Pallet density - the new Boogeyman
Just getting slightly ahead of this because I see the content creator echo chamber starting to ramp up. How long do you guys think it'll be before pallet counts are nerfed to be even lower than they were before the change? That has been a clearly identifiable pattern over the past few patches.
- Something new or beneficial for survivors gets suggested or pushed to the PTB or live.
- Then there's a bunch of YouTube videos released practically simultaneously complaining that the new feature makes it harder to win or equally easy to win but less fun.
- Then a bunch of forum posts crop up echoing their favorite killer content creators.
- BHVR releases a patch not just reverting their change but actually making it worse than it was in the first place for the survivor role.
As a player who goes where queue times are lowest I play plenty of solo queue survivor. That being the case I can only say this - stop trying to help us. It would be great if you could, but clearly that isn't how things are going to work out and having little bits of hope or little bits of enjoyment yanked back like a yoyo is worse than just not having them there in the first place.
I'm placing my bet now - when they revert this due to killer complaints there are going to be less pallets on each map than there were before the change even went live. Possibly excluding Haddonfield because it would be hard to make that map worse than it was in the first place.
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You are saying like all content creators are people who just play killer without ever touching survivor ever, LOL.
The pallet density wasn't just Quality of Life, it was a straight up buff in maps that didn't need that. Adding more pallets to already strong maps like Crotus Asylum is madness as the map were strong enough.
Now maps like Haddonfield did deserved that change. But applying that to almost every realm in the game was a lazy solution and created more problems than it solved.
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I feel on its point now, it’s an attempt to blame some group here again?
Is it forbidden to complain on indeed problematic stuff?Is it really a fault of content creators that devs instead of thoughtful reconsideration just blindly kill everything most of the time?
Neither content creators nor those expressing their opinions directly contributed to these decisions. It's entirely the developers' responsibility to prefer extreme changes and endless crunch.Don’t mess consequences with actual causes
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Who cares if the phrase 'quality of life' is used or not? That's labeling or phrasing used on a patch note - it doesn't mean anything. The change is the change regardless of what they call it. What if they didn't call it quality of life - would that make any difference whatsoever? AFK crows don't have anything to do with being AFK anymore.
Eliminating dead zones - yes, that is one thing they mentioned. That doesn't mean it's the exhaustive list of things they intended to affect with this change. They are not obligated to give us the entire string of reasoning behind every change they make.
The only point these 2 'arguments' make is that they should release the most dry patch notes possible with zero explanation for anything because unless they can completely explain everything then the community is going to use their incompleteness against them in meaningless arguments. I mention both these things together because they're another thing YouTubers are bring up as 'gotchas' that actually mean nothing.
Who says certain maps are strong enough - a Ghostface playing on them? Great - does the community pinky promise to never bring a Blight, Kaneki, or Krasue to them?
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And they all conveniently forget to mention the main building nerfs, maps shrunk, and jungle gym tiles replaced with new trash loops. All changes to help killers but the only thing that is ever mentioned is the few extra rock loops. Who wants to bet they remove the extra pallets and keep all the other map nerfs? Another QoL for killers only!
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People were already talking about how overtuned this change was before content creators did, it was just buried under Krasue complaints.
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Pretty much. They've made maps the size of postage stamps compared to what they used to be like, handed out aura reads like candy, brightened everything, swapped a good amount of jungle gyms with unsafe trash, made generators spawn in the middle of nothing but maybe a tee-pee or a couple of barrels, and bunched all survivor spawns together in a spot so predictable that lethal pursuer is purely redundant and only useful for aura time extension.
Some killers just forgot there was a point where they had do something more than hold W for a 10 to 20 seconds to get a kill.
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I personally wonder how much is psychological. 2v8 had even more pallet spam, and sure, SOME killers got small chase buffs, but were otherwise perkless, had no add-ons (the buffs are basically a stand-in for them), and there were zero complaints about survivors being hard to down.
I suspect that if you want to be charitable, it's a function of it having a different feel when you can walk 10 feet and find multiple survivors and always staying in chase vs having the down time of hooking, wandering the map, worrying about gens, struggling to find a survivor, and THEN having to actually chase.
But I also feel like it needs to be pointed out that this is a major indirect nerf to camping and tunnelling, because it's significantly harder to create deadzones and then isolate a survivor on a hook of your choice where there aren't resources that they're actually able to get to and use within 10 seconds while a killer is riding their ass.
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I'm sorry but this really does sound like another typical "Us vs them" argument that holds absolutely zero ground. Before you say "oh you play purely killer you have no way" I have Ellen Ripley at p100 and currently playing Orela but I'm a mix between both sides as I enjoy both sides. But this patch has been absolutely atrocious and I feel like when I play killer (Springtrap and Xenomorph so no, not S or A tier killers) I'm playing pallet simulator since my MMR is high and I play survivor teams that know what they're doing and run pallet to pallet to pallet to pallet no matter how strong or weak the loop is, there is another pallet nearby.
As survivor I feel like my hand is being held as I braindead run pallet to pallet (without WoO imagine that) as it is the most effective gameplay to extend chase and by the time killer actually downs me, 3 gens are popped and 2 others are being worked on (these are games against A and S tier killers like Krasue, Ghoul, and Drac). I feel absolutely no risk wasting resources as a majority of the maps I load into had so many damn pallets.
You forget to mention that the people who talk about this are also survivor and dual mains who are expressing their frustration that competent survivors have been buffed and there is no risk wasting resources which teaches bad habits to loop, drop pallet, wait for break or run to another pallet 3 meters away from you.
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The overall tone here is so dismissive and wildly assumptive. While they may revert back to previous versions of pallet density at some point, they will not make it worse than it was because their intent was always to buff, not nerf. BHVR put surveys out around a year ago asking for input on which maps needed help and I guess that's their fault for listening to the community and buffing both maps that did and didn't need it because they wanted to make the community happy THAT ASKED FOR IT.
I also play 50/50 survivor and killer and I don't think it's wrong to say at all that there are maps that definitely did not need this change. Dismissing people's issue with those overly buffed maps as "jumping on the echo chamber bandwagon" sounds more like an ego trip than the actual discourse that we should strive for in these forums.
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I don't think they should make the pallet count less than how it was before, but it is NOT okay as it is right now in any capacity. We're getting 2018-tier setups across basically every map.
My complaints aren't echoing a content creator either, I don't watch patch note summaries or take my opinions from whoever's popular, they're based on my experience in the game. All opinions are my own, etc etc.
Trying to label any opinion that doesn't match yours as purely "echoing their favorite killer content creators" is kind of a fallacy.
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Lol every killer reply still completely ignoring the update parts that were buffs for them. So we're keeping the shrunken maps with nerfed main buildings AND taking all the pallets away? Feels balanced.
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Less deadzones? Good!
More fillers? Good!
Filler into jungle gym into Shack? Very bad!
The tile chaining is the real issue here. Having a trillion fillers has messed up the generation I think.
AND THERES STILL DEADZONES.
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Hopefully they change it as you can carry games simply by running Windows in most cases with some of the absurd tile set-ups.
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The weird thing about the pallets is that, though I find the hold-W-while-using-Windows thing annoying, it's not actually affecting the outcome of my matches. But "annoying" seems to be enough to get anything survivor-sided nerfed.
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People don't necessarily need to hold w and pre-drop.
They can still play/loop any pallets that allow it and pre-drop any that do not.
It provides extra opportunities to waste additional time.
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Sure, that's the point of having pallets, but countering it is also part of the game. Many of these new pallets are outrageously unsafe too and are basically free downs if the survivor chooses them to loop. I think that's kinda the trade off, especially if you're using Windows instead of common sense and just running to any nearby pallet aura. A good deal of these pallets are so weak that when someone drops I just go around. They're not even a hindrance. For every person using them smartly, there's some idiot predeopping them and thinking it's magically going to stop the killer.
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I generally assume people are playing well/properly when trying to discuss balance.
I'm personally using double wolf add-ons, brutal strength/fire-up on Wraith with Pain-Res and Pop - I can't imagine how miserable these set-ups would be on say, Trapper.
My games on my mains usually involve people clinging to gens and only leaving/saving when necessary, generally with decent/event items.
They're all very capable of playing tiles correctly and decent macro, as they should be, given my playtime.
If the counter is that someone else may be playing poorly, I don't think I'll have much more to say.
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So the game balance should only account for its best and most longtime players? The lower brackets of MMR should just adjust to whatever works for the upper tiers? A lot of people play this game and most aren't high skill. It should be that what works for one tier works for another, but since matchmaking is terrible, it's hard to figure out what that answer is. And that's the problem with the forum, most of us aren't moderate players who just play a few rounds a week.
I'm currently using Dredge with half aura read, no gen regress, no pallet break speed up and I get mostly good players with meta perks and styptics, syringes, and BNPs, and I'm not struggling because of pallets. I'd be curious to know if anyone has seen a substantial dip in their KRs due directly to pallets because I've yet to see someone show an 70% overall that dropped to 60% in the 30 day stats or something similar, while stating pallets as the reason. Are they actually affecting balance, or are they just like Fog Vials—a nuisance on the path to victory.
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It's a pretty obvious issue that affects all levels of gameplay.
Here's a pretty wide spread of replies:
https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/1od891v/pallet_density_feedback/
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Pretty much the pallet density update made haddonfield good map but many maps dodnt need that and as you said in reality it worked the way that it put more pallets to loops and locations where pallets are already creating pallet safe heavens that are nightmare for many killers especialy m1 killers.
Just some loop on pale roose there is short on YouTube from remy or what is she called (female spirit main she was in hens chucky vs spirit video) which shows how busted some loops are.
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I find it so funny the complaints about the pallets. You can barely tell the difference from before these so called buffs. Especially since so many killer perks counter pallets.
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We could just go between what we have and what we had before in terms of pallets, just need a little less around the map. The Asylum main building doesn't need every single one of it's god pallets present every time.
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Yes, based on past changes you would be correct. BHVR have a tendency to swing from one extreme to the next. Main buildings were nerfed for survivors on some maps in compensation, and even if pallet density is reverted, those changes will likely stick around.
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The pallet update was designed to be nerfed in my opinion.
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