Time to throw my hat into the ring with Pig ideas
1) The Ambush Attack now "roars" when The Pig begins to dash as opposed to when she begins to prepare the dash.
(This will probably be the most debatable part, as it will involve the Hatch. Do keep in mind that I really did try to strike a balance between "RBTs prevent people from escaping through the Hatch" and "Survivors with RBTs are basically screwed if they are the last ones still in the trial.")
2) Adjust the mechanics of inactive Reverse Bear Traps (CHOOSE ONLY ONE FROM BELOW):
NEW ADD-ON: Jigsaw's First Draft (Uncommon)
(This add-on is effectively just the current Jigsaw’s Annotated Plan moved to Uncommon.)
-Does not affect the Jigsaw Box highlight.
-Incorrect Jigsaw Boxes remain highlighted after being searched.
Not sure I'm entirely satisfied with all of these, but I think this is good enough to at least post.
Comments
-
Bumparoonie, Unca Scrooge!0
-
I actually have no qualms with anything on this list, it seems pretty solid. I really like that all the trap add-ons make the Survivors scream so you'd kind of have a Doctor thing going on which adds to the tension of having traps on, like there should be. I am surprised you didn't add any add-ons for Pig Lunge distance though but your tweaked Lunge sound makes up for it because that roar is completely unnecessary and ruins any chance of using it so I never use it. Amanda's Secret, the Obsession one, does the trap start on or do they need a Gen turned on first?
I would say this is better than most Pig reworks I've seen because you didn't really go overboard and it was all well thought out but simple. I would totally play this and those crouch speed add-ons are bad ass since I crouch most of the time.
0 -
Pig Lunge distance: This is just my opinion, but I think if you make the actual set up for the Ambush better, you don't really need to make the actual dash longer. Maybe I'm wrong, though. Who knows
Amanda's Secret: My thought was to have it start inactive, mainly under the idea that being able to potentially shut someone out of the game from the very start with no real say on their part by having the trap start active wouldn't make for a great experience for that person.
Thank you for the comment. I do appreciate it.
1 -
Ok Amanda's Secret makes sense now, no problem
I know what it's like to feel ignored and overlooked, I really enjoyed reading it.0 -
Approved.
0 -
Thank you.SecretX said:Approved.
Thought I had since re-looking at this whole list again: I might consider switching the names/descriptions of "Amanda's Secret" and "Amanda's Letter". I think it makes more sense for the one that "awakens the senses" to allow Amanda to see Auras and the one that "fills the reader with rage" to involve an Obsession.
My original plan was to scrap Amanda's Secret completely and replace it with an add-on called "Jigsaw's Puppet" (the icon would be the puppet sitting on its signature tricycle) because that would be a better fit to an add-on affecting RBTs than...a black medkit, I guess? Reason I didn't was because I know that license holders have control over the flavor aspects of the character, so I worked under the assumption that they wouldn't give permission to make new material for their character. If they could, it would maybe look something like this:
Jigsaw's Puppet (Very Rare)
A ventriloquist dummy fitted with mechanical parts. It delivers the rules to Jigsaw's deadly games.
-You become obsessed with one Survivor.-Obsession starts the trial wearing a Reverse Bear Trap.1 -
Hey dude interesting views. I don't feel the same as you about all of the points. Here is my reasons below. Would love to discuss
I
1) Managing hook numbers is kinda skill and experience thing. I don’t think a counter should be added.
2) No comment.
II
1) If done correctly ambush hit is a free hit and the noise animation often doesn’t help too much and causes hasty decisions. Survivor is likely to make a mistake in this time anyway. I feel experienced survivors can counter this sometimes but less experienced players will surely take a free hit. I don’t think it would be fair for more free hits. If anything this should be an addon.
2) This is a nerf you because survivors could see more of you.
III
1) I feel this would over power the last survivor because now instead of looking for the hatch they are looking for bare traps which you can see and patrol/ find the hatch. I let the forth guy go if I can’t find them I am way too lazy. This also changes the entire dynamic as all other traps are triggered by gens but this one is triggered by hopes and dreams of the 4k.
2) These should be addons. One of them is. I would change the dynamic that the pig knowing where her boxes are because I get trapped and then tunnelled. First Jigsaw box one though is a pretty crazy one. You may as well decrease the odds but having to waste an entire 30 seconds on a box for free is pretty OP.
IV
I personally feel that bear traps are in a good place for the threat they have in game is very good. They not only are a free mori but the player has to get it off their head or die which wastes time. It feels like her issue is being looped because she doesn’t have any ability to avoid this. If she can start a chase with a hit from stealth she has a good chance of being able to get a pallet trade and she snowballs from there. She has a strong snow ball effect and if you can trap survivors you force them to other objectives. A lot of the addon changes would just make her SUPER annoying to play against you would just make another doctor but instead of madness they would just die. The traps already rattle and beep which helps locate survivors and they have 4 specific points they have to go to and get the trap off; EZ tunnelz.
I like the idea of starting with a bear trap that’s kinda funny and a good addon to slow the pace of the game. But the thing with this is it gives a survivor a ######### game start and they may just DC.
I think something I want on Pig is to be able to sabo bear traps with hard skill checks that decrease the timer because I think this would stop her being able to tunnel. Some addons could then increase skill check difficulty and some addons could then make the tool boxes unable to be sabo’d.
I think she is an okay killer because like The Shape she can snow ball but you have to play to value. Most pigs tunnelled the trapped survivor when they aren’t doing any gens. Why do you thing all these addon changes are needed? What do you find hard about the pig?0 -
Sure, I'm open to discussion. Be prepared for a super wall of text. :P
Part I
1) I think there are definitely areas where things shouldn't be made too easily because they should be seen as a skill-testing thing; I don't think keeping track of who's been hooked how many times is really one of those things. It's just one less thing you need to memorize, and I don't see that as a bad thing in this case.Part II
1) In my opinion, the noise during charge up is a pretty huge drawback to the charge. It gives any not-bad Survivor a pretty big tell that they need to move, and considering that you kinda already need to be hiding in order to properly start charging before they run, you're already at a disadvantage when trying to actually land the hit. When just standing up and running at the Survivors ends up being a more consistently reliable way of surprising them than using the Ambush, I think we have a problem. Considering that Ambush is no good in an actual chase (barring the pretty rare instance of being able to mindgame at a pallet), I think moving the Ambush roar to later in the attack would make the Ambush more worth using.2) I should probably clarify; I simply think the first-person POV should be a bit higher while crouched. I don't want the Pig's model to actually be crouched less.
Part III
1) I admit I could very easily be wrong on this, but considering that the time to search through a Box would be cut by at least half (more if you get + land Skill Checks), I do not think this would overwhelm the Survivors. Sure, the Killer can patrol the boxes, but a Survivor would be at boxes for less time so they can hide more quickly and be able to afford to hide a little more since they're spending less time doing the actual searching. Not to mention that in most cases, the Survivor in question will have likely already spent some time searching for the Key since if they are in this situation, it is probably because the Survivor was busy chasing + hooking someone else. So when they're actually put into this situation, they're will likely already have searched through at least one box.2) I'm aware that the second one is already an add-on, which is the problem. I (and others) believe it should be base-kit. An issue the Pig has (IMO) is that the results for the Reverse Bear Traps can be a bit too swingy. When they're effective, they're good at stalling the game and buying more time. When they're not, they can be close to useless. That second one happens when people are able to quickly get the trap off on the first Box (especially if more than one Survivor on the same team gets the trap off quickly). If we can reduce that without significantly increasing the Traps' kill potential, we can ensure that the traps can be more consistent at buying you time. Also, you're not spending 30 seconds on a box; a box only takes 12 seconds to search through assuming you don't miss any Skill Checks, you don't hit any Great Skill checks, and the Pig isn't using Bag of Gears or Crate of Gears (even if she is using both, a Box would take about 17 seconds to search, definitely not 30). ALSO also, if you're getting trapped and then just straight-tunneled, you're likely dealing with a bad Pig player. IMO, in most cases, A Pig shouldn't be going out of their way to attack a Survivor wearing an RBT unless they happen to cross your path or they think your timer is close-ish to expiring.
Part IV
I think Reverse Bear Traps for the most part are in a decent place. Her add-ons, on the other hand, are not. I would argue that she has WAY too many trash add-ons. Not even "not great", but actual trash. I think saying the traps are free moris is giving them too much credit. Yes, the Pig is the only class to have an insta-kill built into her base kit, but that insta-kill is VERY hard to pull off. And this is no accident: the devs have deliberately designed the RBTs to primarily waste Survivors' time as opposed to actually be able to kill. Yes, she suffers from being looped and not having map pressure and whatnot. Those are downsides that I am accepting are limitations of the Pig. What I'm trying to do is enhance areas of her gameplay that I feel can afford to be safely enhanced. When she gets that first hit with the Ambush, she's kinda just stuck as an M1 killer and is at the mercy of the usual chase shenanigans, for better or worse.I think ALL of the trap penalty add-ons are bad because they run fully counterproductive to the goal of the RBTs. Their abilities are only relevant if you are actively harassing the Survivors wearing RBTs, and if you're doing that, I'd say you're playing Pig wrong. If you're not on top of them, you may as well not be using perks at all (the only arguable exception is the Rusty Attachments, which I feel are just outclassed by Sloppy Butcher). With the scream penalty inflicted, you no longer have to be constantly on top of the Survivors. If they scream and you feel you are close enough to capitalize on it, you can make the attempt to do so. Considering that you'd have to be using add-ons to get the scream ability, you get none of the other benefits of Madness, and a Survivor can mitigate the screaming by crouching some of the time, I think it's an acceptable thing to do. Again, hard-tunneling a Survivor wearing an RBT is generally very counter-intuitive to the Pig's game plan, and the idea is that the screaming will make it so you don't have to go into hard-tunnel mode.
Compare the idea of starting with an RBT on your head to Freddy's Black Box. The game already starts with them penalized, but they are able to free themselves from that penalty in time. Unlike Freddy's Black Box, the Pig won't have super Aura-reading of that Survivor. Sure, the boxes are there, but with the timer not being active, the Survivor is not actually in a rush yet to get the trap off yet and can afford to be sneaky sneaky to get the trap off. If the Pig gets too cheeky with trying to harass the person with the RBT, she's just opening herself up to being wrecked by a gen push (or, with a coordinated SWF team, with 99%ing gens and then popping them all once when the Survivor actually gets the trap off). The Pig has to eventually focus on defending gens and whatnot. PERHAPS I'm wrong on this, but my view is that if a person gets salty and just DCs because they started with a trap on their head, that speaks more about them than about the add-on.
I strongly disagree with the idea of sabotaging Reverse Bear Traps. Heck, I'm against the idea of sabotaging REGULAR bear traps. I am staunchly against the idea of anything that is not a Killer add-on directly affecting a Killer's power. I don't understand this idea of tunneling Survivors with RBTs. That is not a good way to play the Pig IMO. It's just squandering all the time-wasting benefit of the RBTs. Why would a Pig go out of their way to hunt down someone who almost certainly is not working on gens when they could be attacking someone else and have two people distracted? You say that you have to play the Pig to value (which I agree with), but if you're tunneling a Survivor with an RBT, you're doing the opposite of that.
As for why I think all these add-ons need changes, the short is that, as I've said before, too many of them are actual trash in my opinion, but to elaborate a little more:
-Workshop Grease, Razor Wire, and Interlocking Razor are trash IMO because Survivors that aren't bad are not going to have issues hitting those Skill checks (even with Unnerving Presence making those Skill Checks harder), rendering them 99% useless. You may as well be going with no add-ons. When a Rare add-on feels like it may as well be no add-on, that's a problem.
-John's Medical File and Shattered Syringe are both strictly worse than Video Tape (which is only an uncommon), and I don't really like the idea of them being ONLY usable with Video Tape (and even then, that only really applies to John's Medical File; I think Shattered Syringe is just trash). I want there to be more of a reason to use them, and I'd especially want there to be a reason to use them together (technically, the current Jigsaw's Annotated Plan + Tampered Timer has the same problem compared to the current Jigsaw's Sketch, but I don't think there's much that can really be done about that).
-As I said earlier, all of the add-ons that inflict penalties to RBT wearers are trash IMO because they are only relevant (again, ARGUABLY except for Rusty Attachments) when you are hard tunneling the Survivors in question, which defeats the purpose of the RBTs in the first place.
-Unlike other people, I don't actually think Jigsaw's Annotated Plan is trash. BUUUUUT I do think that it doesn't need to have such a steep downside for a Rare. The ONLY reason I could see it adding 30 seconds to the clock instead of 15 seconds is because there's a possibility that it could cause problems when combined with Jigsaw's Sketch if the timer were any lower. This is something that would have to be tested, but my guess is that it is not actually an issue. If Tampered Timer + Crate of Gears or Tampered Timer + Jigsaw's Sketch is considered okay, I think you could get away with 6 boxes and a 2m45s timer. The fact that I think an extra 30 seconds for an extra box is still doable is why I would be okay with moving the current Annotated Plan to Uncommon and making a Rare add-on that only adds 15 seconds.
-I would argue that Amanda's Secret is THE WORST Killer add-on in the game, bar none. It sucks. It SUUUUUCKS. I've said this elsewhere, but the gist is that the upsides it gives are super unreliable, and the penalty of taking away the Box auras for the Pig is significant. There will be times where you actually do want to try and patrol Jigsaw Boxes a bit while you're making your way to gens, but if you can't track where they might be, you can't do that. It is basically a net-nerf for the Pig, which I think is ridiculous.
-I don't think Rules Set No. 2 as it currently is is worth the Ultra Rare add-on status. It does do SOMETHING, but that something isn't huge. This is where the argument for making it base-kit comes from. It's a quality-of-life improvement that makes the Reverse Bear Traps better at stalling for time but isn't really worth taking away an add-on slot (and certainly not worth 7000 bloodpoints to very rarely have access to).
-I think the downsides of Amanda's Letter are overkill. Compare it to the Wraith's "All-Seeing - Blood" add-on (which is not even an Ultra Rare). Both give the Killer aura-reading of 12 meters when using their stealth powers. HOWEVER:
1) The Wraith turns virtually invisible when stealthing, while the Pig just crouches down.
2) The Wraith moves FASTER when cloaked, while the Pig is SLOWER when crouched.
3) The Wraith has numerous add-ons that can be paired with "All-Seeing - Blood" to mitigate the warning the Wraith gives when he rings his bell to un-cloak; the Pig has only two add-ons to be paired with "Amanda's Letter" that do such a thing (and given what I've said about John's Medical File vs. Video Tape, she may as well only have one). Yes, you can use "Last Will", but that doesn't actually make Amanda's stealthing any better; it just mitigates the significant downside "Amanda's Letter" imposes.All-Seeing - Blood can at least be used on most maps without it feeling too useless, but Amanda's Letter suffers in a similar way that Michael Myers's "Scratched Mirror" and "Vanity Mirror" add-ons do, in that their utility is severely hampered unless you're playing on either The Game or Léry's Memorial Institute. One COULD make the argument that Amanda's Letter shouldn't be on the same level as All-Seeing - Blood because the Pig effectively has two powers (crouch+ambush and Reverse Bear Traps), but I would say that the differences listed above are enough reason to argue that removing the downsides on Amanda's Letter would not lead to it being overpowered in any way. Also, removing the downsides on Amanda's Letter has the added benefit of reducing the chances of an unfun scenario for an unlucky Survivor. With only two Boxes, a Survivor has a 50/50 chances of getting their trap off on the first box. If they DON'T, the Pig can just sit in front of the other Box and completely screw over that Survivor. Is it beneficial to the Pig? Not really. Is it something the Pig can do to make that Survivor miserable? Absolutely. With Last Will, the Pig can do this twice.
1 -
OOOH nice. Ill have to reply later because i dont have time to tackle this hahaha!
0 -
@Nea_Death_Experience said:
OOOH nice. Ill have to reply later because i dont have time to tackle this hahaha!I spent a LONG time writing that and freely admit that I put way too much thought into that, so I would not fault you if you didn't feel like replying to it. :P
1 -
@TAG said:
@Nea_Death_Experience said:
OOOH nice. Ill have to reply later because i dont have time to tackle this hahaha!I spent a LONG time writing that and freely admit that I put way too much thought into that, so I would not fault you if you didn't feel like replying to it. :P
I was going to reply to Nea but you literally covered everything lol I was low-key getting triggered but then you cleared everything up so I don't need to add anything. I really hope Pig gets a huge tweak like the other Killers did after Freddy gets his, Pig has so many unfair problems and she's so fun and I hate that I never use Ambush because of the roar so I'm only ever using half of her abilities which is bullshit.
0 -
Bro I would love your feed back on this post. Disregard my noed rant. I basicly feel killers shouldnt need noed to get kills so I am mainly interested in the changes to blood lust to stop looping.
Let me know what you think
0 -
Bro I would love your feed back on this post. Disregard my noed rant. I basicly feel killers shouldnt need noed to get kills so I am mainly interested in the changes to blood lust to stop looping.
Let me know what you think
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/49113/noed-endgame-changes-survivor-and-killer-prospective#latest0 -
I don't see the point of tally's, but i'll give you the points.
I'll agree with you on this one, though instead of adjusting her crouch height, maybe she can have an adjusted FOV/ camera to assist in her not having 50% of the screen covered by F***ing grass.
If this is to happen, The Pig's ability to see Jigsaw Boxes needs to be removed upon the third survivor dying/ leaving the match. Also, can we all agree that searching should be more difficult? skill checks are too easy across the board, maybe since Amanda likes to break the rules, Box search skill checks have a X% chance to go in reverse, increasing with the gears add-ons?
Synchronized Timer encourages Pig's to camp boxes if the timer is almost up, not good. The point of the RBT is encourage NOT tunneling the survivor who is carrying it. By forcing the survivor to make noise with it on, what is your average killer gonna do? move towards the loud noise indicator. I propose a different approach to this.
these are buffs along with what the perk already does
Utility Blade: Healing Skill Check success zones on a survivor with a RBT are Considerably reduced.Face Mask: Skill checks attempted with a RBT have Considerably reduced success zones.
Slow-Release Toxin: Once the trap is removed, Exhaustion perks are disabled for an additional 10 seconds for every 30 seconds spent with the RBT on. (applies until the next time an Exhaustion perk is available for use)
Rusty Attachments: (same as Utility Blade)
that should make things more skill based and should pressure survivors to be more careful with their actions.
0 -
Your comments are appreciated.Mat_Sella said:I don't see the point of tally's, but i'll give you the points.
I'll agree with you on this one, though instead of adjusting her crouch height, maybe she can have an adjusted FOV/ camera to assist in her not having 50% of the screen covered by F***ing grass.
If this is to happen, The Pig's ability to see Jigsaw Boxes needs to be removed upon the third survivor dying/ leaving the match. Also, can we all agree that searching should be more difficult? skill checks are too easy across the board, maybe since Amanda likes to break the rules, Box search skill checks have a X% chance to go in reverse, increasing with the gears add-ons?
Synchronized Timer encourages Pig's to camp boxes if the timer is almost up, not good. The point of the RBT is encourage NOT tunneling the survivor who is carrying it. By forcing the survivor to make noise with it on, what is your average killer gonna do? move towards the loud noise indicator. I propose a different approach to this.
these are buffs along with what the perk already does
Utility Blade: Healing Skill Check success zones on a survivor with a RBT are Considerably reduced.Face Mask: Skill checks attempted with a RBT have Considerably reduced success zones.
Slow-Release Toxin: Once the trap is removed, Exhaustion perks are disabled for an additional 10 seconds for every 30 seconds spent with the RBT on. (applies until the next time an Exhaustion perk is available for use)
Rusty Attachments: (same as Utility Blade)
that should make things more skill based and should pressure survivors to be more careful with their actions.
1) It's mostly just to remove some memory issues with regards to who to put the trap on and who not to. It's a bit of a feel-bad when you forget that you've hooked someone twice already and put a trap on them, only for you to realize you wasted the trap when they immediately die on the hook. Admittedly, of everything I mentioned on this list, this is probably the thing I care about the least.
2) Eh, sure, why not. To be fair, I mainly put that one on the list because I've heard people suggest it and I was like "sure, that seems reasonable."
3a) Perhaps I am mistaken, but I don't see how that would affect much, personally. If you can't memorize the general box locations after having the box auras around for basically the whole match, what were you doing? But let's say for the sake of this discussion that I'm not necessarily opposed to that suggestion.
3b) Maybe? I think if the object is to make Skill Checks naturally tougher, it should be done across the board, not just on only the Boxes. Also, if the Skill Checks actually legitimately become challenging, the death timers might need to be adjusted to compensate. Not sure if people would be okay with that. I only speak for myself, but while I'm not looking to make the RBTs super efficient at killing (despite what my proposed changes to the RBTs on the Hatch might imply :P ), I would hate for the "death traps" to all-around become WORSE at killing.
4) My POV is that what you argue is already possible without being able to see the death timers. I admit that what I'm about to say is gonna sound really silly, but please bear with me on this: this could be accomplished by having someone sit next to you with a stopwatch (or by being able to multitask with your own stopwatch). It's like a deck tracker for a digital card game. It sure makes things easier, but you could accomplish the same with a paper and pen. The point is that if someone REAAAAALLY wants to keep track of a timer, they can already make it happen (to a point). Even ignoring that, it is not difficult to notice when someone's had the trap on their head for a suspiciously long time and look for them to see if the timer beeps actually confirm your suspicion. Sure, being able to see the timer would make that more efficient, but I personally don't believe that this is the straw that breaks the camel's back.
As for your ideas for the RBT penalty add-ons, I'm kinda 50/50. I actually quite like the Slow-Release Toxin idea because it actually makes the perk not a waste if you're not completely tunneling the Survivor in question, and I think the Face Mask idea is cute for the cheesy Meme Pig build (at the very least, I think that one add-on alone would be better for the Meme Pig build than Razor Wire and Interlocking Razor together). I don't think the other two ideas are gonna be that useful, though, especially if someone else heals the RBT player instead (which I assume would cause the Skill Check reductions to not apply).
0 -
I've posted about it before, but I'm a firm believer that things like Amanda's Letter and other 'play style' changing add-ons need to be more common for the sake of more diverse gameplay. Along with a bit of a buff, because right now the only way to really make AL work is to like you said, play on a really small map like Lery's or The Game.
0
