The disconnect between Behavior and their game has never been.....
The disconnect between Behavior and their game has never been so apparent, This PTB has some of the worst ideas to stop a "problem" aka Tunneling/Slugging, with out the understanding on why at high level play these things are needed so immensely. Look game balance isn't easy, and lets not pretend it is, however this isnt balance at all, its just punishing one side immensely while giving benifits to the other side, even in the dev notes they say for slugging " but we also know that sometimes it's the smart move." , and what they say for Tunneing is "It’s no secret that tunneling can be seen as an efficient way to play for Killers."
So let me get this straight, because one side (killer) is playing smart and efficient, they are now being punished so hard that the game can become just unplayable? behavior claims they know these strategies are "Smart and efficient, but I don't think they understand why? I will tell you. Generator speeds have become so ridiculous that solo gens can be pushed in about 50 seconds, don't believe me? Look up videos all over social media Facebook, youtube, tiktok and you will find several examples, and when 1 chase can last over a minute, especially with all the new chain pallets you added in "dead zones", we finally knock the survivors down, then wipe your weapon for 3 seconds, then take the extra 3-5 seconds to pick up that survivor, and take another 10-15 just to hook them we have an average of 76 seconds of chase, down, hook which 3 other survivors are doing actions together or seperate with adds up to 228 seconds or 2 minutes and 48 seconds divided between 3 other survivors, and this means for 1 hook, 3 to 4 gens will be repaired against a good team. Its very common that the "3 Gen" that was a "Problem" that you all nerfed because of 1 killer that could have been reworked is now spread out and is now impossible to manage due to the IMMENSE size of Maps is now a lost game.
Lets start with slugging
Slugging
Behavior has already created a mechanic which allows the survivors to just rage quit the game with no consequence when the team is slugged or they are being mori'd last, They can keep their bloodpoints and go to the next game without frustration. So now that they have added in 2 new base kit perks to survivors even though they already had options to deal with slugging (and they are way to good imo) , 90 seconds in the grand scheme of things isnt much time at all, take the example about an avarage chase can take up to 78 seconds start to finish, so that 1 slugged survivor in this example only has to wait 12 seconds after one chase to be rewarded for not being able to win a chase? "Well They shoUlDnT slug then"………. THERE are to many example of situations that are common amongst good players that happen where leaving slugged is the right play, Ill list examples.
- survivor goes down in a pallet with others nearby, with or without flashlights. Killer has to chase others which systematically leaves them "Slugged".
- survivor goes down in the open with others nearby, with or without flashlights. Killer has to chase others which systematically leaves them "Slugged".
- Survivor runs to the edge of the map with no hooks, to get downed in a corner
- While carrying the survivor to a hook, the hook gets sabotaged, and you are forced to drop them leaving them slugged while chasing the other survivor.
- Survivor gets unhooked, body blocks the killer with off the record and Decisive strike, killer expecting Decisive strike so leaves them slugged, to not waist time.
So let me get this straight, These situations above are common, not malicious in any way, and still punish the killer by giving survivors unlimited unbreakable, with tenacity? How is that balance? How is that game health? Its not, its creating a free win by failing, and punishing and creating a lose lose for the one playing… what was it again? Smart and efficient
Lets get into Tunneling
Tunneling is the concept that a killer would only target 1 player until they are out, proxy camping hooks, chasing after the survivor in unhooked, eating there "Decisive Strike and Off the Record" (anti tunnel perks getting to be used). And hooking them again, to repeat and hook them 1 more time. Remember your words "Efficient", Its not done maliciously, its done because when 3-4 gens pop after that first chase, there isn't much a killer can do outside of slowing the game down. Behavior has GIGA BUFFED healing, repair speeds, so the only 2 ways to actually slow the game down is to tunnel or slug so it is more fair to the killers. Do all killers need to tunnel? "No" is the short answer, but the majority do. Its a system of "Hit and run" doesn't matter due to massive healing buffs in the past year, Killers lacking real map mobility, Generator defense got nerfed into the ground, most of the maps are huge and have way to many chaining loops that alot of killers cant deal with, Generator speeds have been buffed, and take less then the "90" seconds they stated last time generators came up in conversation with the Devs. Behavior is taking the plays they know are the correct and smart moves "Smart and efficient" and punishing the killer role for just playing. Ill list issues so its easier to understand
- Healing speeds are to fast almost instant so injuring doesn't slow the game
- generators can be solo'd in 50 seconds or less
- generators can be 2-3 manned in 35 seconds
- Maps are way to big and way to safe with the amount of pallets (and they added more in deadzones)
- 90% of killers lack map mobility, and with the maps being huge, this is a debuff to killers generally.
- Survivors use "Anti Tunnel" perks and mechanics to body block and waist the killers time, so it makes sense why a killer would chase them instead of going for a new target
- Generator defense perks are less effective
- Survivors playing so immersive that you only see 2-3 of them the entire match
Survivors getting unhooked already had Base kit Barrowed time, and off the record, and sprint burst for 15 seconds, and now they are getting elusive which is iron will, free aura reading, immune to aura reading and Killer instinct, and if they somehow manage to get hooked or killed while having every advantage possible the killer still gets punished? THIS ISNT BALANCE… Its pandering to one side…. Look slightly damaging generators and having hast for "15 seconds" is a terrible trade off, and if survivors abuse the new mechanics to gain advantage 25% repair speed which is just ridiculous, they can lose to get that, and if one dies Killers cant do their job they just let survivors win for free? Giving survivors 8 base kit perks so they can use better perks…. THIS ISNT BALANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So let me get this straight, If a killer plays "smart and efficient" They lose?, and if survivors lose, they win? Explain that to me, and explain how this isn't bias.
Look if they want to make steps in the right direction while keeping these changes Hear me out
- Reduce map sizes
- Look into Generator speeds
- Increase incentives for not tunneling
- Reduce the chances for survivors to abuse the new anti tunnel and slug mechanics
- increase break actions, and weapon attack(on hit) cooldowns slightly
- reduce the amount of pallets based on the killer loading into the match
- Reduce healing speed slightly (there shouldn't be 2 second heals)
Comments
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Dude tunneling is the smart move it's literally the most effective strategy in the game.. don't you see a problem with that? The best strategy for the killer side is to stop some one from playing the game as soon as possible. That is not healthy it's never been healthy and more people have quit playing from that system then can even be calculated. That by the way loses money for behavior. The killer side doesn't need 80-90% kill rates and most people who tunnel and slug as main strategies have that as there kill rate it's artificial success. An exploit of old and outdated game design that for some reason took all these years to address.
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tunnelling is too oppressive and unhealthy for the survivor side it completely ruins the gaming experience for the other side with the current rate of it, they needed these changes.
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I think they just made these changes trying to force break all the survivor complaints without considering killer enjoyment and the the way these forced play mechanics affect the feel of the game on the killer side. I think aggressive tunneling and slugging was a problem I just feel like their changes are too heavy handed leading to killers feeling like their arbitrarily getting punished for just playing the game and making the right decisions at the right time.
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Its the only way to slow the game down against good players? your argument is terrible, its based on emotion not balance
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I don't think its a problem at all, I have about 7k hours in the game playing both sides and unlike the survivor mains that shed tears when they get outplayed, I will admit there is TONS of counterplay for them to deal with every issue before this PTB. I would be fine if the slugging mechanic was 120 seconds, as most of the time that's all you need to slow the game down to make it winnable. I definitely agree these changes were to extreme, and they admit in there description that its the right call, and still punish us for it. Behavior has a very "Black and White" version of the issues. This was clearly pandering to a massive side of their playerbase, and this will lead to the death of their game. They will probably need to design bots for killers that disconnect mid match. Im personally going to quit playing if these changes go through, Making me lose because Im actually winning is just nuts.
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You want to o better understand why they do what they do, then take what you refer to as "high level play" and put it in a box over there somewheres.
These proposed changes are to deal with the frustrations of most of the players out there, not those with 7k hours at all. They've never based decisions primarily on that mythical high MMR area, and prolly never will. It's attempting to handle with most issues most players face, who have hundreds of hours not thousands.
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now that's a bunch of crap tbh, Nothing in this "balance" update is balanced, and will likley confuse newer players. I have 7k hours and I still can barley keep track of who is hooked and all the other multi task's that the killer has to keep track of. The new player will ask "Why am I losing when I should be winning right now", "How did 4 generators get repaired after I hooked my first survivor". There are plenty of examples and more to prove this isnt a "New player" initiative, these complaints are strictly from 1 side of of the game, made by people who only experience 1 side of the game , who cant concept the other half, its people who hate losing and love complaining. Ill take my L against a good team regardless if the game is survivor sided or not, but this was made due to complaining about an issue that already had tons of counterplay…. This balance patch is a joke
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I disagree. Roughly 700 hours of playtime, a bit more spent as solo survivor than killer (mostly because most of my earliest hours/events-excluding 2v8 and events post Ghoul release) were spent solo queueing, but otherwise fairly evenly divided-by the time I uninstalled I was pretty close to being a pure killer main (mostly because of how often I was running into Ghoul in solo queue).
IMHO, the devs have been wildly out of touch with what the majority of the community wants AT LEAST since the Ghoul’s release. Ghoul was hated by survivors on release and STILL has received no significant nerf. I’ll go out on a limb and say at least 90% of solo survivors straight up DO NOT want to see Ghoul anymore because they’re simply too oppressive to deal with (and far too easy to play for how oppressive they are). And don’t say “Just bring [insert grindlocked/shrine or money locked perks here].” No. Neither side should have to bring in something special to combat what is basekit for the other side-especially when said special something isn’t included in the paid base game.
Then there was Springtrap’s release and all the punishments it brought for/agency it took away from survivor players (automated Go Next Prevention, removal of basekit self-unhook, extension of second stage-a condescending warning and a grade loss for sometimes simply….being tunneled out of a match too early or missing a few of the second stage skillchecks-which frankly have no excuse to exist in the game anymore-hyperagressive “AFK” crows that only got tuned down after people complained enough about them + an additional condescending warning about “inactivity” too. Don’t know if that last one’s still live or not).
Then the TWD release-a buggy mess. But it brought fog vials that were a powerful and unique new survivor item (that you didn’t have to pay for-A.K.A. They weren’t locked behind a new perk) almost immediately gutted into uselessness because of killer main complaints (some of whom were using third party filters like reshade for-in the vast majority of cases-an unfair advantage). The vials were nerfed to the point that several survivor mains are demanding they be removed from the bloodweb because they’re that useless and taking the place of items/offerings that could be useful. Meanwhile they nerfed/retired the most powerful add-ons to maps and keys in the same patch-those nerfs/retirements have still not been reverted despite the destruction of the long hyped new survivor item: Fog Vials-nerfed into uselessness in…I think a week’s time?
Now this patch. My feelings about it as a former solo survivor/Skull Merchant main is pretty much “meh.”
Not enough to bring me back (further invalidates survivor stealth with new basekit killer aura reading-stealth + gen rush was my preferred playstyle for solo survivor-R.I.P original Distortion and Fog Vials). Trying to avoid the killer while repairing gens and focusing on not missing skillchecks lest your cover be blown was a heck of a lot more tense and genuinely scary than playing pure QTE gen + looping sim then likely end up waiting on a hook-or forced to play another QTE mini game on hook-to simply NOT DIE too fast-and hope your solo teammates safely unhook you eventually ever was for me.
Plus, while there was zero outrage from content creators over the “Go Next Prevention” or “AFK Crows” changes (they were pretty much universally celebrated and I never saw a single content creator on YT talk about the problems with them once they hit live), there’s been a massive backlash against this patch. I’ll be shocked if half of it makes it to live and even more shocked if the changes don’t get walked back pretty much completely eventually just like the Fog Vials did. For all the talk about the devs not caring about killer players (and those complaints do have merit-particularly in the sense of the devs neglecting certain killers/allowing bugs negatively impacting certain killers to exist far too long) I genuinely think they care about solo queue players even less.
Then there’s the continued neglect of Skull Merchant (I hated her proposed reworks. The game has enough dash killers, and I don’t enjoy dash killers or I would’ve chosen to main one of them. The extremely gutted state she’s in with no buffs in sight to compensate (and another proposed rework that won’t see the light of day until late next year at the earliest most likely-and it might be horrid too) is ridiculous, IMHO. Just revert to SM 2.0 and scrap the rework-it wasn’t like she was in every other match like Ghoul in her 2.0 state-she already had a low pickrate, there was zero reason to gut her. But much like the continued neglect of Twins, and to a lesser extent Sadako and Pinhead-I don’t think these are huge issues for the DBD playerbase at large because none of those killers have a high pickrate, one has been removed from sale, and at least two are hated by a majority of survivor players).
Hot take: For as much as I hated being slugged in solo queue (to the extent I never went without Unbreakable until the abandon feature was added unless I was attempting a survivor adept-even though it was borderline useless in most matches because it was a one time use perk-and most slugging killers slugged more than once), I enjoyed almost all my Twins matches. I found most Twins players to be chill and non-toxic in comparison to the majority of other killers (even with all the slugging)-and I seemed to run into Twins more than a lot of people have. I also enjoyed my Skull Merchant matches as survivor even before I bought her with iri shards and started maining her when I played killer (in her current state).
Anyway, the PTB changes for Myers look like a travesty to me. Since when has Michael Myers dashed anywhere? And removing the Scratched Mirror playstyle completely? Why? Those matches (along with Tombstone Myers) were some of the few where it actually felt like you were playing a horror game as survivor if the Myers knew what he was doing.
That’s also not mentioning the new quest system being far more ridiculously grindy than tomes ever were-and straight up unfriendly to all casual players.
Or TL:DR:
-Give me a viable solo survivor stealth build & basekit self-unhook back. I don’t enjoy “looping simulator” gameplay-it’s not scary, it’s just annoying. I don’t enjoy being forced to go through the motions in matches that are very obviously over for the entertainment of other players (usually the killer, an uncaring 3 man SWF or purposefully sandbagging solo queuers) either. Plus the frequent ping exploiter/occasional genuine hacker. Remove those condescending messages and deranking.
- Stop neglecting Skull Merchant and other killers with a lower pickrate just because they have a lower pickrate. Take away Ghoul’s “look at survivor and get free injury + deep wound,” remove the weird locked-in-place animation, remove the basically free BAM, and the slide cancellation. Make Ghoul require skill.
-Reduce the grind for everyone instead of increasing it. Stop being so stingy with BP.
Trying to combat tunneling is nice (I loathed start-of-match tunneling as solo survivor-whether it was happening to me or a teammate) and I rarely tunneled as killer, I preferred to get 8 hooks then let them go unless the team/a survivor/survivors were being particularly obnoxious (or I had a sacrifice challenge to complete)-because I knew how miserable it was to be on the receiving end of tunneling. But again, I doubt the slugging and tunneling changes will stick given the very recent fog vial fiasco. In any case, it’s far too little, far too late.
At this point I’d genuinely prefer the game in its pre-Ghoul and pre “Project Health(s)” state, tbh.
BHVR has a LOT of work to do to get anywhere close to gaining my trust (and interest in their game) back, frankly. For now, I’m playing other games and looking forward to other upcoming horror asymm releases.
Also, I have to add: Tunneling? Particularly against solo queue might be “smart and efficient” but more importantly, it’s “ez and cheap.” At the very least-if these changes DO go live-it might mean the end of ridiculously long one-sided winstreaks for killers. Because tunneling is what got those killers winstreaks in the thousands. And I don’t think winstreaks that last that long being so common using cheap methods is remotely healthy for any PVP game-particularly when the other side at its strongest (an experienced SWF with full comms) cannot come anywhere near the winstreak numbers that many killer players have obtained.
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First off, I think we agree on alot of things, but at the end of your post you just say "Ez and cheap" while still saying "Smart and efficient", so I think we are getting into the territory of feelings vs facts. I to play soloQ and have quite alot of hours stacked on my survivor play alone (I still main killer) but I can contend with the higher level play of killers just fine. So it seems like you lack the killer experience as your only comment is "Ez and Cheap" as I can pull up plenty of videos to prove good survivors will not be tunneled so easily if at all. When the game ends in 4-6 minutes, tunneling is generally your only option to make the game slow down. If you want I can video proof you plenty of example to prove my point. I painted the examples above on why So many killers NEED to tunnel. We can probably get into a discussion where I can agree that most of the time 3-4 killers out of the entire roster dont need to tunnel as much to win as they have way better tools to handle survivors at loops, but that doesnt mean against efficient teams that crank out generators at warp speed while having more intelligence then the CIA they wouldn't need to tunnel to get the game under control. As far as kill rates, BHVR has included Disconnects and Bots in there "Statistics" while lacking Maps, and killers on those maps so the numbers are really inflated and inaccurate. If you have a legit argument about tunneling and slugging other than your feelings being effected lmk. It was a nice read though
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