http://dbd.game/killswitch
balance of the game
The question is how do you balance a game where the killer has multiple modes with a range of difficulties depending on the killer and survivors have 2 modes (solo and swf)?
Everyone knows soloq is awful due to the many survivors that refuse to touch gens or troll or simply going for adept or any number of reasons. And everyone knows swf provides tactical advantages that solo will never be able to obtain, such as coms, all being on the same page with the same common goal and perk synergy. With survivor role being drastically split into essentially hard mode (solo) and easy mode (swf), how do you balance killer v survivor?
Should we balance for killer v swf or solo? low tier killers v swf or high tier killers v solo? should survivors be able to win a team game without playing as a team? should people be forced to play with friends in order to stand a chance? These are the questions that people should be asking. i believe if we answer these questions and get true balance with solo and swf it will make it far easier to balance killer v survivor as a whole. This balance will then have a knock on effect with things that killers feel they need to do to compete such as tunneling, slugging, camping or even using top tier killers.
So far i have seen perks used as bandaids for the symptoms of the problem without addressing the root cause. these perks effect ALL survivors and ALL killers regardless of solo, swf or particular killer. Same with the recent slugging/tunneling test. Its a blanket bandaid that tars all killers and all survivors (ragardless of what tier killer it is or if its solo or swf) with the same brush. This way of thinking will not solve the root cause and will only lead to shifting the unbalanced problem areas else where.
For example, anti tunneling and slugging game mechanics that applies across the board targets the killers that are op and need the nerf but also targets the low tier killers and cripples them even more than they already are. Likewise with survivor, buff gen speeds or increase pallet count helps solo survivors which could do with the help but also buffs swf which really doesnt need more help. It helps people compete against high tier killers while making low tier killers with no speed or anti loop powers worse than they already are.
Personally, i think everyone should stand a chance at winning and having fun regardless of killer or solo or swf. ideally SWF should be nerfed somehow. The reason i say this is because they use 3rd party apps such as discord to communicate. If dbd was built around coms then they would have been available from the start for everyone. However, there is no way to ensure people dont use coms or dont talk while they play in the same room together so i dont see that happening. Which leaves only 1 option, buff soloq without buffing swf. we can add voice chat or perk visibility but you can never force survivors to play as a team, if someone wants to do totems for a challenge instead of the gen right next to them there is no way to force them to get on the same page as the rest of team.
Its a complex issue, and one i truly believe will never be solved due to the nature of the game. This is why solo and swf need to be played differently just like each killer needs to be played differently. what might work for nurse might not work for pig. what might work for swf might not work for solo. swf makes use of the team work, solo should make use of the solo nature, think more selfishly than swf would. It seems to work for me.
Comments
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ideally SWF should be nerfed somehow
THAAAAANK you
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Buffing soloq is one thing, but nerfing SWF is absurd. There's no single SWF experience. I play SWF. Sometimes with one person. Sometimes two. Sometimes a full squad. Sometimes on comms, sometimes not. I have a 39% ER. SWF doesn't mean you're going to be coordinated. It often means you're going to be overly altruistic and die trying to save teammates. It's not an insatwin. Punishing people for having friends is crazy.
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I once had an idea where you could que for solo quick play that would take 5 players and choose one of them randomly to be Killer. I think this would take a lot of the sweat out of the Killer role because you will often be facing someone who isn't primarily focused on Killer maining. Think of this as casual quick play for solos.
Killer mains could still que for Killer only role but you will be paired against SWF que. If a SWF has 3 players, one player can be grabbed from solo que. Think of this as more competitive mode.
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They should focus on fun DBD isn't that serious to begin with, take a hint about 2v8 popularity, the game needs fresh ideas… Let's say the biggest pain points are "tunneling" and "gen rushing", if you adress those the experience becomes more enjoyable for everyone
then you can worry about min-maxing balance, balance tweaks can always come later it's not that big of a deal… it's surprising how much the community fears any kind of change
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swf still offers tactical advantages that solo does not. even a 2 man swf means half the survivor team is atleast on the same page. no one should have a tactical advantage because they play with a friend or if they play solo while the killer has no option but play solo. you say punishing people for having friends is crazy but solo players are being punished for not having friends with lack of coms. no one saying punish people for having friends, but having friends isnt a free pass to use external 3rd part apps to tilt the balance of the game. What is absurd is that people can use external apps like discord and gain a tactical advantage. If swf want to keep this advantage it seems only fair to nerf them in other ways to even the balance. i never said swf is instant win but the game isnt built around coms thats why it isnt available to all players.
You might not always use coms as swf but the vast majority do and even if they dont, they still more or less have a choice to use discord if they wish. thats something solo players dont have….choice. can you imagine the drama if killers like nurse and blight were allowed to use 3rd party apps to gain an advantage but other killers like ghoul and unknown had this option removed? Thats essentially whats happening with solo and swf.
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The only issue with that is swf casual players that to want meme wont be happy being thrown into competitive matches v killer only q. generally i like the principle of the idea though, quick and casual solo and more serious swf. can even buff and nerf killers to fit whatever mode. maybe tunneling nerfs for solo and no rules v swf or somthing
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You might not always use coms as swf but the vast majority do and even if they dont, they still more or less have a choice to use discord if they wish. thats something solo players dont have….choice
First, is that "vast majority" based on any real data or are you just assuming? And if there was data, would it say whether people are being tactical or just bsing on a call while playing?
Second, I don't have a choice most of the time. Half my friends are crossplay random adds. I have no way to even get their discord handles. If the game had an inbox, it would be different.
Third, you're making it sound like soloqers are sad victims. Literally just add people. Boom, now you have friends. I don't know a single one of the people I play with in real life. Of the ones I've even been able to communicate with, not one is even in the same country as me. SWF is just a couple friend requests away.
But if you want to make this argument, let's use you and I as a sample. Both of us have about 40% overall, yes? Yet I've plateaued there, and I haven't queued up solo in months. According to your previous posts, your stats are on the rise, with a 40%-50% ER monthly thanks to playing selfish. So the selfish soloqer is doing better than the altruistic SWF player. How does that help your argument?
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from what i been hearing 2 v 8 really isnt popular. it has a good killer audience because its the only time 2 killers can play together and its handy for doing some tomes and challenges. but fun? everyone i talked to in game said they hated it and only playing it for the easy challenges. oni/legion combo over and over or wesker every match.
Like i said, tunneling and gen rush cant be addressed because of the huge imbalance between solo and swf. solo and swf need to be balanced first. swf have the coordination to gen rush to compete with tunneling that cant really be achieved in solo, killers often have tunnel to compete with gen speeds. solo1 takes the brunt of these issues more than anyone.
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pretty much every swf i have ever gone against as killer uses coms and its clear they use coms when they know im around the corner with no possible way of knowing as they dont have line of sight or aura reads. its very easy to spot swf on coms just by the types of plays they do.
You can call it "on a call while playing" but are you seriously telling me that this call where people can call out the killers location, hex totem locations, gen locations, negate all stealth builds and dont need aura reading perks because if 1 person knows something the whole swf team knows….your telling me that provides no tactical advantage at all? come on…
In your case, cross play random adds wouldnt be far off from soloq. you dont really know eachother and dont have coms. i would say thats solo play and that is how it should be, swf without the advantages. much like solo players going into a match find a ttv and watch their stream. they gain advantages regular players dont have. solo players with the advantages of swf communication. which is why its near enough to impossible to strictly nerf solo or swf and why i dont think the game will ever achieve true balance.
i dont see how being in the same or different country makes a difference, or knowing these people in real life or not. you seem to think if you add random people then boom your swf but thats not the case at all. all you have done is create a premade lobby of random solo players.
maybe the reason you have plateaued and mine is on the rise is because your not in a real swf with coms, you add random people and call it swf but your still playing solo but also play altruistic like swf which isnt effective because like you said your not always on coms and end up getting yourself killed. i play strictly solo but there are so many matches i would have won if i had the coms available like a simple call out where that noed totem is.
when i say swf needs nerfs i dont mean people that add randoms and then play a match as if its a solo match, im talking about people that start up the game already in a team together and hop on coms to gain an advantage by using something thats not built into the game. like i said would you be ok with certain killers gaining an advantage using 3rd party apps but other killers not having this option? by all means add random people add people you know or dont know but when when you start using 3rd party apps it changes the balance
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Boogie man swf is always silly the numbers don't lie. And at absolute best you have a fair match of 50/50 vs a swf but really it's much lower.
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your not in a real swf with coms
So then what is a "real SWF" then? How does one identify it? Because that term gets thrown around a lot. Sometimes I'm on comms, sometimes I'm not, yet it reads in-game as a party either way.
But you are making my point for me. SWF takes many forms. That's why nerfs for parties are unfair. They're all different. The only way to balance for comms is to add open VC and that would be nightmarish.
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Not to mention that the last time we were shown kill rates, SWF was nerfed.
They will always be the bogeymen of DBD. No matter what happens with the game, they will always be the scapegoats.
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A good change would be to show in the lobby that you are versing a SWF. I think it's only fair since it requires a completely different mindset. Most killers won't dodge lobbies, cause they don't want to wait another 10mins just to play the lottery. That 'some' might do it sounds like a fair sacrifice to me. At least at this point we know beforehand that we are going to have to play more tactically with our meme build.
Even if its just 4 randoms that came together on discord, there is a massive shift in gameflow just for having communication like that. Gens are going to be very efficient and you generally never have to be afraid to get caught by stealth which indirectly adds to the efficiency of gens. This is why many matches are done in under 5 mins… I think its fair to say I speak for most killers when I say "We don't want to sit in a 10min Q just to get sent back to it in under 5mins"… Losing is not the problem here. The problem is getting no value out of our game time.
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As i have already explained SWF with coms is what im talking about being a real SWF. And i agree, you cant determine who has coms, whos using 3rd party apps, who is sitting in the same room playing together communicating. Thats exactly why i said "ideally" SWF should be nerfed somehow but acknowledging that is an impossible task and i even said "Its a complex issue, and one i truly believe will never be solved due to the nature of the game."
Thats why i personally feel the game can never and will never be balanced. I agree VC should be introduced to solo so solo have the option swf has, however the devs wont do that and if they did the whole game would need to be changed to take into account coms, all aura perks for example that would become redundant would need to be changed, killer powers like stealth killers would need a rework. It wouldnt be DBD anymore.
You still havnt answered my question, would you be ok with some killers using 3rd part apps to gain an advantage while other killers are denied this option? Same situation as solo and swf. some survivors can have coms but others cant. its the same thing.
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This should defiantly be a thing. Most games show in lobby who has a mic for example, dbd doesnt show that because its assumed no one has a mic as its not available in game. There should be atleast a heads up for the killer they are going against solo or swf. Survivors often say they want to see what killer they are going against when this is brought up, but the killer is always solo. Survivors also use 3rd party apps to know how long the q time is and what killer they are going against. i know this because i was solo survivor and said in prematch lobby "i hope its not ghoul again" someone said "nope its bubba". It was bubba and when asked how they knew they admitted to having an app that tells them. they claimed it isnt reportable which if coms are allowed then maybe they were right and its not reportable, i dont know.
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What numbers? The numbers BHVR releases themselves? Okay lmao Anyone with two eyes and who plays this game knows that SWF are a problem and SoloQ is atrocious, who cares what pr numbers BHVR releases. Honestly.
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The question is how do you balance a game where the killer has multiple modes with a range of difficulties depending on the killer and survivors have 2 modes (solo and swf)?There are a few questions that actually come before the how.
1: How important is balance? BHVR's philosophy, with the 60/40 goal, is that it is a secondary goal to things like game feel.
2: How important is variety? If they introduced a new killer with a new mechanic that was a lot of fun for both sides, would the balance be an issue? It's easy to imagine that if they were wildly out of whack either way they'd quickly become unfun, but if a killer is a little weak or a little strong, but fun and engaging, I think that is a more important consideration.
3: Are we balancing short term or long term? I think this is a point that is missed in these topics. Most games (symmetrical) have an easier time achieving balance - they give both sides the same choice of heroes / weapons, they mirror the map, both sides get a chance at the objective. DbD's goal is long term, maybe you get a map that favors the other side, and maybe the perk selection goes against you, so the individual trial isn't balanced, but in the long run these RNG factors balance out.
4: Should we reward more challenging play? This is mostly a killer issue, but comes up with some survivor perks. If a killer has a higher skill difficulty to learn and play, should they ultimately be stronger than a killer who is quick and easy to pick up (Wraith vs Blight)?
5: Are we talking balance under the assumption MMR works, or are we talking balance when people of differing skill levels hit each other?
6: Is there a particular MMR level that should be the focus or are we discussing the best balance for all MMR groups?
7: Is kill rate a good balance metric or should it be something else?
Different players are going to have different opinions on those questions so you are always going to get varied answers on the how because people have different goals in mind.
And everyone knows swf provides tactical advantagesOutside of a the extreme ends of the spectrum, I think SWFs are a bit of a red herring to the discussion.
1: If MMR works, MMR balances this out in the long run. For simplicity imagine MMR was on a scale of 1 to 10. If a group of players are a 5 on the skill level, but playing together takes them up to a 6, in time they'll hit killers who are also at the 6 skill level.
2: Having varied players can be more of a disadvantage than the coms. If people are playing with their friends, and they are a 7, two 5s, and a 3, the 3 is going to bring the other players down more than if they were given soloq survivors of their same skill level.
For example, anti tunneling and slugging game mechanics that applies across the board targets the killers that are op and need the nerf but also targets the low tier killers and cripples them even more than they already are.This doesn't take into account that changes will continue to be made to the game post any type of anti-tunnel / anti-slug. If it ends up that a certain killer was way too dependent on tunneling, once that is taken away and their kill rates drop, they can be buffed to make up for it.
If dbd was built around coms then they would have been available from the start for everyone.I'm a 100% soloq player, but BHVR has been very clear they are okay with coms and that they always planned for SWFs to be in the game, they just didn't have time before their initial release.
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Experiences already vary wildly. That's just the way it is. Some players have advantages. A really good headset lets you hear more than basic speakers. A giant, high definition TV is better than a Switch screen. Lots of PC killers use shaders, something many have no access it and gives an unfair advantage, but there isn't much anyone can do about it.
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There was talks about possibly banning shaders since bhvr introduced gamma setting for all players. Shaders being used for an advantage benefits survivors and killers and jas been a big talking talking point for a long time.
So if there isnt anything that anyone can do about it then you would be ok with some killers using 3rd party apps to gain an advantage while others cant? cheaters use 3rd party tools to gain an advantage, not much can be done about that as they just make a new account when they get banned, is that acceptable too?
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Well they already are using them with shaders, so I guess I have to be okay with it.
Comparing discord to cheating is wild though. Games are built with with the knowledge of discord in mind. If discord suddenly disappeared, the game would likely die, and KRs would go through the roof.
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i myself use shaders for brightness and saturation of the red/orange colors simply so i can spot scratch marks more easily due to my bad eyesight. For some of us simple gamma changes isnt enough without shaders toba landing and coldwind is borderline unplayable
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But your own argument of "cant do anything about it" to justify using 3rd party apps to gain an advantage is flawed as i have just proven.
Your suggesting discord and the use of coms would impact kill rate? So your saying coms is NEEDED?
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I'm saying the game has already been balanced around comms, intentionally or not, because they've been consistently present in the gameplay and would reflect in the numbers. For one, if all these teams couldnt talk, they'd likely stop playing. That's why the game would die. You'd have a mass exodus of survivor players. They'll go play something with open VC with their buddies. I probably would barely touch the role either anymore as I already mostly avoid solo.
You'd specifically be losing your high-skill upper MMR players. Without communication, they either leave or become worse. So ERs would go down and KRs would go up, and there is already a pretty drastic disparity between survivors having a great ER at 50% and killers having a great KR at 80+%.
The game would need a huge overhaul if discord poofed out of existence. There's a reason it's called "soloq hell." It wouldn't go well for the game if all survivor games became soloq hell.
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The key problem is buffing soloq is buff for swf before antitunnel changes (free borrow time from bill became basekit) sfw have to run it but when it became basekit they have free slot for other perks and soloq got help as well but not so high as swf because swf is like imagining wesker with best addons and perks who can pull every tech from hug techs and insta hug techs etc. against wesker with best perks and addons but without skill and experience to pull these techs which maybe doesnt look much different but its huge gab, one wesker wont catch you that quickly on some loops where his power is weaker and other will get you with much less effort compare to other one. Swf has much higher potencial and even if you play just casualy and have coms you have basicaly best info in the game you know who is killer, where is killer and who is where and whats everybody doing this is huge for game like DBD this basicaly overshadows every info perk survivor can have, you can make saves from basement or hills that are almost impossible for soloq and use perks and items to their full potencial which makes outcome of the game better for you then you would be in soloq with no info and strategies that are important (soloq can do them but its more of a luck that few players know what to do and do it right compare to swf). Having coms is huge thing in every game like I dont mean the push to talk option which not everybody uses but having your friends on discord or teams which gives you huge advantage against other teams/players which dont have it or use it and DBD is game where you shouldnt have that huge info in first place but before devs will touch swf nurse and blight will get nerfed and antitunnel and antislug changes will get into game balanced, maybe houndmaster will get bugfix till this happens.
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That is exactly my point regarding tunneling and slugging. the game is built with that play style in mind. think twins. some killers are designed to tunnel and slug. But the response is always "its not fun" or "if you have to rely on tunneling then you should learn to play properly". That point, i respond with if you need coms to win then maybe learn to play the game properly isntead of using apps not built onto the game? Like you said, remove coms and people will stop playing just like many killers would if tunneling is removed. The difference is tunneling is available for all killers and players and uses only in game mechanics. coms is only available to people in swf and used 3rd party apps. Removing tunneling would mean an overhaul of the game thats why the ptb was delayed. simple number tweaks and slight adjustments wouldnt cut it.
There really is no difference between cheating and coms in my book. both require outside sources, both provide an advantage over the opposition, both cant be 100% stopped. im aware you avoid solo, it shows in your comments but it doesnt change the fact that there is an issue regarding the double standards that survivors have the means and its acceptable to use 3rd party apps to gain an advantage.
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the game is built with that play style in mind.
The game at it's inception was a horror themed hide and seek game. They even marketed it as such.
And yet, here we are: 9 years later where killers have too many aura reading capabilities to reasonably counter play them all, and an "anti hiding" mechanic.
Live service games change, and players adapt or move on.
Regarding "SWF" though, since coordination is so overpowered, then what restrictions do you purpose to put on killers who play in pre mades in 2v8?
Because I can guarantee you defaulted to "no, that's not necessary" in your head and just about every objection you could leverage is why we shouldn't be punishing people for playing with friends.
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So in my opinion…
There needs to be different modes for what can happen… SWF's should have there own mode… Solo's should have there own mode… and Killer's shouldn't be forced to play something they don't want to
Like the Killer should know if there's a possibility of a SWF (Duo's, Trio's and 4 man SWF's) VS a Solo Survivors knowing if the Killer was ready for a SWF
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True games do change, and if the devs want to take the game in the direction of coms then fine, give all players coms not just swf and balance around that. there are plenty of stealth builds and stealth killers that are becoming harder and harder to play because of coms just like survivors cant use stealth as much due to aura read perks.
As for 2 v 8, same applies, if coms are not built into the game they shouldnt be used….simple. No one, not killer or survivor should ever be able to use 3rd party apps to gain an advantage. i played 2 v 8 as solo killer and some team mates were awful and others were really good. i won some i lost some, no coms were needed. bhvr needs to decide, do they want everyone to have coms or not. This wishy washy view that some can but some cant isnt working.
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Despite the high levels of I QUIT drama posting that went on when the patch was announced, most people are probably not going to quit killer. People with 5k hours on their main that have projected themselves onto them aren't going anywhere. You also have people who didn't tunnel to being with (me) and we were also getting basekit buffs in return, so a big rework was exactly what was planned.
Some need comms, particualrly the weaker links on a team. But people don't NEED comms to win. My ER was the same as a soloqer. I've been in matches as both killer and survivor that were absolutely 100% soloq and the team has blended perfectly. People like comms. If that social aspect went away, many would leave.
It's funny how Twins, the absolute least popular killer, is always the default go-to in this discussion. I haven't seen a Twins in 500 matches. They're not going to base the game around Twins. They need to rework Twins to make them appealing as it is.
You can die on the hill of comms = cheating if you want but it makes no sense. I've been in matches with cheaters. You can beat someone on comms. You can't beat a survivor who's flashlight blinding you through the floor or turbosoeeding through the map. They aren't remotely equivalent.
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"some need coms… But people dont need coms to win" you dont see the contradiction in that statement?
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I'm sure there are people that lean on them. I'm not one of them so I can't be sure, nor have i ever met anyone who desperately needed them. Good teams often have weaker, objective-focused links. These will benefit more from team info. But I'm assuming, just like you, a solo player, are also assuming. In my experience, they are wanted more than needed, and it's more about fun than strategy. That's how it's been on every team I've been on. I can't speak for top tier comp teams and bully squads.
The devs would have the data on win rates in regards to parties. If it was an issue, it'd be addressed. They could simply remove partying up if they wanted to.
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exactly the same as tunneling, there are probably people than lean on tunneling and need it. if you apply this rule to coms you have to apply it to tunneling or it shows extreme double standards. people dont find tunneling fun, some killers dont find pre running fun because the team has coms. works both ways. it might be fun for survivors but it doesnt make if fun for the killer. just like tunneling isnt fun for the survivors
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I beg to differ, i played this game for years and have like 3k hours, i 100% would quit the killer role completely if tunneling got removed like it would have done if the ptb changes went through. i was preparing myself with what games to change to and still am just incase it ever does happen and countless people in game and the forums felt that way too. the only way to be sure is let the changes go through and see for yourself. player count would drop and escape rate would go through the roof. not all killers would quit but not all survivors would quit if coms got banned. i wouldnt quit survivor if that happened.
Yes, some people need coms. like some killers need tunneling. people like coms, people like tunneling. when im killer it doesnt make a difference to me in terms of fun if im chasing someone fresh from the hook and has 2 hooks already or if im chasing a fully healed survivor, im still in the chase but tunneling get me in chase faster so i like to tunnel.
im not saying you can beat a cheater but that cheater can help others that are not cheating escape. But you seem to be implying that it is ok to cheat as long as its not overly cheating….like someone could use wall hacks to see the killer. does it mean they will be able to win every match? no. does it give them unfair advantage? absolutely. just because people can lose doesnt make it ok to have an unfair advantage no matter what way you try to slice it.
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Show me where I implied cheating was okay.
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Its implied by your logic twice.
- "A giant, high definition TV is better than a Switch screen. Lots of PC killers use shaders, something many have no access it and gives an unfair advantage, but there isn't much anyone can do about it."
This implies that it is ok for someone to use something external to gain and advantage because there is nothing that can be done about it…. hacking also uses external things to gain an advantage. hackers are not always obvious in their cheats, some are subtle which doesnt give them immortality but does give them an unfair advantage but there is nothing that can be done about it. which bring me to the 2nd instance your logic implies cheating is ok….
2. "I've been in matches with cheaters. You can beat someone on comms. You can't beat a survivor who's flashlight blinding you through the floor or turbosoeeding through the map. They aren't remotely equivalent."
This implies that it is ok to gain an unfair advantage as long as it CAN be countered. So by your logic it is ok to use external sources like coms to gain and advantage because it CAN be beaten and a hacker could apply wall hacks…. the wall hacks doesnt make them invincible, they CAN be beaten. Just because it CAN be beaten doesnt make it right or acceptable.
You dont flat out condone cheating but your double standards have implied it.
you cant stop coms because how do you stop someone talking? with phones and personally being together, you cant so we just allow it in spite of the advantages it provides. using your own logic and arguments this could be applied to using hacks, you cant stop hackers so should we just allow it in spite of the advantages it provides? ofcourse not.
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This might be labeled a false equivalency, but I think if we're going to show that, we should also show the ping for all 5 players and the Killer being played. Then maybe lock in any changes to loadout to counter balance that.
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I would be fine that, many survivors use a Q program that tells them how long the est q time is and what killer they are going against anyway.
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I'm saying everyone is going into this game with a whole different set of advantages and disadvantages. Every single thing you use to play the game is external. By your logic, everyone should have the same screen with the same setting, be on the same platform, using the same sound system, playing in the same environment. And there should absolutely not be crossplay, since KB&M has a huge advantage over controllers, even though crossplay is the whole reason multiplayer games are staying alive for such lengthy periods now. Just like being able to talk to friends keeps people playing survivor, even when they're unhappy with the experience. The ability to link to discord is now built into consoles. It's part of gaming as much as the expensive headset and the giant OLED screen.
Mods, on the other had, are explicitly against the rules and have been deemed unacceptable.
This implies that it is ok to gain an unfair advantage as long as it CAN be countered.
Sort of like tunneling to create a 3v1 at 5gens gives an unfair advantage but can be countered? But that's the one thing that's okay, somehow, because it's built into the mechanics, even though the devs are clearly trying to discourage it. That logic is that it's okay to exploit something until it's exploitablity has been removed.
there are plenty of stealth builds and stealth killers that are becoming harder and harder to play because of coms just like survivors cant use stealth as much due to aura read perks.
Your own example shows that the game is inherenetly balanced around different scenarios. Aura read is off the charts for killers while stealth has been nerfed. It helps me win many of my matches. Against SWF or not, I can still see them. It's likely become so big BECAUSE of SWF.
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you keep comparing survivor gaining unfair advantage to tunneling but tunneling isnt using a separate program. tunneling uses the games on mechanics and is available to all players thats the key difference. if coms was built in to the game and available to all players then it would be the same thing as tunneling as both would be using in game mechanics to their advantage. but it would be to their advantage not an unfair advantage exclusively available to a specific sect of people playing.
obviously everything down to the mouse and monitor could possibly provide an advantage, some things cant be prevented like i said and have already agreed with you on that. But where we differ in opinion is that just because something cant be stopped (coms, external hardware or programs) that doesnt mean we shouldnt be doing what little we can to prevent it. cheating cant be stopped as is evident from the sheer number of cheaters that laugh at a ban then 5min later back with a new account. rightfully bhvr should do what little they can to reduce the numbers atleast. same should apply to coms OR make it so ALL players have the same option the best they can. bhvrs part is the software, the game, this is where they can make a difference and make things balanced the best they can.
How can you justify using external sources to gain an advantage but then in the same breath say mods and hacks is unacceptable? first your argument was that 1 can be countered and the other cant which i disproved by providing a perfect example of how both can be countered. now your saying its because its against the rules. To clarify i dont condone cheating of any kind which includes using coms imo.
survivors can use stealth perfectly fine because killers are reliant on perks to counter it which many killers use gen slow down perks. if aura read was basekit then fair enough but its not. while swf on coms can counter stealth builds without perks and without using basekit through 3rd party coms. i play stealth style killer and survivor and i can honestly say stealth survivor is way easier than playing stealth killer.
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The current system allows you to make friends and choose to speak to them. If it becomes obligatory, it will be hell. Open VC lobbies are the worst part of gaming. God help you if you sound too young, too old, are a woman, or have an kind of inflection or quirk in your vocal patterns. And if you've been insulted for these things and thus mute yourself, you'll be getting sandbagged and griefed. The toxicity would be off the charts. I 100% do not want open VC. Not because of gameplay, but because of humans.
Also, console players can VC with one another. You dont even need to be friends. No external app either, since it's through the platform, just not through the game. Again, games are aware that people can speak.
To clarify i dont condone cheating of any kind which includes using coms imo.
Show me where comms are listed as cheating on BHVR's (or anyone elses) Code of Conduct. You might be tilted about comms, but that's a you thing.
first your argument was that 1 can be countered and the other cant which i disproved by providing a perfect example of how both can be countered.
Remind me how you said you can counter someone who spends the whole game under the floor or inside a wall. And tell me again how you can gain an advantage while playng on a Switch versus someone with the most expensive headset, the best monitor, and an insane PC.
i play stealth style killer and survivor and i can honestly say stealth survivor is way easier than playing stealth killer.
This argument sounds like comms hurt you, specifically, therefore comms are cheating.
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its astounding how anyone can be pro coms but anti coms for all lol. the current system allows to add randoms but doesnt allow coms.
i said someone that is using hacks like wall hacks can be countered which they can because they dont make the survivor unstoppable.
i dont mind coms, it might make stealth more challenging but i tunnel as a counter to even the odds. this is why solo pay the price which im suggesting they need coms like swf so they can handle tunneling like swf can handle it. but your attitude is "no, swf can have coms, solo players can suffer in silence" and it is indeed slience without coms. if people dont want coms they can mute people in game, it would give them choice atleast but you dont want solo players to have a choice, you seem to want a gap between swf and solo by saying swf can have coms but solo should be denied it which is insane. talk about dictatorship lol "these people can have an advantage, but these people shouldnt" mind boggling. but i come across as nuts for advocating equality between solo and swf? topsy turvy world we live in
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You are, again, making soloqers sound like hapless second-class victims. Soloq is a choice, not a rigid and unmoving position. I was soloq until people friended me. That's how you stop being solo. You see someone who meshes well with you and friend them. This is available to everyone. Then they invited me to the in-console, non-third-party VC that all game companies are aware exists. This allows you to choose to be communicative.
People on Steam have easy access to one another's profile (another of those "advantages,", as I can't see other players' total hours) and can easily contact each other. Discord is free. Consoles have VC built-in. Mics are also built into PS controllers. A cheap headset is affordable to anyone who can already afford these devices we're all using. No one is excluded here, but a lot of people don't want to talk and that's fine, but some people won't accept no for an answer. It has to be at least a little bit avoidable for the sake of those people, because open VC in other games often becomes a hate-filled cesspool.
people dont want coms they can mute people in game
This makes it sound like you haven't experienced the joys of open VC for long periods, because you can either 1) suffer through it and hear the worst things you've ever heard come out of people's mouths or 2) get sandbagged because you muted whoever elected themselves leader. With the small buffer in place, in that you have to seek out companionship, the toxicity is pretty much null.
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you have missed my point entirely. you say people shouldnt be punished for playing with friends. equally people shouldnt be punished for playing solo. its not always a choice, new players especially. if they dont have friends to play with they have to play solo and essentially earn friends as they play. in what world is this a normal mindset, have to earn friends by playing in order to join the elite swf coms club. people talk about the new player experience being bed… this is why, people like you that are trying to deny these new solo players the advantage that they could really do with.
i have played online games for over 20 years, games of many different genres. if coms became an issue i simply muted them, they often didnt even know i muted them. back in the days of halo where the teams had coms…. i cant ever imagine having to play without coms to earn friends to then join as a team and finally communicate. im struggling to think of any game that does that. i had a blast playing with random people and made friends along the way. TCM had voice chat, granted that game died but that was certainly not due to coms. i had a great time on that game with random people thanks to coms. if someone played music or started eating their mic i would mute them and enjoy the rest of the game. DBD on the other hand, you have to earn the right to use coms in a swf.
like i said talk about dictatorship lol forcing people to seek out companionship to benefit coms. There is really nothing more i can say on that other than …..wow.
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You don't have to start alone though. Send friend requests to everyone you see and you'll get immediate responses. Send messages, "hey, I'm new and getting my bearings, would you like to play together?" Go on reddit and find people. Go into the section of this very forum that's for meeting up and find people. Message people in the forum you agree with and add each other. I'm the most unsocial person ever and I don't struggle with this. You just have to make the tiniest effort.
I was playing shooters at that time. It was non-stop toxicity. Racial slurs, sexist slurs, anti-lgbt slurs, ageism. I still have hearing problems from some guy screaming into my old school in-ear 15 years ago. This game is already known for its toxity. Being able to say it out loud would be even worse. You call it dictatorship, I call it a buffer for more vulnerable players.
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Okay, I briefly read through this, but I can't really agree with your stances. DBD is inherently not a very competitive game, and you are coming from a competitive mindset, the vast majority of players play to have fun, not to win. The problem of solo q survivor being awful to play isn't because people aren't winning, because obviously metrics show otherwise, its the game is just not fun to play by yourself as a survivor because of how many negative things can impact that fun for what is literally no downside to other players. Body-blocking as a survivor is seen as "troll" by 99% of the community, but in reality its the correct strat in almost all scenarios if you are trying to win as a solo survivor. Tunneling is seen as toxic by the majority of the community but is still done rampantly because its effective and the best way to win as killer. Its not about SWFs vs solo q, or low tier or high tier killers. It's about competitive vs casual audiences and how they fundamentally cannot mix. You constantly see "1600 winstreak on x killer", this is abnormal for any game that is competitive, because you would never be able to actually do that in a game that respects both sides equally in an enjoyable way, and frankly even watching some of those videos to see what these people do (99% of the time its hard tunneling at 5 gens), the killers doing it don't seem like they're having fun either. People need to realize there are times and places for every mindset, and DBD public matches are not a place to be sweating 100% of the time you play, the game is not meant for the kind of push people are throwing on it and have been for quite a while. This is something BHVR needs to address, and quickly at that. People on every single forum are complaining about how they have quit because of how un-fun the game is from both sides, or are becoming for frustrated than enjoyed while playing.
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i agree the casual and comp issue does play a factor in the overall balance of the game. half the team as comp and half are casual wont mix. And like you said soloq isnt fun for many people, winning or not. This is partly because they are in a match with people they cant communicate with. part of what makes swf fun for a lot of people is coms. even when you consider casual players, i think coms can add to the fun of solo if they had it as an option. win or lose, comp or casual, i know i would have way more fun starting a solo match and working together with a random person being able to communicate. as it stands, playing solo feels like your playing with bots, its no wonder some people play selfishly when soloq removes the humanity from the game by making it feel like your playing with bots, its missing that fun factor that swf get to enjoy and i strongly believe people, old and new, casual and comp should be entitled to the same.
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your suggesting new players go out of their way to seek out friends BEFORE they play the game? i dont understand why you cant mute people. instead you expect everyone to earn coms. whats easier? mute and remove your ability to hear people while allowing others to communicate if they wish? or have people searching the internet for randoms which may not always be available to play when they log on so have to search the internet for a friend to play with whenever they want to play dbd?
You say toxicity is bad to justify not having coms but then your also saying people have to rely on others to friend them. its pretty confusing to say people are vile monsters so shouldnt have coms but then say offer to be friends with these potential monsters before you have even spoken to them. surly it makes sense to allow people the choice to communicate in game and if they click they can add eachother, if not then dont add them.
if people are vulnerable or particularly sensitive to things people might say they dont have to have coms enabled. whats the problem with that?
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I already said what the problem is. In a coordinated team game, you will be expected to be on comms, and you might pay in in-gane toxicity if you choose not to engage. It's no like CoD where everyone is kinda doing their own thing and you can mass mute. Coordination would become huge with open VC and speech would be expected. We already people suffering through slurs and being told to off themselves in end game chat. They refuse to turn the chat off though. People CAN mute, but they probably won't, and they'll pay a mental health price for that.
I've added people I played well with only to hop on comms and immediately hear slurs and rage towards everything they dont like. So I delete them. Easy as that. The instances are much, much less than an open lobby though. I usually chat through text before using VC to feel them out anyway. Another good buffer.
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this toxicity exists without coms. people want to do gens and some toxic guy blows the gen on purpose or rats out their team mate. coms being muted wouldnt make a difference. muting someone in tcm didnt increase the level of toxicity in the game so im not sure what basis you have for that claim.
so people can mute but you know they probably wont…thats their choice lol. who are you to decide that for people? your saying people cant be trusted with their freedom to choose and they will make the wrong decision and suffer as a result so your answer is remove their freedom.
Post edited by BoxGhost on-1 -
this is basically the equevelant of the anti-changes in a post but for survivors
"you arent allowed to use meta ######### but killer can with tunneling and slugging"1
