mind. The game is not designed for folks to 4k every single game, so yes, you are going to have strong opponents every now and then.
I hope the devs do see these changes through to live. I hope that they help highlight any flaws or killrate discrepancies that strats like tunnelling have helped hide in "weaker" killers.
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Then you're either playing at low mmr, or you're losing a large portion of your matches in about 5 minutes.
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60% KR (ya know, the devs goal number) so probably mid range. I get great teams and bad teams. My matches are often long and grueling actually. I'd post the 20-30 minute times but the match history part of the stats page hasn't worked for me for killer matches in some time.
I'm not sure why MMR is always where this discussion goes. What's even the implication? That the tiny fraction of killer mains in the top 5%-10% are the only players that should be considered when changes occur and all the low, mid, and casual players who make up the vast majority are just screwed?
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also not at all conssistent if you can play survivor well . There are perks which are great anti tunnel . Anything outside a top 5 killer which do need changes can be looped until your team wins if you are good enoufh.
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"You're new/get bad survivors/low MMR" is always used to dismiss the experiences of other killers by people who dont like what you have to say. They have no more proof that you are low MMR than they have that they're any higher.
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It's been a real popular fallback around here lately, for sure, and the way everyone feels entitled to maintain an 80%+ KR is wild. If you're so good, do it without cheese tactics.
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Because survivor skill levels vastly change between MMR levels. So your wins against mediocre survivors aren't due to game balance, but because of survivors messing up.
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You'd be alot more aware of survivor mistakes, and learn to capitalise on them, if you developed more game awareness instead of relying on tunnelling. No one plays a perfect game.
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Good survivors can't be beat, ergo, if the survivors lost it must mean they weren't good.
Its unfalsifiable and working backwards from a conclusion.
You can show your own clips. You can point to Nightlight. You can point to long streamer sessions using weaker killers or giving themselves multiple handicaps and doing just fine.
It doesn't matter, the conclusion has been established. Some people aren't looking for evidence, they're looking to have their opinions reinforced.
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