9.2.0 | PTB Patch Notes
Comments
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watch this video BHVR, I honestly might quit the game if these changes go through and a lot of other people will too, this video explains exactly why in very perfect detail
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This was such a. Good analysis
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You want to remove the hooking process, a huge part of the gameplay, in exchange for certain players being deincentives (but not stopped) from using certain tactics?
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BHVR wants to massively lower Tunneling AND Camping AND Slugging, which collectively is a way way way bigger part of gameplay. I think it's completely fair for killers to get their slugging frustrations fixed too.
If BHVR is going to tell killers that slugging is bad, and they should hook survivors instead….. then it's completely fair for BHVR to actually help killers to hook the survivors.
Killers should only be punished for slugging if it's the killer's choice to slug, and remote hooking would ensure that it's the killer's fault if they slug. Keep in mind that killers would only get this option if they were spreading hooks, so killers would have to earn the ability by "playing nice".
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Hooking is supposed to be a challenge. I don't like hook denials, but you also don't get the hook just because you got the down. If someone brings Boil Over and I can't get to the hook, I dump them on the ground. Sucks, but they outdid me with a perk. Likewise, when someone tries to blind me, they can't, because I have Lightborn. Sucks, but I outdid them with a perk.
But these are not comparable. Hooking is something that occurs in 99.99% of games. It's what you're supposed to do. The only ones where it doesn't occur at all is if the killer is outrageously toxic and let's everyone bleed out. Slugging, tunneling, and camping aren't built-in the way hooking is, and aren't even common in comparison.
I mean, talk about handholdy. I don't know what is more handholdly than an instahook.
-1 -
My impressions after playing on the PTB yesterday;
The Tunneling-reduction and Slugging-reduction mechanics, as currently implemented are A) too punishing to the killer for merely doing their objective, even when not tunneling, and B) easily exploitable by the survivor players.
One of the most notable experiences I had on yesterday's PTB was the following.
This team's strat was, after the first person got hooked (well call them Surv. A), while I was chasing a different injured survivor (Surv. B), they'd run Surv. A in to follow us, wait for me to down Surv. B, then the previously hooked Surv A. would dive in and start the pick up action in my face. If I downed Surv. A, as I should, they'd both immediately try to crawl on top of each other, trying to force me to pick up Surv. A. Meanwhile, a third survivor (Surv. C) would wait nearby to sabo while I assume the fourth was banging out gens (given how fast the gens were flying).
Why you ask?
--If I hook the previously hooked Surv. A, the team leaves Surv. A on hook to die, and I can't regress gens because they died and were the last one hooked.
--If I do nothing, Surv. A picks up Surv. B literally in my face.
--If I manage to pick up Surv. B, Surv. C is ready to sabo while Surv. A crawls away where I can't find them and gets up.
So far I've seen some iteration of this kind of strat, whether through sabo or flashlight teams, in the majority of the killer games I played yesterday, and it was only day one of the PTB. Folks downplaying the severity of these changes are doing themselves and others a disservice. These changes force killers into lose/lose situations even when playing fairly, and arguably especially when they are playing fairly.
Hell, Otz posted a clip where he had 7 total hooks at 1 gen left. He stumbles on the survivor who had just been hooked working on a gen with a lot of progress, downs them, hooks them, and boom. The gens block and he can't regress them. He had been playing fairly and spreading hooks throughout the match, too.
Do not implement these changes BHVR.3 -
A follow up observation;
I also saw survivor players have already figured out how to abuse the "no-collision-after-unhook mechanic." Before the PTB, I believe it was Scott Jund that suggested it might be possible for the survivor with no collision to try and force the protection hit against their basekit unhook-endurance be getting "pixel perfect" inside the unhooker's hit box. It turns out, it's actually really easy for them to do.
The way it worked was, I hooked a survivor, and a second survivor runs in to farm them in my face. So, trying to avoid any tunneling mechanics, I choose to chase the unhooker as I should, even going so far as to walk through the no-collision survivor since they can't body block me (finally and thankfully) and I can chase the person I'm supposed to.
Instead, the unhooked survivor uses their unhook-Haste effect to outpace me, and run in the other survivor, forcing me into a situation where I have to either hit the one with no collision and both survivors run off while I'm stuck in the wipe animation, wait 30 seconds for their new basekit haste and endurance to go away just so I can hit the unhooker, or drop chase and try to find someone else.
This team repeated this about three times through the match, and on the second and third time even as I tried to outjuke them to get the hit on the unhooker, my attacks seemed to default to the one with no collision. I do not know if that was some sort of auto-aim mechanic, something to do with the overlapping hit boxes, or what have you.2 -
You really think that remote hooking would be a bigger change than all the camping, tunneling, and slugging changes of this patch? Really?
You honestly don't think that all of these camping, tunneling, and slugging changes are a big deal, and they aren't massively affecting the killer's gameplay?
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Very much so, yes, but I don't think they're comparable at all.
You play survivor, I know that. How often do you see hard tunneling and hook camping? Returning to the hook, yes, but outright camping? It's not super uncommon, but it's certainly not every match. And you can still return to the hook, you just have to remember where it is for yourself and check on it. And you have to go for the other person, which will be an easy choice, because they're the only one leaving marks now.
Now how often do you see hooking? Just about every match. How often does the hook denial happen? For me, as surv, not much, cause no one I play with is big on saves. As killer, it's rare for me because of Lightborn. I made the decesion to use a perk slot to not have to deal with saves.
And tunneling, slugging, and camping aren't going away. You can still slug, they can just [eventually] get up. You can still tunnel, your just gonna pay for it. And you can still camp. Not much has changed there if you keep the hook in sight.
Massively affecting the killers gameplay? How would anyone know when they haven't gone live yet? I think it will make some players adjust their gameplay, sure. But I'd rather adjust my gameplay as killer than be slingshotted back to the survivor lobby with 5k points or lay on the ground for minutes at a time with zero recourse.
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Either slugging is bad, or it's not bad.
It's a massive double standard to say "slugging is bad when it negatively affects survivors, but it's awesome when it negatively affects killers"
And hook denial would still be in the game, for the killers that choose to tunnel survivors.
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I would trade no basekit pop+bbq for no antitunel+antislug right here, right now, in a second
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I never said it was awesome. Being on the ground for 90s isn't a benefit. It's still gonna suck, it's just not utterly hopeless now and you might be able to comeback from it. Killers can still slug for their own benefit. The survivor on the ground isn't doing anything useful. Repeated slugging with still cause a bleedout.
Remote hooking is too much like special events and totally lacks thrill. 2v8 is already a mindless actionfest. I don't want regular mode to lose all of its soul. We're already getting dsngerously close with so many basekit perks. It's like having built-in classes.
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theres a reason your getting downvoted to hell…
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So the massive camping, tunneling, and slugging changes don't affect the game's "soul" at all, but the killer being able to counterplay slugging is the game "losing all of its soul"?????
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Again, not everyone uses cheese tactics. But everyone hooks.
How does a killer counterplay slugging? Are survivors slugging themselves?
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Survivors can force the killer to slug, and the killer sometimes has zero counterplay and is just forced to leave the survivor slugged on the ground. If slugging is really a "bad thing that needs to be fixed", then this slugging scenario should be fixed too.
Otherwise, we are just sending the message that the problem isn't slugging, and that the problem is that slugging is negatively affecting survivors.
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So you mean the same scenarios as I mentioned, like Boil Over in dead zones, sabos, and flashlight saves?
According to my stats, my most used perks (by a huge amount), are Lightborn, Awakened Awareness, and Iron Grasp. I clearly don't like hook denials. But I choose to deny the denials with my build. And I accoet that denials are built-in with perks, toolboxes, and flashlights.
Before you hit me with, "You can counter slugging with perks too," the two sets of perks that do these two different things are totally different in strength. Unbreakable is one time use. No Mither has a massive downside. Boons can be easily snuffed. And even if you add Soul Guard, you're still going to likely get downed again pretty fast if the killer is commiteed to slugging. If they'd buffed anti-slugging perks by making Unbreakable endless and Soul Guard longer, we maybe could have not done this.
Meanwhile, there's nothing survivors can do to combat that trio of perks I mentioned and they're not even meta. You are simply unable to stop me from getting this hooking every time with zero downsides for me.
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Guys relax these are QoL features. They are not balancing changes…Devs are looking specifically at anything implemented that drastically changes kill rates and in a negative manner. More than likely these changes will not be permanent.
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It's possible to have the killer player experience to be completely miserable, and still have approximately a 60% kill rate. And that really feels like BHVR's current strategy. Giving survivors massive quality of life boosts, and then pretending that the 60% kill rate is their special gift to killers.
Some scenarios are literally impossible for the killer to hook the survivor. It doesn't matter what your perks are.
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That would be so insanely rare with a build devoted solely to traveling to the hook. Again, not equivalent. I don't just get a lengthy slugging at least once in every batch of survivor matches I play, but I also get bled out regularly. Four minutes on the ground is much worse than losing one hooking out of dozens or even hundreds.
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Therefore, the anti-slugging changes are way more impactful to the game than remote hooking.
And therefore, remote hooking isn't anywhere near as big of a change as the anti-slugging, anti-tunnel, and anti-camping changes. It's not that big of a deal, compared to all the stuff BHVR wants to change this patch, and therefore it won't "remove all soul" from the game.
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I'm really saying the same thing over and over here.
Getting the person to the hook is part of the tension. Laying on the ground is the opposite of tension.
Every killer-player hooks. Not every killer-player slugs. Remote hooking affects every single player and every aspect of the game. Anti-slugging affects everyone, but only at specific times and in small ways, and revolves solely around killers who slug. And not even that drastically, because 90 seconds is plenty of time to pick someone up.
You aren't even going to feel these measures if you don't perform the actions. That's not the case for remote hooking.
This isn’t a fixation I've seen before. What has happened to make you not want to travel to the hook?
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Honestly, there's too much to say about that update to really explain everything wrong with it, so I'll just leave this here until I muster the energy to make an essay myself.
This, while made in an angry state after a miserable experience in the PTB, is by a very experienced player & content creator (I'm sure many here are familiar with theMrHeadache, one of the best Xeno mains and creator of the Xeno guide, he was one of the most thorough critics when Xenomorph was almost gutted a while ago but didn't lose his mind and start throwing accusations either while giving suggestions to try to follow BHVR's reasoning for the changes while not gutting the Killer.) who played the PTB a lot and, in the span of a single day, was unfairly hit several times with lose-lose situations and weaponizing of the new measures (among other issues).
I'll just put a two cents: Even now in Live, when I know the general hook states of the Survivors thanks to the wheel and hook progress bar, when I try to purposefully go for 8 hooks & no kills I sometimes kill someone by accident because I forgot their hook state (especially if I end up against duplicate characters). People who want to tunnel aren't stopped by being misled by the HUD delay in the PTB, they proxy-camp and see the unhooking anyway. If you want to make accidental "tunnelling"/accidental early kills less common, then the HUD should do the opposite and show the Survivors' actual hook states. Again, a Killer determined to tunnel won't bother trying to do mental gymnastics to remember hook states anyway.
Edit after announcement: Good, it's back in the oven and those changes will come back later, polished and hopefully not being so heavy-handed and affecting non-tunnelling situations. There were some good ideas in there, but there was just not enough polish put into this first attempt at anti-slug and anti-tunnel. I honestly believe that such major changes should have their own PTB and not be overshadowed by a new Killer/Survivor(s).
Post edited by Skillfulstone on1 -
It's literally the double standard of being told that slugging is bad, but only when it negatively affects survivors.
It's literally the double standard of being told that when slugging problems that negatively affect survivors are a MAJOR PROBLEM that needs big solutions, but slugging problems that negatively affect killers aren't important at all and killers should just deal with them.
If "tension" was so important to this game, then there shouldn't be anti-tunneling changes at all. Lowering the amount of tunneling lowers the amount of tension for a large portion of the game, because the survivors don't need to worry as much about getting removed from the game early.
The anti slugging changes also remove tension, because currently there is a risk that the killer could slug all the survivors, and win that way….. but with basekit unbreakable, the survivors don't have to worry anywhere near as much about that scenario, since they'll be able to pick themselves up if the killer takes too long. That's called removing tension away from the survivors.
Camping also creates tension for the survivors, because the survivors might worry they might not easily get a safe unhook.
The main difference is that when tension negatively affects survivors, it's bad and needs to be removed. But when tension negatively affects killers, then it's an important part of the game that needs to stay.
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Cuz it's a dumb irrelevant pedantic bad faith point?
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Tension and frustration aren't exactly the same thing. Chases are still tense. Hookings are still tense. Trying to finish a gen while a terror radius grows louder is still tense. If anything, slugging will be more tense for both sides because its not so one-sided. Killers will have to worry about losing their slug; survivors now have some hope of getting up but it will still be tense because you don't want to be found. And 90s is a long time.
But what is even comparable to slugging and tunneling by survivors towards killers? There's nothing a survivor can do to incapacitate or remove the killer's agency short of bully squads, who are too uncommon to base the game around and can be still combated.
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https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/1n8j6rb/the_worst_part_about_otzs_showcase/
https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/1n87152/this_update_does_not_spark_joy/
https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/1n7qxtv/i_dont_think_he_likes_the_new_changes/
It is interesting to see the posts on Reddit regarding the PTB vs the posts on the Official Forums.
With such a divide in commentary and perception across various platforms, I am genuinely excited to see what the final decisions are!
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And here's the main issue.
You purposely define problematic behavior in a way that can only affect survivors, and then claim that is proof only survivor issues are important.
Because really, what people care about are things that are FRUSTERATING. That is the main thing that connects camping, tunneling, and slugging. And similarly, being forced to slug is frustrating for the killer.
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Because survivors have been stomped for so long that it's just accepted and addressing it with any sort of objectivity seems impossible for many people, even people that play the role. I go into my survivor matches with a fatalistic view. I expect to die and am surprised if i don't. I don't bring that view to my killer matches. I'm surprised when I lose. This is a problem. I should be able to feel equal about both roles since I understand both roles equally.
I don't know what's going in your matches that's not going on in mine. But again, I stop hook denials myself. The most frustrating thing in my matches is endless exhaustion perks letting people just zoom away from chase.
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The kill rates are supposed to eventually be the same before and after this patch, so fixing any survivor issues won't actually help a fatalistic view.
Instead, it would just shift what you're upset about. For example, if BHVR moves the kill rate back up to 60% by making maps much worse for survivors, then you'll just be fatalistic about the maps. If BHVR moves the kill rate back up to 60% by super buffing generator regression, then you'll just be fatalistic about generators. If BHVR moves the kill rate back up to 60% by buffing the killers themselves, then you'll just be fatalistic about the killers themselves.
-1 -
Reference. There are also regional differences. In Japan, over 90% of players, regardless of platform or killer/survivor main, are upset with this update.
To begin with, the complexity of the game system has made it tougher for beginners, killers are finding it harder and harder to win matches even with advanced players, solo players are being intentionally abandoned, and some survivors are abusing the system and using themselves as bait and provocation because they are intentionally ignored by killers even when a hung survivor is spinning a generator in front of them. Some survivors exploit the system to repeatedly provoke the killer by taking the bait themselves.
The game has already collapsed.
Many people have declared that they will quit DBD if this content is implemented in the game as it is. Negative opinions from beginners to advanced players are in the majority.
Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
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I'm fine with uneven maps. I'm fine with gens taking longer. Regression doesn't even need a buff. The overall time could be increased, and if people want to devote their builds to speeding it up, they can. And some killers absolutely need buffs, if not total reworks.
But I can't even TRY to win if I'm slugged. I'm not asking for free wins. I want matches that feel fair and close. 60% is fine, I just don't think that percent is evenly spread. There are people with 80%-90% KRs acquired through cheese tactics. Then there are killer-players under the 60%. They need the new buffs to move up.
In my killer matches, everyone is usually around until about the same time, because I spread hooks. Everyone gets time to engage. I prefer to see everyone have 20k+ points on the scoreboard. But other killers are fine with sending someone out with a less than 10k score. The fatalism isn't just about losing. It's about feeling like you didn't have a chance to play at all.
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And you can still feel like you had a chance to play as survivor, if killers were able to remotely hook.
Your definition of what is fair to survivors, doesn’t require killers to manually hook survivors.0 -
Thanks for providing a new/regional perspective.
I appreciate you taking the time to translate your thoughts to share them with me :3
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You keep circling back to this remote hooking thing that isn't even on the table. It's like saying I want all killers to now be able to fly, which has nothing to do with any of the upcoming changes that are probably going to be obliterated anyway.
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I learned a lot of opinions from the URL you posted here. Thank you very much.
I'm sorry if the translation is strange because I'm not good at English.
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Let us face it: the best thing to happen at this point is that this whole anti-tunneling and anti-slugging thing gets postponed. It needs a rework, maybe even scrapping stuff partly or fully. But that is not the only reason.
The main reason I see: I have never witnessed the community being more divided by pending gameplay changes. I have also never seen more people all across the internet who claimed they will quit this game. That alone shows, that changes like these should be well-thought and be done very very carefully.
On top, after the last days I came to my personal conclusion, that the issues which mechanics like the ones on the PTB would address, do not even exist in this form.
Regarding the slugging: since the introduction of the abandon feature no one gets bled out for 4 minutes anymore as a whole group. Lying on the ground for 10 seconds or under a pallet is not slugging. The new changes but even consider the time someone lies on the ground, getting healed as slugging. This is ridiculous.
Regarding the tunneling: the only issue is HARD-TUNNELING. And this is not an issue of the game, but the players who decide to do so. The new mechanics will not change that, players who hard-tunnel will cobntinue to do so, because they do not care if this is unfun or feels bad.
Soft-tunneling, accidental tunneling (you just cannot find someone else for whatever reason), situational tunneling (securing at least that one kill in a bad game) or tunneling the guy who "just runs around in front of you all the time trying to shred your nerves" should NOT be punished at all under any circumstances.
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Let us face it: the best thing to happen at this point is that this whole anti-tunneling and anti-slugging thing gets postponed. It needs a rework, maybe even scrapping stuff partly or fully. But that is not the only reason.
The main reason I see: I have never witnessed the community being more divided by pending gameplay changes. I have also never seen more people all across the internet who claimed they will quit this game. That alone shows, that changes like these should be well-thought and be done very very carefully.
On top, after the last days I came to my personal conclusion, that the issues which mechanics like the ones on the PTB would address, do not even exist in this form.
Regarding the slugging: since the introduction of the abandon feature no one gets bled out for 4 minutes anymore as a whole group. Lying on the ground for 10 seconds or under a pallet is not slugging. The new changes but even consider the time someone lies on the ground, getting healed as slugging. This is ridiculous.
Regarding the tunneling: the only issue is HARD-TUNNELING. And this is not an issue of the game, but the players who decide to do so. The new mechanics will not change that, players who hard-tunnel will cobntinue to do so, because they do not care if this is unfun or feels bad.
Soft-tunneling, accidental tunneling (you just cannot find someone else for whatever reason), situational tunneling (securing at least that one kill in a bad game) or tunneling the guy who "just runs around in front of you all the time trying to shred your nerves" should NOT be punished at all under any circumstances.
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Let us face it: the best thing to happen at this point is that this whole anti-tunneling and anti-slugging thing gets postponed. It needs a rework, maybe even scrapping stuff partly or fully. But that is not the only reason.
The main reason I see: I have never witnessed the community being more divided by pending gameplay changes. I have also never seen more people all across the internet who claimed they will quit this game. That alone shows, that changes like these should be well-thought and be done very very carefully.
On top, after the last days I came to my personal conclusion, that the issues which mechanics like the ones on the PTB would address, do not even exist in this form.
Regarding the slugging: since the introduction of the abandon feature no one gets bled out for 4 minutes anymore as a whole group. Lying on the ground for 10 seconds or under a pallet is not slugging. The new changes but even consider the time someone lies on the ground, getting healed as slugging. This is ridiculous.
Regarding the tunneling: the only issue is HARD-TUNNELING. And this is not an issue of the game, but the players who decide to do so. The new mechanics will not change that, players who hard-tunnel will cobntinue to do so, because they do not care if this is unfun or feels bad.
Soft-tunneling, accidental tunneling (you just cannot find someone else for whatever reason), situational tunneling (securing at least that one kill in a bad game) or tunneling the guy who "just runs around in front of you all the time trying to shred your nerves" should NOT be punished at all under any circumstances.
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Still the main issue with Hawkins is the windows and falls. They suck. It's balanced landing/lithe heaven. I feel like the pallets wouldn't be such an issue if they weren't backed up by the windows. Especially that god window in portal room.
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The upcoming changes should be obliterated.
None of this was ever about the game feeling more fair… is always always about the game feeling more fair FOR SURVIVORS ONLY.
It was always about survivors getting massive massive changes to help them out, and killers getting absolutely garbage in return. Killers get nerfed BBQ that can be easily dodged and often shows zero survivors, they get nerfed Pop, and they get a bit of haste that's not enough to actually get to their next target. It's absolutely insulting that is considered a fair trade for completely changing camping, tunneling, and slugging.
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Rewarding players for proper behavior is always better than punishing them for behaviors you don't like. I love rewarding killers for unique hooks, but those rewards need to be more universal and consistent. I would have preferred a small yet permanent boost for each unique hook, such as fire up, but toned down, and each unique hook is a token. It speeds you up in little ways and universally helps every killer. The unhook intangibility, tunneling punishment, etc, nearly everything else discouraging tunneling feels unnecessary to me when you could just reward killers for healthy behaviors you want to encourage. This would also help killers out and help to balance out the anti-slugging changes.
If killers want to tunnel they have got to find the survivor first. If an experienced survivor gets off hook, they're going to lay lower for a while to spread hooks out, run off somewhere and heal, and spend a bit of extra time to account for that. Outright enforcing anti-tunneling is too big a survivor buff (as it gives survivors more time and flexibility), makes the game less interesting, and overall feels overcomplicated. The anti-tunneling reduction update could make tunneling impractical with one simple and effective change. Having a consistent reward for unique hooks is easy to remember and tutorialize as well.
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I can't fathom how 2 pallets at this tile is intended. It's giving original PTB Decimated Borgo where every pallet would spawn, that was confirmed a bug
So how is pallet density update intended?2 -
That too, but people underestimate the pallets on Hawkins. I agree though .
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Erm, I want to apologize. I have 0 clue why my post above is there three times. 🤨
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It was a good post though
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After playing the pth more here are my thoughts.
30 seconds of God mode is too long, reduce it to 20.
Anti slug timer should reset each time a survivor goes down (keeps Oni and twins viable)
There should be no basekit tenacity and passive recovery
The anti tunnel penalties for last hooked should not apply if the survivor does a conspicuois action, Is healed, or takes a protection hit. (If you have time to heal or do the objective you aren't being tunneled. And if you take a protection hit you are weaponizing the system and deserve it)
Basekit pop should be total gen percentage not current percentage
The hook limit for the gen blocking should be 4 or 5 not 6
8 regression limit should be removed
Most of the regression nerfs should be reverted or not as extreme (if you make pain res 12% remove the tokens)
Make DMS a hybrid between its current time and the old effect (multi gen blocking)
Make vigil 30-40%
Meyers: don't do this. It kills his identity.
New killer and survivor: nice, perks are underwhelming, but the new killer seems fun and the survivor is cute.
Overall this ptb is a major miss. Please listen to the feedback on this from us
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Bear in mind, these are pros / this will probably not apply to normal people - Perk Restrictions apply.
Post edited by Raccoon on0 -
Because survivors need help. There's been constant complaints about loss of agency through cheese tactics. Killers are doing fine. They have plenty and are getting more. And all the values from whatever survives will change anyway.
-1 -
The changes made the rest of the game almost pointless.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DbDKillersUnited/comments/1n8wsza/the_endgame_is_the_new_battleground_the_rest_of/
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