http://dbd.game/killswitch
So erm.. in next patch, if Killer lose 3 Gens for just one down, the match's basically over?
So Killer has 1 hook, with only 2 gens left. How are you going to comeback from this? You can't kill anyone before 6 hooks, otherwise your opponent gets buff.
So basically the first chase determines the whole match?
Comments
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Tbh the gen bonus speed probably wouldnt matter that much if you kill a person at 1 gen.
You can dan Camp the 2nd survivor if you get a hook at end game collapse.
-2 -
Pretty much. It's just one of the many glaring flaws in their idea.
This system won't matter at first (very very low MMR) but the moment that games start to become harder and Survivors take full advantage of long chases, then comebacks (especially for slower/M1 Killers like Trapper, Nemesis and Pig) are going to be nearly impossible.
I'm sad to say this, but it would be smart of BHVR to start working on Killer bots for all Killers since there might be a rise in Killer DC when the early-game goes badly.
Fixing those flaws would be rather simple, but I guess we'll see.
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You can't kill anyone before 6 hooks, otherwise your opponent gets buff.
What repair speed bonus offsets a dead survivor?
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If tunnelling is still the best answer, then what's the purpose of this patch?
-2 -
There's added bonuses for not tunnelling and more off-hook protections that combine into this, you know?
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I wouldn't say over, but definitely harder. You'd still have two gens + endgame to play for, so it's doable, but very tight.
It's important to remember two things, though.
1: The game doesn't end if you get these penalties. It could be that a repair speed bonus to the remaining survivors is a worthwhile trade for getting someone dead, or it could be that a dead survivor is worth trading away no longer damaging gens - it's a choice to make here, rather than a hard requirement to go for someone else.
2: The game has changed such that losing three gens in your first chase is a lot less common now. There is a degree to which that is a skill issue a lot of the time, and that's a good thing - it means it's in your control to try and stop it. I'm not saying nothing remains in the game that can force this bad start, toolboxes and toolboxes specifically are still unbalanced in this regard, but it's not nearly as bad as it used to be.
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This is something that BHVR needs to look at before the changes go live. All the anti-tunneling stuff should be disabled once 3 gens are completed. I think that would be a very good compromise. The anti tunnel is meant to discourage killers from tunneling someone out early in the game when it’s not necessary. Later in the game it is far more justifiable and should not be considered “tunneling” at that point, especially if the killer is losing badly and can’t do anything else to secure a kill.
-11 -
Survivors get no catch-up when their teammates die, why should the killer? Especially since the killer can snowball at any point, unlike survivors?
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I don't get these posts, you have 1 hook with 2 gens left and you still think you deserve your free 4k ? if your first chase was extremely long maybe don't commit so hard, you're getting outplayed why should you win the game ?
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Um, survivors won’t get a catch-up mechanic when their teammates die in the new update?
I’m saying that the catch-up mechanic should be disabled in late game. Definitely with only 1 gen left, maybe 2? If killer has fewer than 6 hooks with only one gen left, then clearly the survivors don’t need an additional buff at that point. In this situation, please tell me what is the killer supposed to do to secure a kill and maybe put some pressure on the survivor team other than try to go for whoever has already been hooked twice? Even comp level players have to resort to this in late game if they are losing badly.
The point of the anti-tunnel should be preventing killers from cheaply eliminating survivors early in the game. Now it seems that the goal post is moving and the demands are going way beyond that. I’m talking about late game here, survivors have all had plenty of time to play and now killer has to do something to try to salvage the match. At this point it’s not “tunneling” anymore and it’s ridiculous to say that killers still should be penalized for trying to secure kills.-4 -
If you want to keep tunnelling in your back pocket as a means to turn around a losing match, what comparable thing do survivors get?
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Can you show us who asked for a “free 4K” if they are losing that badly?
-9 -
Survivors are getting a mechanic to turn around a losing match. That’s the anti-tunnel. Killers aren’t getting any built-in mechanics to turn around losing matches, so the only thing they can do if they are losing badly is adjust their playstyle to try to secure a killer and put a bit of pressure on the survivor team.
Remember, I am only talking about late game situations in which most gens are done and killer has few hooks. Are you really arguing at this point that it’s still unfair for killers to try to eliminate a survivor? If so, I would love to see how you handle this type of situation in your own killer matches.
I play both sides about equally so I am not trying to argue in bad faith here. I want both sides to be enjoyable and feel fair to play. I’m totally fine with the concept of preventing early game tunneling, but totally not fine with putting restrictions on how killers can play late game when they’re trying to salvage a losing match and the survivors have already had plenty to time and opportunity to have a fun and enjoyable match.-3 -
Survivors are getting a mechanic to turn around a losing match. That’s the anti-tunnel.
What if they're losing without tunnelling involved?
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You can't kill anyone before 6 hooks, otherwise your opponent gets buff.I don't understand how many people are making the connection between 'can't' and 'opponent gets a buff'.
Anyway
If you are tunneling, your chances have gone done in comparison to what they currently are, but no one knows how much yet
If the survivors leave the person hanging and then you get a second hook, your chances have gone up compared to what they currently are because you just got a free buff, but no one knows how much yet
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Killers constantly comeback and get free kills in endgame it's pretty common, sometimes even 3-4k, so again you're beating a dead horse. If you lose 4 gens in your first chase maybe you deserve to lose at some point, move on you'll do better next game
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I get your point - if killer is losing badly they can try to tunnel to secure a kill but if survivors are losing badly in a fair match they don’t have any strategies or mechanics to try to secure an escape. Am I understanding your point correctly?
I would say hatch is the main mechanic for survivors who have lost to try to secure an escape. Hatch isn’t a guaranteed escape, but tunneling also is not a guaranteed kill.
-6 -
True, Hatch can allow an escape, but by definition it won't turn a game around anymore. Tunnelling still can.
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To be fair, there's a middle-ground between "free 4k" and "guaranteed loss". Neither of those should be a thing.
Imagine this;
You play fair and try to spread your hooks, the Survivors are putting up a fight but the match isn't a curbstomp either. By the time one gen is left, 3 Survivors have been hooked once and one is on 2nd hook (or any variant of 5 hooks & 0 kills) and they got themselves in a tight 3-gen. This is a kind of situation that isn't that uncommon in matches where both sides are somewhat equally matched and the Killer didn't just decide at 5 gens that the first guy hooked wouldn't get more than 8k BP.
You can't hook and kill the Survivor on 2nd hook yet, otherwise the remaining Survivors get a gen-speed boost and there's only one gen left.
If you hook one of the other Survivors in your 3-gen (which means that they will likely be in sight so the HUD misinformation won't do anything, and it's another thing that shouldn't go through to live) and you can't completely prevent an unhook (either because of playing a weaker Killer or the Survivors simply being coordinated and/or good) then you have little choice;
Hit the unhooker? They'll zoom in an empty corner of the map and by the time you catch/down and hook them, the last gen could be done.
Go after the unhooked Survivor? You can, but not only is it harder (no scratch marks/noise/blood/aura due to Elusive) but if you do get them quick then you lose gen slowdown (as the wording in the patch note doesn't say the loss of regression & gen-block is tied to hook states, only the gen-speed boost is tied to killing a Survivor at 6 or less hook states. The loss of regression & gen-block is tied to a Survivor dying after being hooked twice in a row.) and even if only 3 Survivors remain (more than enough if 1 or 2 gens are left) then there's no way to slow down gens and Survivors can simply do the gens bit by bit and pre-run safely since their progress is permanent and the Killer can't afford to stray too far from the 3-gen. It's a lose-lose situation and those should never happen on either side (which is why, among many other reasons, the first try at basekit Unbreakable was rejected almost unanimously by the community).
Sure, the top-tiers could deal with it, but we're trying to keep variety in the game. Lack of variety is one of the reasons (among others) why every other assyms around DBD dies.
In short, while the idea is noble, the execution is clumsy and heavy-handed and doesn't account for situations where "tunnelling" is objectively the best option but isn't done maliciously or so early that the player spent as much time in lobby than in game (as quite frankly, tunnelling at 5 gens isn't "necessary", very effective sure, but not necessary.)
Players don't mind getting tunnelled in endgame that much, it's understandable at that point even if it's obviously not pleasant. Players want to be able to play the game longer than the time they spent in lobby. If the "Anti-tunnel" measures deactivated after 3 gens are done then it wouldn't be as bad since at 2 gens remaining and 5-6 hooks & no kills, the game is tight but not yet lost for either side even for mid-low tiers Killers.
It's a similar reason why so many people object to basekit Unbreakable; it creates lose-lose situations and it doesn't only address the most common and annoying cases of slugging, which is slugging the last two to avoid Hatch and team-slugging/bleedouts. If "basekit Unbreakable" only kicked-in in certain situations (if only 2 Survivors are left or everyone is slugged at once, both of those being the worst kinds of slugging) then there would be way less backlash against it.
The core ideas aren't bad, but the numbers and executions are crucial to determine if it will do more harm than good. The PTB and Live release will show us how much effort and thought were put in those mechanics. There's also the perk changes (currently unknown) that will likely affect this to some extent.
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You can't hook and kill the Survivor on 2nd hook yet, otherwise the remaining Survivors get a gen-speed boost and there's only one gen left.
Quick correction: The repair boost is for kills -before- 6th hook. This would be the 6th hook and thus not trigger the repair bonus.
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Correct, my bad.
Although, it doesn't change that if you tunnel at that point and the Survivor dies, then you lose all ability to regress/block gens, which is still overkill.
Still, the point stands: at that point in the game, tunnelling is understandable since it's a tight game and everyone had their chance to play an almost full game.
-5 -
I mean knowing bhvr and killer mains doomposting right now, the "6 hook state" thing will be nerfed before live anyway, so in effect what you get with these changes are only buffs if you don't tunnel… and slight inconvenience if you do
it's all overreacting me personally if I get 8-10 hooks and only 1 or 2 kills I'm ok with that it's a good game, if I get 4k it's great too, problem is this community will do anything for a 4k even slug for minutes and hard tunnel the "weak link", devs have to do something at this point
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Oh I agree that there's some overreacting going on, but there's a lot of valid and nuanced worries around.
Honestly, it's not just "Killer mains" that are against this (or at least against some parts of these changes, like myself am not a Killer main, nor a Survivor main, and thinks that parts of those changes are flawed) lots of people that aren't Killer mains are skeptical of these changes due to how much they'll change the game's flow and how much the mid-low tiers Killers will be way more affected. Even Survivor mains don't want to see nothing but high-tiers.
And quite frankly, with how much anti-tunnel and anti-slugging has been requested since day 1, I doubt that BHVR will back off that much unless there's some major backlash (like review-bombing and playerbase freefalling stuff). This is happening, but the community has to be loud and clear enough to make those measures only affect the worst cases without affecting normal gameplay as much as possible.
-5 -
Did I mentioned I want free 4k? I just want the game not straight out 3-4 Escapes when I make mistake in VERY FIRST chase. Same as Survivors getting 4k if someone got tunnelled early.
If losing 3 Gens for 1 hook means 90% of the time it'll be 4 Escapes, I might as well go AFK because what's the point of playing it anymore? Getting T-BAG in exit gate, ggez, and got called baby killer?
-6 -
I'm just going to point out that survivors spawn together now, and have to travel to reach separate gens. And since you don't want to do adjacent gens immediately, you may have to go a ways for that.
You know how "weak m1 killers" apparently can't take the time to cross the map? Survivors are even slower than that.
And gens take 90 seconds.
So, in this hypothetical scenario, the question you should be asking is why is it taking over two minutes for the killer to locate someone, and finish one chase?
Because lethal pursuer solves a significant part of the time waste up front here at minimum.
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I'm kinda confused about this scenario too and it keeps coming up. You can usually tell what gen they'll likely spawn near and stupidly hop right on, as most people still aren't spreading out. I usually have 2 or 3 unique hooks before a single gen is done and I generally play low-mobility killers, or teleporters whose power doesn't kick in until I've already walked across the map anyway.
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2-3 unique hooks before a single gen is done? Are you playing full slowdown build, or just having 10k hours in this game?
I can confidently tell you my experience, I didn't bring any slowdown perks, and 90% of the time at least one gen's done when I got my first hook.
-4 -
My hours are low, compared to most. I'm not even good. Very average. But playing surv kinda helps me know what people will do.
I don’t run slowdown, no. Maybe Pain Res sometimes but I don't love those kind of perks. I run mostly Lightborn, BBQ, Iron Grasp, Nowhere to Hide, Tinkerer, Awakened Awareness. So info perks, and ones that let me hook without sabos. I'm big on knowing where to go next.
I only really have that experience on a good, coordinated team. But if someone is clearly skilled I'll drop chase immediately and go for another. I do a lot of hit and runs too. People get extra cautious when they're injured and it slows things down.
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No. But honestly, if you lose 3 Gens before you get a Down, this means that you spent more than 90 seconds in that one Chase. This is quite long…
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This has nothing to do with killers wanting to 4K every game, or even a "free" 4K. They just don't want to be a punching bag for SWFs, nor do they want to have their MMR tanked because they can only scrape a 1-2K before the gates are opened. Like what's the point of playing any killer below B-tier if they're punished for getting a kill before six hooks? Killers that have alternative kill pressure, like Sadako and Pig, will be dead in the water. Trapper would also be heavily punished because most survivors have no situational awareness, and will constantly go down because they'd keep stepping in traps.
Basic M1 killers who can't take advantage of the haste and base kit pop incentives will have no reason to cross the map to pressure gens, because they'd potentially lose their buffs before they can make use of them.
Sabbo squads, with the base kit unbreakable becoming permanent after 90 seconds, could quite literally force the killer to slug them to be able to pick themselves up and continuously disable hooks for 3 minutes. Stack on top of the Lithe+Sprint Burst+Vigil stacking and any killer below B-tier or even a new A and above tier, as I said above, becomes a punching bag for bully swfs and TikTok compilation videos.
Remember, this game lives on its killer player base. If killers are punished even for basic gameplay mistakes, be it their own or the survivors' misplays, they will leave the game because there won't be any reason for them to play killler. Why stick to a game where you're not having fun, or your fun is halved at the expense of others?
-4 -
nor do they want to have their MMR tanked
This is such a bad argument. MMR is nothing which should be the goal of the game, MMR is not what players should aim for. MMR is in the game for matchmaking purposes and nothing more, it is no prize or anything. Losing MMR is also not a bad thing or anything.
And I would argue that people who heavily rely on tunneling already are at a too high MMR, because it is very easy to play the game when you tunnel as Killer and more Kills means more MMR-gain means stronger opponents. You can basically tunnel your way through higher MMRs until you face teams which are so good and actually deserve to be at that MMR, who will wipe the floor with you.
OPs example is perfect for this - if you lose 3 Gens in your first chase (which btw. does not mean that the game is lost, because you cannot see any Gen as equally important, but I know that this is something which people just dont understand), this means you have spent more than 90 seconds in that one chase. And considering that the average Chase time PER Survivor (not per Chase, per Survivor) is 70 seconds, if you spend 90 seconds to down one Survivor, you are clearly not good enough for the MMR you are on, which you only inflated with tunneling in the first place. (to repeat - 70 seconds average Chase Time per Survivor is downing a Survivor 3 times… so spending 90 seconds for one down is very bad)
I know I get Downvotes for this, because the truth is hard. But come on, people can at least try to think sometimes.
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I don't think a gen repair speed bonus is your biggest concern if you lose 3 gens in 1 chase.
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losing 2-3 gens in the first chase is not an uncommon event
-8 -
How are you coming back from that situation regardless? Clearly if you have one hook and 2 gens left you already did a lot wrong. You most likely got a bad MMR match up or are in properly placed in your current MMR and losing games will fix it.
The current system is bad for killers... Being able to "take off the kiddy gloves, to turn a game around means you shouldn't have won the match. And you are artificially boosting your MMR to the point you feel every match is a losing prospect because your not able to keep up.
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So your point? Killer players are not allowed to make mistake and have bad start? Or are you just wanting to shame for no reason?
-2 -
No, I am just saying that a chase of 90 seconds is just too long. As I have written in my other post, we have stats that at high MMR Chases are 70 seconds per Survivor. If one chase takes 90 seconds, you are already way longer than three chases on one Survivor would take you. And then… Do you really think you deserve to win when you take that long? When you take that long to down someone, you probably tunneled a lot and got carried into an MMR-Range you dont belong.
So no, I dont want to shame for no reason, but I also dont sugarcoat that you are the best player in DBD when you "only" take 1 1/2 minute to down someone.
Post edited by Rizzo on3 -
I'm sorry but if you lose 3 gens before getting your first down, the odds of you winning that as a Killer are slim to begin with, this patch doesn't change that
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While I do agree that some people lean hard on tunneling, I think the word "deserve" is a bit of a strong/rich word when we have such a glaring disparity in killer strength...
Who deserves to win more?
- The Nurse who downed their first Survivor in 20s?
- The Dark Lord who downed their first Survivor in 30s?
- The Huntress who downed their first Survivor in 40s?
- The Cenobite who downed their first Survivor in 50s?
- The Legion who downed their first Survivor in 60s?
- The Trapper who downed their first Survivor in 70s?
I would argue I'm more impressed by the Legion/Trapper in this case. The fact is a weaker tier killer cannot really tunnel effectively without camping nearby, and if you're camping, you're losing the game assuming survivors don't all come off gens and waste time staring at their teammate on hook.
Returning to hook/camping and hardcore tunneling is a privilege of fast killers who are also highly lethal to reliable crush through Survivor defences. An m1 killer trying to tunnel is flipping a coin on the Survivors skill, perks, and the general awareness of Survivors towards cranking gens.
So I do agree with you that strong killers can artificially boost their MMR by tunneling... but weaker killers... nowhere near as much.
-2 -
I mean what would you tell a survivor team that had 6 hooks at 4 gens. They just made a few mistakes? It's just a bad start. But fact of the matter is they are that far behind there shouldn't be a system to catch up easily.
Killer at least has the advantage of shrinking the play area as gens get completed so with some nice moves and shady tactics you can still get the 4k who cares about regression at 2 gens.
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Oh, weaker Killers can also totally boost their MMR by tunneling. You have a weak link in almost every team, once you tunnel those out, Gens are slowed down A LOT. Everyone can do Gens, you can be the worst Survivor in chases and go down in 10 seconds every time, but if you are left alone and do Gens, you contribute to the team. If you are tunneled out however, this is one person missing on Gens. Let alone that many Survivors are not efficient and dont spend their time outside of chases solely on Gens.
And I feel that weaker Killers will in the long-term benefit from the fact that tunneling is harder. Because I feel that weaker Killers can make the game way more forgiving when they can tunnel someone out and turn it into a 3v1. I mean, if we take a Killer like Wraith for example, who is not weak, but also not one of the best Killers, you can get vastly different results when you tunnel and when you dont tunnel. And yet, his stats are totally fine, mainly because tunneling exists. But maybe Wraith is a bit worse than it seems, because if you take away those matches where the player tunnels, he might struggle more than it seems.And this would lead to changes to Killers (and nobody can deny that BHVR in the end tries to make weaker Killers feel better, even if it takes some time).
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To give some semblance of balance to early 3v1s. They're currently broken. People are completely overlooking the fact that a 3v1 with multiple remaining gens is almost impossible to lose as killer. There's currently zero downside to tunneling early. It's not a strategic decision. It's the easiest possible way to win a game.
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Anyone who actually runs into the really strong groups knows this change is insanely bad, and vs some teams you basically click ‘ready to lose’ with most killers in the roster
So yup: we’re compressing the meta even more into ‘top killers only. For me its nurse then at this point.
And then I’ll slug and tunnel on her—not that I even need to on her, still doin it then) —because this community asked for it. You wanted fewer options and less killer variety? I’ll use the one that ends games clean and fast.
-8 -
The point isn't that it is best answer, but the fact that with all of the stacking preventions and punishments for killers that tunnel (which is IMO NOT merely hooking the same survivor back to back. If you go to the other side of the map and do a generator, then we meet up later, I am not tunneling you even if I haven't managed to hook someone else in the meantime but oh wait apparently I am tunneling you according to BHVR now) means that survivors will absolutely be able to abuse the F out of this. While I would never do so on live servers (I am a Killer main) I have many horrendous ideas of how to do so on the PTB for testing purposes.
You will be literally able to complete generators in the killer's face and they can't stop you. Slug you? You get right back up. Hook you again? They just hooked you back to back, they get punished. Actually kill you? Major punishment for the rest of the match (sure you are out of the game, but especially if you are with that dreaded 4 man SWF, that's fine… you're helping your friends even in death.) So, they just have to let you do the generator.-3 -
Slug you? You get right back up.
After spending 90 seconds incapacitated.
Hook you again? They just hooked you back to back, they get punished.
There's no penalty for back-to-back hooks.
Actually kill you? Major punishment for the rest of the match
Except there's no numbers and it's still a 1v3.
The problem is that all of these scenarios get compared to the exact same scene under current patch, but that's omitting that this scene doesn't play out at all in current patch.
Survivors run. Loop. Waste your time. These 'abuse' scenarios miss that that -has- to be sacrificed as well, further shifting the balance of the scenario in the killer's favour.
Sure, you can just do the gen in the killer's face. But if you give up on that chase, that's a ton of time saved for the killer.
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Exactly. Tunneling is no strategic decision, there will never be a case where not tunneling is the better option, even with all the defenses against tunneling which are currently in the game. You can hit into Endurance, get stunned by DS and still all of that is better than going after a different Survivor.
The only reason why we dont see tunneling in every game is because not everyone wants to play optimally and prefers to go for multiple Hooks. But those people also know that they are not playing in a way which would give them the best chances to win.
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So unless there are no consequences to playing oppressively in a way that is unfun for one side then you're threatening to what - just do something that you think is the same thing anyway? Let me tunnel people out at my leisure as killer x or I'll tunnel people out at my leisure as killer y?
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Fear-Mongering non sense. Not only does the slugging timer take 90 seconds to activate every down takes an additional 30.8 seconds to get your self back up. If for some reason you can only find the same person over and over slug them kick the gen and find the next player? Trust me this is not viable strategy for survivors to win lol... Waste 90 seconds on the ground to then waste 30 seconds each down as the killer has a what 2-3 second attack animation? Terrible trade off run infections fright after downing some one to reveal their friends. You need less slow down perks and information perks with the buffs you getting from the update.
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that's the neat part you don't
-6 -
or you're playing Trapper and need time setting up.
-1 -
Sure weaker killers can tunnel a weak link, but the same is also true of stronger killers, they too can also tunnel a weak link, and the difference is a weaker killer evetually drops off.
The fact is there comes a point where weaker killers cap out and simply continuing to tunnel doesn't keep working... you'll get 10s chases against a bad player sure, but that will become 20, 30, 50. You start finding that what was once easy to do gets harder and harder especially when you start facing survivors consistently bringing meta perks who have the skill to use them effectively. Inevitably you have to start taking killers who are better at it.
It's the same phenomenon as NOED. You often see killers who are really bad and get cooked all game and keep falling back on NOED. It works for a while, but when the start hitting Survivors who know what they are doing, their ace falls flat more often than not.
The fundamental issue I have with these anti tunnel and anti slug chases is they basically enforce a playstyle skewed towards mobile and lethal killers. This works well for killers with those type of powers, but doesn't for killers that don't.
Taking Wraith as an example, he excels at hit and run, and can tunnel when needed... but he's still fundamentally an M1 killer that players who know what they are doing can cause a LOT of problems. So how would we buff him? Faster uncloak speed? That would work... but it becomes stupid and boring, like Clown and his rework. These changes for unqiue hooks do benefit him, but fundamentally Wraith is mostly the same style of Killer as Blight. Move across the map fast, slight startup to having a fast moving hit, able to return to hooks to tunnel and play hit and run... jjst Blightbis better at it all. The only way to bring him up is to make him obnoxious, he's effectively as good as his power could realistically allow him to go without being ridiculous.
Wraith is a bad example though because he does synergise with and benefit from these changes, but what about Hag? She doesn't benefit from aura read or basekit Pop at all. So what buffs are you going to give her to fit into this new world order? I feel Hag needs a score of changes (mostly to addrss sher camp playstyles and alike), but those changes should retain Hag's Identity... and these proposals do not synergise at all with her power. Hag doesn't get to choose who walks into her traps, it's entirely on Survivors to play careful and not allow her to tunnel without it being very costly for her.
On the other end of the spectrum, does Nurse really care if Survivors get a gen repair bonus? Or can't regress Gens anymore? Does she care if they get basekit Unbreakable? Good Nurses often kill everyone at 4 Gens anyway, she isn't gonna give a damn about killing someone off when she's already ahead even with the penalties.
The big fear on everyone's mind as Killer, is you have killers that fundamentally are incompatible with these proposals. Do we completely rework Sadako and Pig, and turn them into diacount Freddy and discount Chucky? Or more realistically, do we switch killer to keep up? If I can't capitalise on Survivor mistakes when I get the chance, and I can even get bullied by Survivors who are untouchable because of these changes, it seems the answer is, "screw your main, we never liked them anyway".
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