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Does DBD favor killers?

13

Comments

  • rvzrvzrvz
    rvzrvzrvz Member Posts: 1,186
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000996#Comment_4000996

    So you're saying "i'm 100% right and all the downvotes on my comment are biased survivors or dumb people not understanding the game", I don't know why post on forums if you're not open to debate, your comment missed the point it's not even about balance

    If your teammate is killed early in the match it shouldn't result in an automatic death for the 3 remaining players, that's what this patch aimed to fix. Right now early 1v3 is literally a free win if killer is half decent you can just go next, obviously awful design, it's not balanced in the slightest but more importantly it's not fun, you guys easily forget games are meant to be fun

  • oecrophy
    oecrophy Member Posts: 448
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001064#Comment_4001064

    That’s why we need better MMR that actually separates player pools. I’m totally fine with strong, experienced killers sitting at 80%+ KR right now—I see why people die. It’s usually not that the killer is “too strong for that situation,” it’s that the survivor team makes clear mistakes. And that’s fine: if someone has thousands of hours on one side, of course they beat typical casuals. That’s a fair outcome.

    On survivor you accept it’s asym. You don’t solo-control the match; you need your team. If I’m good enough for the killer in front of me but 1–2 teammates can’t keep up, it’s also fair that the team dies. I don’t get the escape entitlement. I can still have fun in matches where I know from minute one we’re doomed because the lobby is outmatched. I still can have fun and good chases. That’s just the nature of asym games.

  • cogsturning
    cogsturning Member Posts: 2,101
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000996#Comment_4000996

    The current state of the forum doesn't show anything. When the patch was first announced the forum was on fire with killer-sided posts. Fog vials were the same way. Whatever side isn't getting their way is the loudest at any given time.

    There are a few exceptions present, but If you have a side at all, you're probably not objective. And it seems like whichever side people personally favor also manages to have the more objective and unbiased opinions from their perspective. Funny how that works out.

  • oecrophy
    oecrophy Member Posts: 448
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001112#Comment_4001112

    If you balance for casual mistakes, you kill the top end. The long timers won’t change their playstyle — they leave. SBMM then drags the next tier of "chill" killers up, now THEY face the same SWFs, get steamrolled, tilt, quit.

    Killers down → survivor queues up → SBMM widens buckets → even more mismatch. In the end, casuals eat it.

    Mistakes become free. Unsafe save? Whatever. On-path heal? Sure. Stack mid? Why not. You don’t learn → you get thrown into harder lobbies → first real check = brick wall.

    Solo “helpers” double-buff SWFs. The squads that are already strong get turbo. The gap grows, not shrinks.

    Then comes the counter-steer: anti-gen, anti-heal, anti-fun → low-variance meta. M1 killers disappear, Nurse/Blight stick around. gg. fun for everyone? OR ? :(

    Fewer killers ⇒ longer queues. SBMM widens buckets, coinflip lobbies (0k/4k), more tilt. Everyone loses.

    Newbies get frosting instead of fundamentals. You get matchmade up because the padding works. Protection drops → brick wall. Feels like “game unfair,” not “I’m missing basics” → quit.

    What i think we actually really really need (without nuking the ceiling):

    • Balance around correct play.
    • Fix SBMM
    • Onboarding & solo info: better bots, mini-tutorials, in-match pings/better HUD

    idk… maybe short-sighted from me, but I’d even be fine with a 5th perk for soloQ-only (the moment u q soloq) — locked to info/coord stuff (Kindred, Visionary, Deja Vu-lite; no gen speed) — just a small buff for solos/casuals that doesn’t touch the ceiling. I might be missing something, sure, but I’d have absolutely zero problem with it.

  • Sava18
    Sava18 Member Posts: 2,514
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001359#Comment_4001359

    I don't personally favor a side and if I did it would be survivor as of now. It's just true that the large majority of killer content creators are more objective and info based than content based. It's nearly impossible to find a teacher based survivor content creator.

  • UnicornMedal
    UnicornMedal Member Posts: 1,528
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001112#Comment_4001112

    It's been asked for years and years now and I don't think they'll ever say. The staff that goes on video to talk about the game always treat it as a competitive experience, but the patches always bounce back and forth. I think they're trying to play both sides to not eliminate anyone, but in the process frustrate everyone instead (in my opinion).

  • Sava18
    Sava18 Member Posts: 2,514
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001058#Comment_4001058

    Yeah man, that's what I said for sure. It wasn't that I have seen a ton of neutral takes not criticizing the upcoming changes but saying maybe it's ok that it's pushed back for refinement, nope I was saying everyone is wrong.

    "But the killer side is heavily favored but is it because of killers or people who play the role? Killers are over represented on the forms and as streamers And in groups of long term players that "prefer" the role."

    That's what I replied to, which is just completely a lie and 100% an radical opinion.

    Your second paragraph I'll disregard entirely because I never disagreed with it and if you've seen my other comments you'd know I agree with it. You just assumed a ton of stuff about me, misinterpreting what I said into a hard killer take in your head and then commented on it.

    If you look at all the comments I've made, you'd see my opinion on kill rate which the non-competitive dbd players don't understand, because they have never delved into a real competitive games statistics and the nuance of them. DBD being a little special in that field because you have to account for survivor who troll whether they think they are or not, chest build, trying to steal chase, not doing gens prioing quests/challenges, messing around with friends in a game they could win but just want to play around. That's just how survivor is, I'm not even judging but there are just so many more reasons to troll. While playing killer there are VERY few reasons to troll yourself. The other comments you'll see from me is all the changes to tunneling and slugging are fine bar tenacity and maybe reducing hooks required to proc anti tunnel to 5.

    I'm quite certain this is the first comment you've seen from me since I came back a couple weeks ago and assumed the worse, but go off I guess.

  • Gibberish
    Gibberish Member Posts: 1,117
    edited September 14

    DBD favors Killers at low skill levels of the game, but favors Survivors at high skill levels.

    A low skill Killer will typically do well against team of low-skill Survivors, but a team of high-skill survivors are at more of an advantage than a high-skill Killer.

  • oecrophy
    oecrophy Member Posts: 448
    edited September 14
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001428#Comment_4001428

    You'd have a point if the things being addressed weren't 100% enforceable by killers. Getting tunnelled is not a survivor mistake. Getting camped is not a survivor mistake. Getting slugged is not a survivor mistake.

    Tunneling/Camping/Slugging = pressure & adaptation on the killer side — not a survivor mistake. But a tunnel that actually matters usually comes after survivor-side errors: unsafe/early unhooks, bad chases, poor rotations, no gens up yet — that’s what makes the tunnel worth it.
    Bodyblocks, forcing a pallet down with two healthy on-site, denied pickups = coordinated survivor teamplay — legit on its own and doesn’t require killer mistakes. But this tools are there without killer mistakes.
    I mean. it’s a 4v1. Tools vs. tools. Adapt > blame. All of these are legitimate playstyles.

    It's disingenuous to use these as examples, because these haven't been touched. The only one you can argue is unsafe saves, but again, that's because killers could forcibly remove the option for an actual safe rescue. So long as that possibility is on the table, you can't call unsafe rescues 'survivor mistakes'.

    those are the levers that matter. If chase quality, pathing, gen priority (skip mid/key), and unhook timing are on point, hard tunneling stops being a winning line—it bleeds tempo and throws the match. (for the killer)

    This is both ignoring that, if these players were so obsessed with winning, they would already be playing top tiers only, and that there's more than enough room for compensatory buffs -IF- spike tactics are addressed and prove to dunk killrates too much.

    Yup. If I q into real strong squads consistently, my kill rate drops — which is fine: more skill expression on both sides instead of RNG stat-padding.
    Right now tons of games get tossed because randoms with no movement/cam control/gamesense drag the team — and they’re the loudest in afterchat/forums.
    We need a fgood working mmr, then we finally get honest stats instead of MM RNG.

    (and you finally get consistent teammates who can keep up with the killer you’re up against — the best trade-off at this point)

    Newbies currently don't get the basics because they get bonjoured out of matches with 5K BP. And it's not like any of the proposed changes take away any need for fundamentals, either.

    a few matches? Sure. They often start around mid-MMR (smurf protection), then their true MMR settles. After that they fall into super-new-player lobbies with equally inexperienced killers. Killers still tend to win there, but not to the “5k BP and back to lobby” degree — there’s actual room to learn.

    And dying fast in your first games isn’t the end of the world. if you new you want to learn the game, not "i want to win/escape directly" Nobody expects a day-one escape, and : they usually won’t even be the first chase. New players play more cautiously, while mid-MMR has plenty of aggro survivors who take the early chase instead. .. so they do get learning space.

    Or change the definition of correct play. If the 'correct play' is also the most cookie cutter, boring slop imaginable, it's not gonna help the game to balance more tightly towards that.

    Technically, if we're balancing towards 'correct play', we have to take hard tunnelling as the balance standard, which would mean crippling nerfs to killers or heavy buffs to survivors. And something tells me that'd piss off killers even more.

    The “correct play” is exactly what the game and its maps are built around: take and hold chases while your team gets gens done—and the killer’s job is to stop that. That’s the game. The game design is around this.

    If you deliberately play differently—chest/meme builds, over-aggressive plays that feed the killer, or ultra-passive styles that abandon the team objective—you’re opting out of the core concept. Totally fine, but don’t expect consistent wins. That choice comes with trade-offs.

  • oecrophy
    oecrophy Member Posts: 448
    edited September 14
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001491#Comment_4001491

    Because when a nerf is introduced to tunnelling to actually enforce this argument of yours, you balked at that, too. Apparently killer mistakes should stay free.

    You’re flipping it: the killer isn’t making a mistake — he’s reacting smart to survivor misplays. If you forbid the killer from applying pressure in those windows (tunnel/slug/camp in that context), survivor mistakes become free.

    A “tunnel that matters” usually comes after survivor errors: unsafe/early unhooks, bad chases, poor rotations, 0 gens up. That’s what makes tunneling lucrative — the killer isn’t failing; the survivors are. And that’s exactly what I reject: blanket nerfs that devalue punishing misplays. That kills skill expression and shifts the opportunity cost: survivors get to make mistakes and skate by because the killer is punished for correct play.

    On top of that, versus strong squads/SWFs, the killer role needs tunneling and slugging as tools — survivors are using all of theirs. You can’t strip that out just to make lower-MMR casual lobbies happy.

    That's even more interesting considering the mutually exclusive point that tunnelling is the ONLY way to win against efficient teams.

    Now, apparently, against efficient teams, it is the incorrect play!

    At this point, it is just plain lying. Tunnelling being at once the only way to win and a ticket to a loss against the same survivor team is just showing how disingenuous this argumentation is. Legit, the quality and value of tunnelling is just whatever you need it to be for the argument at hand.

    Want to make tunnelling into a survivor error? Just claim that it's bad against efficient teams. Want to make sure tunnelling does not get nerfed? Insist that it's the only way to win against efficient teams.

    You can't have both. Any attempts to do so are just plain disingenuous.

    Tunneling and slugging are part of playing into efficient, strong teams — legitimate, often-used tools. But if your pressure comes only from tunneling, you lose. You also need off-tunnel pressure.

    Situational judgment: do I start the tunnel now, or not?
    If tunneling gets broadly nerfed, every strong squad will know and play around it. A tunnel alone doesn’t win a match — without off-tunnel pressure (macro, tempo, map/gen control) you sink. You have to keep all of that before the unhook so you can even start a profitable tunnel. Strong teams can counter by forcing a good zone for them and a bad zone for you, making the tunnel inefficient. That takes a lot of survivor macro, is sometimes costly, and they’ll often trade for a faster down to secure a zone where tunneling isn’t worth it. If you introduce blanket anti-tunnel, that whole trade-off disappears — the cost survivors currently pay goes away.

    Strong teams force zones — zones where a tunnel often isn’t worth it, and proxy-camping isn’t worth it either.
    Often it’s a quick down as an investment: better to take an early (cheap) down if it makes the tunnel unprofitable and keeps team tempo.
    Add blanket “anti-tunnel,” and you remove the cost/benefit exchange: survivors no longer have to pay to secure that zone; macro decisions become risk-free.

    I'm not talking about getting stomped. I'm talking about getting tunnelled, camped and slugged out.

    Once a newbie drops into baby lobbies, they’ll verse bad killers. A bad killer tunneling will often still win there — because those lobbies don’t use time well, they’re basically gen-allergic and ignore objectives. But a bad tunneling killer is still bad: the tunneled player doesn’t insta-down; they get chase time. And if a killer tunnels in new-player lobbies, that killer is usually really, REALLY bad and will make a ton of mistakes. That gives the tunneled survivor huge reps to learn: resources/tiles, pathing, how to counter powers/perks. That’s literally how you learn the game.

    Ah, but then that is restricted to only what -you- want it to be. Because changes to what the game is 'built around' are rejected when it's not in favour of your personal view of what the game should be. Which makes an appeal to 'the correct play' a self-fulfilling prophecy. Essentially, 'I'm right because I'm right'.

    Take 'Take and hold chases' for example. I actually really enjoy stealth play, and in cases, that was certainly the correct play too. But that didn't matter when BHVR decided to release a cascade of intel perks and stripped away protections from said intel perks.

    So why would 'the correct play' matter now?

    Stealth is fine if you enjoy it. But BHVR shifted the incentives (more intel perks, fewer counters).

    Core issue with stealth: it eats the most valuable survivor resource — time. While you’re hiding, there’s usually no pressure: no gens,resources burned, no map progress.
    Against good killers, stealth is a tool, not a gameplan. Use it to reset, rotate, or for endgame — but don’t expect wins. Without gen tempo and macro pressure, you lose the map and the team dies.

    When BHVR cut pallet counts, they pretty much had to clamp down on stealth too. Today it’s more important than ever that everyone contributes to the team objective. DBD isn’t like it used to be: the resource budget doesn’t let one or two players spend long stretches stealthing and still win. Back then 1–2 could carry; now it takes the whole team.


    So sure, play stealth if that’s your thing — just don’t expect to beat a good killer with it.

  • oecrophy
    oecrophy Member Posts: 448
    edited September 15
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001510#Comment_4001510

    Except you're also arguing that this isn't actually a one-size-fits-all argument and also you're missing the point.

    With the suggested PTB changes, tunnelling could indeed become a costly mistake, but apparently it's not a problem to make that mistake free.

    So why is it a problem when 'survivor mistakes' are free, but not when killer mistakes are free?

    Because tunneling isn’t a mistake — it’s a reactive tool for killers, just like good bodyblocks aren’t a mistake for survivors. Both can be used poorly and backfire, but that’s not a fundamental error; it’s a situational misplay.

    I don't care about your essay on killer 'strategy' when your prior arguments have been both 'you can't win without it' AND 'you can't win with it'. What you're writing up here is a complete departure from your earlier argument. Which, again, feels like a disingenuous swerve.

    In the games where you “win without tunneling,” you often win because the option to tunnel is always on the table. At high MMR, good survivors assume you will hard tunnel if it’s worth it, so they change their macro:

    No heals under hook, they do off-path resets → time loss.

    Chases away from key gens into zones where tunneling is unprofitable → they’ll even take a faster down as the price for a good zone.

    From those zones, saves take longer paths → more time for the killer.

    Less gen-greed in critical areas → they won’t go down between two key gens, they “give” earlier.

    All of this happens because the killer can hard tunnel if the spot is good (and in high MMR that’s normal). Survivors must play smart to make tunneling unattractive — and that slows the match heavily in the killer’s favor, i.e., the time gain you need.

    Tunneling isn’t an “always do it” plan; it’s a pressure tool whose credible threat already reshapes survivor macro. Necessary as an option, weak as a sole gameplan.

    and most groups completely neglect their macro gameplay, stayed until the last second in important zones, play super aggressive on their side, push their objective until the last second and give downs in key areas, -> play at a crazy speed, and neglect their macro entirely. against these groups then the hard tunnel and a fast 3v1 is the way to go. you take back the speed you need. teams that on the other hand play to counter the tunnel, already slow down the round by themselves.

    trade macro for speed and the game answers with tunneling; respect macro and you remove its incentive.

    The credible threat of hard tunneling changes how people play; under that shadow, you’ll win games without ever using it.

    Most of the time, though, you still need the option—players love going hyper-aggressive and turbo-pace, and tunneling punishes those overextensions.

    Except it doesn't, because getting tunnelled is fundamentally different from a fresh chase, and that still leaves three others in the lurch.

    One health state down when the chase starts — plus a ton of perks that only come online post-unhook/while injured.
    The rest is just DBD/asym nature. The other three will have less direct interaction by default; if they want more, they can force it — crash the hook, bodyblock, trade, cover/ sabo/flash. The option’s there — lots of squads do exactly that.

    Except it's neither of those anymore because it got ripped out. There's so much intel going around that stealth is fundamentally a lost cause. It's no longer a tool because you're lighting up like a christmas tree every three seconds.

    My experience was the opposite: Most survivors didn’t like the old Distortion. Hook phases are resources — if the killer plays into them, it’s a resource that everyone gets found — otherwise tons of key gens were lost because the killer only ever spotted the people sitting there, never the Distortion users.
    And no, it’s not a “teamplay boost.” It’s more like: “I hate tunneling… so I’ll make sure the killer only ever sees the same teammate while I stay invisible.” 😂

    Here’s the kicker: people defend Distortion as “good design,” which ends up meaning the killer finds the 1–2 without Distortion — and then they complain about tunneling. That’s Schrödinger’s perk: both “anti-tunnel” and “please tunnel the others.” Omega paradox, omega funny.

    Schrödinger’s morality: rail against tunneling while defending the perks that trigger it — so killers (esp. low/mid MMR) who wouldn’t tunnel end up doing it anyway.

    It’s paradoxical: stealth + Distortion make even non-tunneling killers tunnel hard — especially in MMR where tunneling isn’t even needed. If you hide all game, where should killer get pressure before wasting time searching? From the hook. From the tunnel. Kinda funny to be anti-tunnel on one hand and pro-stealth on the other—pick a lane.

    I mean. .. Anti-tunnel in mind, Distortion in the loadout: result — “please tunnel the others.” Distortion go brrr.

  • oecrophy
    oecrophy Member Posts: 448
    edited September 15
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001734#Comment_4001734

    “Survivor perks all nerfed, killers only buffed!”
    Oh… wait. Pop? Nerf. Pain Res? Nerf. Eruption? Nerf. Call of Brine? Nerf. Overcharge/CoB? Nerf. Dead Man’s? Nerf. Deadlock? Nerf. Corrupt? Nerf. Grim Embrace? Nerf.
    I mean… wait… those aren’t even survivor perks.

    – Pop Goes the Weasel (nerf)
    – Pain Resonance (nerf)
    – Eruption (nerf)
    – Call of Brine (nerf)
    – Overcharge + CoB (nerf)
    – Dead Man’s Switch (nerf)
    – Deadlock (nerf)
    – Corrupt Intervention (nerf)
    – Grim Embrace (nerf)

    Checkout: 9 nerfs. Would you like the receipt?

    And on smaller maps: I actually like them on survivor side.

    • Faster rotations for pallet saves and bodyblocks
    • Quicker safe unhooks/trades and heals/resets
    • Easier flashlight/and gen defense on calls
    • Less marathon 3-gen walk-ups; info → action is immediate

    Sure, killers patrol faster — but survivors get way more punish windows. It’s not a one-way buff.

  • Abbzy
    Abbzy Member Posts: 2,098
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001716#Comment_4001716

    Distortion was heavily used by rats, survivors which only hid and did this even if they werent hooked and could take chasee for surivor which is ead on hook or right after unhook went hid like ninja just for the killer to see only unhooked survivor which was tunnel (imagine this low mobility killer with no info about survivors on map and only notification he gets is someone unhooked hooked survivor so what he will logicaly he will go back to the hook and there he finds only unhooked survivor guess what will happen next). From what I seen distortion was used by same kind of players which are hinding on 3 survivors left and just wait for hatch on 2 survivors left, hiding, covering and waiting patiently for other survivors death thats it just rats in general whithout strategic teamwork potencial (only one is when killer is trying to locate them and looses too much time but that was rare as pure basement bubba guarding his chest).

  • oecrophy
    oecrophy Member Posts: 448
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001920#Comment_4001920

    Exactly. 100 true. My words. That’s why it’s wild to see someone who’s against tunneling also claim Distortion was “good design” — when it literally made it more likely the killer only ever saw the same non-Distortion teammate if he didn’t want to tunnel. That’s a pretty massive double standard.

    I also saw way more complaints about old Distortion from survivors than from killers. And every killer knows where the pressure comes from when you can’t find anyone and you’re not about to play hide-and-seek forever: the hook, the freshly unhooked, and the injured.

  • Abbzy
    Abbzy Member Posts: 2,098
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001926#Comment_4001926

    Thats because survivors and even bigger half of killers doesnt support rats either, they are one of reasons of killers tunneling and teams getting stuck on 3gens.

  • oecrophy
    oecrophy Member Posts: 448
    edited September 16
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002136#Comment_4002136

    lol sure, “killers get everything.” Meanwhile survivors only got…
    basekit BT + Haste on unhook, an anti-facecamp meter, the SoloQ HUD (gen/heal/chase/totem/doors + hook counters), repeated slowdown nerfs (Eruption/Brine/Overcharge/PR stacking trimmed, Deadlock toned), safer map flows, clearer aura/readability… but yup, “just BT.” 😉

    nobody’s saying killers don’t have a power state — it’s a 4v1.

    (the killer has to be the power role — it’s 4v1. Four survivors can split tempo, stack info/resources, and cover each other’s mistakes. The killer is solo and needs the bigger lever. If one survivor were as strong as the killer, four together would be busted.
    Do you want to go back to 2016, where a single survivor could run the killer for five gens? That’s just not understanding how asym games work.

    And when all four survivors coordinate and play solid macro, survivors are still the power role against almost every killer on the roster.)

    But pretending survivors haven’t been handed QoL and safety nets for years is wild.

    And it’s not like killers never get chopped down. Plenty of killer nerfs:

    • Nurse add-ons trimmed;
    • Blight flick/turn caps + Alch Ring/Vial/other add-on hits;
    • Spirit audio clarity + MDR nerfs;
    • Hillbilly overheat + add-on rework;
    • Deathslinger ADS delay/reload/TR—quickscope dead;
    • Twins more downtime/recall windows;
    • Knight / Skull Merchant anti-3-gen & stall reworks;

    and so on..

    , as there's no real reason to play survivor unless you have a premade ready to go.

    And that last line? ehhw, ouf? It’s always the same cycle:
    “My team played bad → nerf killer.”

    Post edited by oecrophy on
  • oecrophy
    oecrophy Member Posts: 448
    edited September 16
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002149#Comment_4002149

    Oh, and a 50% escape rate isn’t good for you?

    Be real: watch the match. A lot of strong squads throw once it’s clearly not a 4-man. Instead of taking the 2- 3-out, they go for hero saves → trade chains. Mid/late they just won’t sack one person at that game state. It feels like a stomp, but it’s often just refusing the 2–3-out — that’s what tons of SWFs die to.

    And yup: this game is still very survivor-favored vs. most of the roster — it’s just that many groups don’t actually use their tools or the map right. You don’t even need cracked movement to beat most killers; you need macro discipline (I mean, sure, you have to be a solid chaser and not a typical insta-down, but overall the team macro matters most— and y.. a bit harder but still good possible in soloq too).

  • Rick1998
    Rick1998 Member Posts: 465
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/456470/does-dbd-favor-killers

    they favor new players all around for both sides . It makes sense from a business perspective but kind of alienates the veterans of their game .

  • oecrophy
    oecrophy Member Posts: 448
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002199#Comment_4002199

    Not anymore, is my point. On the PTB it was, but apparently it's fine if that gets axed to make the mistake free.

    y the ptb already showed it: almost every match was a 3–4 out, we only dropped two games. It clearly broke balance — and that was before we even had time to figure out how to max-abuse the new system.

    Unlike normal chases that… Benefit from being near key gens somehow?

    Oh, obviously? You’ve got main + key gens, strong windows, strong structures — that’s how the map is built.
    So: chase at key gens = better tiles for survivors → longer chases; but downs between key gens = killer value.
    Chase away from key gens = team value. That’s why you sometimes take the faster down as the price for the better zone (where tunneling isn’t worth it).

    And we already saw what anti-tunnel did on the ptb: a free pass for survivors to steamroll macro — rewarding unsmart play and handing out free wins.

    Perks that new players will not have.

    No game balances around day-one fresh installs. If there’s pain there, you fix it with onboarding/placement and MMR — not with global balance levers.

    Balance for the long-term population; let matchmaking protect true newbies.

    New killers have the same problem — no perks.
    Solve that with MMR/onboarding/starter builds and faster unlocks, not global balance nerfs. Balance for the broader population; protect true newbies via matchmaking.

    Except they can't; they don't control the killer. They can attempt a bodyblock (Good luck on figuring out how that whole tactic works as a newbie), but that is not any kind of guarantee for action, as you, specifically, should be keenly aware of!

    Same deal.

    You can’t balance around newbies — that’s how games die. Let matchmaking handle it.

    You do realise that you're arguing here that new players, in order to be able to learn the game, should play like high MMR swiffer teams, right?

    im not saying newbies should play like high-MMR SWF. i’m saying: teach basics, match basics. let MMR put them with people at their level.

    new killers scuff too — lose people, mispath tiles, don’t know how to deny fast vaults, sometimes chase themselves around a structure while the survivor’s already gone. the game only feels killersided early because a lot of new survivors ignore the team objective (gens). with working MMR, both sides learn on the same rung: survivors pick up macro, killers learn pathing/hooks, and the “it’s unfair” vibe fades.

    don’t warp core balance for day-1. onboard them, let MMR do its job.

    No, most survivors did not care or used it themselves. The argument that it was bad for the survivor team did not surface until AFTER killers had begun complaining about Distortion's mere existence, giving the whole thing an air of 'how do you do, fellow survivor players?'.

    This is compounded by the fact that the pain point of rat play did not rely on Distortion at all. Need I remind folks again: Lockers still exist.

    Also also, 'while I stay invisible' actually touches on another pain point about this whole discussion that a lot of people like to skate over:

    No idea — I almost never saw Distortion in my lobbies. And when I did, that player had a huge anti-fan club: “Thanks for throwing the game, Distortion guy!” Classic afterchat. And honestly, I get it: 1–2 stealth/Distortion enjoyers = quick, tasty win for the killer. Was true then, still true now.

    same when I’m on survivor and there’s a stealth enjoyer on my team — most of the time it’s a RIP match.

    You're trying to pin the blame for this on Distortion, but Distortion doesn't make you invisible or untargetable. It just blocks aura reading. To blame Distortion for tunnelling is to assume that baseline, the killer is able to read everyone's aura by default, which is testament to the massive power-creep that killer intel perks have gone through. The fact that this creates auto-piloting behaviours in the killer playerbase means that these aura reading perks absolutely share the blame for this. Without aura reading, Distortion would have no impact. But without Distortion, killers can absolutely still use aura reading to tunnel!

    This was always a disingenuous argument from the start, coined by frustrated killer players that just didn't want to ever have to deal with stealth.

    And they got their wish, despite stealth being a valid tool in the survivors' arsenal.

    So again, if stealth, a perfectly valid tool, could get ripped from the game, why can't tunnelling?

    It was rarely “Distortion alone,” it was the stealth gameplan behind it. If I don’t see anyone, I’m not playing bush simulator — I go where the reliable info is: hook, fresh unhook, injured, maybe a key-gen zone. That’s where I get pressure before I start checking random rocks/lockers.

    That’s not “aura autopilot,” that’s time economy. If you kill auras/tracks, you funnel my options — of course tunneling starts to feel like the default. Stealth as a tool (reset/rotations/endgame) is fine. But if it’s Plan A, you force hook pressure. Result ≠ “evil killers,” it’s just the math.

    And there’s still plenty of good stealth: break LoS, do short stealth cuts behind structures, little fakes/mindgames at tiles, walk-tech — all stuff that buys distance and seconds. That’s stealth as a tool, not “I’m sitting in bush 17.” One takes skill & gamesense; the other burns time and invites tunnel/proxy.

    i mean, play however you want — but for me, stealth lobbies were always the easiest wins. Even back in 2016–17. (where stealth was a bigger thing)

  • oecrophy
    oecrophy Member Posts: 448
    edited September 17
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002469#Comment_4002469

    Couldn't possibly be that killers had to learn and adapt, because killers never have to do that, right?

    Our killers weren’t bad. Sure, some — PTB + soft MMR — but plenty knew exactly what they were doing. The whole “killers are just bad, git gud” take is lazy.

    Key gens that aren't getting done if you're going benny hill on them. Besides, the most difficult to defend gens are hardly the 'key gens'. It's the most defensible gens that matter the most, as they swing the game the hardest in the survivors' favour if they get done.

    You’re talking about playing for a 3-gen from the start as a strat? That doesn’t work vs a remotely efficient team. Any decent squad will break your 3-gen if you try it while all four are alive. A good team won’t even let the map state become a 3-gen. Maybe that flies in your lobbies, but not against halfway experienced players.

    If it's getting them the win, how is it an unsmart play?

    "we just dont have to care about our macrogame." Outcome ≠ smart play. If the patch hands out freebies for 0 movement and 0 macro, that’s not “smart,” that’s carried.

    Same problem. You say the other three survivors need to force interaction, I point out that they can't, and that the only method that even approaches being able to do so requires a lot of skill to pull off.

    You ignore the former point, and swap arguments once again for the latter.

    You switch the points. now it is “L2P,” . My point stands: if MMR works, newbies face newbies. Those killers also don’t know what they’re doing—they misroute, chase the wrong targets, whiff swings. You’re not getting consistent “turbo tunneling” there. New killers are bad too. As I said above.

    When new players face other new players, both sides have room to develop their skills.

    It amuses me that people insist that the game is just progressively less killer-sided as you go up in MMR, because the stats show the opposite. Escape rates go down, kill rates go up, as you climb MMR.

    More kills at higher MMR doesn’t prove it’s more killer-sided — it shows selection effects. At the top you mostly see S-tier killers and sweat strats. That’s selection, not balance. Plus, plenty of good squads throw going for the 4-man, which inflates kill rate.

    and biggest thing: Kill rate is a blunt outcome metric. If you want to talk learning/skill, look at hook states per minute, gen progress per minute, resets, and map control.

    Falling escape rates can just reflect ceiling asymmetry: one very good killer scales better than a team with even one uncoordinated survivor. In high MMR, a single weak link vs a strong killer can sink the whole game. (and this happens a lot=

    And again: this is largely an MMR quality issue (mismatch), not proof of side imbalance.

    Oh, so you mean to say that the Distortion nerf did nothing to fix the issue?

    Almost like it was done because killers complained, and not because it was costing survivors their matches, huh?

    Ye, that’s what I’m saying. From my POV, Distortion was never strong; if anything it played into the killer’s hands and cost survivor teams games. Different lobbies, different experiences. You’ve got ~500 hours and <100 since 2021; I’m at ~15,000 across two accounts. Our lobbies are probably not comparable. I can only speak from what I’ve seen. (no flex, just context.) i cannot say much about distortion in new player lobbis, not part of my experience.

    So ye, killer in your lobbys have maybe different problems then the killer in mine. IDK.

  • oecrophy
    oecrophy Member Posts: 448
    edited September 17
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002498#Comment_4002498

    But 'survivors are just bad, git gud' is perfectly fine?

    Yh, at this point survivors just need to git gud — the mistake is on their side. So why punish the killer for capitalizing on it?

    On the point “Tunneling/Camping/Slugging are 100% enforceable by the killer”: Sure, the killer can always try that. But whether it’s worth it is decided by the team’s behavior. If survivors pull instantly in a panic, everyone heals right at the hook, and nobody is on gens, tunneling is cheap and feels unstoppable. If the survivor team, on the other hand, splits (2–3 on gens), prepares the save (two healthy, bodyblock line, path to a usable tile), and doesn’t pull through the killer’s face, tunneling becomes expensive: the killer burns time at the hook, loses map pressure, and the gens progress in the meantime.

    Concrete mini-examples:

    Bad for survivors: instant unhook in front of the killer’s nose, everyone stays in the hook area, zero gen progress → quick re-down, killer gets value “for free.” “Free” is it only from the survivor perspective—the killer pays for it with time at the hook, lost map control, and missed gen pressure; the survivor team only enabled this discount with weak macro.

    Good for survivors: only pull when gens are ticking; two healthy players screen, the rescued one has a clear path; if necessary, a short trade → even if there’s a down, the killer is worse off, and the map works for the survivor team.

    Important: the killer can apply pressure, but cannot press the unhook button. An “unsafe save” is mostly created by survivor decisions and their timing—not by magic. Here too: the mistake is clearly on the survivor side.

    What does that mean for the game? These tactics don’t have to go away. If you tunnel, you give up time/map control for it. If you spread pressure, you get tangible advantages for it. Then it’s a real decision—not a default template.

    Tunneling/Camping/Slugging aren’t automatically “free.” They only become strong when survivors deliver bad saves, no gen split, and poor timing. If the survivor team plays it clean, it costs the killer real time—and that’s exactly how it should be. And yes, in all these points the survivor team is playing poorly.. so why should the killer be put at a disadvantage as soon as he reacts to bad survivor playstyles?

    í mean…

    Time window: pickup → carry → hook → re-spot → find the same survivor again → second chase. During this time, 2–3 survivors work undisturbed on gens, rotate, or set bodyblocks.

    Loss of position for survivors: Anyone who “stays at hook / or dances around the hook with the killer right after the hook” gives up map control. Gens are neglected, totems/chests get done, pressure on the survivor side is lost → the tunnel becomes lucrative and “ez” → granted by bad survivor play, so it’s not free for the killer. Given by the survivors.

    Chasereset risk: The tunneled person has escape windows or (if free BT isn’t enough) team protection windows (safe unhook, bodyblock, window path, pallets). If the fast down fails, a lot of time is burned.

    Conclusion: The killer can start tunneling, but they don’t “force” a good trade if the team plays macro correctly.

    so y.. why, why should the killer get a disadvantage at this point?

    If everyone heals under hook, tunneling is “ez.”
    Split 2–3 to gens (or finish a key gen) and the tunnel gets expensive.

    A planned trade (two healthy, path prepped, pallets/window in reach) shifts the value: the killer might get the down, but loses too much time/position. The killer can build proxy pressure (patrol, angle, threaten a hit), but they don’t press the unhook button.

    Whether the unhook is unsafe comes from survivor decisions: who goes, when the pull happens, where the tank happens, which path is prepped, and whether others are on gens or just standing around.

    Good macro (survivor side):
    Unhook only when two gens are already 50%+ (or done — those extra 10 seconds survivors got are strong, use them). Two healthy screen the line, the tunneled survivor runs to a prepared strong tile → even if there’s a down, gens/progress and position are already far ahead.

    Bad macro (tunnel becomes ez):
    Instant unhook, everyone heals at hook, people left gens early, nobody on gens → quick re-down and the map stood still. After the unhook, the chase even drifts into high-prog gens (which the hook player could’ve seen — watch it), and no cover happens.

    No. I'm talking about how your argument is rubbish. No one mentioned 3-genning.

    Fact is: the mere fact that the killer can tunnel once survivors neglect their macro forces them to play smart if they don’t want the tunnel — and that means: avoid it. And that often means → pull the chase away from relevant zones, don’t path the most optimal structures, no gen-greed between or inside key gens, don’t risk too many injuries in important zones. As long as the threat of a hard tunnel exists the moment survivors make those mistakes, it buys a lot of time for the killer → because survivors have to shape their macro plan around it. If you disadvantage tunneling per se, survivors can fully neglect their macro on this point, freely gen-greed, not care where they go down, or drag the killer into zones that are irrelevant for tunneling. That’s the logic.

    Call it “rubbish” if you want — it doesn’t change the equation.

    The anti-tunnel window takes pressure off the unhook: less need for setup/bodyblocks/positioning (aka less caution, “the killer can’t anyway”).
    The saved team time turns straight into gen time (greed on/between key gens).
    Result: more gen percent per unhook, even if the killer plays it correctly.

    Once anti-tunnel is active, it’s worth it for survivors to gen-greed and cut macro (setup/paths/screening) — purely by the numbers we’re talking ~½ to >1 gen progress per unhook window with 2–3 survivors pumping, no big setup needed. And if the killer still hard tunnels and someone dies early, +25% repair and no regression/blocks kick in → even more “free gen time.”
    Anti-tunnel = less setup, more gen-greed, more percent per pull — and all that without the big dead-hook threat breathing down your neck. And for what? For letting the survivor side get away with worse play.

    But when tunnelling does this, who cares, right?

    We should—because tunneling isn’t a free handout, it’s a priced choice (time/position: pickup → carry → hook → refind → second chase — and no, against strong players it isn’t “free”: it takes clean movement/pathing, tight mindgames at pallets/windows, power economy & cooldown management, pre-cutting routes and zoning to deny strong tiles, knowing when to fake vs. commit, tracking spawns/rotations, and macro - miss a read and you burn the window, lose position, or hand out distance).

    It only prints value when survivors misplay macro. The PTB changes hand out post-unhook freebies (safety + info delay, even +25% repair & no regression/blocks on early deaths), so outcome comes from the patch, not smart survivor play.

    Yeah, that doesn't do anything to refute that tunnelling frustrates the learning process.

    Even in true newbie v. newbie, pressure is how people learn. Safe unhooks, gen split, pathing away from key tiles, timing—those are the exact skills tunnelling tests. If the patch hands out post-unhook freebies (safety + info delay, then +25% repair & no regression on early deaths), survivors can ignore that macro and still get paid. That doesn’t teach; it carries.

    And,.. some frustration is part of asym PvP—no pressure, no learning curve, no real trade-offs. That’s PvP: you’re not alone; there are other humans in the lobby. If you want zero frustration, cozy single-player or co-op is the move.

    It’s always going to feel frustrating when the other side wins — that’s just PvP.

    Except historically, pretty much ALL killers do better at high MMR than middle or lower. There were a few that had minor drops or stayed the same while the rest pushed higher kill rates, which suggests that it's not a selection effect at all: Higher MMR is just more killer-sided.

    KR = pure vibes. A 3K after 5 completed gens counts the same as a 3K at 0 gens. First one feels like “I bled for it,” second is a steamroll. KR can’t tell the difference.

    Pace matters. As killer it’s about buying time: pickup → carry → hook → refind → 2nd chase. If survivors split/save clean, that’s expensive — KR doesn’t see it. KR also can’t tell if they ignored macro and still printed progress.

    PTB anti-tunnel makes it even greedier: post-unhook freebies + info delay = survivors skip setup/bodyblocks and pump gens.
    And if you look closer, you see it constantly: tons of 4Ks were a survivor win if they just accept the -1 instead of forcing the 4-man like it’s their birthright.

    Or situations like:

    • One is dead hook in a dead zone, gens are done, gates ready. Best option: 3 out. Instead: hero save → bad trade → chain downs → ends 0/1 out.
    • Gate 99, killer holds the choke. Just cut losses. Instead: bodyblock for style points, eat an M1, get pushed into EGC → snowball.
    • “Last unhook” with no setup, everyone injured, no path → 2 freebies + hook swap. 10s greed becomes 30–60s of killer time → wipe.
    • Heal party at hook instead of resetting offsite → I peek a corner, tag two → hook swap + free pressure, 0 gen percent in that window.
    • Unhook in my LOS (no angle/screen) → pull through my face, double hit, rescuer injured, rescued with no path → fast re-down.
    • Chase through the gen cluster instead of out into dead space → team leaves gens, I hold the cluster and get info for free.
    • Tap mentality: three gens at 40–70% instead of finishing one → every kick buys me minutes, your progress evaporates.
    • Perma-injured (no offsite reset) → short chases, recycled hooks, map pressure stays mine.

    Lots of 4Ks are really 3-outs thrown in the midgame. Take the -1 and leave — that’s a survivor win. Forcing the 4-man from a losing state just feeds the snowball.

    Which is still better than the absolute absence of any and all evidence that has been presented to support any claims about the game being survivor-sided.

    It's always anec-data being thrown up and tired, desperate shadows of arguments being regurgitated over and over again with a hell of a lot of dogmatic thinking behind it.

    If your only “evidence” is a blunt outcome number (KR), that’s not a rebuttal—it’s a hammer that makes everything look like a nail. Show stratified data (MMR, SWF vs. solo, maps, killer picks), or stop yelling “anecdotes!” while waving a single number.

    I’ve already shared recordings from comp matches (strong survivors vs. strong killers) where the survivor side wins pretty consistently — even with tight survivor-side limits. I’ve also posted VODs from my own matches. It’s all there, free to analyze.

    Meanwhile you’re waving a single number that’s shaped by a ton of pub-lobby noise and a not-so-great MMR system. KR is an aggregate outcome, not proof — it’s heavily influenced by lobby mix , resets/decay, softplay/ farming, altruism, and mis-matched MMR. If you want evidence, analyze the footage; don’t hide behind one blunt metric.

    Do you have short term amnesia?

    You do realise that this plays exactly to my argument, right?

    Stealth was a valid, viable tool for survivors and got gutted anyway, because killers disliked it.

    So why is tunnelling being a 'valid, viable tool' for killers any reason for it to not get gutted?

    My experience isn’t yours. In my lobbies, stealth was mostly defended by stealth players only. Teammates usually hated it (often even outing the stealth player to the killer), and killers liked seeing a stealth gamer because it slowed the match and basically handed them an easy win. Different lobbies, different experiences—I get that, but that’s what I’ve consistently seen.

    A bad tunnel that turns too expensive is a killer’s own decision; if I commit and it costs me, I just sabotaged myself. A stealth teammate, though, forces the rest of the team into a 3v1 (or 2.5v1) with zero agency to fix i

    Back when old Distortion was around, you’d often see teammates outing the stealth player out of frustration (pointing, sandbagging, dragging the killer over) — which kind of proves the point: the frustration was aimed at the stealther from the survivor side, not some killer conspiracy.

    A too-expensive tunnel punishes the killer who chose it. A stealth teammate punishes everyone else who didn’t choose it. Different tools, different impact on team experience.

    Only my experience. but maybe in your lobbys stealth was a bigger thing. different mmr, different lobbys i guess.

    As killer I’m always happy to get stealth players—if you actually run into them. It’s an easy, chill win in between the sweaty games.

  • oecrophy
    oecrophy Member Posts: 448
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002460#Comment_4002460

    We're a lot more inclined to believe that many killers hyper relied on tunneling and 

    those 

    implications rather than that breaking balance…ya know, considering its seen across the board even when it would be stupid to do.

    What time and what region were you playing?
    In my group it was more mixed, and we actually saw less tunneling than in average pub lobbies on live. Most people just wanted to test the new changes.

    You realize most of the map is RNG generated correct?

    What are you trying to say?
    Sure, some strong structures have fixed spawns. For the rest, good survivor macro is just reading the RNG fast and leveraging it. That’s a normal part of the game.

    You realize the broader population would then need things like the tunneling nerf correct? As the broader population does not do perfect plays nor can things like solos having real time coordination to combat it. So we'd ask if you want to balance for the broader population, why was the ptb anti tunneling bad (

    not

     

    the whole 

    ptb before you jump sharks)?

    Wrong layer. The issue is entry-level MMR + missing onboarding/solo info. A global anti-tunnel bubble hits every MMR and flips matches where it isn’t needed (and can be outright harmful).
    Constructive: fix MMR/onboarding, expand solo info. Protect true newbies, yes — but not with global freebies that reward ignoring macro and distort games across all lobbies.

    So if you know theres a survivor working on a important gen (it has progress) yet you can't find them, do you hunt that survivor or do you leave the gen? Depends on the situation correct? Cause if that one is say one of the last 3 gens and theres 2-3 alive, your going to be at risk of one of the others popping. If its the start you'd need to decide if that gen is worth the effort. The good stealth gameplan is forcing the killer to choose from two choices: either buying time for the team by having the killer hunt you down or get them to f off while you work.

    Stealth dumps the cost on the team: one guy brings 0 pressure/info/saves, the other three are basically playing 3v1. In SoloQ that’s not a “gameplan,” that’s grief by proxy. And against me it doesn’t work. Your “force the killer to pick” idea is a huge gamble: defending a progressed gen while all four are alive is EV-bad unless the team is disorganized. So of course I leave the gen and take hook pressure / hard tunnel—that’s guaranteed pressure on the scoreboard. Trying to hold that gen is a coin flip that only pays if the lobby is chaos or super low MMR. Versus any coordinated team you’re not saving that gen anyway; you win by removing a player, not by babysitting a tile.

    Which does nil against aura reading. In fact some of those lose seconds seconds against the smarter killers. And some of those aren't even stealth if we're honest.

    Oh wow—how new are you that you don’t know aura perks all have range/duration/trigger limits and hard counters?

    Aura is ultra limited and not a big deal during a nrmal chase.

  • UnicornMedal
    UnicornMedal Member Posts: 1,528
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001920#Comment_4001920

    As usual, everything with DBD is anecdotal but I personally don't buy this argument so much. In my own experience, I only remember one trial in particular where a Survivor was running it purely to rat for hatch. I think it likely had a lot more to do with Killer being unable to find Survivors over Survivors sabotaging their own team. That was the same time where Survivors were more likely to hide once the trial bottlenecked, which BHVR has nerfed a couple times already purely in Killer's favor. But selfishness was a good enough excuse to advocate and push for those nerfs without criticism (in my opinion).

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001926#Comment_4001926

    To be totally fair, Distortion was always popular but definitely gained prominence both after the buff and when tunneling out the first Survivor became even more common. I'm not ashamed to admit that letting someone else get tunneled out first became the proper play. It was like turning lemons into lemonade. In that situation, you would ideally want to address tunneling instead of nerfing one of the few defenses against it (despite how messy it was) but as we know that is not what happened.

  • oecrophy
    oecrophy Member Posts: 448
    edited September 17
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002600#Comment_4002600

    My experience with Distortion survivors: I didn’t see it that often, and during the big Distortion wave I was in a different meta anyway, so it didn’t tilt me.

    When I did see it, it was usually people waiting for someone else to take first chase, trying to shed the tunnel, and not covering dead hooks even with a clear tunnel and two hook states left—you can step in there, even if you go down, the killer usually has a clear target anyway.

    I probably get different lobbies than Firellius (~500h); vs brand-new killers stealth might work and they’ll play hide-and-seek, but in my lobbies killers grab pressure elsewhere instead of searching forever. (same as i do)

    Watching some of them in spectate, the camera control/movement often looked like Distortion put them in lobbies they didn’t belong in; when they finally met the killer it was insta-down. I’ve always been relaxed about it because as survivor you don’t control your team—once you hit ready you accept whoever you get; they might be doing achievements/challenges, meme runs, recording YouTube, whatever. You can’t expect optimal, team-win play with randoms. For what it’s worth, I never sold Distortion players to the killer, but I saw plenty of randoms deliberately feeding the stealth player; from killers I rarely saw toxic after-chat. Different lobbies, different experiences.

    idk. Only my experience.

    As killer, Distortion never bothered me tbh. As surv? sometimes, y. but it was super rare …

    but uhm.. it was super rare—and I never had a problem taking the tunnel if the distortion ppl didn’t want chase and were otherwise doing their job. What did annoy me was when there’s no cover even though teammates are right there and could bodyblock—but you see that with or without Distortion (BHVR, better matchmaking pls).
    buut.. I heard way more Distortion hate from survivors than from killers—like, a lot more.

  • coolgue1
    coolgue1 Member Posts: 249

    the last 2 year every patch buffs killers like multiple of them to the point of no brainer so yes they very much doo

  • UnicornMedal
    UnicornMedal Member Posts: 1,528
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002609#Comment_4002609

    I never understand the hate either. I saw a lot of Survivors that were severely anti go next as well despite knowing how solo trials tend to play out.

  • oecrophy
    oecrophy Member Posts: 448
    edited September 17
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002614#Comment_4002614

    Killer nerfs the last 2 years:

    late 2023: anti-facecamping landed. if you park under hook, a bar fills and the hooked survivor can bail, so hard camping got way worse. skull merchant lost the turtle-gen cheese (active zones gone, drones don’t lock gens the same anymore).

    a bit after that: trickster got louder and slower in effect — terror radius bumped from 24→32m, needs 8 knives to injure instead of 6, decay doesn’t help you as much. stealth/ttk definitely worse.

    early 2024: 3-gen cap showed up — each gen only gets 8 regression events, so pure “kick & hold” stall is nerfed. save the best for last is weaker: 4% per token (was 5%), and you drop 2 tokens whenever the obsession loses a health state in any way, not just a basic hit. blight lost several top add-ons (blighted crow/rat less rush speed; adrenaline vial + alchemist’s ring reworked/toned down).

    spring 2024: ultimate weapon got smacked — no more scream, just aura read, duration halved (30→15s) and a fatter cooldown (up to 80/70/60). way less free info/interrupts.

    summer 2024: blight and billy both moved to a 40m terror radius (harder to sneak or proxy). xenomorph tail charge slowed from 0.2→0.3s, so the poke is less instant.

    summer 2025: finishing mori only works if at least two survivors are still up — no more “last guy = free mori.” haste perks trimmed: unbound 10%→7% (lasts longer but net weaker) and machine learning 10% → 8%

    later 2025: pig’s john’s medical file crouch speed bonus is 10%→5% (base pig got love elsewhere, but the add-on itself is a nerf).

    and lookin at ehe perks:

    Deadlock — shorter block now: 15/20/25s instead of 20/25/30, so less free stall.

    Grim Embrace — early locks are weaker (6/8/10s instead of 8/10/12) and it only triggers after you leave the anti-camp zone at the hook.

    Pop Goes the Weasel — kick regression down (current progeess.)

    Pain Resonance — regression is 10/15/20% instead of 15/20/25%.

    Dead Man’s Switch (rework) — only blocks one gen now and can’t retrigger while it’s active, so no more multi-gen lock.

    … meanwhile surv buffs the last 2 years:

    late 2023: anti-facecamping went live. camp under hook and a bar fills so the hooked player can bail with Endurance — way more agency, especially in soloq. skull merchant’s gen-turtle nonsense got gutted as part of the same wave.

    early 2024: 3-gen stall got capped — each gen only eats a limited number of hard regress events, so pure “kick & hold” is way weaker and endgames feel less doomed on bad spawns.

    mid/late 2024 perk glow-up: teamwork perks lost their cooldowns and got “linger,” Corrective Action upgrades teammates’ misses to Greats, Inner Focus shows way more info with no range limit, Blood Rush got simplified (focus on that fast Exhaustion recovery after unhook), Quick Gambit works from anywhere + shows teammate auras while you’re chased (with a CD), Lucky Star lingers long enough to matter, and Poised even pings Killer aura when you start a gen. Cleaner, stronger, easier to trigger overall.

    also 2024 mini-buffs: Blast Mine/Wiretap/Flashbang trigger sooner, Diversion/Deception/Dance With Me have shorter CDs, and the “newer” toys like Mirrored Illusion & Chemical Trap ask for way less gen progress to activate.more frequent value for deception/utility builds.

    system/QoL bumps around then: survivor spawns got standardized (closer together, same floor when possible), “go-next” griefing started getting flagged/penalized, surrender became possible in truly unwinnable states, and AFK crows got stricter so extreme hiding stalls less. Fewer throwy lobbies, less time-waste.

    mid 2025 perk pass: Botany dropped the med-kit efficiency penalty (finally), Champion of Light & Light-Footed got shorter CDs, Desperate Measures got fatter numbers, Exultation refunds a lot more item juice on pallet stuns, Counterforce zooms through totems and marks the far one longer, and Empathic Connection went basically map-wide (plus a tidy heal bonus). Big usability jump for team sustain/info.

    Empathic Connection got buffed hard: injured teammates basically see your aura map-wide now, plus a small heal boost.

    Also a bunch of perk touch-ups: Any Means Necessary, Appraisal, Better Together (Situational Awareness), Built to Last, Déjà Vu, Detective’s Hunch, Potential Energy, Still Sight — all cleaner and give value more often. Streetwise got reworked to play nicer with items. Not OP, just way more usable.

    not to forget the release of Shoulder and other strong perks

    Post edited by oecrophy on
  • oecrophy
    oecrophy Member Posts: 448
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002640#Comment_4002640

    When the arguments run out, the downvotes show up. Patch notes don’t change because of that. Downvotes aren’t an argument — examples are.

    We’re talking system hits over the last two years: anti-facecamping (basekit escape meter on hook), a hard 3-gen cap, Ultimate Weapon lost the scream + half the duration + longer CD, Save the Best for Last lost value and –2 tokens whenever the Obsession loses a health state in any way, Dead Man’s Switch rework (only blocks one gen, no re-trigger while it’s active), Deadlock/Pop/Pain Res trimmed, Blight/Billy to 40m TR, Xeno tail charge slower, and Finishing Mori only works with ≥ 2 survivors alive. If that’s “light,” what would “heavy” look like?

    And since you explicitly said the last 2 years: there were no big map reworks. Mostly small tile/collision passes and targeted tweaks. The big rework wave was before that.

    If you still want to talk map changes and we only look at the last 2 years (the biggest ones were earlier), then here’s the 2-year snapshot:
    Ormond (early 2024) — front used to be a dead zone, got real loops; back area with short, unsafe pallets plays better now → slightly survivor-sided.
    Coldwind (summer 2024) — new/varied maze tiles plus more lockers → slightly survivor-sided.
    Garden of Joy & MacMillan (late 2024) — mostly collision/map fixes → neutral (QoL for both sides, no clear power swing).
    Eyrie of Crows — main building update: window positions changed, balcony now has outward drops; tile pool cleaned up (fewer micro collisions) and new double-pallet tiles added → cleaner flow, slight killer lean for some killers; map plays better for killer overall

    The forum can feel like a survivor echo chamber — don’t care. If you want to refute this, bring concrete examples from the last 24 months (clips/patch notes). Otherwise it’s opinion vs. facts.

  • Cassiopeiae
    Cassiopeiae Member Posts: 385

    DbD favours profit.

  • oecrophy
    oecrophy Member Posts: 448
    edited September 17
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002642#Comment_4002642

    Killrate ~60% is a thermostat, not proof killers are "OP". EC was just an example.

    Last 2 years killers ate: anti-facecamp basekit, hard 3-gen cap, UW gutted, STBFL −2 tokens on any Obsession health state, DMS = 1 gen only.
    “Survivors get nothing” is storytime, not fact — EC was one example (of many - and not a judgment on its meta viability). to bust that “we get nothing, killers get everything” narrative.

    And no, I’m not ranking or rating anything — just facts, because that narrative is absurd and crazy wild.

  • Raccoon
    Raccoon Member Posts: 8,134

    Exciting thread.